Bowl gouge recomendations - Packard?

[Prashun Patel]

I want to purchase a 3/8" bowl gouge. I have a Benjamin's Best 1/2" which has been fine, and for $15, the 3/8" version looks tempting.

However, (at 5x the price!) I've been looking also at the a Packard gouge made of '2060 ASP steel'.

Has anyone tried the Packard?

My BB has been performing just fine; how much better will the experience be for a high priced tool?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Prashun,

I have 2 bowl gouges. I use a 3/8" Robert Larson and 1/2" Ellsworth Pro-PM.

[Sean Hughto]

My favorites include the ones Trent Bosch offers, Thompson, and PN. None are cheap, but they are excellent. Also, while I love to turn my own handles, the like Bosch's a lot!

As for whether the higher priced ones are better than the cheapies, I can't say as my expereince with most tools over the years led me to buy good ones the first time.

[Prashun Patel]

So what makes a good bowl gouge? The heft on mine is fine and the blade holds a reasonable edge.

[Sean Hughto]

What does "holds a reasonable edge" mean? I'd have to turn a lot of bowls in many sizes out of many species before I could reach such a conclusion. What is acceptably sharp to you? What is an acceptable duration of turning before you have to resharpen the gouge for you? What shape flute do you like in your bowl gouges for sharpening and clearance purposes? All of these things inform what is good to me, and the answers may be different for you.

[Norm Zax]

You will immedately know when using a better tool. Ignorance is bliss, believe me. Samething goes with lathes, cars , ...... I'd better stop here.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm new to turning.

I've turned only about 7-8 bowls. I've turned some green, some dry, some cherry, maple, and walnut, and spalted maple, and a whole bunch of pine.

I sharpen my gouge before the roughout, before the finishing cuts on one side, then before the finishing cuts on the second side. That's how I 'read' how to do it in an article. I'm also new to sharpening, so I've sharpened on si-carbide wheel at 3750 rpm! and at slower speeds on a 60gt AO wheel. I've probably tempted the limits of the temper, but have never had the edge become unusable. I've sharpened it using the Oneway Vari-grind and my own homemade jig which was less than stellar.

I currently use about a 50 degree bevel with wings swept at about 45 deg.

I guess all this is to say I'm not scientific about sharpening and using it, and it's performed well in a (limited) variety of woods for me.

Might a better gouge reveal its assets in harder woods?

[Prashun Patel]

You will immedately know when using a better tool. Ignorance is bliss, believe me. Samething goes with lathes, cars , ...... I'd better stop here.

I get that. Believe me, I've been through this with power tools, hand planes, and measuring devices. I appreciate when quality matters. If you asked me why it matters in these areas, I can tell you. I'm just trying to understand why it matters in a bowl gouge - or more specifically, why the Benjamin's Bests should be (if indeed they should) be considered lesser quality.

[Sean Hughto]

Spending extra money is not always necessary, sometimes, it's just fun. ;-)

Anyway, you know planes, so let me make a plane analogy. I could tune up a SW era Stanley 5, with it's original blade, to take great shavings in pine and normal hardwoods with straight well-behaved grain. If I then went to cury maple or cocobolo, for example, I might really appreciate dropping an A2 LN replacement blade in there because it is thicker (less chance of chatter) and holds an edge better. If I put an LN body around it, it's materials and tolerances are going to mean an even more secure blade and potentially tighter mouth, such that I can do even better in challenging circumstances (less tearout).

Good bowl gouges are similar I think. Their steel is durable and takes a keen edge. Their fit and finish as far as the grinding of the flute, temper etc. is also a possible plus. Could I turn a 14" pecan bowl with a BB? Probably. Just like I could use my Stanley 5 on some fiddleback maple and make it work with a little extra sanding and scraping. Would I rather turn with a slightly better gouge? yep.

[Scott Hackler]

Here is a little history on my experience:

When I first started turning, I bought a 5 peice Sorby turning set. In ti there was a "bowl gouge". Most of the tools in this set were around the size I remember my Dad's lathe tools that I played with as a child. No problem, happy as can be. While roughing out a 4" deep bowl with my "bowl gouge" I had a lot of tool hanging off the rest and a bad catch snapped off the tool at the top of the handle. Then the steel whipped around and decided to take a fairly decent chunk of my hand. Ouch!

Someone suggested that I didnt won a "real" bowl gouge and so I promptly ordered a Sorby 3/8" and 1/2" bowl gouge. Both of these tools were as much (by themselves) as the entire set I initially purchased. When they arrived in teh mail and I took them out of the box I said to myself, "OH.. that is what a real bowl gouge looks like". Now not knowing any other tool makers, I had purchased a lot of Sorby tools but the main point of this story is to buy a good quality, heavy duty gouge (or 2).

