Tool presentation for the inside of a bowl

[Rob Holcomb]

I've been having some issues when either roughing out or finish turning the inside of bowls (8-9 inch diameter) where the wooden end of the gouge hits the ways on my lathe while pivoting the gouge to cut from the rim to the center of the bowl. At the beginning of the rough out, I have no problem but when more emphasis is given to the inside side of the bowl, and the pivot begins, the end of the gouge meets the ways. I'd say my presentation angle would be in the 30-40 degree range when I'm hitting the ways. I'm able to complete things but my angle (maybe 25 degrees max and probably 20 degrees) is less than desired and the comfort level isn't there. For reference, I'm using a 1/2" Benjamin's Best bowl gouge on a Delta 46-460 lathe. Any thoughts?

[Ryan Baker]

This is when it is really useful to have a lathe with either a sliding or a rotating headstock, so that you can move the bowl somewhere where the ways are not in you way.

It IS possible to adjust the tool angles such that you can still make the cut without the handle hitting. You have to figure out how to rotate/reposition the tool so that you can maintain the bevel support with the tool in a flater position. You may want to experiment with the grind on the tool, since changing the bevel angle can make a really big difference in the position of the handle. It's not nearly as nice as being able to put the tool right where it is comfortable to you, but you can learn to get by with some adjustments (and a few extra tools with different grinds helps too).

[Jeff Nicol]

Rob, When I was first starting out I had that issue once in a while until I figured out what part of the gouge to use at each portion of the cut. If you are ending up with the handle down that low either the grind is not correct (Convex rather than a concave grind) meaning if you do not sharpen the whole face of the grind and end up with facets in the grind there could be a high spot in the middle that is keeping you from making the cut cleanly and in one continuous motion. If the grind is a swept back grind when you get to the bottom the tool handle should be almost perpendicular with the tool rest and turned so that the smallest part of the curve of the grind is doing the cutting. Also depending on how deep the bowl is a secondary grind will help make that bottom cut or use a bowl gouge that has a standard grind on it. Maybe you can get someone to take some pictures or you can so we can see how you are doing things.

Hope this helps,

Jeff

[Prashun Patel]

I'm a newbie, so take this with a grain of salt ( by coincidence, I'm learning on the same lathe and with the same bowl gouge as you).

I started out making my bowls inadvertently deep. When I switched to shallower sweeps (think 'plates'), it helped me learn the presentation better, which gave be confidence to work at deeper bowls.

I also did much better by sweeping the wings of the gouge back.

You really don't have to hold the gouge at such a steep 'vertical' angle. It's more effective for me to tweak the roll and the lateral angle.

Once you get the feel, you'll find there are many ways to present the gouge. Sorry if that doesn't help. Just keep practicing; if I can have an a-ha moment, you can too.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I use a bowl scraper from BB. I know that does not answer your question, but, if you have only 1 bowl gouge, I would not change the angles too much to figure out what works best in all situations. I'd get a good grind that works well in most situations, and use the scraper for that one part of the bowl. As you noticed, a good grind for one part of the bowl is not a good grind for somewhere else. If you can afford to buy another gouge and grind it to work just in that one area, that's what I would do too.

Just my $0.02.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Jeff N. hit the nail on the head. I have never hit the way on my lathe. My gouge is almost perpendicular to the ways. If you have a woodcraft or turning club near you that would help otherwise I would get a DVD like Bill Grumbines "Turned Bowls Made Easy." It is extremely helpful.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rob.....beg, borrow, steal or buy the DVD Bernie recommended. Bill Grumbine's "Turned Bowls Made Easy".

My bowl gouge is always nearly horizontal whether I cutting from the outside in.....or using shear cut from the inside out.......

With my Sorby EHD bowl scraper...I may be going either way.

On the DVD Bill will show you with a bowl gouge how to start the cut at the lip of the rim and then you can literally cut to the center of the inside of the bowl with one hand.....He demonstrates it...he doesn't recommend you attempt it...I did....his methods work.

It's the same mantra as using a skew....RIDE THE BEVEL....repeat RIDE THE BEVEL. The hard part and he makes it easy is getting it started....then ....you guessed it "RIDE THE BEVEL".

