Sharpening Frustration with "New" Chisels

[Matthew Bobek]

Ok, you'd think that I would have learned my lesson about inexpensive tools, yet here I am and I have a question to pose. I bought the set of six Irwin chisels because they were on sale and I figured I could learn to sharpen with them. Well, after two hours I have one chisel's back sorta-kinda flat, the center still has some grinding marks and the next chisel is the same story. I'm using 40 micron sandpaper from TFWW affixed to some granite. This has been nothing but a frustrating experience and I'm about to melt those chisels back down ;).

But before I turn to such drastic measures, I was able to grind the primary bevel and secondary bevel (a little too big I think) and polish it to a mirror shine, using the higher grits, and then pare end grain on hard maple and walnut no problem. So, I think I did it right. Would this whole process be made easier with a diamond stone for flattening the backs instead of the sand paper? Like I said, for grinding the bevel and honing the scary sharp seems to work great, but this just seems like way too much work (back flattening) just to use these chisels. Should I have gone with the LN's so then it only would have taken a quick honing and then I'd be off to work? I'd much rather spend my time working wood than fettling brand new chisels and wasting my time. Not that I think sharpening is a waste of time, it's very important, just the fact that at this pace it's going to take me a couple days just to set these darn things up to work OK. Thanks for listening.

[Trevor Walsh]

I do all my finish (not grinding primaries or really pitted backs)sharpening on sandpaper. I think there are two things getting in your way here. First off the chisels most likely have a lacquer coating or some sort that keeps them shiny. Great for displaying in packaging, but really gunky on your sandpaper. The lacquer gums up the grit, like paring with a chisel still covered in wax, the grit is sharp but covered in gunk.

So remove the gunk, a solvent might work, I usually work them on course sandpaper, 150 AlO or SiC.

The second thing is...if I got the grit equivalent chart right, 40 microns works out to around 340 grit...way too fine for flattening out machining marks. I'd go to at least 220, maybe 180 if the scratches are deep.

And don't worry about getting PSA rolls or anything, just go to the borg or hardware store get some norton sandpaper, scraps of granite counter/glass/corian/or thick acrylic and some spray adhesive. Cut a bench stone shaped piece out, and glue sandpaper to it, they can them be treated like stones. and if you use something like plate glass/granite/Corian, you'll have mass like a real bench stone. Use wet or dry paper, and it's like having water stones.

When the grit is worn out, pull off the sandpaper, clean the glue off with a putty knife and solvent and glue on some new stuff. Always flat, cheap, and cut well.

Hope this helps.

[Matthew Bobek]

Thanks for the reply, I initially used lacquer thinner to get the nasty coating off and proceeded from there, so that fortunately wasn't the issue. Going down to 180 or 220 sounds like a good next move, according to TFWW the sandpaper was supposed to be equivalent to a 400 grit water-stone, being new to the hand tool side of things I'm learning on the fly here and trying not to get too frustrated. Nothing is ever perfect the first time, but getting the procedure right is paramount (at least it seems that way to me). I'd really like to avoid the expense of water or glass stones at this point, and learn to use what I have. Thanks again.

[Jonathan McCullough]

I took a large, 60-grit belt sander belt and stuck it to some melamine MDF with artist's spray adhesive. It's very flat and gets the job done quickly whether you're flattening a chisel back or re-establishing the bevel. It's useful to also keep a jar of water handy to cool off the blade.

[David Weaver]

If they're really that bad, I would go lower than that - and make it aluminum oxide. Norton 3x 100 or 80 grit. That'll get you to a starting point fast.

Make sure it is adhered to a substrate absolutely tight and stuck hard, or you'll create more problems.

[Matthew Bobek]

Forgive me, but, does it have to be wet/dry sandpaper to work best? It seems that the big box stores only stock regular sandpaper in these low grits, I'd like to avoid having to order more online. Also, will going too low damage the back of the chisel in any way? As far as the wet/dry paper, I have 40, 15, 5, and .5 micron for all the polishing and finishing. I'm not sure how low of a grit these call for to flatten the backs. What I can tell you guys is that as I was using the 40 micron the leading edge of the chisel and the uppper part began polishing immediately, but then it seemed to reach a point where nothing happened. So, I'm assuming there is a decent amount that needs to be removed to get to that low point? If it makes any difference I'm using the technique put forth by Chris Schwarz in an old issue of woodworking magazine, 2004-05, I believe.

