Is a RAS a necessary Shop Component?

[Dean Ousterhout]

Hello Creekers,

I read a lot of posts about a RAS and just wondered what your thoughts are about building a shop and what place the RAS has in it?

I have the following:


a Delta Unisaw with a 72 inch fence
Jessem router table, soon to have a 7518
6" jointer, I know... I need to go to at least 8"
12" Dewalt Compound miter, that is planned for a cutoff station
bench drill press
Performax 24" drum sander
Shopsmith 5 in one tool
Shopsmith 12" planer
Delta 14" bandsaw
bunch of hand tools, power tools, multiple routers
Clearvue cyclone

Do I need a RAS? I have never used one so I don't know, but I am organizing a wood shop in my 2 car garage, and after I get the stuff arranged, I am thinking I won't want to move it around, although I am planning on french cleating everything on the walls so there will be flexibility later.

Thoughts???

[Chris Padilla]

For those of us who don't have one, we don't need it.

For those of us who have one, we couldn't live without it.

:)

For me, the table saw, bandsaw, planer, and jointer are the main horses. A pony to those beasts might be a router table and a good workbench and a power miter saw.

If I ever build my dreamshop, however, I'm likely to get one. :)

[John Coloccia]

I don't have one. I wouldn't mind having one if I had the room, but on the other hand I really don't need one and would have a hard time justifying it. Where I personally think it shines is cabinet making. If you're cutting lots of drawers, and things like that, it makes it ridiculously easy to very rapidly cut a bunch of planks to precisely the same dimension. Though you can do this other ways (cutoff saws, table saws, etc), none is really as fast and convenient as a RAS. That's my opinion, and if I was making 50 drawers and 10 cabinets a week, I would have one in my shop. Also, if someone gave me one for free, I'd take it :D

[Peter Quinn]

Do you need an ras? I can say no to that question about basically every machine in the shop. I'd ask you to describe what you make, and how you want to make it to best organize your production method. I work with lots of 8/4 stock that comes rough and gets cut to lengths first. For memthere is no better tool to handle this than a RAS period. But methods vary widely, so your needs may vary too.

The question is what is the best way for you to make the cuts you need for the work you do, and you are the best candidate to answer that accurately IMO.

[Rod Sheridan]

I don't have one, nor do I have a mitre saw. I have a sliding table saw.

It can crosscut far larger panels than a RAS, with better accuracy and safety, rips far better etc.

A RAS would be handy if you do a lot of timber work, either a 12 or 14" model probably.

Regards, Rod.

[Matt Benton]

Along the lines of what John said, I think the RAS is most useful when doing alot of repetitive crosscutting where setup time needs to be minimized, as well as where dust collection isn't as much of a priority.

Seems to me that the closer you are to a hobbiest, the less benefit you get out of a RAS vs. a TS or even BS...

[Kevin Stockwell]

If you DO need one, it seems to me that every fourth or fifth listing on Craigslist under "tools" is a Craftsman RAS :D

[Jerome Hanby]

I just don't like the look and feel of the modern Craftsman RASs. The aren't treated kindly in forum posts either.

I'm not sure you can get much more accurate crosscuts than you can with a properly setup and operating Dewalt GWI. But there is a definite limit to the length of the cross cut compared to a sliding table. Being able to see where your dado blade is hitting the wood is a great feature too, but not unique to the RAS, a router and guide give you similar capability.

[george wilson]

We had a RAS at work. The only thing we ever did with it was cut off very long boards that were too long to manage on the table saw.

I used to demonstrate the RAS at Sears during their Christmas season sales,and do all those trick( but mostly useless) cuts. I never liked RAS's,and never miss not having 1 at home.

There was a great,old,like new 16" Dewalt for sale I saw a while back,for $500.00. I mean,it was el perfecto mucho!! I simply haven't the room,or the inclination for one.

For making a large number of shop shelves from 8' boards, I got a cheap sliding miter saw from Lowes. It worked just fine for cutting off long boards.

[Art Mulder]

Dean,

I don't have a RAS in my shop, and have no plans to ever get one.

But it all depends on what you do and how you like to work. Really, your original question is kind of flawed. IMHO, you can ask the question:


Is a ______ a necessary Shop Component?
And my answer would always be the same: No.
It all depends on what you do and how you like to work. I don't think there is any "necessary" shop tool.

[Scott Donley]

I would have a hard time getting rid of mine. Nothing better for cutting stakes for whatever, cutting rough boards to a manageable size, and at one time I even did my ripping on it! It also only takes me a minute to clear the table to use it :D I have had it for about 30 years and was the first major tool I bought, might have something to do with it, I have used it a number of times in the last few weeks. If I did not already have would I need one? Maybe not, but I would want one.;)

[Jeremy Greiner]

Here is what I've found from my research, I'm by no means an expert.

A radial arm saw excels at cross cutting wide boards to length. A miter saw also excels in the same manner, a sliding miter saw even more so (you'll see many people who have both build them next to each other into the same table system)

Things a radial arm saw can do that a miter saw can't
Crosscut 10''+ (depending on your miter saw) width boards.
Dado cuts (assuming the RAS supports a dado blade)

I can't think of anything else really (I could be missing something). Your table saw can do both but not as conveniently.

