Full Disclosure: Sharpening Learning Curve

[Jared McMahon]

It's Friday. If you can't admit bone-headed mistakes today, then when?

I broke down and bought a couple Shapton Glassstones recently, took them out, and without giving it a second though proceeded to use them for several days just as I had seen them in most pictures: with the print facing up. After realizing the error, I turned them over and my initial experience with the actual abrasive side has been quite positive. Also, it's quite alarming to me that I was able to make some degree of progress honing on the glass base.

Much more experimentation to come, but I think I made a very solid choice going with Glassstones and the Veritas Mk II honing guide.

Jared

[Tony Shea]

LOL, thats some good stuff right there. I like the fact you're willing to admit the mistake amongst all these top notch WW's around us as well, good for you. You must have been pretty upset with your pricey stone's performance after a while of just slipping across the surface. Thanks for the good laugh, unfortunatly at your expense. Good luck with your stones and I agree that you've made a very wise choice with your decision to go with Shapton.

[george wilson]

An OLD way to sharpen Gillette type razor blades was supposed to be whirling them around in a glass. The inside curve of the glass was supposed to let the cutting edge of the blades touch the glass. I doubt it worked. You read all kinds of crazy things in old books of formulae.

[Zach England]

My shapton stones work on both sides...are these different?

[Sam Takeuchi]

If you have Shapton Professional or M series, then yes, these are different. These are different line of products and both side will work. Glass series has a glass plate on one side as name suggests and they are not differentiated by color like the Pro or M series. Glass stones are all white.

[Mark Lawrence]

The glass stones are excellent. Just make sure you regularly flatten those them.I try to do it before every use. Put some pencil marks across the stones and flatten till gone.

[john brenton]

I suppose just as we refer to flatness and sharpness in relative terms, I suppose there is no such thing as "non abrasive". I don't know it glass actually has an abrasive quality, or if its just the smothness and hardness, but it does work when it comes to honing, just like a burnisher or a good knife steel rod. I think it was Ron Hocks book where he mentioned using a milk bottle neck as an old remedy to sharpen up a pair of scissors. You won't be removing any material, but it will hone or burnish what is there if the edge just needs a little wetting.

[Zach England]

If you have Shapton Professional or M series, then yes, these are different. These are different line of products and both side will work. Glass series has a glass plate on one side as name suggests and they are not differentiated by color like the Pro or M series. Glass stones are all white.

Mine look like the "professional" series. Would the glass ones offer any advantages over these?

[Sam Takeuchi]

Some people say they do, but I don't know how much difference it makes in a realistic sense. At least I'm not sure if you'll achieve measurable improvement over Pro series in terms of end result. Glass stones are claimed to have new formulation which cuts modern steel, i.e. A2, better and so on. Incidentally, Pro series catalog has even more extensive charts explaining which stone will be suitable for various types of steel and tools. And Pro stones works very well on A2 also, so if you are already using Pro stones, unless you get Glass stones for free, I highly doubt it'll be worthwhile to make the leap.

Glass is supposed to provide support for the stone, so even the last few millimeter of stone can be used without stone breaking. It may be an advantage over more conventional stone, but that alone certainly doesn't make people ditch their stones and replace them with Glass stones. Glass stones are more expensive than Pro.

[Matt Radtke]

Glass stones are more expensive than Pro.

Really? Doesn't match up with my recent research, I'm considering buying some, so if you know where I can get them cheaper, please do tell!

If anything, I thought the glass stones were cheaper because there is less stone, thanks to the glass backing.

[John Coloccia]

It's Friday. If you can't admit bone-headed mistakes today, then when?

I broke down and bought a couple Shapton Glassstones recently, took them out, and without giving it a second though proceeded to use them for several days just as I had seen them in most pictures: with the print facing up. After realizing the error, I turned them over and my initial experience with the actual abrasive side has been quite positive. Also, it's quite alarming to me that I was able to make some degree of progress honing on the glass base.

Much more experimentation to come, but I think I made a very solid choice going with Glassstones and the Veritas Mk II honing guide.