[David Weaver]

no, not wet and dry. you want the paper backed norton 3x - it is far and away the best paper for metal removal in terms of aggressiveness and longevity. Use it dry and brush off or vacuum off the swarf as it builds up. Use it until it stops cutting or you've rubbed the abrasive off, then pull it up and apply new.

I used to use it and I found that I could rip an 8x11 sheet in three strips and that would pretty well do a set of tools.

do it until you see uniform scratches and then do another several dozen passes. The coarse aluminum oxide paper will leave a scratch pattern that you see before all of the milling marks are out the whole way. As you start using a 400 paper or 800 stone to get out the coarse sandpaper marks, you'll find the milling marks still there, so be sure to get them out.

Save the silicon carbide abrasive for finish honing where you don't care if it crushes down finely.

strange as it sounds, the zirconia alumina and silicon carbide papers and sheets do not last well at low speed and heavy pressure. They are, I'm assuming, made to cut hard metal at high speeds.

[John Coloccia]

Forgive me, but, does it have to be wet/dry sandpaper to work best? It seems that the big box stores only stock regular sandpaper in these low grits, I'd like to avoid having to order more online. Also, will going too low damage the back of the chisel in any way? As far as the wet/dry paper, I have 40, 15, 5, and .5 micron for all the polishing and finishing. I'm not sure how low of a grit these call for to flatten the backs. What I can tell you guys is that as I was using the 40 micron the leading edge of the chisel and the uppper part began polishing immediately, but then it seemed to reach a point where nothing happened. So, I'm assuming there is a decent amount that needs to be removed to get to that low point? If it makes any difference I'm using the technique put forth by Chris Schwarz in an old issue of woodworking magazine, 2004-05, I believe.

Mark the chisel with a sharpie so you can see what's making contact. That will give you an idea of your progress, and also how much work you have to go. The flatter it gets, the harder it will get to flatten because you're removing more metal. Chisels are hard....it may take a while!

Very important: if you mark with the sharpie, and find that the sharpie is coming off the middle instead of the ends, that means there's a high spot in the middle and there's potential for rocking on the high spot, and that will make it worse. You have to be very careful in that situation. Wherever the sharpie disapears is where you're making contact, i.e. those are your high spots, and that will really help you visualize what's going on.

[Matthew Bobek]

Wow, thanks for all the additional info. I had no idea sandpaper was so complex. I know the exact paper you're talking about though and I'll be heading out tomorrow to pick some up. I suppose I'll rework my 1/2" chisel first and really get that thing right. Once again you creekers have really come through, thank you.

[Trevor Walsh]

I use the coarser grits dry, and only use wet sanding when I hit P400. Start with the 220, and move through the grits. Use a sharpie on the back to see better where things are in need of care.

I've attached some photos I just took flattening and polishing the back of a Pexto socket firmer, you'll see it had lots of patina. mostly well taken car of though. Maybe better shape than what you're working with, not sure.

I started by running it over the 400 to see what the highs and lows were, then worked on the 150 till I evened it out. Don't worry about getting the entire thing dead flat and mirror smooth, like a Japanese chisel work the toe. I hit it with sharpie and grind on 320 to see what I might be missing. If I rub remove all the marker I'm good and take it up to 1000 and strop. There are also some reflections off the backs of my daily users including a 1/8" Irwin blue chip. Start on the 1/4" build some confidence before tackling the 1" monster. If you need any different pics or explanation let me know.

[Trevor Walsh]

And here are the rest of the photos

[Andrae Covington]

...does it have to be wet/dry sandpaper...

Many people use water, mineral spirits, etc. to create a slurry and help move the metal filings away so they don't clog up the sharpening medium so quickly. This is why wet/dry sandpaper is recommended. If you spritz water on regular sandpaper and start lapping the chisel, you will soon find the abrasive detaching from the backing paper into a globular mess. DAMHIKT:rolleyes: If you use it dry then it shouldn't matter. I have a set of diamond stones, but sometimes use sandpaper on a granite tile for certain tasks. I have not found wet/dry coarser than 200 grit (~60 micron), so regular sandpaper would have to be used dry for coarse grinding. I actually use my diamond stones dry a lot of times too.