[Reed Gray]

I also hold the gouge level. Just feels better in my hands. I do have several gouges with different bevel angles. Sweeping the wings back doesn't do as much for me as the different bevel angles. Steeper angle lets you get into the inside of deeper bowls, and make the transition from the side and go across the bottom. Rounding over the heel of your gouge also helps. It gets the bevel rubbing point closer to the cutting edge, which makes control easier. Your hand on the handle does all the work, the hand on the gouge/tool rest is just there for support, and to keep you from pushing through the center of the bowl to where the wood is moving up (gouge goes up, back around towards you very quickly, and slams onto the tool rest: big tool mark, dinged or broken tool rest, and hurt fingers if they are in the way).

robo hippy

[Don Geiger]

If you use a bowl gouge with a side-grind (ie; Ellsworth, Irish Grind etc.) you can hold the tool handle/shaft absolutely level and the flute facing 45 degrees away from you and traverse the tool using level strokes.

You can use a side-ground bowl gouge for at least five specific operations when turning open bowls. It has a great deal of utility.

Let me know if any of you want to know more about the side-ground bowl gouge. I use it for over 90% of my turning.


Don Geiger

[Michelle Rich]

this is the reason Packard Woodworks makes a smaller gouge for mini lathes. shorter handle, etc.

[Rob Holcomb]

I do have the Grumbine videos. For whatever reason, I was trying to do a 45/45/45 tool presentation like is portrayed in the videos. I don't really understand the different types of grinds so I'm a little lost when you mention them. Is there a web page somewhere that shows the different grinds and pictures that illustrate them?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rob,

If you view the end of you bowl gouge horizontal and from the side, he's talking about the angle of the end of the gouge.

If you were to grind it straight up an down, so a line drawn the length of the flue and a line drawn on the bevel...they would be perpendicular to each other.

When you use a gouge it's important to ride the bevel.

The closer to 90º the bevel is, the easier it is to cut the flatter portions of inner part of the bowl because your handle will remain nearly horizontal while you are riding that bevel and allowing the cutting edge to do it's work.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Rob,
Western NY can't be too many hours from Bills home in Kutztown, PA. Make a trip and spend a day with Bill in person. The travel time is nothing compared to the useful sharpening and turning techniques he will share with you.
fmr

[Rob Holcomb]

Faust, you have no idea how much I'd like to get a one on one lesson from Mr. Grumbine but it's not that simple. Kutztown is about a 6 hour ride and although that isn't all that far... work, wife, a teenage son and other obligations prevent me from doing that. Maybe in the future sometime, when things are a little less hectic in my life I'll be able to take that kind of trip but for now, it's not in the cards. I'm fortunate that I get 5-6 hours a week in the shop as it is. I still do flat work too when I get a request to make something for someone and I have a few projects for the upcoming winter months to do for my wife so time in my shop isn't all spent at the Lathe. I plan on retiring in about 6 years and that seems a long time from now but it will go by fast. Even though I'm not trying to wish my life away, I am looking forward to waking up, having a cup of coffee and then head out into the shop for the day on a regular basis. For those of you that are already retired, I'm envious!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rob,

If you are like me you will get scared when the time comes.

Though I have been eligible to retire for some time now, I was scheduled to retire 12/2011.

In July I lost all the hearing in my left ear and have only extremely limited hearing while wearing a hearing aid on my right ear.

Now, it looks like I will be retiring very soon, and the thought of having a reduced income and little potential to improve it should I desire, scares me to death.

I have supported myself since I was age 15 and began working on oil rigs for my father and paying room and board to my parents. While I look forward to days in the shop, it is, indeed, frightening to stare retirement in the face.:o

[Jake Helmboldt]

I do have the Grumbine videos. For whatever reason, I was trying to do a 45/45/45 tool presentation like is portrayed in the videos. I don't really understand the different types of grinds so I'm a little lost when you mention them. Is there a web page somewhere that shows the different grinds and pictures that illustrate them?

Rob, the 45/45/45 is for the roughing pull cuts on the outside of the bowl.
On the inside do as others have said and keep the gouge horizontal. I forget what Grumbine shows on his video, but here is a youtube video from Jet. Pay attention to the flute position to understand what is happening. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERog06dvWew