Felder or Minimax Bandsaw

[Brian Cosgrove]

Hi,

I am rather new to the creek, but the information I have been able to get from this site so far has been incredible, and I see myself becoming a contributor very soon. I have the opportunity to possibly purchase a used Felder FB540 bandsaw which is less than two years old or possibly a demo unit Minimax MM20, both for similar price if you factor in shipping. Considering both saws being in good condition, which would you buy? I know both are Italian made, which is the gold standard, so either would probably be a great saw. I have a Hammer A3-31 J/P and have had great customer service from Felder, so that puts the Felder slightly ahead. Any favorable arguments towards either would be appreciated. I am a hobbyist who is upgrading from a Laguna 16" 3000 series, which actually is a great saw in my opinion, but I am in a mode where I am obsessed about upgrading, even though my needs don't necessarily require it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian,

If you are comfortable with Felder customer service, go for it!

I have a MM-16 and have been happy with it.

If both are in good shape, I don't think you could go wrong with either bandsaw.

[Van Huskey]

First my comments are based on the FB540 you are looking at being essentially the same as their current model. The Felder in this case is a "traditionally proportioned" bandsaw meaning it has a relatively short resaw height compared to wheel size 13 3/4" vs 21 1/4". The Minimax is part of the "new wave" of bandsaws with very similar resaw height to wheel size. The MM20 is going to have ~6 more inches of resaw but about an inch less in the throat and slightly smaller wheels. Although both made in Italy they are not made by the same company. The MM20 is one step up in "weight class" for Italian saws and is packing an extra ~150 lbs or so. The Felder only tilts to 20 degrees, for some it is a non-issue for others it means it is a non-starter.

For me between the two is money is even NEAR being the same it would be the MM20 as it has significantly more capacity and built heavier as a result of this. In general I see the Felder saws as the 4th in line behind the big three in Italian saws (Agazzani, Laguna and Minimax). All but the Minimax are made by ACM and the Felder saws are from ACM's lighter line but priced higher than the Agazzanis and Lagunas from the heavier line. (Eagle imports Agazzanis from different lines so in their line they have saws in the lighter and heavier classes).

[Rod Sheridan]

Van, I think the Felder tilts to 45 degrees, the website seems to have incorrect information.

The one I tried out tilted to 45 degrees, however the degree scale ended at 25??????

regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

Van, I think the Felder tilts to 45 degrees, the website seems to have incorrect information.

The one I tried out tilted to 45 degrees, however the degree scale ended at 25??????

regards, Rod.

That is interesting I know the Hammer does exactly that with the scale ending but keeps on going to 45* also a head scratcher for me, but a non-issue since I use a Wixey digital protractor for tilting on all machines. I did call about the Felder that was introductory priced earlier this year (can't remember which one it was) and was told over the phone it only tilted 20 some odd degrees, they may have been looking at the spec sheet though. I am in Wilmington a couple of times a year on business and keep meaning to drop by again and when I do I need to take a look at this, it just doesn't make sense especially since it is a ACM built saw but who knows.

[Dick Sylvan]

Brian,

If you are comfortable with Felder customer service, go for it!

I have a MM-16 and have been happy with it.

If both are in good shape, I don't think you could go wrong with either bandsaw.
In the same boat as Ken, have a MM-16 and a Hammer C3-31 combo and love both!!

[Wes Grass]

The new Felder, the FB-600, does in fact only tilt to 20+ degrees. The scale goes to 22.5, but it looked like it stopped a hair short. Don't know for sure, didn't think to put an angle gauge on it.

Why is a good question. Could be the trunnion is substantially wider. I'll have to compare to my old Laguna to see how it looks.

And from what I understand, this saw is made by Felder and assembled using a bunch of parts sourced from ACM. The wheels, guide mechanism, etc., look identical to the Laguna.

[ian maybury]

You brought up a point there Van that doesn't get much airing - that is that the Italian and other makers offer heavy and lighter duty lines of saws. The latter tend to have lighter chassis, slightly smaller motors, lighter fences etc.

It's no wonder that the position is less than 100% clear when even the manufacturers' literature does everything it can to avoid highlighting this fact - presumably for fear of putting off spec sheet ticking but highly budget driven potential buyers of the 'cheaper' models that will not spring for more expensive models.

Even on the 'heavy duty' models there's very little information offered about what this means - either in terms of technical differences, or performance/capability.

The magazines don't help much, as they normally review (they usually don't in any true sense "test') saws and other bits of kit in isolation, even within group tests. They don't seem to make any real effort to set out where they fit into the grand scheme of things, and tend to avoid explicit language - advertising revenues and liability are presumably issues too.

Add in often clueless sales people ready to claim (as I said to somebody yesterday - but there are a few more ethical players out there too) that a given saw is nuclear powered to get a sale and it can become a stressful morass for the less experienced buyer.