...Well, after two hours I have one chisel's back sorta-kinda flat, the center still has some grinding marks...

If I understand your description correctly, the back along the cutting edge is flat, as well as up along the sides. If just the middle still has factory grinding marks, then you can stop, IMO.:) If only the middle was being flattened and you were not reaching the sides or end, then that would be bad. A hollow in the middle is nothing to worry about, in fact some chisels are intentionally ground that way to make it easier for you to flatten because you're only removing metal around the edges.

I've attached a photo, though I found this difficult to photograph the way it looks to me in person. I have a set of Narex chisels. They are a good value for the money, I think, but they need a lot more work flattening the backs than more high-end options. I probably need to do more work to this chisel, but at any rate, hopefully you can see that I flattened just enough to get along the cutting edge, and two thin strips up the sides a ways. The hollow middle still has the original grinding marks. The smaller chisel in the photo is an Ashley Iles Mk2 I bought recently. I did go over it with my finer diamond stones, but you can see that the factory grinding is more refined. It was quick to set up, unlike the Narex.

The Narex chisels are chrome manganese, and I see online the Irwins are chrome vanadium. I believe the Ashley Iles are O-1. I think those chrome-whatever chisels are a lot harder to grind and polish by hand. At least with the Narex, once sharpened they can take a beating though.

[Trevor Walsh]

Andrae, how do you like the Isles MK2s? I'm being tempted by them. Can you give a little rundown on em?

Thanks,

[Andrae Covington]

Andrae, how do you like the Isles MK2s? I'm being tempted by them. Can you give a little rundown on em?

Thanks,

So am I.:D I just have this one, which I bought recently specifically to use for dovetailing (learning how, that is). Working in 3/4" pine, I had decided to make the pins 3/8", so I bought a 3/8" chisel to pare the endgrain in one pass. The sides on my Narex chisels were way too big to do this sort of work without tearing up the dovetails. The Mk2s are ground down very thin on the sides, about 1mm or less. My struggling technique aside, it works perfectly for this task.

The width is slightly less than 3/8", within 1/64", and slightly more than 9mm. Not a problem for me, but I thought I'd mention it. The nearest Narex I have is 10mm. In this size, the Mk2 is about 9" long overall, with the bottom of the ferrule at the halfway point. It has a nice balance I think. I don't really have enough experience with different chisels to decide on my favorite handle shape and size, but so far I like this handle more than the Narex, which can seem club-like... especially on the smaller chisels. I have small hands though. I can see how someone with large hands might decide there is not enough blade to hold onto for paring, but for me it works fine. I put it and the 10mm Narex on a postal scale and the Ashley Iles is 3.8oz and the Narex is 4.7oz.

I probably could have used it "out of the box", but I could see the factory grinding on the back (though way, way better than the Narex), so I spent a little time polishing that up and then regrinding the bevel and adding a microbevel. As I said before, it really didn't take long.

So I am pleased, and will probably buy some more sizes. One thing I should note is that I have been using a fret saw to take out most of the waste, so I am only paring, not chopping with a mallet. Although I think the Mk2 could take some tapping, for serious pounding I would use the Narex chisels, which are nigh indestructible. So I don't view the Mk2 as a complete replacement, but rather a tool reserved for finer work.

[Ryan Griffey]

On a side note I would advise dumping those chisels. I had a set, polished the backs and sharpened them nicely. The edges folded over in less than fifteen minutes of chopping. They may have some use in softwoods. You should be able to send them back even after sharpening. I was able to get a full refund through Amazon.

[Russell Sansom]

I'd re-emphasize the advice to work on the narrower chisels. The 3/4" and 1" chisels take an awful lot of work to flatten the backs, especially if just a corner is low and you, therefore, have to thin down the entire chisel. It's also easy to botch a 1/4" until you know what you're doing. 1/8" is even worse.

[Mike Siemsen]

I use 36 - 40 grit zirconium (blue) sanding belts that I open out flat and glue down. Mike

[Rob Young]

I'd re-emphasize the advice to work on the narrower chisels. The 3/4" and 1" chisels take an awful lot of work to flatten the backs, especially if just a corner is low and you, therefore, have to thin down the entire chisel. It's also easy to botch a 1/4" until you know what you're doing. 1/8" is even worse.

Not hard to do. Instead of running the chisel at right angles to the stone (sandpaper, loose grit, whatever) draw it as close to parallel with the stone as possible. Pull back only so you don't accidentally dig it in.