There is a lot of overlap with tools, focusing on the tools that excel at what you're trying to do is your best bet.

-jeremy

[Gary Curtis]

RAS saws have one purpose: to cut really long timbers. If you aren't a carpenter and don't work with 16-feet of 2x4s, consider the disadvantages of an RAS.

1) It climb cuts --- meaning that the saw wants to pull the wood (and you) into the blade. The accident rate was much higher than a table saw.

2) Keeping it aligned is a nightmare. That's the single most important reason Sliding Compound Miter saws were invented and marketed.

3) if you do cut those longer boards, the saw requires 3 feet of infeed and outfeed tables to the left and right. Has your shop got room.

4) somebody in this thread mentioned lots of repetitive cross cuts. To do that, get a SLCM saw. Much, much safer.

[Kent A Bathurst]

...Do I need a RAS?.......

Nope.







1010101010

[John Toigo]

I have two RAS's in my shop. I have a 16" Dewalt GP which I use for crosscutting and an MBF which I use for trimming & dados & such. I think they're both better for that than a table saw.

[Steve Griffin]

4) somebody in this thread mentioned lots of repetitive cross cuts. To do that, get a SLCM saw. Much, much safer.

If you want to make repetitive cuts, having a stop system such as made by Kreg or Beismeyer set up on your saw station is about 300 times more important than type of saw.

In fact, I refuse to make a single cut on my miter saw without a stop system unless I'm rough cutting or making firewood.

-Steve

[Chip Lindley]

I'll jump in the frey! As said, there is much overlap in the capabilities of woodworking machines. But some make it a pleasure to perform an operation. Others make your quality of life much less.

If you don't miss having an RAS you probably don't need one. I would not try to do without mine.

[Dick Sylvan]

I had one for many years, but I sold it and have never, never missed it.

[Charlie Velasquez]

Uhhh......


RAS saws have one purpose: to cut really long timbers. If you aren't a carpenter and don't work with 16-feet of 2x4s, consider the disadvantages of an RAS.

1) It climb cuts --- meaning that the saw wants to pull the wood (and you) into the blade. The accident rate was much higher than a table saw.

2) Keeping it aligned is a nightmare. That's the single most important reason Sliding Compound Miter saws were invented and marketed.

3) if you do cut those longer boards, the saw requires 3 feet of infeed and outfeed tables to the left and right. Has your shop got room.

4) somebody in this thread mentioned lots of repetitive cross cuts. To do that, get a SLCM saw. Much, much safer.

I would disagree.

1. Properly maintained saw with the bearings supplying the correct pressure, negative hook blade kept sharp, and adequate height fence eliminates this argument.
2. Spend whatever time it takes to set up right the first time (Jon Eakes methods-he says it only takes 20 minutes, it took me a couple of hours), and then 5 minutes a week or so to just check your settings. May not even need adjustments. Probably the same you do for any machine in your shop (alright... I haven't checked my drill press in a year or so...)
3. I can't see it using any more linear space than a SCMS.
4. http://tablesawaccidents.com/

In 2003 the Consumer Product Safety Commission estimated that “93,880 saw-related injuries were treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms”. Of these 52,000 (55%) involved stationary saws (table saw 38,000 (73%), miter saw 7,640 (15%), band saw 4060 (8%), and radial arm saw 2,300 (4%). (Data summarized from: Injuries Associated with Stationary Power Saws, May 2003, Propit Adler, Directorate for Epidemiology, Division of Hazard Analysis, U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission)And from Tom Hintz's survey on safety:

http://www.newwoodworker.com/safesurvy.html

Of the 262 submissions, nearly two thirds, (64-percent) focused on the table saw. ...(snip)... Though kickback and related injuries are a common topic among woodworkers, actual contact with the blade caused the most injuries reported in this survey. Of 167 table saw reports, 113 of them (68-percent) involved the woodworker making contact with the spinning blade....(snip)
The remaining responses named a wide range of power and hand tools, none of which totaled one percent of the survey total. Equipment such as hammers, chisels, belt sanders, lathes, grinders and jointers generated very small numbers of reports. Surprising in this group was only one injury report involving a radial arm saw.
Even if you argue there are more table saw and SCMS users than RAS users, could you argue there are 16600% more than RAS users (Tablesaw-Hintz) or 2000% more (CPSC report)? Separating out just the SCMS we would need to do some more figuring... From the first article:
The vast majority of accidents occur while ripping. In fact the article had a little over 52% of the accidents occurred while ripping. This has been the biggest knock on the RAS (Probably rightly so on a poorly tuned RAS).


http://tablesawaccidents.com/user/gimage/accident-statistics-type-saw-cut_bmp_356_348.png
But this is not what you are referring to in #4. So..., if we get rid of 52% of the accidents on the RAS (can't on the SCMS, since none of those were from ripping)... 800 to 1000% more ... I don't think #4 is defensible.