US designations may be a bit different, but the heavy/lighter lines I seemed to detect while searching the topic this year included (?):

Agazzani: NRA/Rapid series
Centauro: CO/SP series
Griggio: SNAC/SNA series
ACM: ?/Star series

There are others as well that I can't remember - SCM Minimax and the Eastern makers who recently through the likes of Grizzly seem to offer various levels of machine too. Laguna as well, but they seem to draw from multiple sources. I'm not sure if Felder offer lighter and heavier machines, although I suspect that they do.

It seems a pity to me that there isn't more clarity, because in the end it's mostly about horses for courses as defined by differing blends of price:quality/specification/capability than snap good/bad judgements. A saw optimised for deep resawing is by definition not going to be the same animal as another aimed at the older style more general curve cutting duty in thinner materials where horizontal capacity is more important.

This blurring (unless the differences are inconsequential) and lack of clarity on specification/capability seems to me to mostly just risk disappointing customers. Perhaps the motivation is to confuse the customer on how price and performance relate to each other?

It seems to me that the more that's written these days about equipment the more confused the picture gets - even for the technically savvy and methodical buyer.

Does anybody have any experience based or other views on how the differing lines of band saws may stack up relative to each other in capability terms?

ian

[wayne holmes]

Brian-have some good input for the saw and your present one

wayne 731-742-4107

[Scot Ferraro]

Felder has some ACM saws from both lines -- the heavier duty 900 series is from the upper line and has the triangular box construction on the beam. My 9 year old Laguna is from the Star series -- this might be a lighter line similar to the 700 series of Felder. It has served me well regardless of the line. The new Felder 640 is built by Felder and not ACM, although it may have parts sourced from other manufacturers.

Scot

[Frank Drew]

Brian

Are you close enough to give either or both saws a test drive? That could answer a lot of your questions.

[Mike Heidrick]

The massize solid CI wheels of the MM20 is definately a plus in my eyes. I have seen two Felder saws in person and would not trade my MM20 for either IMO.

Although if I owned your current saw I doubt I would upgrade as you have a very very capable awesome saw and the potential loss in investment would not be outweighed by additional capacity because of need.

If you need the upgrade then that is a different story.

Of course there is always keeping both saws therefore the "no justification required" rules of hobby ownership apply! :cool:

[Van Huskey]

I guess I opened a can of worms with the heavy vs lighter line comments...

One thing to remember is weight is an of itself doesn't mean diddly, it like most things in life is all about how it is used.

Lets take a quick look at the reason I think European and basically Italian vertical bandsaws are now considered the best produced (at least in smaller sizes) in the world.

American bandsaws have been traditionally made with heavy cast iron frames with weights often better measured in tons than pounds. Interestingly enough the damping ability of these huge amounts of cast iron were able to mask subtle balance and concentricity issues.

After WWII much of Europe's car and machinery production ability was destroyed and all this industry had to retool and also deal with shortages of raw materials. As a result engineers went to work developing manufacturing techniques that allowed strong structures to be built with a minimum of materials. Some sixty plus years later this gives us strong steel spined bandsaws. To build these bandsaws the tolerances had to be higher than cast iron saws since the light steel construction could not damp the vibrations caused by these imprefections. Bottom line better built saws by necessity. In the modern age when iron costs more than precision the "American" way of building a bandsaw is all but dead and the people that have been building them the precision way now have little competition, though the Asian saws will get there, maybe soon.


I said a lot to say a little:

In general the lighter lines from Italy (I suppose those built in Hall in Tirol as well) that are imported to America tend to be from two weight classes. MOST of the saws in the lighter class are "traditional" bandsaws with resaw heights much smaller than their wheel size, the heavier class tend to be those with resaw height at or near their wheel size. There are some unusual and some of the larger wheeled (that most of us would not be looking at) saws that are imported but vary from this rule of thumb. The key here is the lighter weight saws with traditional resaw heights don't need to be any stronger or heavier than they are, so weight is not an indication of quality but more directly linked to capacity in these cases.


My approach to the OP was/is:

1. both saws are built to similar quality standards
2. The MM20 is built heavier to accomodate its 50% increase in resaw height
3. The FB540 has slightly larger wheels and throat

Finally, I see this as buying a F150 or a F250 pickup, if price and condition are similar I am going to take the F250. I personally would have no problems owning ANY Felder product but I would also not like to give up 6 inches of resaw height for an inch of throat space given the MM20 is every bit as high quality as the Felder. That said, in a blind test (kinda dangerous with a saw :eek:) I would suggest there would be NO difference between the two saws until you ran into the physical limits of each saw, the design and quality are just very similar.

