Help & ideas for Dust Collector and ductwork layout

[Joe Watson]

Hello everyone.
In short; plan on buying a Grizzly G0548Z 2HP Canister DC soon and would like to get some advice on ductwork.

"Shop" description
One man basement shop, work in progress (which is why im doing the ductwork research now):
Its gonna be an odd shape, kind of like an L
long leg of L will be around 20'x7' (L x W)
short leg will be around 10'x10' (L x W)
8' 10" height

As of now it will be sucking chips/dust from:
* Table router
* Hand router
* Table saw
* 10" Radial saw
* 10" Chop saw
* Sanding: hand 4" belt and 5" finish orbital
* Drill press: drilling and drum sander
* Planer (or joiner) - some time down the line
* Band saw (or scroll) - some time down the line

Pretty sure all machines will be on the 20x7 leg/side and then the sanding and finishing will be in the other.

Questions
Is the Grizzly G0548Z a good choice ?
I am looking for a long term DC and want something which will do a good job and make my life cleaner and eazyer ;)
Money is an issue, do not want to spend more then 4-5 hundred (which is pushing it, would love to get DC and ductwork for that). With S&H the Grizzly will be $470.
Any other suggestion would be great - only thing which i would prefer - if possible, is the DC runs on 220v.

Best way to run the ductwork ?
* Around the room level with the DC intake then "wying" up to machines
* Pipe up the wall and around the ceiling then dropping down to the machines

Can do ether one... the room is open now with only the perimitor walls studded (no sheet rock or electric yet).

Sizing of the ductwork ?
The Grizzly has one 6" or three 4"
Run one 6" line around the room and wye off with 4" to each machine ?

"Cyclone Trash Can" ?
From reading it seams like these add life to a DC's impeller and filter and make it easyer to empty the chips being you dont have to remove and reconnect the DC's bag, true ?

-----------------------------------

What i was thinking
Making a homemade "Cyclone Trash Can" along the lines of this one:
http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=262.0
I have one sealed plastic 55gl drum (taken from work which 'simple green' was stored in) and will soon have a second. After looking at a few different "Cyclone Trash Can's" (homemade and manufactured), i like the concept of the one in the link above; for mine, i would make the top round (using pieces of the second drum) instead of an octagon like the other person did. Maybe adding a small RC-Plane's propeller mounted on a bolt and bearing to the center of the baffle directly under the cans exhaust to help create more circular air motion.

Replacing the 6x4x4x4 fitting on the DC with a short 6" pipe to a 6" wye.
Running through the 6" wye to "the can" with a blast gate in-between, then run a 6" line along two walls with two wyes (one foot apart) to get around a wall corner - roughly 20' long (total length of pipe) at the same height as the top of "the can" then 4 wyes up to the machines (one wye will be centrally located hooked to a 3" or 2" hose to clean by hand), gating at all wyes.

Then with the leg off the first 6" wye (before “the can”) - gating that one as well then running a 6" line up to the ceiling (need to get around a door way) around a corner down to a sanding area (roughly 35' of pipe)... maybe an overhead hood and a homemade "down draft" box or table top.


Any feed back, advice, suggestion, ideas - anything; please post your voice - i like opinions :)

Have a good one


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[Philip Rodriquez]

Personally, I think the DC unit is undersized for your plan. Check out Bill Pentz's site. I'm sure someone will post the link or you can just google it.

The main problem is the length of your runs. The next one is that a single stage DC will lose CFM as the dust makes it to the filters. Both will kill your air speed (CFM) and impact your plan.

If you need to stay within your budget, look at clustering your power tools so you can limit your runs (< 10 feet). Another option is just to move the DC to the tool.

[Joe Watson]

Thanks for the post, Philip.

I would really like to run the duck work and not move the DC.
Redesigning the shop is ok.


=======================
// \\
// \\
|| (up the wall) ||
|| ||
====== T-Can === DC ||
|| ||
|| ||
|| ----
|| (12' between corner and radial) -door-
|| ----
|| ||
|| \\
\\ Radial ||
|| ||
\\ Table Router/Saw |--------|
|| (sanding)
|| (8-9' to french door)
||
||
(French Door to back yard)


Need to look for a simple CAD program for Ubuntu (Linux O/S) and stop the "stick-figure" drawing ;)

As of now, the only thing which im pretty sure i want is to have atleast 10-12 foot from the corner by 'the trash can' to the first machine so i can feed longer planks through it - can push them out the french door if needed.