[david brum]

I recently got an RAS to replace my CSMS. I did it for a few reasons; You can get a beautiful, old DeWalt RAS for under $100 all day long on CL. These machines are out of fashion now, so are sold for peanuts. It may be true that newer RASs are poorly made and dangerous, but the old ones are massive and stable.

Also, the dust collection is far, far more effective than a miter saw. The saw ejects a jet of dust straight out the back of the cut. It is easily caught with a box. Miter saws by contrast, spray much more dust and chips around.

They also use an induction motor which is much quieter than the universal motor on a miter saw, like comparing a table saw to a router.

My RAS also makes a cleaner crosscut, with less tearout or fuzz than a CSMS. It also does not require the stock to be clamped to the fence, as the blade pulls the stock into the fence. It likewise doesn't kick out small cutoffs.

The last thing is that the old ones are plain cool. They come from a different era and represent a different approach to cutting wood. These are exactly what people are talking about when the lament the loss of quality in modern tools. These old saws are incredibly well made. They cost major cash when the were originally sold.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

For doing things like repetitive crosscut (like face frames), they're nice and fairly accurate. Since they use an induction motor, they run pretty quietly and one can leave the machine running in between cuts.

As far as climb cutting, it's really not an issue if you use a negative rake thin kerf saw blade.

However, they are not for ripping or making moldings as sometimes advertised.

If you have a tablesaw and a miter saw (or a sliding miter saw), an RAS is just a convenience item which has to be weighed against shop space.

-Jeff :)

[Steve Griffin]

Even if you argue there are more table saw and SCMS users than RAS users, could you argue there are 16600% more than RAS users (Tablesaw-Hintz) or 2000% more (CPSC report)?

Yes I could. Those numbers sound low to me. I'm almost certain there are are more than 166 times more man hours put on SCMS saws than radials. This ain't the 1960's, and I haven't seen a Radial on a job site for 10 years.

-Steve

[John Coloccia]

A SCMS is more convenient to move than a RAS, so why would you see a RAS at a jobsite? That's kind of the whole point of the SCMS, in spite of what someone said earlier, isn't it? A SCMS climb cuts as well, btw.

Let me also mention that the woodworking tool accident rate for non-woodworkers approaches 0% (I'm sure someone's stubbed their toe on a drill press base somewhere so it's not exactly 0%), so the accident rate for woodworkers on all tools is probably thousands of times greater than non-woodworkers. This would lead you to believe that woodworking is a high risk activity and all of us should be whittling with a pocket knife (I don't know what the whittling accident rates are). And that's complete nonsense. The accident rates say nothing of what operation was being performed, what safeties were in place, the experience of the operator, the kind of blade, did they just come back from knocking back a few beers at lunch, etc.

Also, whenever you start comparing any quantities numerically, there's always going to emerge an ordering, i.e. this one's better than that one and worse than this one. Uhm, so what? You can look at the accident rates of various kinds of chisels and arbitrarily decide that you're not going to use the bottom 10% of dangerous chisels. Does that make sense? I don't think it does.

So I guess I'm saying that it's far more useful to discuss various dangers of certain tools and the techniques which eliminate those dangers than it is to try and make some sort of numerical case for or against the tool.

[Dean Ousterhout]

Thanks for all the thoughts. Much of it confirms what I was thinking and I think for now I will stay with what I have. I am a weekend hobbyist and have no plans to build cabinets large scale.

[Will Overton]

There is no one tool that is necessary in every shop. That said, my ras would be one of the last tools to go if I had to downsize. In fact, it was the first tool I replaced after moving in 2005.

I believe that if only folks who actually owned a radial arm saw, at least for a while, were allowed to respond to questions like this, you would see a lot less negative comments. At the very least folks should be required to start their post with;

> From personal experience ...
> I saw with my own eyes ...
> I'm repeating something I read ...
> I'm repeating something I heard ...

Or

> I'm making this up because I like to hear myself talk ...



With these guidelines, I believe the ras would be seen in a better light. :)

[Steven Green]

I couldn't live without my radial arm saw. I grew up using one and in the fifty years I've been around them I only saw one accident. Just out of curiosity I checked on the accident figures for table saws and radial arms. The Consumer Product Saftety Commision in 2001 listed 38000 table saw injuries, and 4060 Radial Arm injuries. While I think some of that can be explained by the number of table saws vs. radial arms it still is a significant spread between the two machines. IMHO for what it's worth.

[Roger Bullock]

For me a RAS is a no. You mentioned you have a Delta 12 CMS, I have the SCMS set up on a built-in work station with 6 ft. both left and right of the saw. It cuts 90% of what I make with the other 10% going on the table saw with a crosscut sled. The Delta also comes with an adjustable blade depth so half laps or dado cuts can be made with multiple passes without having to set up a dado blade.

[Frank Drew]

I agree with Rod Sheridan: A sliding table saw can take care of virtually all your in-shop sawing needs, and you can keep a portable miter saw tucked away somewhere for jobsite work, or to use inside or outside to break down some longer boards as you bring them into the shop (or use your skilsaw for that.) In twenty-five years in my own shop I never missed not having a radial arm saw, but I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I upgraded to the slider :D.

