Watermarked Artwork

[Robert Walters]

Knowing that it is very frustrating when you quote a job at a fair price and people take the sample artwork you created and start price shopping...


Assuming that you are not biased against the shop that created the artwork.
Someone comes to you with watermarked artwork, would you take/quote the job?

[Lee DeRaud]

Someone comes to you with watermarked artwork, would you take/quote the job?I'd say go ahead and quote it.

Of course, the up-charge to remove the watermark should be high enough (like maybe 100X the normal price) to induce more ethical behavior on the part of that customer.:cool:

[Dan Hintz]

I would do my best to find out where the original artwork came from and give the client a choice: get permission from the original artist themselves or let me do it (charged appropriately for the extra legwork, of course). If they choose to walk away completely, I'd contact the artist and let them know their artwork is being shopped. No problems about the client off as you don't want that kind of client anyway... they'll do it to you the moment it serves their purpose.

[Robert Walters]

I'd say go ahead and quote it.

Of course, the up-charge to remove the watermark should be high enough (like maybe 100X the normal price) to induce more ethical behavior on the part of that customer.:cool:

I don't know, sometimes it difficult to quote a job, much less to know a quote someone received is fair.

Look at contractors, someone might quote $9000 to remodel a bathroom, and someone else quotes $14000.


If you took the time to create a detailed sample, what about charging $25 to $100 for the sample artwork, which is credited towards the actual job if they approve it?

Is that discouraging new customers?
Is it just filtering the "window shoppers"?

[Martin Boekers]

I do samples and tests all the time, they become property of my shop.

Clients don't recieve a usable file, typically a low res PDF.

I typically don't charge for artwork so there is no doubt on who owns it.
If for some reason I do charge they are advised of their rights to artwork
use at that time.

We commision artwork from time to time and pay for certain rights.

Something to consider on your watermark would include unauthorized use will be
persued to the full extent of the law. May make them think twice
before using it, addressing penalties to me, means much more than a copyright mark.

So first off, no I would not even bid on it, if I know the owner of the copyright I may even
contact them to make them aware of the situation.

Marty

[Robert Walters]

I typically don't charge for artwork so there is no doubt on who owns it.
If for some reason I do charge they are advised of their rights to artwork
use at that time.

Good point, I didn't consider that. "Well, I paid for it"

I guess it goes back to the same as photography, the photographer owns the copyright.

[Martin Boekers]

If you took the time to create a detailed sample, what about charging $25 to $100 for the sample artwork, which is credited towards the actual job if they approve it?

Is that discouraging new customers?
Is it just filtering the "window shoppers"?


I think that's a desicion for you to make, but yes I feel it's fair to charge for
artwork costs and credit to the order. Many businesses charge for a
diagnosis, or a service call and credit back. If the client is a consistant client that you
deal with they may and should be handled differently
than a fresh walk off the street customer.

I have done many jobs that the client argued pricing, which I advised
them of other local places or alternatives only to have them come back when they
realize I was most reasonable to start with.;)

Some feel pricing for just plates is too much,
then I recommend a local scrapbook shop that sells a nice selection of cardstocks that they can
print for their plates.

If they feel a base or a wood plaque is to much, I suggest that we rent time
for full wood shop use and they can save that portion if they make it themselves.
The usual reply is they don't have the time for that, but
at least most realize that what is more important their time or saving $10
or $12 dollars.

This typically works without alienating anyone.

Marty

[Joe Pelonio]

I have been in that situation before where I had multiple customers bidding on a contract that included signs, and I did the artwork for several of them at the same location. In those cases as long as one of them got the contract I'd get the work because they gave me all their work for years. If someone new asking for a price quote and proofs then
there has to be a charge, so you have something to cover the time if they shop it around. Watermarks can easily be removed and not all shops are honest. I've had people bring me art that actually still has the other shop's name and copyright information on it to quote. I'd quote based on the size, material and general design but would tell them that I would also add design charges because I cannot use what they brought me.

[Robert Walters]

No problems about the client off as you don't want that kind of client anyway... they'll do it to you the moment it serves their purpose.

Dan,

Very good point!

[Mike Null]

I don't recall having anybody send artwork created by another engraver in my 12 years in the business. I've been suspicious that people have used my art with other companies but have no proof of that.

I am a little more careful today and I don't send artwork unless I have the order except for name tags.

I never send it in a form which can be edited.

I have had customers send their own artwork/layout which is usually done in PowerPoint. I accept that as their own.

[Robert Walters]

Mike,

If you are going to edit posts, please at least replace the questionable content with asterisks "******" or some such thing.

As I've reread others posts, it's taking what they are saying out of context and causing a bit of confusion.

Thanks!

[Dee Gallo]

Assuming that you are not biased against the shop that created the artwork.
Someone comes to you with watermarked artwork, would you take/quote the job?

