Do I need to use a conditioner on pine before using a gel stain?

[dennis thompson]

I just finished a table made from pine. I plan to use a General Finishes gel stain on it. Should I use a conditioner before the gel stain?
Thanks
Dennis

[Peter Quinn]

I don't know, but a quick test piece cut from the stock you are using will surely tell the story. As the magic 8 ball would say, "Chances are good that yes"! Pine has that blotchy reputation for a reason. Gell stain dries slowly to avoid user application error, but IME it doesn't do much for that blotch problem on species prone to it.

[johnny means]

Best way to avoid blotching is to use a dye stain before the gel stain. I use aniline dye in denatured alcohol. Sprayed on in very light, heavily diluted coats this will give your piece a very even, but dull, matte like coloration. Wipe on gel stain then further darkens and pops the grain.

[Matt Meiser]

I've had really good luck with Zinnser Sealcoat thinned to a 1lb cut. Its cheap, assuming you keep Sealcoat around your shop*, and it dries in just a few minutes.

* If you don't, you should. Its a great barrier coat, sealer, and general finish for shop projects.

[Lee Schierer]

I made the cabinet shown below from pine and used a MinWax stain on it. I don't recall if it was a gel stain or not. I did not use a conditioner. I only sanded to 150 grit, not the normal 220 grit. If you get blotching you may need to re-sand the area and if all else fails use a conditioner. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/kristinpantry2.jpg Note: the grain on this pine was very curly, so the dark spots are grain curl not blotches.

[Charlie Jones]

I always use a conditioner on pine. It does make a huge difference.

[Chris Padilla]

The reason pine blotches is the wild swings in grain pattern/density. Stains absorb differently and not uniformly.

The conditioner helps stop up the pores a bit to prevent the stain from penetrating deeply and helps to provide uniform penetration. Really, all conditioners are is a weak topcoat. For example, if you are planning to finish your piece in shellac, your conditioner would be a really light cut (1#) of shellac. Sanding sealers, conditioners, they are all the same thing.

Now that you understand WHY pine can be a pain to stain, you will understand better how to attack it. The gel stain *might not* need a conditioner because it is a thickish stain. It will not penetrate as deeply as a more viscous (liquidity) stain and thus you might get good results.

As others have said, test, test, test and then test again. If you want to be absolutely safe, use a conditioner.

[Richard Amabile]

Matt:

I will add another vote for Zinnser Seal Coat. I had major problems with blotching on one project that required numerous repeat sandings. It wasn't until I used a dewaxed shellac sealcoat that I was able to get it to look reasonably good. I used shellac flakes and made my own 1lb cut. But, I am making another project now and I will be using the Seal Coat dilluted to a 1lb cut for this one. The shellac flakes (once dilluted) only last about 6 months. The Seal Coat is supposed to be good for up to three years from the date stamped on the can.
I also agree that it depends on the wood, the grain, the sanding method, etc. Different pieces can come out looking quite different if taken from different kinds of pine or even different boards. Testing is key to making sure you get what you want.

[Prashun Patel]

Which GF stain color are you planning to use? The darker the color, the worse the blotch. The lighter, the less problem. That's part of the reason Lee's armoire looks so amazing.

I've not had the best luck dying (sp?) pine.

Shellac has really been the best for me. Thin, and blonde on the first coat (like Zinnser Sealcoat 1-1.5# cut). Then you can either use a gel stain or a darker (like garnet) shellac if you want something in the amber/orange/red family.

Beware that sealing with anything will inhibit blotch, but will also reduce the ability of the wood to get dark. I've decided for me the best is not to fight that. If using pine, I try to pick a light color.

I'm making a pine coffin out of pine right now for my co-worker's cat. It'll be garnet shellac, then waxed.

[Chris Padilla]

FYI on the Zinnser Sealcoat: it is a 2# cut of shellac.

[Jerry Thompson]

I have used thinned hide glue on pine and fir. Put on a thin coat with a brush. Let it dry for 24 hrs and hit it with a Scotch pad and dust off.
The end grain on our mantle took the dye the same as the long grain.