[Dave MacArthur]

All the statistics in this thread are faulty. Absolute numbers of accidents is meaningless without being converted to a RATE, and total numbers of RAS vs. tablesaws is not germane to calculate a rate. The only way to compare these numbers is this:
# of accidents on RAS / # of cuts attempted on RAS
vs.
# of accidents on TS / # of cuts attempted on TS

which might even further be broken down into TYPE of cuts for each one, as certainly certain cuts are more dangerous on each. Without knowing the number of times each tool is used per accident, it really doesn't matter how many of said tools are laying around unused in shops... because it's difficult to gather the real data on # of cuts per tool, a HUGE and INVALID assumption is made that "presence of the tool = equal #s of cuts". Bogus.

Oh, to qualify my remarks in the style of Will Overton (not a bad idea too!), I have a degree in mathematics, statistics and probability, and a degree in Operations Research. And 20 years of experience in USAF Safety working with accident rates of various machines and activities.

As an unsupported guess, looking at the total accident numbers and just guessing, I would absolutely say I'd expect the RATE of accidents to be higher from RAS than tablesaw. The total numbers of accidents reported were 16.5 times more on TS than RAS (38,000 vs. 2,300), and I would certainly guess that there are at least 16.52 times as many cuts made on a TS as on a RAS in the data area.

Additionally,
In 2003 the Consumer Product Safety Commission estimated that “93,880 saw-related injuries were treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms”. What was their ACTUAL data sample, and their methodology? How many hospitals did they actually gather data from and then extrapolate to the total # of hospitals in the US? How long a period did they gather from? What area of the country, was there bias towards safe use of one tool vs. another in that area? How did they know which type of saw was used, I very much doubt hospital admission folks are accurately and correctly writing down "Sliding Miter" vs. "Compound Miter" vs. "Radial Arm Saw" vs. "Sliding table" vs. "table saw" vs. "circular saw"---when it was unclear which saw caused accident, how did they handle the data? Throw it out? Attribute it to one category vs. the other? One look at CraigsList and people who clearly USE these tools daily will convince you they don't know the proper name for their bansaw/ban saw/bain saw etc...

I'd guess folks at the hospital weren't diligently wading through years of reports and sending in data, and also that CPSC doesn't have but a few folks working on this, and thus their data sample was probably just a few hospitals, a reduced time-frame, probably a skewed sample from some other administrative filing procedure we know nothing about. I'd expect those stats to have been vastly extrapolated with a very low sureness of accuracy... which by the way, if alpha and beta (accuracy and surety of accuracy) aren't reported in a statistic, it's bogus to start with...

Sorry, just hate to see folks blindly assume published numbers have more meaning than they do, or use them wrong...

Oh yeah, having used a RAS and sliding miter (but not owned a RAS), I myself would not give up the shop space for one, but it was nice to have available in a large shop when making cabinets.

[Paul Murphy]

If I ever stumbled across a bargain on one of the old industrial RAS I might buy it. Like previously mentioned they were seriously well built, and the ability to crosscut a board wider than 12", or a beam thicker than 4" would sometimes be handy. I don't need one though, and have no use for the smaller consumer grade RAS.

[Steven Hsieh]

You couldn't cut a 10 ft board on the table saw, that's why its rough cut on radical saw to length where it's easy to cut on the table saw.

[Van Huskey]

How did I know this would be a long thread... :D

I have kept a Craftsman RAS for more than 25 years and for the vast majority of that time it has been set up at 90* as a cross-cut saw. A uni-tasker that takes up a decent amount of room but really does excel at its one task. It also is a pleasure to use cutting dados. I consider it a luxury evidenced by the fact I have never replaced it with a more capable saw. A CSMS will cover most of the function I use it for but for simple crosscuts I always use it instead of my CSMS. They can be useful tools but there isn't anything it does one of the other basic machines in a shop won't do add to that the number of excellent fine furniture builders that don't have one in their shop it would seem it is absolutely not "NECESSARY" but many people find them useful.

[Paul Comi]

In my latest incarnation of a shop, I have a 1940 DeWalt radial arm and a DeWalt 12" sliding miter saw.

I used to have a unisaw with the 72" fence and I have used a wide variety of sleds and miter gauges with the saw, but I find that I much prefer doing crosscuts on everything I can on the radial arm. Its quiet compared to the miter saw and my cuts are more accurate. I wanted more room in my shop and the long fence just was taking up too much room. I ended up shortening my saw to a fence length of 36" and made a dual router station, but not until I cleared out the shop and dropped in a wooden floor because my back was killing me working on a hard cold cement floor.

This is my second radial arm. My first was a Delta and I never trusted the saw. It was a 16" saw and regardless of the time I took to dial it in using the Mr Sawdust book methods I never felt comfortable using it and didn't trust it. From the first day with the DeWalt it was obvious to me that it was much more stable and once I put a WWI wally kunkle blade on it I have enjoyed using it for all my crosscuts.

[Frank Drew]

You couldn't cut a 10 ft board on the table saw...