As an artist myself, I would not appreciate anyone reproducing my original designs/drawings without permission. If it's watermarked, that shows it is protected and if the client cannot give you a clean copy, they don't have permission or ownership.

It is not up to you to seek permission, unless you have nothing better to do with your time. Even if you negotiate permission for a price, that does not guarantee the customer will pay you for it or proceed with the job, even.

When push comes to shove, you'd be liable for the copyright infringement, not the customer, since you are the one who took money for the work. And if you ever create a copyright image yourself, you'll know what it feels like to be robbed.

That's my 2 cents, dee

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree with Dee.

I also think it's your job to educate your potential client on why they can't do it. Explain that paying someone to draw something for you doesn't give them ownership of that graphic and that they are actually asking you to break the law and that's not something you wish to do. You can then explain how the proper way to handle it is and walk them through it. You will either, A, gain a lot of respect from them for being an honest business person, or B, they'll walk out their door and take it to someone that will do it.

Either way, at the end of the day, you will have done the right thing.

I have a company that refers me constantly. Most times, I'm the only one quoting, but I still treat them fairly. I got a referral, the customer wanted some work done for their lobby. Knowing I get most everything I quote from this relationship, I am more generous with spending time doing renderings, etc. So they ask to see what it would look like, I draw their wall, get the color right, create my piece in Illustrator, put it all in place, sized it all so it looks right, put people in the photo for scaling purposes, etc. Really did a nice job on it (didn't spend much time, but it did look nice).

No phone call. No email. No nothing. Emails unanswered, voice mail when I call. No big deal. Go by there on other business in the building, walk by there and they had the piece I designed on their wall. I never even got to quote it. They took my artwork and had someone else do it.

Guess how more times that's going to happen (hint, less than 1).

It's just wrong to use other people's artwork unless you know you have permission. You wouldn't want someone doing it to you, so why do it to someone else?

[Robert Walters]

I got a referral, the customer wanted some work done for their lobby. Knowing I get most everything I quote from this relationship, I am more generous with spending time doing renderings, etc. So they ask to see what it would look like, I draw their wall, get the color right, create my piece in Illustrator, put it all in place, sized it all so it looks right, put people in the photo for scaling purposes, etc. Really did a nice job on it (didn't spend much time, but it did look nice).

No phone call. No email. No nothing. Emails unanswered, voice mail when I call. No big deal. Go by there on other business in the building, walk by there and they had the piece I designed on their wall. I never even got to quote it. They took my artwork and had someone else do it.

Steve,

So not only did they stab you, they twisted the knife a few times, pulled it out, put it back in, and twisted some more.

I can't even imagine the agonizing pain/shock that you went through when you walked into the lobby and saw that.

Though we all use artwork to produce the effects we want on the laser, maybe it's time to look at it from a different perspective. Though I'm not sure how that would fit in most business models.

If you are building a home, you had the contractor (laser engraver) drawings (artwork) from an architect, and pay each one separately for their services.

[Scott Shepherd]

I wasn't mad at them, I was mad at myself and it lasted for about 1 hour and then I was over it.

I decided they were the type of customer I didn't want. I have some great relationships with many of my customers and last thing I want is to deal with idiots that treat me a like a commodity. So I think they did me a favor.

They also taught me a lesson I already knew, but wasn't practicing. I have to have a very good gut feeling now to do a rendering for free, in hopes of getting the job. If I'm the only one quoting and the interview process goes well, I'll do it. However, if I detect anything that just doesn't "feel" right, then I'll go into protection mode, saying "Once you order it, we'll do a rendering for you, and you we can work from that to establish the finished product" and they'll either bite or they won't.

I have one right now that is trying and trying to push me into doing the design so they can see it and I won't. I'm provided material samples and that's all I'm going to do for free. Want the finish product? Order it. Want free design? Go somewhere else.

[Robert Walters]

I wasn't mad at them, I was mad at myself and it lasted for about 1 hour and then I was over it.

I decided they were the type of customer I didn't want. I have some great relationships with many of my customers and last thing I want is to deal with idiots that treat me a like a commodity. So I think they did me a favor.

They also taught me a lesson I already knew, but wasn't practicing. I have to have a very good gut feeling now to do a rendering for free, in hopes of getting the job. If I'm the only one quoting and the interview process goes well, I'll do it. However, if I detect anything that just doesn't "feel" right, then I'll go into protection mode, saying "Once you order it, we'll do a rendering for you, and you we can work from that to establish the finished product" and they'll either bite or they won't.

I have one right now that is trying and trying to push me into doing the design so they can see it and I won't. I'm provided material samples and that's all I'm going to do for free. Want the finish product? Order it. Want free design? Go somewhere else.

