A call around again... Lever Cap Screws for Infills..

[David Weaver]

Is anyone making them now?

I don't mean like the ones you can get from mcmaster carr for $10, I already have a couple of those. If they were brass, I'd be OK with them, but they're not. I mean reasonably elegant ones, cut from solid brass tastefully.

Johnny Kleso was making them for a while, and I've gotten one with the purchase of a roughed lever cap from an unmentioned source :D I know he's gotten too busy, anyway.

I would like to transition to making my own lever caps, though, so I can have a little more control on shape and design. However, I'm not keen on going to the trouble of spending 5 hours shaping a lever cap to put a steel screw in it.

So, does anyone make them? I wouldn't be opposed to paying fair price for them, but if it's clear they won't be available, I guess I'll start looking at getting a lathe, and I really don't want several hundred pounds of lathe to park in the shop to make a few lever cap screws :(

[Jonathan McCullough]

Have you tried lighting fixture stores?

[David Weaver]

You know, I don't know if that will bear any fruit, but that's a smart idea!

[george wilson]

What diameter and what thread would you want them?

[David Weaver]

George, really anything reasonable, I guess in the 3/8 range for the bolt and somewhere in the 7/8" range for the head. I would have to guess that's about where the screws I'm using are. I don't know how many threads per inch, but anything I can find a tap for is fair game.

I can get cast lever caps cheaply, they are just rough castings and then I have plenty of freedom about the rest of the specs and how I shape them.

[george wilson]

How many do you need? These have to largely be freehand turned if I want to make the fancy type cap screws with the raised heads ending in a ball. Like this type.

[David Weaver]

George, I don't know if I'd count on someone else for that amount of work (the hand work), just because that's asking a lot, though they certainly look better than most lever cap screws I've seen - they have the "old" look, if you know what i mean, like you can tell a person was involved in them.

Just a brass screw threaded with a head that's either knurled or could be knurled by some self-punishing individual who thought they'd like to try checkering files to do it.

It seems like a simple issue, I was kind of surprised that there is nowhere on all of google that you can just find stock knurled brass bolts in several sizes, but I guess nobody else would use one that large other than planemakers.

Four or five of them would keep me busy for a couple of years, I probably have the capacity to make two planes a year and still enjoy it.

[george wilson]

Yes,I understand the "OLD" look,since I made them that way!:):):)

Brass isn't too cheap these days. I still have some leftovers from years ago,but after that I'm paying market plus shipping.

I don't have real WIDE knurls in the ROPE or microscope type that can do something like the 1/2" or so wide edge of a knurl. I had to hand file that wide with checkering files. The edges could be made by putting on,say 3 rows of convex rope knurls side by side. That would look nice. I just refuse to use modern diamond knurls,though they actually did have them back in the 18th.C.. I had a chance to buy some original knurls with that type included. They were too corroded in spots,though.

Still,the diamond type just doesn't make it esthetically.

I might could make 1 or 2 for now,but I really need to get that new guitar done,plus the work I am doing for my steady customer. I don't like to keep her waiting too long.

[Mike Ruggeri]

Not exactly what you are looking for but you might find this helpful as it shows how to make the bolt using relatively common hardware store items.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Making%20Lever%20Caps%20and%20Lever%20Cap%20Screws %20in%20the%20Backyard.html

[george wilson]

Is that Derek's work? I saw the post where those were made out of stuff like watering hose nozzles(?) and other bits and pieces,stuffed with wood. Clever use of found material. Even if you have a lathe,the old knurls are terribly hard to find,except I left a post on how to make them by running them against rotating taps.

[David Weaver]

George, not trying to corner you or anyone into promising to make them, even on a fair compensated basis, I think you probably have plenty of other things on your plate and you might be old enough that you should make whatever you want, not what other people want from you!

I do think for someone who has more time than you and who has a lathe, though, there is enough market out there for one guy to do it and make a dozen a month.

I would guess, if they're made out of 360 brass (something you might be against, i don't know enough about brass alloys to comment on appropriateness), that the price for the brass is about $13 a foot right now for someone buying it off of amazon or from SmallParts. Could you get four out of a foot?

I think someone would have to make a bunch of them to make it worth their while. Charging what people would pay for them and selling one at a time and dealing with the hassle of making and shipping is probably not worth it.

I have no idea what other peoples' tolerance would be for one (price wise) like what shows up on a brese plane, with three rows of knurling, but I think the mcmaster steel ones are already like $7 or $11 or something. I know what i'd pay, but I'm not going to say it out loud.