Who can't? Remove the fence and use your miter gauge, table saw sled, or sliding table to crosscut the board -- done and done. All that's necessary is sufficient room to the right and/or left of the blade, but that also applies to radial arm saws.

And you certainly can't crosscut a 4' wide panel on your RAS :cool:.

[This is from the perspective of people with limited shop space; if you've got a large shop with tons of free space, then, sure, why not get a good RAS.]

[Mike Harrison]

Charlie, WELL SAID, good research.

I've had a RAS for 9+ years now and can't imagine not having one. Mine is setup on a bench with my SCMS using a common fence. My Crapsman RAS was given to me by a friend. I didn't use a negative hook blade, and used the same blades as the table saw. Once in a great while I'd check the cut to ensure it was still square and plumb, but thats all. I took the time to precisely set it up when I first put it in service and it never gave me any surprises or problems.
http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv62/mikeinkcmo/WW%20tools/RAS%20Miter%20bench/P10100042.jpg

I now have a 12" Delta Turret saw so I don't use the TS blades any more, but I just use regular TS rip and CC blades. I straight line rough lumber with the RAS and a sled since I don't have room for doing so at the TS.

[Neal Clayton]

Who can't? Remove the fence and use your miter gauge, table saw sled, or sliding table to crosscut the board -- done and done. All that's necessary is sufficient room to the right and/or left of the blade, but that also applies to radial arm saws.

And you certainly can't crosscut a 4' wide panel on your RAS :cool:.

[This is from the perspective of people with limited shop space; if you've got a large shop with tons of free space, then, sure, why not get a good RAS.]


yeah, but what if you have a 10 foot long window frame, or door frame with a transom, that needs crosscut dadoes in it?

yeah you could router them with a jig i suppose. but considering i only paid 300 bucks for my massive RAS i don't think it'll take me long to save 300 dollars worth of time with the RAS.

better RAS's that have accurate stops back at zero are also excellent for miters, since they're much more accurate than modern plastic/aluminum miter saws.

[Tom Rick]

The SCMS is a "radial arm saw", and has won out in the every shop that has no need for the larger traditional ancestor.

So for me yes- my Hitachi 8" radial arm saw is essential equipment in my shop.
It will do fine miters and shoulder work all the way up to chopping as large of planks as ever see the inside of my shop.

As a professional wood worker, I have always found it odd that so many RAS's are found in home maintainance type shops. They are often the only large power tool around. If I were to equip a home shop, there is no way that I would end up in choosing the RAS as the one stationary tool.
I think the RAS was sort of a suburban culture thing- "You putting a shop in your garage?" "Get yourself a good radial arm saw"....
There is a no doubt a 60's Popular Mechanics write up on the "Versatile Radial Arm Saw" that led the way.

If I started doing built ins and other more standard custom cabinet shop jobs I would consider getting a large RAS in my shop again. For the work I currently do- no need.
So let your projects define what is "Necessary".

[Bill White]

Got mine in 1978. Yep, its a Craftsman. Took me a while to get it set correctly but, once set, I was well pleased. Got my first TS about 3 yrs. ago. I use both RAS and TS in my projects.
Bill

[glenn bradley]

Is a RAS a necessary Shop Component?Not if you have to ask :). As you notice there are multiple schools of thought and levels of enthusiasm for the RAS. It will vary in value depending on the type of work you do. I make furniture and don't use a RAS or a chop-saw. The required footprint doesn't pay its own way in my shop. YMMV.

[Lynn Floyd]

I grew up framing houses, where a Dewalt or Comet radial arm saw was almost indespensible for cutting studs, cripples, and headers. If you have a long wall in the shop, a radial arm saw is handy, but not necessary. Unless I had a lot of long cut-off work to do, I would probably dedicate money and space to other things, such as a hollow chisel mortiser or similar machine.
Lynn

[Kirk Poore]

I think it depends on what you're doing. I routinely crosscut 8-10' sycamore 2x16's, make trapezoidal parts from 1x6's, do 15 degree bevel cuts, and cut tenon shoulders and dadoes with my RAS. I maybe use the miter gauge on my tablesaw once or twice a year, so little that I really need to replace the combo blade with a good rip blade. The dust collection is pretty good, and it's loud but not a screamer.

On the other hand, I almost never use sheet goods, and when I do I break them down with a circular saw. So something like, say, a big sliding tablesaw would be not only extravagant but an inconvenience.

Kirk

[Dan Karachio]

Can I ask a dumb question? Isn't the contemporary sliding miter saw essentially a replacement or the "new version" of a RAS? With a good set up, can't you use a sliding miter saw to do the same in terms of rapid repetitive cuts? I realize you can't put a dado blade on a miter saw, but otherwise, it seems like the same tasks can be accomplished with the miter saw. Then again, a Festool TS 55 and a MFT do the same type of cross cutting and other cuts. I guess my point is there are so many options, though none are exactly the same.

[Joe Bradshaw]

While reading through the above posts about having a RAS, I lost my mind and bought a Dewalt model GP RAS. As soon as I get my mind back, I will post some pics.