Ah yes... I have learned to trust my gut instinct (the hard way) a long ago.

Well, maybe go into the graphic arts and charge accordingly.
Then if they decide to let you do the job, give them a discount.
If they go elsewhere, you've been paid for services rendered.

I got an F in drawing stickmen.
If it wasn't for CTRL+ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
I'd be in serious trouble =)

[Scott Shepherd]

Oh, don't confuse me with an artist. My background is mechanical and manufacturing engineering. I can draw you the perfect stick figure. It'll measure exactly the same and be symmetrical :)

I'd kill to have a grain of artistic ability.

[Dee Gallo]

Steve, engineers are artists unto themselves. Elegant engineering is just as beautiful as any other art.

:) dee

[Bill Cunningham]

I agree with Dee.

I also think it's your job to educate your potential client on why they can't do it. Explain that paying someone to draw something for you doesn't give them ownership of that graphic and that they are actually asking you to break the law and that's not something you wish to do. You can then explain how the proper way to handle it is and walk them through it. You will either, A, gain a lot of respect from them for being an honest business person, or B, they'll walk out their door and take it to someone that will do it.

Either way, at the end of the day, you will have done the right thing.

I have a company that refers me constantly. Most times, I'm the only one quoting, but I still treat them fairly. I got a referral, the customer wanted some work done for their lobby. Knowing I get most everything I quote from this relationship, I am more generous with spending time doing renderings, etc. So they ask to see what it would look like, I draw their wall, get the color right, create my piece in Illustrator, put it all in place, sized it all so it looks right, put people in the photo for scaling purposes, etc. Really did a nice job on it (didn't spend much time, but it did look nice).

No phone call. No email. No nothing. Emails unanswered, voice mail when I call. No big deal. Go by there on other business in the building, walk by there and they had the piece I designed on their wall. I never even got to quote it. They took my artwork and had someone else do it.

Guess how more times that's going to happen (hint, less than 1).

It's just wrong to use other people's artwork unless you know you have permission. You wouldn't want someone doing it to you, so why do it to someone else?

I've had this problem before.. How I solved it, is I wrote the 'offending' business a polite note on my letterhead telling them I was disappointed I did not get the actual job, but thrilled that you chose my design and artwork. Your invoice is enclosed, thank you for the opportunity to participate in this project . I had a cheque the following week, no questions asked..

[Robert Walters]

I had a cheque the following week, no questions asked..

Well, how much did you bill them for the "borrowed" artwork?

I don't ask just to be nosey, as much as trying to get an idea of what to bill someone for if it ever happens to me. I might do something like toss in a ---that may or may not be realistic to get results.

[Dee Gallo]

I've had this problem before.. How I solved it, is I wrote the 'offending' business a polite note on my letterhead telling them I was disappointed I did not get the actual job, but thrilled that you chose my design and artwork. Your invoice is enclosed, thank you for the opportunity to participate in this project . I had a cheque the following week, no questions asked..

Good for you, Bill!

:D dee

[Scott Shepherd]

Robert, keep in mind, if you designed it from scratch, then you OWN it. You can sell them the right to use it for certain purposes or you can sell them the rights to own it completely.

Ever pay to have a logo designed? They charge depending on the use. If you pay for a logo for a business card and letterhead, you cannot use it to have t-shirts made. You'd have to go back to the designer, pay them for use on the t-shirts, and move on.

It sounds crazy, but it's very real and people fight with it every day. So by charging someone $100 for your work, you better made very sure you both understand what that $100 is for, limited use, or you transfer ownership to them.

From what I have seen, it works like this- want a logo for business cards, etc. Then you might pay $500. Want to own that logo so you can do anything you want with it? That'll be $5,000. It's VERY expensive to buy a professionally created logo that you own all rights to.

[Martin Boekers]

Maybe a quick informational "contract" when we do pre-job artwork
that we could explain to the client that the design and layout is our property.

Not only our property but the as you say, they only have limited rights.

Those who deal with graphics and usage understand this, those that
normally don't, may have trouble understanding it.

Steve, you may not have given them actually files to work from, but, you still have rights
to the design.

I've been in commercial photography for years, and there have been
many lawsuits won, because someone liked a particular theme and
photo, then hired a photographer to reproduce it as close as possible.

I to as Bill did, would probably send an invoice for services rendered.

I may contact the company who refered them and tactfully explaine
what happened. I too recommend others to do jobs I can't produce
and my respect comes with that. I recommend reputable companies
that I know will treat them professionally and reasonably. On the same
end those companies devolop a trust with me for who I recommend.
So I would like to know if one that I sent over didn't treat them fairly
so I can handle future referals differentlly.


