First Dye attempt

[Roger Chandler]

Okay,

Earlier this afternoon Steve Schlumpf spoke to me of trying a dye job for some blanks I cut. I have absolutely ZERO experience with anything dye related. I have not been able to dismiss his challenge, as I have seen some really great works on this forum with those who have worked with dyes.

So my question is, what would be the best way to approach a first project? For example, what type form, then should I use Rit, transtint, or is there some other things on the market that are better? Do I mix with water or DNA? Is mixing only for Rit, or does one have mix all types of dye.

What about sanding back part of the finish to show some wood? :confused: I don't know..:confused::confused:......I've only read a few things here.............that is the reason I am asking these questions, and want to solicit information for those that I failed to ask?!!!

So for the rankest amateur, what would be the safest and most do-able thing for this willing adventurer? I'm all ears, and hopefully Schlumpf and Keeton and DeCristoforo will help a novice in this area out...........all others are invited to chime in also, and put your $.02 in as well.

[Michael James]

Roger,
The best advice I've gotten here is "Just go for it". Paralysis through analysis is of no service. Dye is cheap and test it on your particular specie, and if you dont like it try a different dye or color.
As my friend Joe M says "come on dude, this stuff grows on trees!":D

Good luck!
mj

[Roger Chandler]

Roger,
The best advice I've gotten here is "Just go for it". Paralysis through analysis is of no service. Dye is cheap and test it on your particular specie, and if you dont like it try a different dye or color.
As my friend Joe M says "come on dude, this stuff grows on trees!":D

Good luck!
mj

Gee Mike, cut the guts out of me! :eek::D:D:D:D I am not a timid kind of person, in the least! Those who know me know I have to work at containing my boldness.

I am one that likes to collect information, formulate a plan, and up my chances of gaining a success for the time and effort put into something. There is a point however that your "paralysis through analysis" is valid, so I will try my best not to cross that line.

With Steve's suggestion, I am exploring the process through the efforts of others to see if I can maximize my first attempt. I hate a lot of trial and error.......just me.

Thanks for the challenge to step up to the plate.....I appreciate it! :)

[David DeCristoforo]

"I am one that likes to collect information, formulate a plan, and up my chances of gaining a success..."

So how ever did you decide to take up turning? As far as I can see, if there was one endeavor that is full of unexpected surprises, this would be it.

Anyway, for my first dye effort, I used leather dye. It is alcohol based and works great on wood. Tons of colors, relatively inexpensive and easy to find (just go to your local shoe repair shop). I also ordered some aniline dyes (also alcohol based... I don't particularly like the grain raising effect of water based dyes although people like Steve S. and others have had great success with them).

The thing is, this is not something where you can really plan the result because you never know how any given piece of wood is going to take the color. A guess based on experience is about as close as you are going to get.

[Roger Chandler]

"I am one that likes to collect information, formulate a plan, and up my chances of gaining a success..."

So how ever did you decide to take up turning? As far as I can see, if there was one endeavor that is full of unexpected surprises, this would be it.

Anyway, for my first dye effort, I used leather dye. It is alcohol based and works great on wood. Tons of colors, relatively inexpensive and easy to find (just go to your local shoe repair shop). I also ordered some aniline dyes (also alcohol based... I don't particularly like the grain raising effect of water based dyes although people like Steve S. and others have had great success with them).

The thing is, this is not something where you can really plan the result because you never know how any given piece of wood is going to take the color. A guess based on experience is about as close as you are going to get.

Thank you David,

Now the information you gave me is not something I would have known without someone who has experienced it sharing it with me. You have given me a start. I had never even considered leather dyes, and I did not know that they or aniline dyes were alcohol based.

As for taking up turning........I have a love for wood working in general, and new challenges, when I really want to do something, it only makes me more determined, and I have this thing about excellence.........I try to achieve it in the things I care about. If I care enough to do it, then I want to do it very well [albeit, the learning curve with turning is long and has many surprises, as we all have found out:)]

You Sir, have upped my chances of success on the first attempt.........thank you again!

[John Keeton]

Roger, IMO the considerations for a dyed piece depend a lot on what you want to achieve.

Form - not sure this matters much. I think SW forms should be limited to earth tones and reds generally, though I have seen some beautiful SW works involving vivid colors - much I think depends on the graphics used, if any.

The type of dye depends on what you have on hand vs. lightfastness. If you are experimenting, then I doubt it matters. If you are doing a piece "for keeps" then I think some consideration of lightfast qualities are important. Metallized acid dyes such as Transtint are most lightfast. Generally, if you have the three primary colors, any other color can be mixed except black.

However, Transtint are not cheap relatively speaking - about $14-18 for 2 fl. oz. They can be dissolved in a DNA or water, but only a few drops are needed. A little dye goes a LONG way. I mix about a tablespoon or two for a small HF piece.

There are other types of dyes - somewhere I have a handout provided by Jamie Donaldson at one of our meetings. I scanned it and emailed it to Steve, but must not have saved the digital copy. Others used with good lightfast qualities are diluted acrylic paints, some auto pigments, artists inks, etc.

Personally, I prefer using figured wood for dye applications. I think they maximize the impact of the dye - burls, curly maple, BE maple, quilted maple, etc. On plain woods (maple) I have seen dyes used effectively with an airbrush for shading. David D. used an airbrush on his last piece with good impact. I have not tried that, but it is on the short list!;)

You MUST have the piece sanded to a finish grit prior to applying dye. Failure on this step will show every sand mark remaining on the piece.