[Neal Clayton]

Can I ask a dumb question? Isn't the contemporary sliding miter saw essentially a replacement or the "new version" of a RAS? With a good set up, can't you use a sliding miter saw to do the same in terms of rapid repetitive cuts? I realize you can't put a dado blade on a miter saw, but otherwise, it seems like the same tasks can be accomplished with the miter saw. Then again, a Festool TS 55 and a MFT do the same type of cross cutting and other cuts. I guess my point is there are so many options, though none are exactly the same.

not really, for the dado'ing reasons. modern SCMSs do have depth stops of some sort typically, but they are not accurate from my experience. on my bosch it's just a simple threaded rod that runs into the aluminum column. only problem is the column has as much as a 1/16th of flex, so the depth stop is all but useless.

a RAS will have a rigid, accurate depth control mechanism. you can cut dadoes as accurately on a RAS as you can on a table saw.

[Chip Lindley]

All the statistics in this thread are faulty. Absolute numbers of accidents is meaningless without...

I have a degree in mathematics, statistics and probability, and a degree in Operations Research. And 20 years of experience in USAF Safety working with accident rates of various machines and activities.

As an unsupported guess, looking at the total accident numbers and just guessing, I would absolutely say I'd expect the RATE of accidents to be higher from RAS than tablesaw. The total numbers of accidents reported were 16.5 times more on TS than RAS (38,000 vs. 2,300), and I would certainly guess that there are at least 16.52 times as many cuts made on a TS as on a RAS in the data area.


Bean Counters never were any Fun! But..but...isn't a mathematical statistician making guessesa bit of an oxymoron?

[Kirk Poore]

Bean Counters never were any Fun! But..but...isn't a mathematical statistician making guesses a bit of an oxymoron?

Certainly not. Any mathematical theorem has two parts, the hypothesis and the conclusion. To reach the conclusion, one would be required to prove the hypothesis.

And what is a hypothesis? A guess, of course.:)

Kirk

[Dave MacArthur]

LOL... unless you count every single one of something, it's always a guess to some extent or another. I'm reminded of that every time I play Black Jack and lose, or some bozo across the table from me draws what he needs to an inside straight...
:)

Boy, I sure hope this thread doesn't end up making me want one of these RAS, I totally don't have room for it, but my willpower is growing weak... must...check... CraigsList ....

[Kirk Poore]

Boy, I sure hope this thread doesn't end up making me want one of these RAS, I totally don't have room for it, but my willpower is growing weak... must...check... CraigsList ....

Don't look if you really don't want to know.
http://www.shanewhitlock.com/photo/v/misc/dewaltras/IMG_4316.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=2

Oh, and this one's a little less conventional:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_nh7rpc89jO0/S93bdmohCyI/AAAAAAAAI1A/JYIqqVkJRBk/s800/IMG_0844.JPG

Kirk

[Ben Cadotte]

My first shop was so small that I had to make a choice of 1 machine. And that was for a table saw. With a 10" slider miter on a bench for easy quick crosscuts. My new shop is about 3x bigger. One of the first things I did is get a Craftsman RAS. It was more of a convient tool than a need to have tool. At first, my plans were for using it for rough work. I figured a RAS is not that accurate and a Craftsman being a low priced tool would not be that accurate. After a few ah-ha moments, I have come to trust the saw for accurate cuts. First when I assembled it I took my time to align everything very well. And 3 years later I have not had to readjust anything yet. Second thing was buying a RAS blade. This made a big difference in controlling the saw. And the Third thing that made an improvement was eventually trying what I thought was a gimmic on the saw. And it turns out its a good option. My saw came with what I think they call Cut Control System. It's basically just an electric winch that controls the outfeed of the saw carriage. I thought it was a gimmic. But now I am a believer. It works very well. It controls how fast the saw carriage can extend out (crosscutting). It is vairable speed so you can select how fast it allows the carriage to move. I believe this allows for better more accurate cuts as you no longer have to tense up your arm prepared to hold back the saw if its starts to climb. You can just easily pull the trigger (to activate the cut control). And just easily pull the carriage through the cut. You impart no sideways force to the saw. Allowing it to slide out straighter.
The table saw gets the most use. But I am using the RAS on just about every project as well. If you have the room and funds to get one. I would say its worth it.

[David Giles]

What would you do with a RAS that you can't do today with your other equipment? Seriously, with your tool collection, you must be an experienced woodworker. What purpose would it serve?

[Rich Tesoroni]

I wonder if I'll get a RPC big enough to run the 14", 5HP Dewalt RAS I have sitting in the garage before this thread ends?

Rich

[Keith Avery]

I recently bought a 13 year old 16" Delta RAS. It had some rust and rough bearings but after about 40 hours of enjoyable rehab I am getting close to firing it up. It weighs about 800 lbs and is defintely the highest quality power tool I own. It is in a totally different league from my Jet cabinet tablesaw(which I love). I do not believe blade climbing would be possible there is zero play in the turret. The blade, guard, and motor weigh at least 150 lbs and it is smooth as silk when you pull it. Of course, this tool cost about as much new as all my other power tools combined. I don't have a space limitation and I am really looking forward to 25+ inches of crosscut. I must admit though, that I hadn't thought seriously about getting an RAS until I saw it on craigslist. I couldn't pass it up for $225.