I would suggest, if you feel comfortable in making your own handles, to order a gouge from Doug Thompson or (like I just did) but the tool part of a Sorby soveriegn and put it in my own handle.

The mass of the tool is your friend.

On sharpening.... I hit mine with the slow speed grinder and then hone with a 600 grit diamond hand stone. Then I just re-hone every so often to establish a razor sharp edge. This, to me, makes all the difference in the world.

[Don Geiger]

I have lots of bowl gouges (about 17). Most are M2 HSS and I have one Pro-PM. I had a $35,000 metals analyzer at my disposal for about 4 years and there are differences in the chemistry of the cheaper gouges vs. the more expspensive ones. Just because something says it is HSS does not mean it is of equal quality.

I believe that purchasing a good quality product is an investment- not an expense. I mostly use Crown deep-fluted bowl gouges which I maintain a side grind (Ellsworth, Irish etc.) on. I have found that Hartville tools usually has the published best prices and sometimes has sales.

I have one Thompson and it is good too.

A word on how long a tool lasts: When I am teaching someone to use the bowl gouge, I will first show them how to sharpen. Then once they start turning, I tell them that I want them to concentrate on turning and I'll do the sharpening. I hand them a freshly sharpened gouge at fairly frequent intervals then, once they are used to the routine, I hand them a gouge that was not re-sharpened. I don't think I've ever done this without the student responding immediately saying: "I think this tool is dull.". This teaches them to recognize the difference between and dull and a sharp tool and importance of using a sharp tool.

Don't make yourself get used to using dull tools. You will enjoy the turning process much more and will get better results with sharp tools!!! It takes me about 10 to 15 seconds to refresh the edge on a bowl gouge. This is time well spent.


Sincerely,
Don Geiger

[Ron Bontz]

Well I don't know, being a novice myself. But Sean convinced me. :)

[Nathan Hawkes]

Prashun, the powder metal tools are really worth the money if you are turning a lot. They really do keep an edge longer, and are a joy to use. I've used packard & hamlet 2060, which I think are identical--not positive, but it looks as though hamlet makes them for Packard. I also really like the Thompson tools, and crown pro-pm. The Thompson and packard are my favorites. I think Doug's tools are by far the best value out there. Any slight differences between the sharpness holding between the different gouges is pretty negligible in practical use. They all hold an edge better than HSS. The thompsons have some distinct advantages over other powder metals, IMHO. They are easier to grind, and less brittle than the 2060 steel. Its also easier to get a really keen edge on them. Whatever your choice, you'll be happy turning.

[George Guadiane]

I get that. Believe me, I've been through this with power tools, hand planes, and measuring devices. I appreciate when quality matters. If you asked me why it matters in these areas, I can tell you. I'm just trying to understand why it matters in a bowl gouge - or more specifically, why the Benjamin's Bests should be (if indeed they should) be considered lesser quality.

There's steel and then there is STEEL.
Think of the ingredients of a cake, there are a lot of ways you could combine them, most of those will get something that turns out like a cake... One will have the best combination of moisture, texture and flavor... (hungry yet?) ALL using the exact same ingredients.

In the same way, M2/Powdered Metal/Cryogenic steels may be made of the same "stuff," and with many of the same steps, but in a different order. The best combination might not have the most known name on it.
I was always told to use the biggest tool you can for any given job when turning, I've found that to be true. The mass seems to help lower vibrations. Hardness - what holds the edge - is more difficult to tell, but still a factor, but one can, after a time learn the nuance. The metal content may be there, but M2 for instance has a WIDE variance in actual hardness/sharpness, depending on the hardening process.

As you will hear over time on this site, Doug Thompson makes an excellent tool. I own 10 or 12 of them (so far)... One of the things that I factor into deciding whom to buy from is the size of the company AND "Made In America." Doug's company has one constant representative - DOUG. If he makes a "bad batch," we don't see it... He's always out there, facing the customer at symposia across the country. You can't do that if your're too big or if you make an inferior product... Doug's business is growing.

I guess, at this point, I have to say that I have no financial interest in Thompson Tools and do not represent him or his products in any way, other than as an end user.

[Wally Dickerman]

I have had most all of the popular brands of bowl gouges. Sorby, Glaser, Henry Taylor, Hamlet, Thompson and more. Right now, I have 2 gouges that are my "go to" gouges. My Thompson and my 2060 Hamlet. Both will stay sharp much longer than the regular M2 steel ones.

