Black is Black.....Not Really!!

[John Keeton]

I know for some of you "more mature" folks, the thread title conjures up memories of Los Bravos in a much earlier time in your life!:D

But, with the recent threads on dye applications, and because I am getting ready to work on another dyed piece, I wanted to do some experimentation and share the results. On past pieces, I had experienced less than a good black, and that can impact other color applications.

On curly maple, I like to use black applied first and sanded back, followed by other colors. That process, if it works right, can make some neat effects.

This is far from a "laboratory grade" experiment, so take from it what you will!

This is the line up!

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The India Ink is water based, the Transtint was mixed in DNA, the Fiebing's leather dye is alcohol based, and the Arti Toy dye is water based.

My goal here was to see what level of "black" could be achieved, and what effect it would have on red dye applied over the black.

No attempt was made to achieve a good, even dye application. The fact that two of the dyes are water based may effect the clarity of the dye, and two of the applications occur on partial end grain.

The curly maple was sanded to 400, and the dyes were applied with a dampened piece of paper shop towel. This was after application.
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To me, there appears to be a blue cast to the Transtint, a little to the Fiebings, less with the India Ink, and the blackest is the Arti. However, I would like to hear your thoughts. The pics seem to be true to color so far as I can tell. Of course, I am color blind, too!!:eek: So, this whole idea may be tainted!!:rolleyes:

I will add that the Arti absorbed deeply into the end grain making sanding difficult. For a good application, I would probably dilute it.

[John Keeton]

This is after sanding back the dye again to 400. The Arti was sanded back with 220, 320 and 400 in order to get it any where near where it needed to be for another application. Even then, it is too dark.

[John Keeton]

This is after an application of Transtint Bright Red - in my opinion, not a really good red. But, all I have other than the Arti dyes and I don't want to use those because of lightfast issues with the colors. I am not concerned with the black Arti dye.

There is a light spray coat of Deft lacquer to bring out the color.
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So, what are your thoughts???? To me, there is a wine/purple cast to the Transtint, and the Fiebings. Less for the other two.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

I can't help but wonder if the end grain isn't absorbing more of those dyes and thus causing some of the differences.

JMHO and worth everything you paid for it.

[John Keeton]

Ken, no doubt that is a factor here, but that shouldn't have an effect on the "blackness" of the dyes. To me, there is a distinctly different look with these various dyes, and a difference in what they do to the red overlay.

[Fred Perreault]

If you need any whitening agent for one turning or another to contrast with darker colors, I do have some left over White Buck Suede Dressing. :)

[Cathy Schaewe]

To me, the Arti dye also has a blue tint, like the transtint. I think the leather dye looks the most black in the first set of pics. It could all be monitor setup, though.

I just plain don't like the red over the transtint or the arti. I think the leather dye with the red looks best.

I don't think it's fair that you are color blind and produce these dyed masterpieces .... :D

[Rick Moyer]

To me, the Arti dye also has a blue tint, like the transtint. I think the leather dye looks the most black in the first set of pics. It could all be monitor setup, though.

I just plain don't like the red over the transtint or the arti. I think the leather dye with the red looks best.

I don't think it's fair that you are color blind and produce these dyed masterpieces .... :D

Yep, I agree with Cathy on all counts. the leather dye is the darkest in the original pics, and also looks best with the red. and the arti is somewhat bluish like the Transtint only not quite as much.

[Ted Evans]

I also prefer the leather dye combo. Ted

[Steve Mawson]

Leather dye or India ink, in that order for me.

[David E Keller]

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure the two endgrain applications are getting a fair shake... You would almost need a cylinder shape to apply the dyes in bands around the form to get a feel for how the dye would work on an entire piece. Also, the depth of penetration would effect the amount of sanding needed to prep the piece and that might vary from dye to dye and piece to piece. If you're just looking for the purest black, it seems like the India ink is the purest to me just from a color standpoint.

I'm glad you posted the experiment, but I'm not sure I can make any hard and fast conclusions yet.

BTW, your practice wood is A LOT nicer than mine!:D

[David DeCristoforo]

I tend to agree with David K. in that you would need to band the dyes completely around the form to get an accurate representation of how the different dyes would act on the grain around the entire circumference of the test turning. However, based on what you have shown here, I would call it a tossup between the leather dye and the ink. The other two look very muddy. If you were going for a "true black" without any sanding to "knock back" the color, the ink would seem to provide the "purest" black.

[Baxter Smith]

Interesting John but I am too influenced by the different absorptions depending on the grain to objectively choose one. I tend to agree with the turn a tapered spindle approach and apply them around the circumference. Or just put them on a flat(remember what that is?:)) piece of your maple.

[Ray Bell]

I like the leather dye in both applications, alone as black, and after sanding with the red. Neat experiment John. I'm going to have to find a shoe store/leather shop. Actually my neighbor is a saddle maker, I'll ask him about it.

[David E Keller]

Interesting John but I am too influenced by the different absorptions depending on the grain to objectively choose one. I tend to agree with the turn a tapered spindle approach and apply them around the circumference. Or just put them on a flat(remember what that is?:)) piece of your maple.