[Tom Cornish]

A SCMS climb cuts as well, btw.

Sorry for coming late to the party, but I didn't see this challenged anywhere else in the thread. While certainly a SCMS can be made to climb cut, I've never had to do that - pull saw carriage towards you, start motor, lower saw, push saw towards fence. What operations require climb cutting with a SCMS?

Add me to the list of "don't need a RAS". My dad had one that I used as a kid, and now that I have a SCMS, I've never looked back.

[Erik Christensen]

I have both SCMS & RAS on the same wall of my shop. I have the room so I choose to have both having used both for years.

The SCMS is easier to change angles and is my go to tool for a quick cut or 2. When I have a couple dozen drawer sides to cut to the same exact length the RAS is the tool. Easier & more natural arm motion for production use, motor runs continuously, better dust collection, larger table makes it easier to slide things around while staying away from the spinning blade, etc.

So to answer the question asked "Is it necessary" - no. Does it do some things better than any other tool - yes.

could you get use out of one enough to justify the space (used ones cost basically nothing) depends entirely on how much production stuff you do IMO.

[Alan Lightstone]

Sold my Craftsman RAS on CL, bought a Festool SCMS. Couldn't be happier with my decision.

YMMV.

[Keith Hankins]

Hello Creekers,

I read a lot of posts about a RAS and just wondered what your thoughts are about building a shop and what place the RAS has in it?

I have the following:


a Delta Unisaw with a 72 inch fence
Jessem router table, soon to have a 7518
6" jointer, I know... I need to go to at least 8"
12" Dewalt Compound miter, that is planned for a cutoff station
bench drill press
Performax 24" drum sander
Shopsmith 5 in one tool
Shopsmith 12" planer
Delta 14" bandsaw
bunch of hand tools, power tools, multiple routers
Clearvue cyclone
Do I need a RAS? I have never used one so I don't know, but I am organizing a wood shop in my 2 car garage, and after I get the stuff arranged, I am thinking I won't want to move it around, although I am planning on french cleating everything on the walls so there will be flexibility later.

Thoughts???

It will cut wide stuff, and when I first started they were in regular use it was a good combo tool for ripping crosscutting miters etc. I've moved way past that now, and I have a kapex SCMS for that purpose and a cabinet saw so she's been in the garage as a glorified table for several years now. I've tried selling it on craigs list and no go. I've offered it as low as 150 bucks to cover my forrest blade on it, and still no takers.

[John Piwaron]

I believe that if only folks who actually owned a radial arm saw, at least for a while, were allowed to respond to questions like this, you would see a lot less negative comments. At the very least folks should be required to start their post with;

> From personal experience ...

With these guidelines, I believe the ras would be seen in a better light. :)

Or not.

From personal experience. . . . I once owned a Craftsman Radial Arm saw. It was nice for crosscutting. Super for cross cut dados. And lousy for all the other things it was supposed to do. Even better, it had no guard at all on the lower half of the blade. Not the slightest anything to warn your hand at least "Danger Will Robinson!" It would in fact do a ripping operation but no where near as well as a table saw.

But it just wouldn't stay in alignment. check, recheck and check again. I'd get a little time with it being o.k. but then something happens. set it to miter and then return to zero. No, uh, uh, out of alignment.

It was the lack of a guard that got me. It cut off the end of my pinky finger on the left hand right after a ripping operation.

So I sold it and got a table saw. Which is probably the tool I should have had in the first place for what I liked to do. Quite a while after that I bought a CMS. 'Cuz cross cutting of large boards on the TS is a bear.

After selling it there was that recall Sears had for those saws. So it would have gone anyway.

[Jonathan Spool]

Is a tablesaw a necessary piece of shop equipment? Many Festool users don't think so. I'm a hedger, so I have all four (RAS; Tablesaw; Panelsaw; Festtool )! None are necessary as long as I have my hand saws, but they sure are convenient!

[John Coloccia]

Sorry for coming late to the party, but I didn't see this challenged anywhere else in the thread. While certainly a SCMS can be made to climb cut, I've never had to do that - pull saw carriage towards you, start motor, lower saw, push saw towards fence. What operations require climb cutting with a SCMS?

No, you're right. I was mistaken.

[Jack Pinkham]

Wally Kunkel, AKA Mr. Sawdust, wrote:

"Most of the trouble stems from: Table-saw vs. Radial-Arm
saw.