You should know that there are 2 ways to measure a gouge. The American way (Doug Thompson) and the UK way. A Thompson 5/8 inch gouge and a Sorby 1/2 inch gouge are the same size.

When selecting a gouge you have choices of flute shape. Sorby gouges are U shape and Henry Taylor are V shape, etc. Thompson gives you choices. My personal favorite, having owned all shapes, is the V flute. Others will prefer the U shape.

I still have what's left of my original bowl gouge (long ago put to rest). It's a Sorby 1/2 inch, purchased in 1982 or 83. It's interesting to note that the handle is only 12 inches long. The bowl gouge wasn't marketed in the US until around 1980. All of a sudden bowl turning became much easier.

Wally

[Barry Elder]

In response to your question about Packard 2060 gouges, they are good gouges. There are many companies making good gouges. I prefer the Thompson gouges because they come ready to use, except that you will have to make or purchase a handle. If you have the money to spend for a "name brand" tool, try one or two. But you must be confident in your ability to sharpen whatever tools you use. A dull tool will wear you out and you will spend hours sanding the surface left by a dull tool.

[Reed Gray]

I think the biggest difference in the cheap tools, and the expensive tools is consistency. With the more expensive tools, you will get the same thing every time, while with the cheaper tools, quality can vary a lot. That being said, I prefer the Thompson tools. In part because you are buying from the guy who makes them, not from a vendor who buys from some one else. This keeps the price down. The steel is excellent quality, none better. The edge holding quality is the best I have found, though I still use a freshly ground tool for the finish cuts. You do have to make or buy your handles. I prefer straight wood cylinders, no bumps or humps. Tool review would come out winner in best tool, and best value.

robo hippy

[George Guadiane]

A word on how long a tool lasts: When I am teaching someone to use the bowl gouge, I will first show them how to sharpen. Then once they start turning, I tell them that I want them to concentrate on turning and I'll do the sharpening. I hand them a freshly sharpened gouge at fairly frequent intervals then, once they are used to the routine, I hand them a gouge that was not re-sharpened. I don't think I've ever done this without the student responding immediately saying: "I think this tool is dull.". This teaches them to recognize the difference between and dull and a sharp tool and importance of using a sharp tool.

Don't make yourself get used to using dull tools. You will enjoy the turning process much more and will get better results with sharp tools!!! It takes me about 10 to 15 seconds to refresh the edge on a bowl gouge. This is time well spent.


Sincerely,
Don Geiger
BRILLIANT way to demonstrate the importance of sharp tools to anyone, especially new turners... May I steal it?

[Kim Ford]

Many very good comments. IMHO Thompson's tools are first rate and very reasonable in price for the quality. I have others that are more expensive but none that perform any better.

[Don Geiger]

Yes- of course you can.


Don Geiger



BRILLIANT way to demonstrate the importance of sharp tools to anyone, especially new turners... May I steal it?

[Ralph Lindberg]

I own of full set of BB bowl gouges and think they were worth every penny I paid. They are a great gouge to learn to sharpen with, cause the steel is cheaper then the "big" name brands.

After you know what you are doing, buy some of the high-end, you will find you sharpen less

Now, here is a sleeper... A couple years back Alan Lacer bought some BB gouges from Penn State and more BB gouges from a firm on eBay

The ones from Penn State were HSS, the ones from the un-named eBay vendor were not.

They were all marked Benjamin's Best, and HSS, but they were not.

Another thing I learned from a talk with Alan last summer, there is a "un-named" firm (mid/low tier) that was selling chisels marked as HSS, they were not. When contacted the Firm admited that they had tested the prototype chisels from their new (Chinese) source, but had not tested the production run. Turns on their source was shipping them chisels, that while marked as HSS, didn't make the grade.

[Thom Sturgill]

Depending on whether or not you count the cost of making (or buying) a handle the Thompson might be less expensive. Both are excellent tools, and I own some from both sources. I am pretty sure that Packard's are made by Hamlet (an English manufacturer, although the tools may come from China). my 'go to' bowl gouges are my Thompson 'Jimmy Clewes' V gouges and an Ellsworth.

[Tim Rinehart]

I own of full set of BB bowl gouges and think they were worth every penny I paid. They are a great gouge to learn to sharpen with, cause the steel is cheaper then the "big" name brands.

After you know what you are doing, buy some of the high-end, you will find you sharpen less

Now, here is a sleeper... A couple years back Alan Lacer bought some BB gouges from Penn State and more BB gouges from a firm on eBay

The ones from Penn State were HSS, the ones from the un-named eBay vendor were not.

They were all marked Benjamin's Best, and HSS, but they were not.