On some applications, I have applied black first, then sanded it back considerably (more than you think you should), then apply another color over that. The black will remain in the soft areas of the figure/grain and sand out of the hard areas where it did not absorb as deeply. The overall effect is dramatic and may not be what you want. You must also be aware that some black dyes contain a lot of blue and will alter other colors applied over them - give yellow a green caste, make red a wine color, etc.

As far as sanding back to show some of the wood, I can't think of an application where that would be something I would do.

[David E Keller]

I'm far from being an expert with dyes, but I'll give you a couple of thoughts. If you've got access, Jimmy Clewes has a couple of good DVDs that demonstrate his dye process. He uses alcohol based dyes(Chestnut finishes from the UK) and then sometimes sprays with DNA to help blend the colors together. The only reason I can see to sand the surface back is for the addition of other colors or to lighten a previous application. Beware of color combinations that don't compliment one another... I'd probably stick with two colors at the most for an initial foray into coloring.

I say 'go for it'! Just cover whatever surface you don't want colored and go Jackson Pollock on the piece.:D

[David DeCristoforo]

"...sometimes sprays with DNA to help blend the colors together..."

That's another reason I prefer aniline dyes. It's also much easier to "knock back" a color by using a rag dipped in alcohol than to try to do it by sanding.

[Roger Chandler]

This will be a thread that I will save and also print out when all the responses come in. I did not know a lot of what you all have spoken of already.

I don't think without this input that I would have had a chance at a good result without several trial runs, and disappointments.

This is good stuff, and I really do appreciate all of you taking the time! I think there will be others that read this that will benefit as well as this has good information.

I already have a form in mind, and received my inspiration as far as coloring from DD. I'm kinda itching to try it, soon!

[Steve Schlumpf]

Roger - when it comes to dyeing your work - you have lots of options.

I started off with RIT dye because it was available locally. Lots of colors available and it is fairly cheap! Even though RIT is a clothing dye - I mix it with DNA because I want it to dry fast and not raise the grain. The grain will still raise some - but a couple of light passes with 320 grit takes care of that.

Instead of rewriting all the steps I normally take when dyeing a piece - check out these 2 threads:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=121497
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=121669

Should give some things to think about. If you have any questions - let us know.

[Prashun Patel]

I haven't done any turning dyeing, but have done a fair bit of flatwork dye.

I recommend Transtint in water. Pick a color - any color. Start with a 2% solution in distilled water.

Sand to your finished grit - going more than 180 or 220 can start to burnish the wood and inhibit penetration. Then wet the wood with a damp sponge. Let it dry, and 'knock down the grain' with the same grit you finished with.

Then sponge on your dye. Sponging with a water solution of 2% is good because it gives you lots of control without risking lap marks - which you can get when sponging dye dissolved in alcohol. You can make it darker by simply adding more coats.

The water based / aniline dyes tend to be more light fast than oil based counterparts. Powder dyes are more economical but are messy to work with.

The dye will dry 'dead looking' - don't despair; it'll look like it does when it's wet after you topcoat it.

If you are topcoating with shellac or a waterbased topcoat, you'll need to 'spray' a barrier coat of shellac first. If you use an oil based topcoat - like oil poly, you won't need a barrier coat and you can wipe it on, but try not to rub too much; the dye will lift a little even in oil.

[Roger Chandler]

Steve,

Look what you started! :eek::eek::D I am printing the thread you listed off as I am writing this. I will refer to them as I get the DNA and dye purchased and some wood together for my first dyed attempt.

Well, I guess if we are not moving forward, we are going backwards. If we aren't learning, then we are dying [I don't mean the coloring dye either ;)]

Thanks, for the help and the challenge.........I think:p;):D:D:)

[Michael James]

Gee Mike, cut the guts out of me! :eek::D:D:D:D Thanks for the challenge to step up to the plate.....I appreciate it! :)

Roger, the comment was self referential....but seeing's how you identify, well, if the shoe fits... I'll share!:D

What a great source of info you initiated, thanks!
mj

[Bernie Weishapl]

Roger I use transtint dye's with DNA and I also use RIT dye. It is cheaper than Transtint but transtint is a good.

[Roger Chandler]

Okay, I went out and bought Denatured Alcohol and Rit dye in 3 colors today.

They are scarlet, black and green.

When I can get the time, and a suitable piece of wood, then it is Katie bar the door, cause there is going to be a first dyed piece from me! I am thinking of doing a goblet with a flared rim area [think inverted bell shape]with an ebonized stem and a scarlet body.

I do not have any burl or figured maple! I do have a few maple blanks that are partially green, that were cut back in the early spring of this year. Would it be too soon to pull one of those out? They are still in log form and have sealed ends. [about 6-7 inches in diameter]

[John Keeton]

Roger, I have never tried it, but I think you will have difficulty with damp wood getting a good dye application.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I have never tried it, but I think you will have difficulty with damp wood getting a good dye application.


Well, John, now that you mention it, that makes perfect sense.......it is a good thing I talk to some folks who know what they are doing, cause I did not think that one through........no experience with dye at all.

What is your opinion of my project concept? I do have some baseball bat blanks that our club got from the factory [2nds] some maple and some ash.....would that be good to use?

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, the comment was self referential....but seeing's how you identify, well, if the shoe fits... I'll share!:D

What a great source of info you initiated, thanks!
mj


Thanks MJ! :D