Marty

[pete hagan]

You folks have hit on a raw nerve here. In the special event business our designs are the core of our business and when you find your design is executed by another company it really is a touchy issue. Everyone borrows ideas from everyone else, that's reality. However taking ideas and implementing them as a whole package is where talent comes into play. To resolve the design stealing issues we have a very straight forward approach. We use a non-disclosure agreement with every client we work with from a small order to huge events. That way there is no ambiguity of who owns what and what can they do with it. All drawings have a legend (title box) that clearly states the ownership of the drawing / design. If we find that a client has used our design and shopped it out they get an invoice for the design work. One client recently balked at the invoice I sent to her when we discovered this occurred. My response was simply that she violated my trust in using documents which clearly limited her rights and that since she broke the contractual commitment she signed that she was liable for the expense. She refused and we sued both her employer and the vendor who actually used the drawings to build the display. Stupidly enough, the vendor didn’t even alter the drawings at all when they formally quoted the job back to the client. We just settled out of court for ~twelve times the original profit we anticipated making with this client and she now has been fired from the association she worked for. The dollar amount was significant enough that it warranted this action and it protected our position in the industry as being a trustworthy vendor, even when working as a sub-contractor.

Here is the rub. I have lost that client for future business but I have not lost my integrity. It put competitors on notice that stealing our designs will get immediate action. Now you can’t do this for everything and unless the money is significant (> 50,000) it isn’t worth it to sue. Our lawyers ate up over 50% of our settlement but it was worth it.

Search NDA or non-disclosure agreements and come up with a very simple one page agreement to use. Make it a standard business practice for every client. The funny thing is I had not used NDAs for many years unless it was a really big job / client until I went into a local trophy shop and they had a simple few sentences on their quote / order sheet that got me to think about it. The owner and I discussed this and it made sense because his business relies on his creativity even with stock components. He said that after implementing the NDA in his quotes he saw much fewer jobs lost from simple price shopping and more honesty from his customers when it became an issue. What is nice is that he even called me when a local client of mine used an old drawing we generated some 8 years ago as an example of something they wanted. I spoke with the client and they wanted something that we don’t do but wanted it in the STYLE of a rendered illustration of some casework. It reinforced my trust in the local trophy shop and reconnected me with a client that had simply stopped doing an annual dinner 5 years ago. Now we are designing a new trade show booth for their convention participation next year!

Stand on your principles and integrity.
“A little integrity is better than any career”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Scott Shepherd]

Good for you Pete! That's exactly what needed to happen!

Here's some free info on some contracts for anyone that's looking for info :

http://speckyboy.com/2010/08/12/5-free-to-use-freelance-design-contract-templates/

[Robert Walters]

She refused and we sued both her employer and the vendor who actually used the drawings to build the display. Stupidly enough, the vendor didn’t even alter the drawings at all when they formally quoted the job back to the client.


Pete,

Lets say the vendor was on the up and up...
Do you think if the vendor had the client sign a release that basically said

"I am the owner/authorized agent for all media, artwork provided and/or requested accept full liability for the use and duplication there of blah blah blah"

(The "requested" part comes from us (the vendor) using client requested logos in the job)

along with the NDA verbiage would be enough to release him/her from liability, especially since they have a release and made a good faith effort?

I'm thinking dealerships/distributors that have poster, etc created with the factory logos (Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Harley, Budweiser, etc) for use in the promotion of their business.

[Scott Shepherd]

Robert, if I recall correctly, that does not work.

For instance, if someone walks into your store and says "I want Mickey Mouse engraved on 500 pieces of granite" and you whip out the form and have them sign it, saying they have the authority, it does not release you from liability.

You'd think it would to some degree, but in all the things I have read about that part of the business, I seem to remember that you cannot have a "you can't hold me responsible" clause in the form that allows you to basically do harm and have no responsibility.

You have to use your judgement. If a ford dealer brings something, you're pretty safe in doing that. If someone walks in off the street and wants a ford logo, then you're pretty sure they don't have approval.

As a note, if someone has permission, then they will have it in writing, so it'll be no big deal to ask for it. If you see a blank look come over their face, then it's a safe bet they don't have permission.

[Dan Hintz]

That's a tough call, Steve... let's change it from Mickey Mouse to some non-descript logo no one has seen/heard of before. It's easy to say "You probably don't have permission for this" when it's a logo we're all familiar with like Disney, but not easy at all to say the same with a logo we've never seen. What if the shop owner was a foreigner fresh to the US and had no idea about Disney? As far as he is concerned, both logos are fair game, and the release should cover it. The law can't distinguish one from the other with the idea that "The shop owner should recognize the logo" when it comes to Disney but not the other.

Once the release is signed, the onus is legally on the person signing to obtain permission, assuming you've done your due diligence. That's not to say Disney can't come back and sue you anyway (and probably win considering their serious financial backing). In the case of someone who has lived all of their lives in Orlando and has Disney paraphernalia cluttering their desk, the judge is likely to side with Disney... in the case of the fresh-off-the-boat foreigner, the judge is more likely to side with the shop owner.

