Sam Maloof's finish

[Charles Goodnight]

I was looking for guidance on mixing up Sam Maloof type finishes

Right now I am using

1/3 Boiled Linseed Oil
1/3 Minwax semigloss polyurethane varnish
1/3 paint thinner

My questions:

Which is preferable BLO or Tung oil?

What are the best varnish brands?

Any opinions on gloss/semigloss/matt varnish?

Is there an advantage to using old fashioned varnish rather than poly?

Is any old off the shelf paint thinner acceptable, or are there better and worse choices?

My SOP is to rag on the finish, let is sit for a few minutes, then sand off the first coat or two with wet/dry sand paper. Later coats get ragged on and wiped off without the sanding.

[Scott Holmes]

The tung oil will cost more, darken less and dry slow, other than that there is no advantage to tung oil.

There are better varnishes than poly to use in an oil/varnish blend. Poly is for floors.

Oil/varnish blends a.k.a. danish oil, Sam Maloof finish, Minwax antique oil, Watco, Teak oil, etc are all about the same; the cheaper brands use poly as the varnish because it's cheaper. More expensive brands use poly because it increases profit. (about same thing isn't it?)

All will leave soft looking satin finish. A gloss varnish mixed with less BLO will give you a slighly shiner finish but not much. You can't build a film finish with oil/varnish blends.

Paint thinners can differ; but they evaporate so the end result is they don't make a big difference in the oil/varnish blend.

[Prashun Patel]

You really want to use mineral spirits; many paint thinners are naphtha - which 'lighter' mineral spirits, but will be fine for your finish.

Tung oil is lighter than BLO.

I personally like poly in the mix; it gets a bad rap around here, but Maloof's finish is in-the-wood (wiped off) so it does not build. As such the aesthetic differences between poly and other varnishes are minimized.

Satin/gloss/semigloss is an aesthetic choice. Again, because the film is thin, the diff between the 3 is less than if you brushed it on thick. I usually use gloss because there's no flatteners to contend with, which I've always found tricky to 'rag' on.

Wetsanding the first couple coats is a good idea. Wipe it all off.

I love this finish.

[Steve Schoene]

The formula given here is not the Maloof formula. It is the standard oil/varnish mix formula while Maloof indicated that he used equal parts of a gloss varnish, tung oil, and BLO--extra thinner not mentioned. This would be softer than the standard In addition, because of no thinner likely more difficult to apply and wipe off. The basic look would be the same--after all the thinner evaporates in relatively short order anyway.

I don't see that there is much difference in using naphtha versus mineral spirits. Naphtha just evaporates more quickly but otherwise would thin the mixture about the same.

[Charles Goodnight]

Thanks. You are right. I will give the "correct" formula a try, but I probably will still cut it with some mineral spirits so that I can rub it in more easily. I got some Pratt and Lambert glossy varnish, so I am weaned from poly.

[Pat Barry]

Interested in the comment about poly being for floors. Is this about the gloss polyurethane, because I know that is advertised for floors also, but I didn't think it was exclusively for this. I see poly being used on numerous woodworking shows and it looks good and is durable. I understand its not the authentic old time finish for museum pieces, but it does have a place doesn't it?

[Scott Holmes]

Pat,


I don't have a bias against poly; I do have a bit of a prejudice against poly manufacturers that continue to hype poly way beyond it's true benefits and merits. Poly is not the end-all-be-all finish. Poly is Less water-proof and vapor-proof; it is tough, it is NOT hard. Alkyd and phenolic resin varnishes are much harder than poly. They are also optical clearer, Alkyd is much less likely to yellow; phenolic resin varnishes are very UV stable. Urethane resins (poly) are HIGHLY susceptible to UV damage.

So I ask you WHY do they make POLY varnishes for exterior use? Answer: PROFIT

Poly is the cheapest varnish to make; 99% of all poly’s are made with linseed oil. Varnishes are made by cooking resin and an oil to make a new molecule --- varnish.

The oils are linseed, tung and soya.

Linseed dark and darkens with age; cheap works, well.

Soya (soybean oil) is very light in color and will not darken with age.

Tung oil is between in color and darkens slightly with time. Now here is where Tung oil gets it's real claim to fame....

drum roll please....