Another thing I learned from a talk with Alan last summer, there is a "un-named" firm (mid/low tier) that was selling chisels marked as HSS, they were not. When contacted the Firm admited that they had tested the prototype chisels from their new (Chinese) source, but had not tested the production run. Turns on their source was shipping them chisels, that while marked as HSS, didn't make the grade.

I also have found inconsistencies with BB gouges I've bought. My first 3/8 BB gouge was part of a set and I loved it, and still do...though it has limited life remaining I've used it so much over the past 2 years. I went to replace it with what should have been same exact tool...and it wasn't. Depth of grind different, edge holding different...not terrible...just noticeably different.

I have a 5/8"-V Thompson gouge now that I just recently got, and it is my new 'go-to' of several 5/8" gouges I have. As has been said, alot is to be said for the consistency offered by someone like Doug. My next gouges will surely be Thompson's.

I suspect Doug may be getting a big head with all the accolades, but when someone delivers customers value and consistency as he has shown, the praise is well deserved. Sure wish he'd go public with an IPO...on second thought, I think it's best it stay completely in Doug's control!:cool:

[Prashun Patel]

Boy, what a resource this forum is!

So, Thompson it is.

Next question: U or V flute?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Prashun,

IIRC....if you go to Doug's website, he explains the advantages of the two types of flutes.

The key thing to pickup here though.....better steel may stay sharper longer....but using a sharp tool with a consistant grind is one major key to improving your turning skills.

[David E Keller]

Boy, what a resource this forum is!

So, Thompson it is.

Next question: U or V flute?

I like the V, but to each his/her own. I use a U sometimes as well, but I prefer the V.

[George Guadiane]

I like the V, but to each his/her own. I use a U sometimes as well, but I prefer the V.
And I like the "U", but have (and use) both in the largest size. I also like the old grind, but Doug doesn't offer that grind (yet) and I don't want to waste the steel resharpening one once it's ground.

[Kim Ford]

I don't think you can go wrong with either the U or V. I have both and use both and over the years have come to grind each differently because I have developed my preferences.

The big thing here is to get a useable grind on the tool, keep it sharp and then put on the mileage.

Just an interesting calculation: An 8" cylinder spinning 800 rpm travels 3.17 miles in ten minutes.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Boy, what a resource this forum is!

So, Thompson it is.

Next question: U or V flute?

Smart move; Doug's tools are not only some of the best overall, but by far best bang for the buck at half the price of your big name gouges in many instances.

I have a 1/2" Thomspon U, but my next will be his V. I have a couple Sorby 5/8" v flutes and I like the V flute better in most instances. It isn't exactly the same as Doug's but close. I like the geometry of the wing that you get with the V flute and it just seems more controllable and versatile. But since you are saving money, buy one of each!

As for the size, if you are turning any bowls above 10" on a regular basis I would consider a 5/8 gouge. I really like the heft and you can hog off a lot of wood. I have a 3/8 BB bowl gouge and I just don't use it unless I'm turing something small or in a tight area. In that case I would actually consider the chape BB for limited use and spend the money on a Thompson 1/2 or 5/8 V.

[Neil Strong]

Most people prefer the 'V' flute profile now.

The 'V' lends itself to a more swept back edge profile.

The 'V' gouge is also a more versatile gouge IMO, so if you only have one gouge in a particular size then the 'V' is the way to go.

Some turners like the 'U' for rapid hogging out, especially on green wood. They say that they are less prone to clogging.

Some long time turners that used the older 'U' profile, when that was all that was available, still prefer them.

I keep one of my original P&N 'U' profile gouges, with a traditional grind, for occasionally doing the final cut across the inside bottom of a bowl. They excel at that. Otherwise I'm 'V's (of various catenary profiles) all the way.

.

[Jim Burr]

I've got both Thompson V and U's. I think the U's are a little more forgiving. I get a skiddish using the V. Combine either with a Monster handle...very hard to beat.
The biggest problem with Doug's stuff, is that he runs out of stock...frequently. Once you decide on one, or 3 of them, email him and see if he has one in the back, I been lucky twice and what showed as out of stock, he had in the back was got it out to me in a hurry.

[Joe Scarfo]

I'm new to this and thanks to Mr Kim Ford, I'm learning techniques and tips from the best....

I'm going against the grain here a lil bit.. I recently picked up a few new carbide tipped tools... I like them... not enough experience to say awsome... but for the beginner, I like them.

Sharp tools are critical to quality. Technique is critical to quaity...

I'm trying to find the balance between the traditional HSS tools and the carbide tipped ones..

The carbide tools seem to be forgiving on the turning techniques and no need to learn to sharpen them...