[David Weaver]

Not exactly what you are looking for but you might find this helpful as it shows how to make the bolt using relatively common hardware store items.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Making%20Lever%20Caps%20and%20Lever%20Cap%20Screws %20in%20the%20Backyard.html

I saw that, and I'd go that route on a plane where I wasn't thinking so hard, but I'm kinda hoping for a no-compromises thing at this point - one piece solid.

I don't have machine tools, just a drill press (and next plane that I use with that will be the first one where I have a drill press - just used a cordless drill before), a belt sander and a disc sander, and that's all I use to make planes other than hand tools. I want to get the details right and ramp up the aesthetics.

[george wilson]

PM me what you could pay,David. The7/8" is $41.78 for 3' + shipping. Actually,that's less than I thought.

360 is about the only thing brass rod is made of these days. No objection,but for your info,never try to use lead solder on it. It doesn't like lead. Use lead free.

I hate using modern V threads on my planes,but I'd have to make a special tap for you,and it would get more complicated. I always make my own special taps that look about like Acme taps to get the right look into the cap screws. I'm not particular,or anything like that!!:)

Maybe I'll go and make 1 and see how long it actually takes. CAN YOU DO THE FINAL POLISHING? That would cut down on my time. Put them in your drill press and spin them against wet or dry.

[David Weaver]

PM me what you could pay,David. The7/8" is $41.78 for 3' + shipping. Actually,that's less than I thought.

360 is about the only thing brass rod is made of these days. No objection,but for your info,never try to use lead solder on it. It doesn't like lead. Use lead free.

I hate using modern V threads on my planes,but I'd have to make a special tap for you,and it would get more complicated. I always make my own special taps that look about like Acme taps to get the right look into the cap screws. I'm not particular,or anything like that!!:)

Maybe I'll go and make 1 and see how long it actually takes. CAN YOU DO THE FINAL POLISHING? That would cut down on my time. Put them in your drill press and spin them against wet or dry.

Yeah, polishing is no issue. It may be that I should stop being such a weenie and try to make a fixture to turn them on my wood late with a chuck, and then thread them (with the lathe off, just turning it by hand) with a threading tool

I would love acme threads, too, but when I talked to raney about that, at my level of planemaking (and this is just to see if I can make a plane that looks nice, not one to sell), it doesn't really matter that much. I always take extra care to tune the lever cap and bed to be flush with the iron on both edges and the top of the bed where the lever cap screw is, so not much tension is required to keep the iron in place.

I don't even have any idea where you get something to tap acme threads, anyway, and it's likely that the cost of doing such a thing would way way outweigh the need for a couple of brass bolts.

Silver solder works fine on 360 brass, right?

[george wilson]

Heres a quick and dirty one I turned out. 3/8-16 thd.,1" length of thread. 7/8" dia. Needs polishing.

Not the greatest one I ever made,but will polish up nice. I need to work on the shape of the head a but more. Just knocked this one out.

If I had enough of these to warrant making a form cutting tool to do the curvy elements,I could facilitate it better. The magnification makes it look rougher than it is. It needs polishing. Best to look at the thumbnail without magnifying it. I broke in 1 of my knurls on it. Used it for the first time.

Silver solder is o.k..

[john brenton]

nice little "pip" on that one.


Hee' a quick and dirty one I turned out. 3/8-16 thd.,1" length of thread. 7/8" dia. Needs polishing.

Not the greatest one I ever made,but will polish up nice.

If I had enough of these to warrant making a form cutting tool to do the curvy elements,I could facilitate it better. The magnification makes it look rougher than it is. It needs polishing. Best to look at the thumbnail without magnifying it. I broke in 1 of my knurls on it. Used it for the first time.

[Raney Nelson]

Hi David,

Acme taps are about $50 apiece. They work fine, but the bigger problem with acme is that it takes several orders of magnitude longer to thread than just using a die and standard universal threads. I'm very slow compared to someone like Johnny, but it takes me most of an hour just to single-point turn acme threads. I thought very hard about making these for sale, but the truth is that I sincerely doubt the market would bear what I'd have to charge to make it worth taking time away.