... Check out Bill Pentz's site....
Been doing some reading off his site, but its alot of info to consume at once, let-alone understand.

While using the 'staticcalc.xls' spreadsheet from Bill Pentz's site and some of my own research i may push the budget alittle more, been looking at 3HP DC's, mainly the Grizzly G0562Z which has 16.9" static pressure, $669.00 to my door.

If im using the Pentz's staticcalc.xls spreadsheet correctly, to my farthest machine there will be a SP loss of 9.15 with 1,000 required CMF, 4,000 FPM @ 20' of 6" pvc with one 90, 3' of 6" flex, 1.5' of 4" pcv, 1.5' of 4" flex and a Trash Can Collector.

Incase someone else is reading this - here are acouple links which i have found usfull:
http://www.jettoolparts.com/Dust_Collection_Planning_Setup.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=yEAQkUpk_8AC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&source=bl&ots=bMLA-lyFVX&sig=5FLK-RA9sj8bBS0IBOALyDpGlTw&hl=en&ei=I92_TJQvgvrwBuba7PIF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DCBasics.cfm
Link to Static Calculator [.xls] at the top of the Pentz's site.





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[Dave MacArthur]

Joe,
With what you describe for your shop and limfacs, and assuming a 2HP DC, here is what I would do:
1. Mount your DC at the inside corner of the L, so it's as close to everything as it can be stationary. Mount it up high near ceiling, so there is no vertical 90 degree for intake.
2. Use either a Thien baffle as you describe between your DC and the machines, or a cyclone--you can build a Pentz cyclone for a decent price.
2. Exhaust your DC outside through the wall, no canister or filter at all. I can't tell where you might have basement windows or outside access from your description. If you're able to reach outside from the inside of the L at the corner, great, otherwise, exhaust through an 8" pipe to outside. There's a tradeoff to calculate between exhausting through a run but through a larger pipe, but being closer to the dust producers and having shorter 6" intake runs, VS. placing DC to exhaust right outside through a wall but having longer intake runs. The airspeed in the intake runs will have to be kept higher to entrain the chips, around 4000fpm, thus you need 6" pipes... but if you're stripping out the chips, you can then exhaust at a lower airspeed and still keep any remaining small dust entrained, so 8" or larger duct, which THUS reduces friction/pressure/static pressure losses. The limit of this concept is how some folks exhaust into a huge box.
3. Make all your intake runs 6", and attempt to go straight across the ceiling to clusters of machines. I'd put one DC drop in each leg of the L. You could also make runs along the side walls from the DC. Use Y's, you should be able to make each run see only one Y, right near the DC. From your main 6" branches, you should drop DOWN to each machine with a 45 deg Y using 6" pipe to the max extent, perhaps right into the dust-source hoods with solid 6" pipe. If that's not possible, then transition to 6" flex tube for as SHORT a length as possible. That doesn't mean 6" flex from machine all the way up to ceiling...
4. From the main runs that go across ceiling, if you use them, I'd try to do a single drop down to a cluster of machines that you place back-to-back to reduce DC runs to them.
5. DON'T USE 4" anywhere in your system! If your machines have 4" ports, expand them to 6". If you absolutely don't want to do that, then neck the 6" pipe down to 4" via a short transition right at the machine hookup.
6. Depending on where you can place your DC to exhaust outside, you may want to consider a "push through" setup where the chips hit the impeller first, then get pushed through a cyclone. I like removing chips BEFORE the impeller, but there are some advantages to the push through for emptying if you're running a DC in-line with a chip removal device (thien baffle or cyclone) anyways vs. mounted on top as a combined unit.
7. Your enemy will be static pressure losses with a 2HP blower and the lengths of your runs (20' maybe). In order of badness, things that will make your system lose performance (increase static pressure losses): exhausting inside through a filter, 90 degree bends, 45 degree joints, 4" runs, flex-tube, longer 6" runs. For your chip-removal, I am not sure of the SP losses of cyclone vs. baffle, but a well designed cyclone will remove much more of the dust and produce a cleaner exhaust. This may be a factor for you depending on where you're exhausting.