Varnish made with Tung oil produces a varnish that is better at waterproofing and better at stopping water-vapor.

Phenolic is the most "UV" stable resin so a varnish made with Tung oil and phenolic resin will be FAR superior to any varnish not made with these products for an exterior spar varnish or marine varnish. An interior varnish made with Tung oil will be superior to any run of the mill poly in a bathroom or kitchen.

Poly has a few traits the manufactures completely skip as they continue to hype the poly (reason is PROFIT) as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Linseed oil - cheap
urethane resin - very cheap

Phenolic resin - expensive
tung oil - expensive

Alkyd resin – some what expensive etc...

POLY does not stick well to itself, or anything else for that matter. That's why directions say to sand between coats; if you don't you may have adhesion problems, the sanding gives the surface enough tooth for the poly to stick.

Other varnishes sanding between coats is only if it's needed to make it smooth and flat.

Poly is cloudy compared to other varnishes.

Poly can't be buffed up; it's too tough, not hard enough.

Poly doesn't blend well with itself.

POLY IS my choice for floors and stairs!

As for the woodworking shows and magazines saying it's the cat's meow of finishes and that all they use... THINK "advertising dollars" then think about the reason they SAY that they use it...

Ditto for "Tung oil" as the oil of choice for an oil finish... Advertising money it pushing it. BLO does the same thing; costs 1/3 the money, and cures much faster.

Sorry to get on my soap box; some people (I hope) want the truth!

[Kevin Stockwell]

Phenolic is the most "UV" stable resin so a varnish made with Tung oil and phenolic resin will be FAR superior to any varnish not made with these products for an exterior spar varnish or marine varnish. An interior varnish made with Tung oil will be superior to any run of the mill poly in a bathroom or kitchen.



Do you have any brand examples for these?

[Prashun Patel]

Waterlox is a phenolic resin varnish

[Keith Harrell]

I also like the Sam Maloof mix. I have used it a number of times and have only found a couple problems.

1. It is not the most durable finish for a harsh environment. Table tops that are subject to water or liquid spills
2. It must be ALL wiped off or the it remaining finish will be like sticky honey
Use a good light when wiping it off.
3. Very slow to build if at all.
4. Because of the poly it can turn a little yellow if prolonged exposure to the sun light. A number of other finishes can also

My wife prefers the look as it is a more natural wood look without the plastic look some finishes can leave.
I have used it on about a dozen projects and like it even with the disadvantages.

[Prashun Patel]

Keith-
You should try substituting the poly in Maloof's mix for an alkyd or phenolic resin varnish, if you don't like the look of the poly over time.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I have always used BLO, spar varnish, and turp. Always been satisfied, but I have been told by another Creeker - who knows a lot more than me - that I would like the results better if I used the Waterlox instead of the spar - thatsa what Ima gonna do .

[Jerome Hanby]

Pat,

Tung oil is between in color and darkens slightly with time. Now here is where Tung oil gets it's real claim to fame....

drum roll please....

Varnish made with Tung oil produces a varnish that is better at waterproofing and better at stopping water-vapor.


I think you missed one of the best features of Tung oil. It smells wonderful! As much as I hate finishing, the smell of Tung oil alone, almost makes it fun

I like give shellac a thumbs up for the same reason.

Not a reason to pick anything that isn't going to perform well, but both of those do.

[Scott Holmes]

Jerome,

Unfortunately tung oil alone is a terrible finish, even if the smell is pleasing.

It does smell better than boiled linseed oil; however it doesn't perform any better...

[Scott Holmes]

Kevin,

Here's a list of options:

Alkyd (alcohol & acid) resin varnish made with Soya oil. Hard varnish finish

- Pratt & Lambert #38 (my favorite)
-McCloskey Heirloom varnish by Valspar Now owned and distributed by Cabot new product code is: 144.0018000.005 (qt. Gloss)
-Sherwin-Williams makes an Alkyd varnish made from soya oil (Classic Oil Fast Dry Varnish). Better UV protection than Poly
-Formby’s Tung Oil Finish – Alkyd resin /soya oil wiping varnish. I don't use their products. (Deception in Marketing there is no tung oil never has been)


Phenolic resin (Old yellowing radio cases). Hard varnish finish.

