My New Panel Saw

[Tom Winship]

I bought an old Disston several weeks ago for $2. It was pointy nosed at the end.
So I placed the blade between two boards in the vise and sawed four inches off the nose end.
I then sawed the "spur" off the handle end.
More pictures forthcoming.

[Tom Winship]

So after cutting off both ends with the hacksaw, I touched everything with a file, made a new mesquite handle and I have a $2 panel saw.
The handle needs to sunbathe for a couple of days to turn darker before I apply some tung oil. In the meantime I will polish the brass.

[Bill Houghton]

A nice rebirth for an honorable old saw that obviously lived a full, busy life - based on how many times it had been sharpened.

[Marv Werner]

Nice all around good job, Tom....:)

Marv

[george wilson]

Those "pointy" saws can be useful if you need to saw a wide radius curve by hand. I had 1 for years. Not saying they were made that way,but can be useful.

[Andrew Gibson]

Did you save the cut offs for turning into scrapers and the like?

[Roy Griggs]

Nice job....

I've bought a lot of parts saws over the years, some with bad handles but decent blades some simply to get the saw nuts and medallions. They make nice material to practice making handles, and can be shaped to make almost any kind of saw that you want. As a matter of fact I cut a blade tonight that is to be a panel saw, also! Just to peak your imagination here is another "re-cycled " saw blade...

[Marv Werner]

Roy,

Nice job of reshaping that blade. Looking forward to seeing your new handle.

Did you cut the blade using those tin snips or is that a carborundum cut off blade I see in your table saw?

Do you use carbide drills for drilling the blade or do you punch the holes?

Marv

[Tom Winship]

Did you save the cut offs for turning into scrapers and the like?

The pieces I sawed off were too small to do anything with. I have another "cheapie" that is bent that is doomed to the scraper bucket.

[Roy Griggs]

Marv,
Tin snips on the panel saw; dremmel with cut-off wheel on the other one.

Whitney and Jensen No.5 Jr. punch for the holes.

This is one of four saws I have made to determine what I want in a half-back saw...you might notice a resemblence to one of Mike's W's. saws. That's because I was looking at a picture of his when I drew the plan.

[Jim Koepke]

Nice saws both of you.

The small pieces of saw blade can be used for making marking knives and as blades in scribes.

Also for inlay a two or three tooth saw blade can be used for making the channel to lay string inlay.

jtk

[Marv Werner]

Roy,

I like the shaping you did at the front of the handle just below the mortise.

Is the No.5 punch that little one hand operated model? I have two of those, and the handles just bend when I try to punch a hole in a saw blade.

Is the brass back mainly for aesthetics? A blade that size would usually be thick enough to work well without a back?

I refurbed an old Disston similar to your's a couple years ago and the back didn't extend into the handle. I thought that was a bit strange.

Marv

[Roy Griggs]

Marv,
Yes, the back is for looks.

My #5 Jr. is a hand punch; I'm about at the limit of what it'll do with saw plates of about .033".

A piece of saw blade has to be pretty small before I throw it away. I can usually get at least scratch stock blanks out of even little pieces.

roy

[David Keller NC]

Tom - One comment; not necessarily a critique becasue you might've intended this:

The photo of the finished saw makes it look like that perpendicular drawn from the line of the handle will be nearly parallel with the tooth line of the saw. Adam Cherubini has written a fair amount about this - it seems that much older, 18th century saws were this way, but more modern, end of the 18th through the 19th century and beyond saws have a perpendicular drawn through the line of the handle that intersects the tooth line approximately halfway along the length of the saw.

Adam speculates that a saw made in the older style will show a high dependence on the sharpness of the saw - if it dulls slightly, the absence of "hang" won't allow it to cut well. He speculates that the reason for the change in the late 18th/19th century is that it allows the saw to cut more effectively/aggressively for a longer period of time before re-sharpening is required.

Food for thought.

[Marv Werner]

Logic seems to dictate that the hang of the handle will have nothing to do with how long a sharpened tooth line will remain sharp. How long a saw remains sharp is based on how the teeth are filed and the type wood being sawed as well as the hardness of the blade.

The hang has more to do with the energy required to push the saw for an extended period of time that also relates to individual comfort while sawing.