[Van Huskey]

Of course there is always keeping both saws therefore the "no justification required" rules of hobby ownership apply! :cool:

The Laguna LT16 3000 would be a PERFECT second saw to compliment either of these saws in a dedicated contour cutting role. Great guides and enough resaw height to keep the upper cabinet out of the visual line to the blade as well as a foot brake for stopping the blade when repositioning the blade beats the heck out of a 14" cast clone! Even better if he really wants to be a bandsaw "baller" get the Felder and the MM... :D

[Mike Heidrick]

Even better if he really wants to be a bandsaw "baller" get the Felder and the MM... :D

This might be my favorite line posted of the month.

[ian maybury]

The male mind. So decisive where ladies and band saws are concerned. :) Not!

More seriously: 'I would suggest there would be NO difference between the two saws until you ran into the physical limits of each saw, the design and quality are just very similar.'

This is in fact the million dollar question - just where do the limits of the various models of saw lie. The stuff determined by e.g. throat capacity is easy, but e.g. re-saw capability is a lot less obvious.

It can matter a lot, and lead to expensive learning experiences. I was suckered by the maker of my last supposedly decent quality saw (purposely I'm sure) blurring the very real distinction between '12in vertical capacity' and '12in re-saw capability' in the blurb - this was back before I had discovered just how misleading DIY woodworking literature usually is compared to that I was used to in industry.

The re-saw capability turned out to be more like 5in, and it struggled to tension a 1/2in blade properly.....

[Van Huskey]

It can matter a lot, and lead to expensive learning experiences. I was suckered by the maker of my last supposedly decent quality saw (purposely I'm sure) blurring the very real distinction between '12in vertical capacity' and '12in re-saw capability' in the blurb - this was back before I had discovered just how misleading DIY woodworking literature usually is compared to that I was used to in industry.

The re-saw capability turned out to be more like 5in, and it struggled to tension a 1/2in blade properly.....


You have indeed hit on a very salient issue. With these saws I think vertical capacity and resaw capacity are essentially the same thing, keeping in mind particularly the MM20's ~19.5" resaw capacity will require some decent user skill to accomplish. With these particular bandsaws both have the horsepower and rigidity to accomplish what they suggest they can. They are both a FAR cry from a 3/4 HP 14" cast clone with a riser block where the "12" resaw height" is merely a bullet point in their literature unless one has significant skill and the patience of Job.

Ian you compare bandsaws to ladies which I think is apt, I will compare them to handguns: The Felder is like a .38 and the MM is like a .357 Magnum, both will shoot .38 ammo all day long and do it well but when you find that BIG board you need to split you can drop in .357 Magnum loads into the MM but with the Felder, to paraphrase "Jaws" you're gonna need a bigger bandsaw.

[Mike Heidrick]

Also, using a great blade on these saws is the icing on the cake or the match grade load for the handguns. Anyone that is buying one of these saws might want to hit up emoney208 or whatever his woodnet name is and grab on of his $65 Lenox carbide blades. The will need to be cut and rewelded but it is a steal for a trimaster blade for these big saws.

[ian maybury]

+1 For sure blade choice is the key input after choice of saw Mike, and can even supersede saw choice by raising the capability of a saw above that of a supposedly better model.

As before Van the bit that makes choice of saw tough is the lack of hard information about on just when the switch to .357 ammo is really needed.

You've surfaced another 'blurring' factor too (you're doing a great job :)) - that is the skill, time and scrap involved in getting to a set up that works.

This begs the question of how much faffing about is acceptable in deciding what the true capability of the saw is. One problem that comes up in the DIY end of woodworking is that there's quite a few owners (and makers, and magazines) ready to claim/imply their xyz saw is capable of whatever - when in fact to get the damn thing to do it requires a half day to find a set up that makes it (with extreme care) possible.

By that sort of (perverse) measure my old bandsaw would handle lots more depth of cut over the 5in I mentioned - but only at a glacially slow cutting rate, and with the most careful finessing of the feed to prevent the best blade I could find breaking into some sort of flutter.

I'm not that interested in spending ages on set up every time I need to make a demanding cut - nor am I very accepting of a scenario where there's a 50% risk of the cut going wrong as a result of some unseen variable kicking in. (e.g. :p i scratched my ass with my left hand while feeding the piece and unwittingly changed the feed rate by 2%, thus triggering armageddon)

Real world capability surely has to routinely be available from a properly maintained and competently run machine - with no special tuning or handling.

For anybody into their manufacturing management and statistical process control that means the ability to work within acceptable (control) limits without further adjustment until the next scheduled maintenance is due. More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_chart

Perhaps in the end it's not by accident that even smallish dedicated re-saw costs double and more what a big band saw does....

[Stephen Cherry]

For what it's worth, I was just at the Felder show this past weekend in deleware to pick up a scoring unit for my 5 year old saw. This took a little time for them (in Austria) to put together, but what arrived was a preassembled kit, which I was able to install in just a few hours. Not fast, but exactly right. They even wired up the electrics as much as possible so it fit right in, I didn't need to cut even one wire. And the price was OK.

The point being, I can tell you directly that Felder service did a great job for me, and I didn't even buy the machine new from them.