Jared

I still remember my first guitar. I wish I still had it or could at least remember the brand. It was sort of shaped like a strat, but it only had one pickup and a volume knob. Oh how my parents must have loved me to save up and by that thing, even if it was a piece of junk. I do remember that it had something of a sunburst finish, but the ugliest pick guard I ever saw in my life. It was this nasty brown colored thing.

A couple of years later, the pick guard started peeling off. It was OK, though. Underneath the ugly brown pick guard (made out of thin paper, incidentally) was a much nicer tortoise pick guard. Yes, I had the protective paper on it for years until it finally started coming off on it's own.

[Stuart Tierney]

Really? Doesn't match up with my recent research, I'm considering buying some, so if you know where I can get them cheaper, please do tell!

If anything, I thought the glass stones were cheaper because there is less stone, thanks to the glass backing.

Almost without exception, anywhere on this little blue planet, Shapton Glass Stones are more expensive than the equivalent grit Professional stone.

(And please believe me when I say I have seen more prices attached to these two types of stone than most folks.)

Note, I did not say 'equivalent stone' but 'equivalent grit'. I've used both to an arguably limited degree, and I remain completely underwhelmed at what the Glass Stone brings to the table over and above the Professional series and it only gets worse when you start looking at stones other than Shaptons.

The only reason I would recommend Glass stones would be in a mobile tool kit where space and weight are at a premium, or if I didn't like you very much.


There is bound to be some reason why you can again buy Shapton professional stones with English language wrappers on them, and I can't imagine them being made available again to the North American market if the Professional series were distinctively inferior stones to the Glass stones.


But what do I know about Sharpening stones? :confused:

[Sam Takeuchi]

If anything, I thought the glass stones were cheaper because there is less stone, thanks to the glass backing.

They charge an arm and a leg for that piece of glass. They aren't going to let you off the hook just because stone itself is thinner.

I'm not against the Glass stones, though. I think they are good stones and perfectly capable of achieving very good edge. I just don't think its purported capability is significantly or noticeably better than the Pro line, especially when prices are significantly higher for much less usable stone.

[David Weaver]

But what do I know about Sharpening stones? :confused:

To specify what the issue is. The glasstones cut high carbon steel extremely well.

They cut A2 OK, too.

They will cut higher alloy steels if you have the time to do it, but they clearly don't do it as well as the professional stones do (which also cut high carbon steel and A2 just fine).

If you sharpen more high alloy stuff (tougher than A2) than high carbon stuff, then there are other mediums that do better with the high alloy than the professional stones, and much better than the glasstones.

Look around for the pro stones (check ebay and out of country). I paid $90 shipped for my 15k pro stone, and about $78 shipped for the 5k stone (which is not necessary, but nice to have). My understanding is that most shaptons that are sold here (that aren't brought directly from japan) come through a distributor, and you would rather avoid paying someone to bring in something and add a layer of cost when it can easily be shipped right from the source.

There isn't a situation where I'd buy a glasstone over a pro stone if you're going the shapton route, though if you sharpen pretty much just high carbon and A2, I guess it doesn't matter for anything other than the fact that you're getting 1/3rd the abrasive in the glasstone.

All of that said, if there weren't pro stones, I'd use a glasstone (I do have some of them, and I have checked a 16k glasstone next to a 15k pro stone and taken steel that's cutting well and checked against the other, and steel that's not cutting well and checked against the other).

I would never buy anything from shapton that says 30k on it, for two reasons.
1) I used the 30k stone and the 16k and my 15k pro and could not tell a difference in subjective sharpness nor in the surface finish of the wood being planed
2) if you really want to go half micron or less, there are much cheaper ways to do it, and those ways cut steel with harder carbides than the glasstone

Alex Gilmore's fabulous sharpening page has nice close up pictures that show you what's really going on with the stones:

http://thejapanblade.com/test8.htm

Does the difference look like $300-$450 worth to anyone?

Same issue with the DLRP and the DGLP - The atoma does the same thing for a fraction of the cost, and effectively as quickly if you don't ever put steel to the atoma, and is also dead flat. No reason to waste money on them.

[David Weaver]

Just looked on peebay - there are two sellers from japan who are selling them for the same or less than I paid.

Given that I have a sneaking suspicion that what they call a 12,000 stone and what they call a 15,000 stone are the same stone.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think it's the same. Cream with yellow case, ye?