If George is willing to turn some, I'd take him up on it as it's just not possible to get the sorts of knurling he does in any other way. Having said all that, though -- I have quite a few of the screws I bought from Johnny left. I wont be using them, so you could have a few for $8 each plus shipping. I have a half-dozen or so 5/16-18 (good for smaller stuff) and a few 7/16-14 as well. I know I have at least a few in 360, and also some of the smaller ones in both stainless and 932 bronze. If you let me know what you'd want, I'll check the exact specs and sizes for you.

Easiest if you drop me an email (raney at daedtoolworks.com). I'm pretty irregular about checking in here for PMs...

raney

[george wilson]

I thought the taps were more like $100.00 each. Is that a Chinese one? Haven't looked in a while. I got a good collection some time ago. I make my own for special needs,anyway.

I've decided to re contour this cap screw. Will re-post it when done.

[Raney Nelson]

George,

McMaster has them in the $50 and up range - though you may be right that they're often closer to $100 -- depends on sizes.

I'm not 100% sure where they're made, but I really don't think they're chinese. McM doesn't carry a whole lot of these things in import versions, and if there is a big price discrepancy (which usually indicates an import and US/EUR version) I always spend more. I like to use my tools more than once.

That knurling is gorgeous.

edit - just found the reference to turning knurls from a 4-flute tap. Very smart idea.

[David Weaver]

Hi David,

Acme taps are about $50 apiece. They work fine, but the bigger problem with acme is that it takes several orders of magnitude longer to thread than just using a die and standard universal threads. I'm very slow compared to someone like Johnny, but it takes me most of an hour just to single-point turn acme threads. I thought very hard about making these for sale, but the truth is that I sincerely doubt the market would bear what I'd have to charge to make it worth taking time away.

If George is willing to turn some, I'd take him up on it as it's just not possible to get the sorts of knurling he does in any other way. Having said all that, though -- I have quite a few of the screws I bought from Johnny left. I wont be using them, so you could have a few for $8 each plus shipping. I have a half-dozen or so 5/16-18 (good for smaller stuff) and a few 7/16-14 as well. I know I have at least a few in 360, and also some of the smaller ones in both stainless and 932 bronze. If you let me know what you'd want, I'll check the exact specs and sizes for you.

Easiest if you drop me an email (raney at daedtoolworks.com). I'm pretty irregular about checking in here for PMs...

raney

Raney - I'll send you an email. I'm really trying to avoid ever buying a metal lathe - at least until I know i'm somewhere permanent and have the room, so if george makes a couple for sale, and I take some of your old stock off your hands, all the better - it'll put me that far ahead on really the only piece of the plane I can't do by hand.

I think you are right about trying to come up with an hour plus (for packing, etc) of your time and charging for it. People want things, but they don't necessarily want to pay for them. I have no qualms about putting $400+ worth of material into a good plane (i haven't had to pay that much yet, just because I've gotten good deals on wood), but I would imagine a lot of people do. It's such a rewarding thing to produce that it's hard to describe - i get far more thrill out of it than furniture.

[Raney Nelson]

David,

the more important 'truth' is that I just have limited time, and I like making planes much much more than making LC screws. I make a batch when I need to, but the idea of doing them more often for sale just doesn't appeal at all, even if I could make money at it.

I think you're in Pittsburgh area, no? It might be worth your time to look around at the local machinist community for a good manual machinist who's okay with piecework. Lots of retired guys out there who have a lifetime of solid skill and experience who still like to take interesting projects on in their spare time. Turning screws like these is a toddle for an old hand on a decent toolroom lathe.

[george wilson]

I re contoured the cap screw. I had gotten into a contest with myself to see how quick I could make the screw. This new contour is more like it.

I like to make the top curves swoop down next to the knurl(actually BELOW knurl level) like in the plane I just posted above. Takes me a minute to"get back into it".

[Raney Nelson]

cripes that's fast. What do you use for a lathe, George? And are you profiling with a round-nosed HSS blank or something else?

[george wilson]

It was freehand so any lathe would do that had a chuck. My best and most used lathe is a Hardinge HLVH. I just put a horizontal bar into the tool holder,to rest hand turning tools on. I made them out of 1/4" square W1.

[Raney Nelson]

It was freehand so any lathe would do that had a chuck. My best and most used lathe is a Hardinge HLVH. I just put a horizontal bar into the tool holder,to rest hand turning tools on. I made them out of 1/4" square W1.