And how does one define due diligence in this case? No one can be expected to spend hours or days researching the owner of every logo that comes across their desk. In that case, it's better for the shop owner to not only have them sign a release, but to make sure that release stipulates the client has previously obtained permission and can provide proof of such (attach copy of permission letter, email, etc. here).

The point being, it's not cut and dried, but you can certainly cut down your liability from a legal standpoint...

[Robert Walters]

Robert, if I recall correctly, that does not work.

For instance, if someone walks into your store and says "I want Mickey Mouse engraved on 500 pieces of granite" and you whip out the form and have them sign it, saying they have the authority, it does not release you from liability.

Steve,

I'm thinking that may vary state-to-state. Take tool rental as example.
As long as the vendor makes a good faith effort to maintain the equipment in proper working order, and the renter uses a wood saw to cut through concrete which breaks the blade and the worker gets hurt. It's not the vendors responsibility for misuse.

As far as authorization letters, usually with franchises all that is in their contract. Say they are using a media service company to help promote their business, the media company is just going to have an intern do the grunt work in having products made for their client and may just be following instructions.

I think it would be very well worth the $200 to have an IP attorney to draw up a TOS/Release of liability/NDA document for use in day to day operations.

Pete, I like the NDA idea. I would have never considered that!

[Dee Gallo]

Pete,

Lets say the vendor was on the up and up...
Do you think if the vendor had the client sign a release that basically said

"I am the owner/authorized agent for all media, artwork provided and/or requested accept full liability for the use and duplication there of blah blah blah"

(The "requested" part comes from us (the vendor) using client requested logos in the job)

along with the NDA verbiage would be enough to release him/her from liability, especially since they have a release and made a good faith effort?

I'm thinking dealerships/distributors that have poster, etc created with the factory logos (Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Harley, Budweiser, etc) for use in the promotion of their business.

Robert, I have run into this with a business who accepts VISA or MASTERCARD wanting to have those logos on their brochure. Even though they are authorized to accept the card for payment, they STILL have to have permission to reprint the logo AND it must be the authorized version, no deviation at all in color, font, proportions or line.

You can think all you want as to what you think is logical, but the law is very clear regarding reproduction of copyrights and trademarks. You can't do it without written permission for a specific purpose unless you own the copyright outright, nor can you alter it.

cheers, dee

[Scott Shepherd]

Dan, I've followed many a threads from graphic artists and sign shop owners. I've read many cases where people have got themselves in serious trouble doing what you describe.

In the engraving world, we don't see it as much as other trades, but in the printing world/graphic arts world, this is a well known, well documented issue. I've seen posts by people suggesting the same thing that Robert is suggesting, just drawing up a general "it's not my fault" clause and having people sign it. Those threads have shown example after example of why you cannot legally do that. It's been a year or more since I paid any attention to it, so I'll see if I can dig around and find any links to cases/articles.

Point being, if YOU print it, then YOU are responsible for it. Period.

Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense in court.

The law says you can't do it without permission from the owner. If you're using the excuse "well, they said they had permission", then you didn't do YOUR part of it and verify that they were the owner. Who's at fault? You.

I went to a job a while back, the woman there said she wanted a sign to go on the front of their store, on the building. It was in a strip mall. I told her I needed a signed affidavit from the building owner for permission to do it, all of which had to be submitted for a sign permit. About then, the store owner rolls up, she tells him they need permission, he said "I have permission to do whatever I want". I asked him for documentation of that, and he kept telling me that "He had permission to do whatever he wanted".

I walked away from the job because I knew he was lying. Had I installed the sign he wanted into the block building, I could have been sued by the owner of the building and I would have lost. I would have had to repair and repaint the area that my sign installation was in.

[Scott Shepherd]

This is from a site I closed before bookmarking (Dohhh!)....

INFRINGING COPYRIGHT

"In utilizing any of the exclusive rights provided to the copyright holder without his permission, you may be violating or infringing on his rights under he Copyright Act. If the copyright holder has registered the infringed work with the U.S. Copyright Office prior to the infringement, the copyright holder may be entitled to compensation for his loss. Compensation may include damages, such as lost profits from the infringing activity, or statutory damages ranging from $250 to $150,000 for each infringing copy or higher if the court feels that the infringement was committed "willfully."

You may also be criminally liable if you willfully copy a work for profit or financial gain, or if the work has a value of more than $1,000. Penalties can include a one year jail sentence plus fines. If the value is more than $2,500, you may be sentenced to five years in jail plus fines. Criminal penalties generally apply to large-scale commercial piracy."