[David Weaver]

Yes. In my case, it said 15,000 on it, but the stone and the case look identical, except for the number inked on the top of it.

I may have pitched the plastic case. I glued my stone to a piece of kingwood and put rubber feet on it. It's MILES better to use now.

[Matt Radtke]

Almost without exception, anywhere on this little blue planet, Shapton Glass Stones are more expensive than the equivalent grit Professional stone.

Okay, I must be blind then, because I don't see it. On eBay, I searched for (without quotes) "shapton 8000"--a pretty simple test. The results I got were (before shipping) $79.99, $82.00, $88.00, and $112.00.

The 8000 glass stone can be had from WoodCraft for $88.00 and free shipping.

I guess I don't see this massive price difference. What are you guys paying for 4000 and 8000 stones? (I pick those just because they'll likely be my purchase.)

Is this the difference between the HR and HC lines of glass stones? If so, what's the difference?

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Matt,

Looks like that ship has sailed. Not too long ago, they were $88 IIRC.

BTW, the Glass Stones can be had cheaper than Woodcraft. Google Shapton 8000 and you will see. ;)


The only thing I can pin on the price being higher now is that the US-Yen rate is off the charts, in a very bad direction. I'd expect that once the Glass Stones are priced at the proper rate, they will go through the roof.


By all means, get the Glass Stones. I am not saying they are a bad stone, they are in fact quite good. But given a choice, for the same money, I'd take a Pro every time. Heck, for a little more money, I'd still take a Professional stone.

But then again, I don't use Shapton stones as a rule. I do have 6 of them here, 5 of them used only by me, only for testing purposes. Once I am done, they are out the door, cheap. Or I may keep them on hand since they are good and make for a solid benchmark by which to compare all others.

Oh, the High Rockwell is a standard Glass Stone, the High Carbon is a polishing variant. Slightly less durable binder, slightly less durable abrasive, more polishing ability. If the #8K GS is your final sharpening device, then the HC would be my suggestion.


Hope that helps,

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Is this the difference between the HR and HC lines of glass stones? If so, what's the difference?

I don't think there's a huge price difference. We're looking in different spaces, though. I think the biggest reason to get a shapton stone is to get one in the 1 micron size range (the 12/15k pro, or 16k glasstone), because it's about where a wire edge no longer requires any attention, except on high speed steel, maybe.

In that size, I think the glasstone is $100 or something, and the pro stone can be had on ebay for $93 as I checked earlier today, just will take a little longer to get it.

[Matt Radtke]

Once I am done, they are out the door, cheap. Or I may keep them on hand since they are good and make for a solid benchmark by which to compare all others.

Oh, the High Rockwell is a standard Glass Stone, the High Carbon is a polishing variant. Slightly less durable binder, slightly less durable abrasive, more polishing ability. If the #8K GS is your final sharpening device, then the HC would be my suggestion.

Well, you let me know when you're ready to part with those stones then ;-)

I'm actually considering a pro 12k (that one is still cheap on the 'bay), ultimately, but I need to start somewhere.

Currently an oil stone user, generally happy with my results, but I recently tried someone's water stones. Had a complete, "Oh, I see what you're getting at" moment and have been shopping ever since.

[Sam Takeuchi]

You are right, Shapton Pro seem to be priced at unreasonable price range now. I remembered it was pretty reasonable last year. But yen being ridiculously high, it's not a good time to shop for goods out of Japan I suppose. Probably wait until $1 = 100 yen would be good though.

As for me, I paid far less than most of you for Shapton stones since I was living in Japan then. This seller I got it from has the lowest price I've seen on Shapton Pro stones (called Ha no kuromaku over there. Roughly translates to "The Conspirator of the blade") anywhere. It was 4600 yen for a #8000 last year. #12000 was also 4600 yen. Back then exchange rate was $1 = 111 yen, so it would've been $41 for either of those stones. I ordered five Pro stones (220, 1000, 5000, 8000, 12000) and total was 18,500 yen, about $176 at that time. Today, those 8000 and 12000 are still sold for 4600 yen, but that's $57 now, and the 18,500 yen is about $230. Not a good time for shopping, especially since shipping can be painfully high.