OK, I'm not even commenting on the HLVH. Jealousy is so mild a term. I was thinking two things with the lathe question, which is that I'd like a collet closer (I'm a bit surprised you do this in a chuck) and the other that the bearings on my old 10" logan make it really hard to get that smooth undercut inside the knurl with any but the absolute lightest cuts. It takes me a good bit of time, and I usually do it with a toolpost mounted cutter. I have been meaning to make up some gravers for this sort of thing, but I need to be able to do them in stainless as well and I'm not sure how well they work in really hard materials. Guess I should get around to it sooner.

Do you freehand in harder steels too? Inconel, even?

[george wilson]

I haven't used my W1 cutters in stainless. I make old style things,and don't like stainless personally. You should go buy some 1/4" square X 6" long HSS cutter blanks and make up some tools with handles. I ought to do that myself,actually! Except,I need to be able to file to shape some tools before hardening. The ball tool was made by using a small endmill applied at an angle to get clearance,then hardened and drawn to med. straw.

If you don't have collets,you could make a steel sleeve to hold the threaded end of your cap screws in. Just slit the sleeve. I have only had collets in the past several years. All the planes I posted,now in the FAQ section,were made on a 12" Atlas,or a 10" Jet with ordinary chucks. You won't hurt the screws held in a sleeve in your 3 jaw chuck.

[Raney Nelson]

George,

I have collets - but I run them in a Bison 5c chuck. A closer is a luxury I think often about, but my spindle won't handle 5c and I'd rather not mess with 3at or MT collets.

Not suggesting you need an HLVH for good work. I'd be in real trouble if so. Just suggesting I'd like to have one.

[george wilson]

My 16" lathe is a cheap Grizzly. I bought it in 1986,and it has done everything I needed it to do. I used to only have it,and did a lot of nice work on it with no collets at all. I do have all the 5C collets from 1/64" to 1 1/8" with the HLVY. For the 16" I have collet chuck that uses much larger collets. Can't recall their model now,as I've only used the HLVH for some time.

The HLVH is quite a tall lathe. I am tall,and it helps my back to be able to use the HLVH. I don't know why they made it so tall. Some people have to stand on a riser to use it.

Some years ago I was fortunate to get the HLVH cheap. It is a 1964. I messed with fixing it up off and on for 3 years.

[Bill Houghton]

and maybe not as period as you'd like; but the price is right.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/hardware/page.aspx?cat=3,43576,61995,61644&p=61644

[Rick Markham]

David, I believe your "unnamed source" uses 8-32 threads (if my memory serves me correctly) Don't hold me to it... Please!

This is one of the exact reasons I am saving for a metal lathe... It's frustrating trying to find something that is so specialty like this. I do like Derek Cohen's solution... If I ever get off my butt (and don't have any homework) I might give that a shot for my "in progress" Infill plane. Let us know if you come up with a supplier...

I know what I am willing to pay, I also am not willing to share that information in a public forum (Don't want to shoot myself in the foot)

Though at this point it's looking like a $3000 lathe and the time spent to learn machining, and valuable space in my tiny shop area. The machining part/ learning part interests me greatly... the $3000, and loss of shop space isn't terribly exciting to me!

[Raney Nelson]

Rick - $3k is much much higher than you really need to go. I watched craigslist for quite a while looking for what I wanted, but solid 9-10" bench lathes are readily available for well under $1k all day. Mine was about half that and serves my needs just fine. Of course, the tooling is usually going to add up to much more than the lathe itself - I imagine I've spent at least 4 or 5 times what I spent on the lathe upgrading the chucks, adding collets, better toolpost, etc etc; all of that will last my lifetime, though, even if I change lathes so it's worth it to me.

btw - the 8-32 threads you're thinking of are the pivot screws that tie the lever caps to the sidewalls, not the lever cap screws themselves - that's a rather miniscule thread for a lever cap screw. ;)

The lever cap screws themselves are pretty universally between 5/16 and 1/2. I don't think you'll find much of anything outside that range that's not out of proportion with everything else on the plane.

[george wilson]

Finding a machinist is one thing,but finding one with a good sense of design is entirely another matter even if you give him exact drawings,when it comes to anything with artistic curves.