- Behlen Rock Hard Linseed oil
- Waterlox Original Sealer & Finish Tung oil (wiping varnish)
- Waterlox Original High Gloss Finish Tung oil (also in satin)

-Waterlox Marine Gloss Finish Tung oil Far superior to any polyurethane spar or marine varnish.

[Jerome Hanby]

Scott,

Maybe I missed something in the overall tone of this thread that would answer this question, but what makes Tung oil a "terrible" finish? I can see that it wouldn't be very tough and that it isn't going to make a shinny covering, but I think the look is beautiful. I'm looking at a pen my wife made me from a walnut blank that she finished while it was still on the lathe using Tung oil and I love it. the feel of the surface in my hand is very pleasing.

I also used Tung oil to finish a hard maple handle I turned for the Thompson Bowl gouge I got her a few Christmas' ago. I really like the look and feel of it also.

I haven't used it on any flat work yet, so maybe it does better when it's rubbed in with spindle work still on the lathe.

Just curious about the term terrible in this context.

[Scott Holmes]

Well, I need to clarify what I'm saying... 100% pure Tung oil is a terrible finish by itself. It needs constant up keep and will eventually crystalize and then need to be stripped.

What "tung oil" did you use? Most "Tung oil" finishes are not even made from tung oil.

[Pat Barry]

Scott - thanks for the information. I'm not a chemist so is the Waterlox that Prashun is referring to the same thing you are talking about? I spent some time on their website and it sounds like a good solution. Interested on your thoughts or if you can recommend another brand.

[Scott Holmes]

Pat,

Waterlox is a brand name; yes, it is a top quality, phenolic resin/tung oil, varnish.

[Jerome Hanby]

Well, I need to clarify what I'm saying... 100% pure Tung oil is a terrible finish by itself. It needs constant up keep and will eventually crystalize and then need to be stripped.

What "tung oil" did you use? Most "Tung oil" finishes are not even made from tung oil.


I used 100 % tung oil from Woodcraft mixed about 50/50 with pure gum turpentine.

I had never heard of the crystallize bit before...

[Pat Barry]

After reading this blog and comments and then the Waterlox website I am ready to try it. Do you guys brush it on like they recommend?

[Prashun Patel]

I've brushed Waterlox a couple times. It brushes better than the several other brushing varnishes I've tried.

However, I like to use it as a wiping varnish. It does not require thinning. You can apply it like any other wiping varnish, but I really like the way the manufacturer recommends applying it, by 'rubbing in' small amounts. What yr actually doing here is letting it be on the surface for a long enough time that it soaks in and starts setting up, and then rubbing OFF the excess.

[Scott Holmes]

Prashun,

That is not really the proper application method for Waterlox Original; it's fine for the thinned product called Waterlox sealer Finish. (Which is really just the origninal thinned to wiping consistancy). I hope they aren't recommending to rub in the original...

[Prashun Patel]

Sorry! I didn't realize there was a difference. I meant Waterlox Original Sealer Finish. Full disclosure: I haven't used the Satin or Highgloss vsns of Waterlox Original; I believe they are full strength.

The sealer can be brushed too.

[Jack Clark]

That is not really the proper application method for Waterlox Original; it's fine for the thinned product called Waterlox sealer Finish. (Which is really just the origninal thinned to wiping consistancy).

I'm trying to make sense of the Waterlox product line. On their website they list Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish, product #TB 5284. Is that what you are referring to above as okay for a wiping varnish?

Then there is Waterlox Original Satin Finish and Waterlox Original High Gloss Finish. Not so good for wiping?

Could you clarify? This varnish stuff gets real confusing real fast.

Thanks

[Scott Holmes]

Except for new gel gel type varnish, which I don't use; one, because it's poly, secondly, I want a smooth thin coat, gel doesn't compute)

Any regular varnish can be made into a wiping varnish by mixing it ~50/50 with mineral spirits or the thinner that the manufacturer recommends (there are a few that do better with the specified thinner than with MS).

Properly applied, 3 wipe-on coats should give you the same dry film thickness of 1 properly brushed coat.