[Dan Hintz]

Steve,

A few points for clarity:
1) Ignorance of the law is different than ignorance of ownership. In this case, the shop owner is aware (I'm assuming) of the laws against copyright infringement, particularly using copyrighted works. However, the owner may not be aware of the work actually having a copyright.
2) I did suggest in addition to getting the client to sign the "don't hold me responsible" form to also have proof of copyright ownership or permission for use copied and attached to said form.
3) If you have all of the above, the liable party mentioned above would be the person who falsified the documents in an attempt to get you to do the work. You did your due diligence by securing proof... if the proof later turns out to be false, well, you're not out of the woods completely, but it makes it a whoooole lot easier to get the lawyers to go after the client.

[Scott Shepherd]

Dan, I agree, if you have them do all that, you're in the clear. However, there are many print shops and sign shops that play by the rules. The laser engraving business hasn't got into that world too much yet, as we're all massively mislead by the sales force out there doing demo's of Harley logos, taking photos off the internet and engraving them, etc, all implying that it's so easy to do.

However, running a real, legal business wipes out about 90% of what's demo'd. Let's see, you can't do popular logos, you can't do sports stuff, you can't take someone's photograph off the internet and engrave it and sell 1000's of them. You can't, you can't, you can't...... Far from what's sold to us.

Once you get into that world, it becomes fairly clear and most people won't ask you to do things that are against the law. I believe most of the "line crossing" comes from hobbiest, just looking to do something neat or unique for someone. I don't know many full time, store front people running a business that will copy other people's work because they understand the ramifications.

[Martin Boekers]

That may be interesting to check at the next show, if ANY of the laser vendors
have written permision from the owners of the images they are engraving.
Hmmmmmm.

I'm with Steve, that if the client does have rights to use the artwork
they also should have how do they say it "express written permission"
and can show you that document and not just say it on their own (or sign it)

Someday there may be an organization like there is in the music industry
(ASCAP & BMI) random checking to see if you have rights to engrave and display
what images you use.

Heck, I learned something new from a previous thread as this that even
though I purchased a clip art book set for hundreds of dollars that does
not give me the rights to use ANY of the images without
checking with the actual owner and negotiating use fees.

How many of use use clipart everday, how many track down the owners
and pay for use?

If you don't believe me read the intro to the clipart package you have
and see what it says about usage rights.

I have 2 older versions from Corel and it's right in the front sections
that no one ever reads.

If they have written permission from the owner, then they have rights
if not they don't.

Marty

[Dan Hintz]

That may be interesting to check at the next show, if ANY of the laser vendors
have written permision from the owners of the images they are engraving.
Irrelevant. They are not selling the merchandise being engraved, they are using it as an example, something the law allows for...

[Scott Shepherd]

Man, this must be my "Disagree with Dan" Day :)

I do not believe you can legally make or display samples of copyright protected work, whether you plan to sell it or not. They may not be selling it, but they are using it to promote their business, which is illegal.

There are stories out there of HD and Disney going to trade shows and taking names, etc. and putting an end to that from those people.

Just play around on the internet in the graphics forums and you'll hear many first hand stories.

In the case you mention, demo's, under what part of the law would you believe that to be acceptable? Fair use? Don't think so. Fair use doesn't cover using something as a marketing tool to sell your product.

I don't know anyone that's squeaky clean on this, it's a line that most people use their judgement on and that's a risk being taken. Make a wrong decision and you could find your business closed, all your possessions sold and your home lost. To me, no stupid plaque is worth risking my business.

[Lee DeRaud]

Irrelevant. They are not selling the merchandise being engraved, they are using it as an example, something the law allows for...Lack of monetary gain is not a defense for copyright/trademark infringement: just ask the kids busted for sharing MP3s.

[Dan Hintz]

Lack of monetary gain is not a defense for copyright/trademark infringement: just ask the kids busted for sharing MP3s.
The MP3 thing is different... in those cases, the RIAA is making the case that it is resulting in loss of revenue. Showing a coaster with a picture of a Harley will not result in the lost sale of a motorcycle, and even if HD was selling similar coasters it wouldn't lose a sale there, either. At best, HD can make the case for brand dilution, but unless the coaster is displayed in a bad light (figuratively speaking, not physically, though I like the double entendre considering it's a show sample), that's not happening either. Only one or two are made to show off the capabilities of the laser engraving system, not showcasing the logo itself. If everything in your booth uses an HD logo, that's a problem... if it's mixed among Pepsi, Coke, Geico, and Delta logos, it's obvious to the layman you are not pushing a particular brand/item and those are examples only.

Just remember, what is truly illegal and what a company will attempt to sue you for (or bully you into doing) are quite often different things.