[Rick Markham]

Raney, I ended up thinking of the bolts he uses to fasten the sides to the sole. My memory is pretty dang good, but not flawless... thanks for the heads up ;)
George has done a good amount of mentoring me on choosing a lathe for what I wish to do with it, I don't know nearly enough about used machines to pick out one that isn't going to be a total money pit for me... craiglist in my area is not too super rich in good machines for sale, most are off brands/hobbiest machines or are 3000lb industrial machines I don't have the room or means to keep at the house. Ultimately I need one small enough to fit, but sturdy enough and precise enough to turn tool steel. Since space is a premium for me, it needs to be robust enough for the future with a big enough swing (12"), since there will be no room for a small and a larger lathe. (I'm the buy once kinda guy too)

George, I have no doubt in that fact. The artistic side of machining is probably a very very very small portion of that community. Which is one of the reasons that I personally am interested in learning it, I have a fairly artistic streak going for me, and I feel like it would be a worthwhile adventure for me, I think it would lend itself well to my other artistic endeavors as well. In the meantime I have a whole lot of saving left to do... which gives me time to think about all of it LOL

[David Weaver]

Yeah, lever cap screws only. The only other two screws will be in the sides of the lever cap with heads slightly less tall than the thickness of the sides, and I'm sure mcmaster will have something I can use for those.

At this point, I only have interest in attaching bottom and sides with dovetails. It's a very enjoyable process where once you mark pins and tails and baseline, you can do a lot of work by hand - fitting and such. Filing the pins and tails to fit and peining them is probably one of the three most satisfying parts of building the plane.

(the other two being the final fit of the infill and the final fit of the iron to the bed, lever cap and mouth, and what you get to do with the plane as a result of that fit).

Lapping tool steel sides and bottom by hand would be the least, but the result is pleasing.

Aside from the lever cap screw, I'm convinced people can build these by hand quite well and in good taste (and fairly cheaply), and the next smoother I start after i'm done with the current one, I think I'll document step by step from the point of view of someone with minimal tools - I haven't used any power tools other than a sander and a cordless drill - not because I wouldn't rather let power tools do a lot of the work, but because I don't understand how to use cheap ones accurately - and I don't think that's a lack of understanding. Some day in my distant future, maybe I'll have a mill and a lathe, but i'll probably never go away from pins and tails.

[george wilson]

I will get the lever cap screw in the mail today,David. Enjoy it.

[Rick Markham]

That is really a beautiful cap screw George!

David, I'd love to see a step by step from you. I'd really even just enjoy looking at some pics of your planes you have made. From what little I have had the time to do on mine, I have enjoyed all the metal work, and mine has been almost exclusively hand tools as well, The belt sander, Drill Press and my Tormek excluded. my next step is to profile the sides and attach them, hopefully I can do that soon. This one I am going to bolt, maybe I will tackle the dovetails after I see your tutorial!

[David Weaver]

I will get the lever cap screw in the mail today,David. Enjoy it.

Very grateful, George. It will be a challenge at my level to make a plane that is deserving of it, but one that I am glad to take on.

[Juan Hovey]

George Wilson - I need brass knurled bolts for two infill smoothers I'm just now fettling, and as I have it in mind to make and sell a line of these planes in the coming months, I'd like to have a ready source for the things. Would you have an interest in making me a set of 10 or 12 now, possibly more in the future? I'd like the knurled nut to measure 3/4 inch across and maybe 1/2 inch high, on 3/8-16 bolts 1 3/4 inches long. Please let me know.

[george wilson]

Juan,where are you located? Also,I need a sketch as to exactly what you want,else I might waste my time making something you don't want. Can you post a sketch here,or PM me with a sketch,or mail one to me if I give you my address in a PM?

[Bill Houghton]

Not the thread size folks have mentioned, but I thought I'd point to these (item B): http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?p=44203&cat=3,41306,41311

[wayne Jepson]

If George is too busy I can make them. Follow this link to pics.

http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?46074-Made-some-infill-lever-cap-screws

Wayne

[george wilson]

I can make them,but he hasn't replied yet. If he wants them like the 2 I posted here,I can make them like that,but to his dimensions,or I can make them different.

[george wilson]

Am I going to get a reply????

[Juan Hovey]

Juan,where are you located? Also,I need a sketch as to exactly what you want,else I might waste my time making something you don't want. Can you post a sketch here,or PM me with a sketch,or mail one to me if I give you my address in a PM?

George - Apologies for my delay in responding. Went to Seattle for PacNorwest Tool Collectors confab over the weekend, so didn't see your note until now.

I'd like something like the following, made by Johnny Kleso - 5/16-18 bolts in brass, knurled heads 3/4" in diameter and 1/4 to 3/8" high, bolt 1 3/4" in overall length.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?95576-Lever-Cap-Screws-for-Randy-Nelson&p=957801#post957801


Am sending you my contact info via PM. Juan Hovey