And with less metal to remove in the first place you can start at a higher grit and still get it done quickly. Plus, with your fingers close in for support it's nice to have a higher grit (or stone) for the inevitable first or second pass where you drag your finger across too. But you will quickly find a grip on the piece that doesn't cause this to happen.

[Matthew Bobek]

Once again, thanks for all the info. I think I will start with the smaller ones and hopefully have some success. Hopefully between now and the end of the week I'll have enough time to get them squared away.

On a separate note, I received the LN catalog a couple of days ago and the description for the chisels says the backs are ground flat and finished to 400 grit. Does this mean I would only have to refine the primary bevel and then add the secondary bevel for these to be ready for work? Thanks as always.

[Trevor Walsh]

I looked at the backs at their event two weeks ago, they are nicely done, Not quite mirror if I remember correct but very uniform. (I was in plane shell-shock, not much else mattered...). I'd still take them up to mirror finish and strop them. I'm debating about a pair of mortise chisels sometime this year so I'll let you know when the time comes.

[glenn bradley]

I have the old Marples version of those chisels. I just used a sharp shop knife to clean the clear-coat off. I sharpen and flattened them in just a few minutes on the Worksharp 3K. I know, blasphemy, but I get a mirror finish toot-sweet and touch-ups take about 3 seconds. I do hand sharpen a lot of cutters but, square chisels are just too easy on the machine.

[Rob Young]

On a separate note, I received the LN catalog a couple of days ago and the description for the chisels says the backs are ground flat and finished to 400 grit. Does this mean I would only have to refine the primary bevel and then add the secondary bevel for these to be ready for work? Thanks as always.

The short answer is "it depends". By that I mean, for some people lapping the back to 400 is sufficient and they won't bother with more.

For others, they want to use the entire back of the chisel as a shaving mirror.

If you work the back on the same grits (stones) you use for the face they will eventually polish up same as the bevel. The good news is they should be FLAT to start with, just happen to have 400 grit scratches in them. That will take you a LONG, LONG way down the slope just having one or two good chisels in the sizes you use the most.

[Terry Beadle]

I'd use much coarser grit sand paper as recommened by some above. 80 grit or even 60 grit if a chisel is way out of flat. Then work your way up to 320 and then hit the stones ( oil or water ). I recommend a 800 grit water stone for initial flattening work. You can go to a 2000 ~ 3000 after that and finish up with a 6000. Above that is really nice to have but not necessary.

The Ashley Isles that I bought folded the cutting edge fairly quickly until in increased the micro bevel to 35 ~ 37. Once done they work flawlessly ( except for my poor marksmanship ! ) and keep an edge very well. I've used them in oak, hickory, and some sun hardened cherry with good results.

I have the Nynex set and they are very good. I think for the price, the best bang for a buck. For a starter set they are really a good value.

Have fun !

[Matthew Bobek]

So, I was in my local Woodcraft today and even though LN has pulled their line from the stores, they still have what they stocked. And, coincidentally, they had the set of five LN chisels sitting there in the display case. Those were some real beauties, they felt perfectly balanced in my hand, unlike these Irwin ones, and the construction was just perfect. I now understand the cost associated with these tools. The backs were dead flat, polished to 400 grit, not super shiny, but I don't understand yet why someone would want to see themselves in the back of their chisel (or plane iron), perhaps in due time. Back to the point, I am totally sold, unfortunately I do not have that kind of spare coin, but Christmas is coming and perhaps I'll find out how caring my family really is :D. I do believe there is a place for vintage tools and "value" priced tools, but I honestly just want to get down to working wood, and spending umpteen hours getting a tool to work is not at the top of my list. By the time I take into account what my time is worth and the investment in materials and the tool itself, I would much rather have a tool that's ready to go and allows me to work that wood. That's what were all here for anyway, isn't it?

Happy wood slicing!

[Trevor Walsh]

So am I.:D I just have this one, which I bought recently specifically to use for dovetailing (learning how, that is). Working in 3/4" pine, I had decided to make the pins 3/8", so I bought a 3/8" chisel to pare the endgrain in one pass.


On a side note Andrae, if you are having frustrations with the pine for dovetails switch to poplar for the first few, it's way cleaner cutting than the pine endgrain.