What I need to work through is the final quality of the turned results. Can the carbide tipped tools give you as good results as the traditional tools?

Thanks for listening and don't be to brutal...

:-)
Joe

[Doug Thompson]

The basic problem with woodturners when they first start out is they look for a magic tool and keep buying until they find out there is no magic tool. IMO the first thing a new turner should do is join a club OR buy a video... Bill Grumbine basic bowls is a good start. If you can find a class better yet.

BUY
-Video
-Oneway wolverine and Vari-grind
-1/2V bowl gouge

Find some firewood and don't use any other tool until you can turn a bowl start to finish with that single tool. This will save tons of money plus your skills will be far better once you figure out how a tool cuts. You only need to learn a roughing and shearing cut, it's that simple. Gimicks only cost money and get put in a corner in a short time.

Call me if you have any questions. 440-241-6360 in the afternoon

Oh yea... I just retired so there is time to make tools and turn wood.

Doug... down in VA for this weekends symposium.

[Bill Blasic]

To me there is more to a tool than the steel it is made of and it is that fact as to why I use Thompson tools. Doug is a great guy who puts his heart and soul into these tools. It is not just a business with Doug it is an experience. I have no hesitation getting a Thompson tool because he has done the work from beginning to end and if the tool is not up to his standards (very high by the way) it does not go out the door. I have looked at some of his rejects and could not understand why they were rejected but just a glance from Doug and he'll tell you why. On the website look under guarantee, can't say more than that.
By the way my go to tool is the 5/8 V.
Bill

[Prashun Patel]

BUY
-Video
-Oneway wolverine and Vari-grind
-1/2V bowl gouge


Thanks, Doug. And thanks for your email. I actually have all three of these, including 2 Grumbine videos. I'm not looking for a magic tool, just ready to buy a good one and came to the 'xperts to get some 'pinions, s'all.

To everyone else, here's his response to an email:

"The common gouge shape is a V shape or they are very close to that shape, most pro's use it. When you sharpen a tool you will follow the flute shape and the shape that's easiest to use one that has a small nose radius and long straight wings therefore a V shape flute. The U shape flute will give a large rounded nose which doesn't rough well but works very well inside a bowl. So a V shape flute give you grind that does most everything well and the U shape flute for a finish cut inside a bowl. The Clewes gouge has a deeper flute which some of the older turners like to use. I like the strength from the extra metal."

[Bernie Weishapl]

Another vote for Doug's tools. I would get a 3/8"V and 1/2"V which are my go to tools. No magic. Just some great tools and someone that will stand behind their product.

[Jim Burr]

Head's up Doug...Keep the 5/8" Bowl gouge in stock.need it next!!:D

[Wally Dickerman]

Everybody has a preference on gouge size and flute and they're far from being the same.

Just a comment on my experience when teaching classes. When a newbie shows up in my beginning bowl class with a brand new 3/8 in. gouge (Doug's measurement) I always offer a 5/8 inch gouge to try because I believe it's a better choice for a first gouge. Almost always they end up returning the 3/8 to exchange it for the larger size.

I have a lot of gouges including a 3/8 in. and a 1/4 in. I seldom use the 3/8 but I like the 1/4 in. a lot for small detail work. (I do use one of Doug's detail gouges for some of that now).

Wally

[Steve Kubien]

A word on how long a tool lasts: When I am teaching someone to use the bowl gouge, I will first show them how to sharpen. Then once they start turning, I tell them that I want them to concentrate on turning and I'll do the sharpening. I hand them a freshly sharpened gouge at fairly frequent intervals then, once they are used to the routine, I hand them a gouge that was not re-sharpened. I don't think I've ever done this without the student responding immediately saying: "I think this tool is dull.". This teaches them to recognize the difference between and dull and a sharp tool and importance of using a sharp tool.


Don, this is absolutley brilliant! Awesome idea.

[David Woodruff]

In the turning world, you really get what you pay for , more $$, better quality. In the tool world not just better steel, better heat treatment, polishing, not a tang handle but solid round steel far into the handle. These days I would take a hard look at Thompson Lathe Tools he uses a cryogenic CPM steel, that stays sharp, cuts beautifully, and if it is a half inch inch gouge or one inch that is the leverage into the handle. I recall in my early turning days attempting shaping a 12" log round with a 3/4" gouge tang in handle, in just a few minutes the tang broke, fine tool. I also would ask myself who makes the tools that Packard, Woodcraft, and others sell. They do not make the tools, someone does, all M2 HSS are not created equal, all CPMs are not equal, all tungsten carbdides are not equal, do your research, it will return benefits. I have around 15 pretty nice tools, all HSS that I can offer you. Let know if you are interested.