Lastly, for me personally, I would not want to exhaust inside IN A BASEMENT via a filter setup unless I was running through a highly efficient cyclone to reduce load on filter. Too much hassle of filter clogging/breakdown and worry of fine dust (fines) in the same air my kids breathe upstairs for me.

Good luck!

[Paul Wunder]

Joe,

Your real problem is understanding the "real" capacity of the Grizzly DC. The owner's manual states max 1700 cfm and a max 10.0 static pressure. It doesn't state that it can do both simultaneously. It can't. Most single stages will put out about half of what the mfg. states. That will get you to about 850 cfm in the real world. I am not knocking Grizzly; I own some of their equipment. I started with a Delta 50-760 (1 1/2 hp) and moved it from machine to machine until I upgraded to a cyclone. The Delta, one of the better units out there, was decent.

Keep your runs under ten feet, as others have said. Follow the owner's manual on how to go from 6" main to 4", and don't use flex unless it is for only a few feet. If it works for you, then great. Be prepared to the possibilty that you may have to revert to connecting the DC to each machine one at a time. It all depends on your expectations.

[Dave MacArthur]

Here's some info on the Grizzly 548Z, in regards to suction. Their specs say:
Air Suction Cap............................................... 1700 CFM
Maximum Static Pressure.................................. 10 in.

That's it for that machine... however, for their new G0703 1.5HP mobile cyclone DC, they do give some more data and how they measured it, so you can use the info to extrapolate similar results for the 548Z. By the way, I'm extremely impressed Grizzly posted this helpful data on their new DC, it shows a good and responsible trend:
Operation
Air Suction Capacity (30A, w/o 5" Port).................................775 CFM
Static Pressure at Maximum Air Suction Capacity
(30A, 110V Circuit w/o 5" Port)............................. 1.80"
Maximum Static Pressure (30A, 110V Circuit w/o 5" Port).......... 10"
Air Suction Capacity (20A, 110V Circuit w/5" Port)..................695 CFM
Static Pressure at Maximum Air Suction Capacity
(20A, 110V Circuit w/5" Port)............................... 2.90"
Maximum Static Pressure (20A, 110V Circuit w/5" Port).......... 9.8"
Intake Hole Size................6" (or 5" with Included Reducer)

Ok, this means that with no load, no piping, running full open/max amps, their 1.5HP device will suck 775 CFM, and while doing so there is only 1.8" of static pressure (no piping, so it's just the pressure loss of the cyclone). And as you restrict the flow of air gradually until there is no flow, the thing will pull 10" of static pressure. Now, just by putting a short 6" or so reducer on the machine, that is a 6" to 5" reducer they call their 5" port, the CFM drops by 80 CFM down to 695CFM, and the static pressure drops to 9.8. All that from one foot long section of 5" reducer or so.

Now, can you see that adding a single 90, a Y, 20' of 6" pipe, and some flex hose, would drive you down to 400 CFM or so? Assuming a straight line linear relationship between 775CFM/1.8" and 0CFM 10", we lose 95CFM per 1" of static pressure. You can look at tables and see how each fitting is 1" of SP or more... And you're not really supposed to run it at 30A! It's really rated at 18.8A using 110V still, so now we're talking (again straight line approx) 18.8/30 * 775CFM = 485CFM when running at the specified/specs amperage of 18.8!

So let's apply the relative info learned above to the 2HP model. They don't say in the specs for the 548Z what the test conditions were, so we'll assume they were the same, that is running at full allowable load for the recommended min circuit size (30A for above, but for this one 15A). The motor is rated for 12A, so again let's reduce their CFM by a liner 12A/15A ration (4/5), so right there we're down to 4/5 * 1700CFM = 1360 real workig CFM at rated amperage. However, that CFM is at "wide open no restrictions", we'll assume 1.8" static pressure again like the machine above. So, again assuming linear SP to CFM losses, we'll lose 165CFM for each 1" of static pressure loss.

Your calculations are for roughly 9" of static pressure loss?....
.... you see where I"m going here. Yes, the real CFM/"SP is not linear, but the answer is still the same: you need to absolutely minimize SP loss, and your example of calculated SP loss with 90 degree etc. is waaaay too high.