[Mike Null]

There are certain companies which take protection of their logo more seriously than others. None more so than HD. Even HD dealers do not have the right to use the logo without written authorization. Whereas Ford dealers may use the logo to promote their business. That's spelled out in their franchise agreement.

In many cases using an example of the HD logo will present no problem but HD still has rights that are enforceable should they chose.

It's far more understandable in HD's instance because of the vast line of clothing, gifts and related items they offer and which is a large part of their business.

If you go to court, as an engraver, ignorance of the law will not fly as an excuse. The court will say that as an engraver it is your responsibility to know the law.

Still, in most instances, a cease and desist order or a letter from the offended company's attorney is predictable. Not massive settlements.

[Martin Boekers]

Irrelevant. They are not selling the merchandise being engraved, they are using it as an example, something the law allows for...

Dan,

If you want you can do this, but it is not irrelevent as you say. The law
does not allow for this at any level. First the most basic end implies
sponsorship when you display an item that is copywrited without
the owners consent for display.

If you check with stock image agencies you'll find there are different levels
of use which are priced accordingly.

I can only imagine how the organization PETA would react if I engraved
their logo on a piece of leather "just for display" !:eek:

Marty

[Lee DeRaud]

I can only imagine how the organization PETA would react if I engraved
their logo on a piece of leather "just for display" !:eek:Just tell them it's human skin: they'll probably give you an award.

[Robert Walters]

I can only imagine how the organization PETA would react if I engraved
their logo on a piece of leather "just for display" !:eek:

Would you like fries with that?

[Robert Walters]

I was reading the US Code on copyright, but makes for difficult reading as there are sections specifically tailored for service providers and the like.

Service providers are exempt from copyright infringement even if their servers contain copyrighted material placed there by their clients as long as they make an effort to rectify the situation when reported.

Words like "willfully" and "PUBLIC" came into play. But what we do is not willfully infringe of someone's copyright, and we provide a private sale, not public distribution.

Unless of course you have a bunch of Mickey Mouse laser tile sitting on your shelf priced at $19.95.


I do feel that there is "some" protection there for providers that make a good faith effort, just can't find it!

Look at places that provide publish-on-demand:



They have hundreds of orders per day that make then more vulnerable to copyright infringement than any of us, and they are still in business.

[Mike Null]

Robert

I suggest you check your links first before posting.

Second, those links do not make a case for using unauthorized logos. Because somebody else does it does not make it legal.

[Robert Walters]

Robert

I suggest you check your links first before posting.

Second, those links do not make a case for using unauthorized logos. Because somebody else does it does not make it legal.



Check the links for what? They were valid.



There never was a question of "unauthorized logos", it's a question of are we protected from copyright infringement as service providers if we do our due diligence and not turn a blind eye as to what artwork comes in the door.

[Scott Shepherd]

it's a question of are we protected from copyright infringement as service providers if we do our due diligence and not turn a blind eye as to what artwork comes in the door.

Simple, you have no protection if you don't have permission of the copyright holder to do it. Make yourself some NASCAR gear and put it out, you'll find out.

It seems crazy, but the logic involved in this area is hard to wrap your head around. Bottom line, if you didn't create it from scratch, you can't produce it without permission. Look at Photographers. They OWN the photos and the rights to ALL photos they take. They take your wedding photos and THEY own YOUR wedding photos. How's that? You paid for them (that's the logic part of it), but you do not own your own wedding photos. You cannot take a wedding photo you bought, copy it, scan it and engrave it, or do anything with it, without the permission of the photographer. They OWN the photos and all things attached to it.

Now you can BUY the rights to all your photos, but expect to pay many times what you paid for the photos to own the rights to them, allowing you to do anything you want.

If someone brings you a photo of someone's baby or wedding or graduation or whatever, and it was professionally done, and they want you to engrave it on wood, glass, granite, marble, or a banana, you cannot legally do it without the permission of the photographer. That's the law, but that's what is at every demo that's used to sell lasers? Baby photos, wedding photos, company logos, etc. It's very misleading to customers.

If you want photos to engrave, you have to buy them. I have some marble engraved as a demo, it's of a tiger. I bought the rights to use it from a stock photography site. I have a demo of a boy and his dog. I bought the rights to use it.

You have to pay to play.

[Robert Walters]

Simple, you have no protection if you don't have permission of the copyright holder to do it. Make yourself some NASCAR gear and put it out, you'll find out.

So, you're telling that if someone from Martinsville Speedway came to you needing 1000 custom awards made up for an upcoming race you are going to decline the job because they are not from Nascar Inc, but from the race track who may (or may not be) an authorized agent of Nascar for the purposes of media materials by contract?

What if [insert your favorite driver here] walked into the shop and asked for something? Are you going to turn him away knowing full well that he is under contract with Nascar?