Marv

[David Keller NC]

Marv - The aspect that Adam's discussed in his blog isn't a speculated dependence on how long the saw will stay sharp in relation to the hang of the tote, it's how well the saw will cut in relation to how sharp it is and the hang of the tote. Specifically, what he's postulating (and backs up with antecdotal testing) is that a saw with little hang (the perpendicular is close to parallel with the blade) is that once it dulls slightly, it loses its effectiveness at cutting much more quickly than a saw with a greater hang at an equivalent sharpness.

From a purely physics perspective, his speculation makes sense, as there's considerably more downward force along the tooth line for a saw with more hang.

[Tom Winship]

I didn't know about the discussion of the "handle Hang". Being a retired engineer, I understand the vector part of it tho. It seems to me that it wouldn't have anything to do with sharpness except at the extremes; i.e., if the force were perpendicular to the teeth, then no amount of sharpness would cut. Correspondingly, if the force were in the parallel or up on the teeth, the saw would be extremely easy to push, just no "bite".
So I would think that the force should point somewhere on the toothline, and that the sharpness would affect the speed of the cut, not the dulling of the blade?

[Tom Winship]

I must also confess, I copied the handle, without regard to the physics.
Thanks for the heads up. Will pay particular attention in the future.
As a matter of fact, I might do some testing.
Where is Adam's blog located?

[Marv Werner]

David,

When I think of "hang", I'm thinking of where the hand grip is located up or down off the center line of the blade. The angle of the grip in relation to the tooth edge comes into play as well. When Adam refers to more downward pressure when there is more hang is very true, meaning that the grip is higher up off center. If for example, you could locate the grip say, 6" above the top edge of the blade, when you push the saw, the toe would do a nose dive. Adversely, if the grip was located 6" below the tooth line, it would make it difficult to push the saw evenly forward without the toe wanting to pitch upward. From Adam's point of view, he does make good sense, but only when considering the extremes.

So the sweet spot has to be somewhere in between. Disston located the grip and angled the grip so when your forefinger is on the side of the handle, it should point down the center of the blade or close to it. If Tom goes by these general guide lines, he'll be ok, even if he doesn't get it exact.

I don't remember who did the extensive analysis, but below are some interesting pictures showing angles of open handles versus closed handles on various makes of backsaws. It relates to some degree to regular handsaws as well.

I saw this posted on WoodCentral a couple years ago and copied them to my computer. Hopefully the originator will see this and comment on it.

Marv

[David Keller NC]

Tom - You may have to do some google searching to come up with the post where Adam is discussing the design for the saws that he made, but the "Arts and Mysteries" blog is here:

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/blog3/

Marv - Very interesting pictures. One thing I've noticed with the antiques that I have is that dovetail saws, in particular, seem to have a great deal more hang than panel saws. The one truly 18th century panel saw that I had in my possession (once - someone offerred me too much for it to keep it) had very little hang. I can't remember exactly, but the perpendicular from the grip axis was dang near the toe of the saw.

[David Keller NC]

Found it (he reproduced the discussion on his personal page):

http://www.adamcherubini.com/Long_Saws.html

Here's the quote:

"Generally speaking, I find the 18th c saw styles to be superior to the later 19th c models. The reason is a little complicated. Saws cut by applying force behind the teeth. They don't really need or benefit from a force pushing the teeth down into the wood. Earlier saws typically have their handles designed to focus the sawyer's energy behind the teeth. Later styles had handles that were higher on the heel and focused a portion of the sawyer's energy into downforce, pushing the teeth down into the stock. I have a theory about why this is:

When saw teeth become dull, they ride up over the wood instead of cutting it. When that happens, downforce is required to re-engage the teeth. By making saw handles that used some energy for downforce, makers like Disston were able to produce saws that would go on cutting even when dull. This would be a very good feature for carpenters or craftsmen who lacked the ability to sharpen their own saws. Though the saw would cut slower when the saw was dull, more force could be applied and the cut could continue. I suspect all of us have at least one such saw in our garage or workshop.

18th c saw makers seemed to use the weight of the saw to produce downforce allowing all of the sawyer's energy to go into cutting. Over the last 4 years, I've compared these different styles side by side and found the 18th c style saws to be faster cutting. The downside is that when these saws become dull, they become almost unusable. I think the 18th c saws were designed for professional users who knew how to sharpen them and wanted maximum performance."

[seth lowden]

I saw this posted on WoodCentral a couple years ago and copied them to my computer. Hopefully the originator will see this and comment on it.

Marv

Those pictures came from Bob Brode at least a decade ago. He used to sell old tools and was known for saws, but dropped out of the scene several years ago. I have no idea if he still is involved in woodworking.