Almost anybody can operate a tablesaw because he understands one thing: HE will have to PUSH the board for
every cut he makes. This also means that he is completely
responsible for the results he gets. If his cross-cuts are a little off-square or his miters have a little gap between them, he
has no one to blame but himself! The machine, of course, could have done it perfectly — if only he were more professional.
And he accepts that as a fact. Not so with a radial-saw. That machine is always assumed to be at fault — never the operator. Oddly enough, this is not far from the truth. But the real
truth is that the operator knows too little about his machine. And, over the past 30 years (specifically, since B&D bought it), there were too few places for him to go for knowledgeable help.
Long gone are the days when machine and tool manufacturers vied for position and acceptance in front of the public — in an actual win-or-lose struggle. Virtually gone is the dealer who can professionally demonstrate a radial-saw (even a table saw!), professionally align it, and guide the customer toward the satisfaction for which he is paying. Equally unfortunate
is the fact that over 20 different makes of radial-saws have come and gone (or should go!) — each one sucking up little or large portions of the market — and few of them deserving of a crumb.
The abilities of a DeWalt (and I speak only of DeWalts throughout this book) are almost unbelievable.."

continued at: http://www.mrsawdust.com/pdf/Sawdust_Chap1.pdf

[Bill Leonard]

Well, I'll pile on and get called for unnecesary roughness. Years ago I had a Craftsman RAS. An absolutely useless POS. Abandoned it after several years of non use. Truly abandoned it. Moved to new home and just left it behind. I own two SCMS, along with the other sundry WW tools. Bandsaw, PM66, shaper, planer etc,etc. About a year ago, in a weak moment, I purchased an old Delta 9inch RAS at auction for $45.00. I took the time, with Mr. Sawdust's assistance, to tune it properly, and replaced the table per Mr. Kunkle's design. What a pleasure to use. Dead on accurate and totally repeatable on all cuts. I have not used either SCMS since. Do you need a RAS? Probably not. Would you use one if it were tuned properly, and you took the time to learn its capabilities? I expect so. I like mine.

[Bob Aquino]

Don't look if you really don't want to know.
http://www.shanewhitlock.com/photo/v/misc/dewaltras/IMG_4316.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=2

Oh, and this one's a little less conventional:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_nh7rpc89jO0/S93bdmohCyI/AAAAAAAAI1A/JYIqqVkJRBk/s800/IMG_0844.JPG

Kirk


Wow, thats my saw. I'm not sure how less conventional it is, I just painted it something other than delta gray. The wooden bits are due to having to replace some missing arms with bolts and wanting to make them less obtrusive.

But back to the original question, do you need one? Probably not. But if you get your hands on one of the better models such as one of these older Deltas or a Dewalt, you will be pleasantly surprised to how well it works and how accurate it can be. Sliding miter saws are similar, but their construction is mostly aluminum tubing, lightweight castings and plastic. I doubt you would see one of those machines in anything close to serviceable condition in 50 years (which is how old my delta is). But ours is a throwaway society and most folks dont want to pay for the workmanship and materials that go into one of these saws if they were built new today

I had one of the old sears saws, was a POS and I sold it about ten years ago. Had a 12" PC CMS mounted where the RAS is now for a while, but I never really liked it all that much. It was replaced by a Dewalt MBF which I bought for 25 bucks and rebuilt. That was a sweet little saw but was a bit underpowered at 3/4 hp. This Delta is a 30C from the early 60's with a full 2hp motor. It spins a 10" blade and could spin 12" if it had a different blade shroud. I am much more inclined to want to use this saw than I was the CMS, even for small piece work that could be done on the TS. And as somebody else mentioned, dust collection is much better since the dust stream mostly goes straight back from the blade.

Here is the predecessor of the 30C, an MBF:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_nh7rpc89jO0/SxGJiP-VtxI/AAAAAAAAIDA/-Gl6VoG8FNw/s800/P1040399.JPG

And speaking of unconventional, here is one of Kirk's machines in a less than traditional paint scheme: ;)
http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/902-B.jpg

[Kirk Poore]

I'll have you know, Bob, that as near as I could determine during the restoration, that jointer was originally that color red. Maybe not with the black & yellow highlights, but red it definitely was.:)

Kirk
who needs to put up a more current shot of the jointer with the motor in place, etc...

[David Woodruff]

Ditto exactly what Charlie V said, had one and that's enough. Had means past tense. Maybe the 12" $2,000.00 jobs are accurate. My TS, BS, HP, MP, DP, all work great.

[Tom Welch]

Might as well put in my 2 cents also, every one else has. For me it is a luxury. I have a Original Saw 12" that can cross cut 24". I love it for squaring up panels, cutting doors to final size (cabinet doors). And when I put a dado blade on and used with my bench with adj stops on the rail, I can cut dados on cabinet panels all day long with ease and very accurate.
Do I need it, no, but neither do I need the 10' panel saw on one of the walls in the shop either, but is sure makes working in the shop more fun and easer. Nor, the 3 shapers, nor the ................ I think you get the picture. But it is always more fun to play when you have more toys to play with.

[Mike Heidrick]

16" Delta RAS owner here. It is a luxary for sure. It will crosscuts 29" and I use it square up panels and use it with a dado stack to remove the waste from my V-inlays before sanding. It has really come in handy many times making signs. I really like using it. It is a beast that stays exactly where you put it in every sense. If you have never used a big industrial one it is quite an experience the first time you fire one up. The next time you eat a 16" pizza imagine that is teh blade on your RAS. Crazy part is I have found Freud and Forrest blades for it cheaper than for my tablesaw :eek: Thanks amazon.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/P1033684.jpg