I think that gets Baxter one demerit for suggesting the use of a flat surface!:eek:

[David DeCristoforo]

"...one demerit for suggesting the use of a flat surface..."

Only one?!? Boy, you guys are really forgiving!

[Roger Chandler]

John,

I think the leather dye pops the grain the best........and would give the best appearance to a work in black and red, at least from the sample you show.

It depends on what you are going for........if grain pop is one of the primary goals, then the leather dye.........if you are going for more of an even base layer of black to which red will be overlaid, then that is a different issue............

Any hints on what you are looking to achieve? Of course, of all the posters I am the least in knowledge about dyes, but I do have a pretty good eye for how things look..............

[Marc Himes]

To really judge between them they need to be applied to the same grain. You may find them all to be satisfactory, but the curl in the wood makes it difficult to be objective. The technique sure is fun and interesting. I have found that in dying wood, especially when overlapping with different colors I never really know how the piece will turn out. I can work with it and change it if I am not satisfied, but it is always fun. Curly maple is one of the best woods to dye in my opinion. I look forward to seeing the finished product.

Marc Himes

[Steve Schlumpf]

John - neat little experiment!

I find only the Leather Dye and India Ink provide a good black. As far as which works best with a red overlay - the Leather Dye looks good but it seems to have left a lot of black coloring between the red stripes. The India Ink - while less vivid - doesn't leave black areas between the red coloring. Makes me wonder what would happen with a couple of applications of the ink - sanded back - then the red. Course, all this is just to give you an idea of what dyes actually provide a real black.

Just me - but it's a toss up between the Leather Dye and the India Ink.

Looking forward to seeing your dye project once it is completed!

[John Keeton]

Thanks for all the input. I will leave this topic with this comment from Ms. Keeton - "I don't know why you feel you need to dye all these beautiful woods?!?!?" I am thinking this piece may end up natural!:o:D Perhaps this information will come in handy on another one.

[John Beaver]

John,
Thanks for sharing. On my monitor the Fiebings looks the "blackest" to me, and it's the one I have had the most success with.

I think it's important to note also, that different finishes (even black) will appear differently depending on the wood they are applied to. I always keep a corner cut-off from my original blank so I can test the finish before applying it to the final product.

[Art Kelly]

The pics seem to be true to color so far as I can tell

Did you do a manual color balance on your camera? This always helps when comparing one image to the other, because the auto color balance does its thing anew based on each image. This means that the color-balance value will be slightly different if you compare pictures of different objects that are different colors.

$0.02
Art (Muddy Water) Kelly

[Larry Dubia]

John,
Did you apply the stain while turning or just wipe it on. I like the finished color of the red overlay. That is neat. I may just have to try some of this stuff. Is there a place I can learn more about this such as a tutorial or in the library? I would love to learn more.

You could have called this thread Black and blue...but then people wold think you beat your wood into shape. :eek:

On a side note...what is the status of the contest?

[Steve Vaughan]

Thanks for these pics, they really help. I just bought some black leather dye that I'm gonna use on a bowl I turned out of gum. I'll post pics of it when I get it done.

[Mark Burge]

I agree with Art. Once you get comparable pics, you could use the color balance on photoshop or another photo manipulation program to get a sense for what other colors are coming through in the dye. Could be fun to play with!

[Greg Ketell]

American Woodworker #150, Oct/Nov 2010 is their "Wood Finishing Special". They had an article about ebonizing wood. The solution he found best was to soak the wood with a mixture of tannic acid, let that dry. While it dries dissolve a steelwool pad in white vinegar. When the steel wool is fully dissolved you have Iron Oxide which, all your fences tell you, reacts with tannic acid to make black. Wipe the wood with the solution and let dry. You will have dark gray. Wipe it with the solution again and you will have pitch black but the grain will still show through. With this, even poplar looked good.

Then they had an article covering exactly what you are trying to do, use black aniline dye to pop the grain on tiger-maple, sand back, coat with blue dye. He then sealed it with shellac and applied a glaze of the same blue color to really POP the look. Follow that with your top coat for a final product.

A really good magazine.

[Karl Card]

i like the the leather and also the india ink experiments the best..


have you ever tried food coloring?

[Thom Sturgill]

I was going to suggest a flat board, but Baxter did that. A cylindical test piece would be best for a turner. I like the leather dye for the use you are testing for, but the Arti would work well for ebonizing assuming that one did not want to go the full Iron Oxide treatment.

[Prashun Patel]

I think you have to control the experiment better by removing all other variables. I'd test it on a flat, single piece of wood from the stock you'll be working on.

I do find Transtint black to be 'blueblack'. I sat a dilution of black in distilled h20 in a heated light box for a year, and it appeared to get even more blue over time.

[Rob Cunningham]

John, I've also found TransTint black to have a blueish hue on some samples I made for some,dare I say it, flatwork. I wonder if you would get better absorption from the TT if you mixed it with water rather than DNA.
I do like the look of the leather dye and red TT.
Thanks for posting your results.

[charlie knighton]

John,

in the past i have used black patinating wax from Liberon with good effect. i usually either use liquid shoe dye or fabric dye, let dry, then the black patinating wax. normally i would spray with laquaer afterwards. the wax does need a coating of something. good luck and looking forward to seeing what you are after.