[Robert Wolf]

I put mineral oil. Mineral spirits. Johnsons paste wax and clear gloss poly equal parts. Brush on. 320/400 sand in wipe after 10 minutes. Leaves a nice soft finish. I've used brush cleaner once because it's all I had on hand. Seemed to work well other than forcing me to don a respirator outdoors. LOL.

[Randy Goodhew]

Kevin,

-Formby’s Tung Oil Finish – Alkyd resin /soya oil wiping varnish. I don't use their products. (Deception in Marketing there is no tung oil never has been)


Nonsense!

Please cite a reference.

Blessings.

[David Bassett]

Nonsense!

Please cite a reference.

Blessings.

Harsh! Especially when replying to the acknowledged local expert, maybe you should offer counter evidence.

Formby doesn't list ingredients. Every report or review I find that does agrees there is no tung oil in it, that it is an oil based varnish. E.g. Bob Flexner discusses the labeling of consumer finishes in: Oil Finishes: Their History and Use (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/finishing/oil-finishes-their-history-and-use) (though he doesn't address "Formby's Tung Oil Finish" ingredients specifically.)

For further research lmgtfy (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=formby%27s+tung+oil+finish+ingredients).

[Randy Goodhew]

Harsh! Especially when replying to the acknowledged local expert, maybe you should offer counter evidence.


I define harsh as denigrating the vendor and claiming deception in marketing when there is proof to the contrary.



Formby doesn't list ingredients.


Actually they do. Also, you can email them for an answer.



Every report or review I find that does agrees there is no tung oil in it, that it is an oil based varnish.


Note: Google searches don't return facts only frequency.

Blessings.

[Steve Schoene]

This is very unique--not a formula that has been promulated in books or magazines. The mineral spirits you add and the solvent (likely mineral spirits) in the poly are just as respirator worthy as the solvents in the other finishes that have been mentioned. I just don't understand wanting to mix mineral oil with varnish. Mineral oil is basically an oil that does not cure and ought to act like a thinner that just barely evaporates. I'd be really skeptical about how durable this would be as a finish. How would it resist water rings from ice tea glasses set on the surface for a couple of hours.

[Stuart Welsh]

I have a large island counter top made of Mesquite with a 3 part, Sam Maloof type finish, just installed yesterday. My wife is already reaching for the lemon oil and I'm holding her off. I'm curious as to what the best regular maintenance for such a surface is? I realize that depending on use I will need to reapply the Maloof type finish every 6-12 months but what about in between? Will a typical lemon or orange oil furniture product impact the reapplication of the Maloof?

[Steve Schoene]

Lemon or Orange furniture oil is mostly mineral oil with scent and/or color added. As such it won't do much to protect the wood, and it will be reasonably removable with mineral spirits should refreshing the finish is needed. Personally, I would totally avoid such products, and add another finish coat at a little more frequent intervals, being sure to thoroughly remove any excess finish. The problem doing that is that oil/varnish does take some time to cure.

[fRED mCnEILL]

Paul Lemiski(canadianwoodworks.com) builds a lot of Maloof rockers and has switched from the Maloof formula to Rubio Monocoat. Apparently it is more durable and single coat is all that is needed.Pretty expensive though.

[Louise Mullins]

Please help. I mixed 1/3 of each: Linseed oil, paint thinner and varnish. One of the products coagulated to form this giant glob. I don't know which it was, my husband poured them for me while I was out of the room. I mixed and mixed, however it is still a bit cloudy and there are still small particals floating in the mixture. Any advice, reccomendations, ideas, anything appreciated. thank you in advance, Louise

[glenn bradley]

I use mineral spirits, BLO and a modified phenolic varnish (Cabot's). I use a 1:1:1 for the first through 3rd coats; wipe on, leave for 20 - 30 minutes in our dry desert basin weather, then wipe it off like you changed your mind. I then use a 1:1:3 mix two or three times to build film. These later coats get wiped on a little thicker because the mix is a little thicker. They get wiped off less aggressively to leave more behind.

Depending on the finish I am after and the use of the item I will follow up a week or so after with a wet sand. I use 1000 - 1500 grit abrasives and a spritz of mineral spirits for a lubricant. I wipe down after sanding an area with a paper towel sprayed with mineral spirits. Through force of habit and a love for the look, I then paste wax and buff out.

On walnut:
368741

On cherry:
368742

On sepele:
368743