[Scott Shepherd]

So, you're telling that if someone from Martinsville Speedway came to you needing 1000 custom awards made up for an upcoming race you are going to decline the job because they are not from Nascar Inc, but from the race track who may (or may not be) an authorized agent of Nascar for the purposes of media materials by contract?

What if [insert your favorite driver here] walked into the shop and asked for something? Are you going to turn him away knowing full well that he is under contract with Nascar?

That's an easy answer. If they asked me to do it and it had the NASCAR logo on it, I'd ask them for the paper work. If they didn't have it, I'd tell them I couldn't do it without the written permission to do so, and by doing it, I was opening my company up to a lawsuit that could cost us our business. If they didn't have it, I'd suggest alternative layouts that did not include it.

If a driver walked in and asked for something with NASCAR on it, tough luck. I'm not risking my business for any order. Period.

You're falling right into the trap Robert. You're trying to justify the actions by the demand. It's not about the money, it's about doing what's right. If you can't bring me the paperwork or proof you have the authority, then it's not running across my machines.

If Brett Favre walks in and wants an NFL logo done, I'd welcome him to the store, but he'd leave without an NFL logo. You do what's right, not what's convenient.

[Martin Boekers]

Scott is right on, these guys deal with this on a day to day basis, they know
what paperwork they need to move forward with projects. Now if it was a vendor
they may or may not know what is needed so help them on the way.

Believe me drivers are well aware of what rights they have and don't have.
Most of them I imagine (if they are like MLB) have their own asso.
as well as NASCAR.

I "explored" licensing some MLB photos I took, as well as developing some
products. I got the package from MLB (about 30 pages or so) and was also
informed if it included players I had to aqcuire rights from the players asso. also.

Needless to say my visions of "Granduer" vaporized right before my eyes!:(

NCAA and the NFL are also difficult to get rights to.

I suggest anyone that hasn't ever tried to aquire licensing rights to
ask MLB or the NFL to send you an application packet. I think you
will be a bit taken back by what info they want, escrow accts and
percentage they take from you products.

MLB for example, I had a photo I wanted to license, if they approved
that and I agreed to all the terms great! Now if I changed the photo size
or sold it framed (said it right there in the package) I had to apply
for another license and so forth.

Marty

[Robert Walters]

That's an easy answer. If they asked me to do it and it had the NASCAR logo on it, I'd ask them for the paper work.


Exactly what specific "paperwork" would you require?

[Scott Shepherd]

There was a local shop here that sold NASCAR related stuff. They were licensed to do so. I did some work for them on a fairly frequent basis (I setup and online store for them and helped them get it populated and running). Many years ago, there was a guy that took some photos at a race, he was a professional photographer. He sold 75 or 100 of them, all documented and numbered.

The photos were of two drivers, side by side, in a turn, at the race track here. Both drivers were killed shortly after that. I bought 4 or 5 of the photos and gave a couple of them as gifts, but still had a couple. I have no use for them, but thought someone that was really into it might have some interest. I took the photo to that store and showed them the photo and asked if they had any interest in trying to sell it. They said they would love to, but if NASCAR found 1 single non sanctioned item in their store, they would shut the doors (meaning NASCAR would revoke the license, leaving them with nothing to sell, which would cause them to close).

I deal with it all the time. Here's a tip off for me. If you provide me with Adobe Illustrator format art work, then we're probably okay. If you don't know what Adobe Illustrator format is, then we're probably not okay.

Most all of my clients that have permissions for things, can, and do, also provide me with the proper files. If they can't provide me with the files, then it's an instant red flag and I start asking various questions to determine if they have the authority to do it.

I'd require the written permission from the copyright holder to produce the product being offered.

[Martin Boekers]

Typcally they will have also have a sheet that also lists PMS colors, Fonts and any other thing pertinent to printing.

[Robert Walters]

...Many years ago, there was a guy that took some photos at a race, he was a professional photographer. He sold 75 or 100 of them, all documented and numbered.

The photos were of two drivers, side by side, in a turn, at the race track here.

Here's the funny thing about that...

A photographer cannot photograph a building, structure, etc while on the private property without the owners permission. But, he can step across the street and there is nothing the owner can do.

Now, the race track itself IS private property. But since the intent during a race is a PUBLIC event, it's okey for photographers to take photographs without written permission.

I've spoken to quite a few cops about this private/public property thing, and it all goes to the intended use. Your home is private property, but if you have a yard sale that portion becomes intended public use. It's really screwy.

[Dan Hintz]

After further review of Fair Use law, I'm going to change my opinion to agree with the majority here... straight logos, even when used as visual samples not for sale, are not covered by Fair Use.

Parody that logo for your sample, though, such as taking the Coke logo/font and extending it to say Cocaine will be covered. Selling said samples, as someone tried to do with shirts saying the same, is a definite no-no.