Hope that helps ;)

[Joe Watson]

Ive have not put any deep thought into venting out-side. At first it was an instant -no (will have to do research on how to best contain the chips/dust out there - have nabors and dont want to crud-up the out side of the house), but it is something which i will keep in mind, it seams like it would be a great space and money saver.

After reading a few different sites and threads from other forums and blogs im starting to see the "gimmicks" companies user in there specs. Being the Grizzly stuff seams to be good entry level machinery (wood or metal working) i kind of figured there was something to it, but after running the numbers and seeing the presser loss, im pretty sure if i do not vent out the side of the house (there are no windows, but i can lop a hole in the wall near the french door) ill end up with the Grizzly G0562Z 3HP Canister.

As with my expectations... right now there is dust and chips everywhere (its sicking). Just tonight i jury-rigged a temporary "hood" on the back of the radial and hooked it to my shop vac and was very impressed how well it worked, but it is no where near the final results i would like. I would really like to shoot for "spot-less" so in the end i can settle with very-clean :)


Started to play around with a CAD program (qCAD for any Linux users out here) and drew up the following (not the best, but the point gets across).
Its pretty close to being to scale, once i get a stronger idea of what i want to do (and become more conferable with qCAD) i will redraw everything to scale.


The first image (open floor) is how the basement currently is.

Some of my reasoning of the layout (definitely open for suggestions).
The radial is an old Craftsman which the head can swivel and rip planks, the "arm" can also swing beyond 90deg to the right so i can swing it over and get it out of the way. Placing the machines on the wall to the left will enable me to open one of the French doors if needed for long planks.

Its been a while since ive played any music, but a small music room is *needed*. The 7' 6" music wall might become alittle bigger by a foot. I thought if i created a small 3' cavity behind the music room (im 6'3 @ 170lbs so i dont need alot of room to get back there :p ) i could store all material there with a lengh around 15' before it will inter-fear with the french doors.

I was thinking for the "sanding & staining" bench, i could have a narrow bench mounted to the wall, then have an extension to make it a little wider (or longer) if need be.

Just to give alittle insight on what i plan on making (to give better perspective on space and layout of the workshop).
- Im finishing up a 22x22 addition to my home (thats whats above the work shop) which is a master bedroom, so the following will be made in the basement; finish the 60" vanity (draws and doors), corner piece cabinets for both sides of the bathroom mirror, bed, dresser, inwall shelves and cabients.
- Then the kitchen will be next, all cabinets
- Then finish off old-basement with TV/media cabinet, end tables and more then likely a computer desk.
- And somewhere in-between simple things for friends and nabors.


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[Paul Wunder]

Joe,

You are already headed down the slippery slope of increasing cost (G05622). Once you add the required ductwork and Thein baffle you will find two things have occurred:

Your dust collection footprint will be huge in a small shop"
50"x20" for the collector PLUS the additional footprint for the baffle.

Your total cost may ultimately surprise you once you add the ductwork.

I suggest that you look at the Grizzly 2HP cyclone (G0440). It is a proven unit, with a reliable fan curve and it is a true dust collector and cyclone. It will handle all of your ductwork and collection needs without outdoor venting and do it all in a single 20"x 50" footprint. The cost is $1044 delivered.

I own a ClearVue, but that is overkill for you. It is always easy for others to spend your money, but many of us start with a dust collector, get disappointed and then move up.

Paul

[Joe Watson]

Hello again...
Just peeked at the Grizzly site and the price for there 3HP has dropped, shipped to the door at $469.00
http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-HP-Dust-Collector-with-New-Impeller/G1030Z2

Would the following be a bad idea ?
- Getting the 3HP, using it "as-is" (with the dust bags).
- Home-made separator fitted for a 8" exhaust and 6" intake (made a small experimental one for a shop-vac and was surprised how well it worked (images below)).
- Use 6" S&D pipe for ductwork to machines (pipe will be around $150 with fittings) and branch to machine with 4" flex (as short as possible)

- When more money is found (a few months from now), buying (2) Farr Style 9L300BL filters, stacking them and creating a cyclone simulare to the white one in the pics below using the 3HP Grizzly motor and impeller .


Just bought a Ridged 13" planer and the shop-vac can not keep up with it so it looks like the next "big-toy" will have to be the DC; and seeing the price for the 3HP, it seams like a pretty good deal.


Your thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks.



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