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Don Gares
10-17-2010, 9:53 PM
Hi, I haven't been here in sometime but I am glad to see that it is still the busy place it was before.

Anyway, I have a Pinnacle 40 watt machine and I use the rotary attachment probably 90 percent of the time (mugs & wine glasses). I bought this system used over two years and never a problem of any kind until yesterday which is much better than I ever expected. Well, now the rotary attachment just goes nuts. It spins one way or the other as soon as I turn the machine on, no rhyme or reason to it. I really don't know if the rotary attachment itself has went bad or the signal to it is screwed up. I suspect that it is the rotary attachment as the machine works fine without it.

If anyone could give me a clue as to what may be wrong it would be great. Finally, if all else fails who would I call for help? I am in SE Iowa which is somewhat out in the middle of nowhere.

Your comments, suggestions, advice, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Don

AL Ursich
10-17-2010, 11:25 PM
Sounds to me like a loose plug..... Or a wire in the plug is loose not making contact.... Depending if it is a stepper or servo motor... Sounds like a Servo Motor missing a input wire.....

I would shut down the machine, Shut Down the Computer and Reboot....

Check the plug and cable..... Did you pinch a wire to the metal table.... ?

Check your data cable....

Did you forget to set the size of the table?

Just some things before the guys that really know the answer at 11PM on a Sunday Night while I am still working in the Shop.....

Used my Sears little CNC to cut 120 FRP tags for Sublimation for tomorrow... :D

Good Luck,

AL

Adam Orton
10-18-2010, 1:15 AM
I just repaired my rotary unit. It didn't run on it's own but the etchings were all wonky. After a deep inspection it was, you guessed it, a loose wire in the molex connector. Qik solder job and everything worked perfectly.

Robert Walters
10-18-2010, 2:30 AM
with the rotary unit unplugged from the laser...

If you turn the spindle/motor by hand, do you feel "indents" or it it smooth?

If you feel indents, it's probably a stepper motor and you probably want to call Tech Support.

If it's smooth, it might be a server motor.

If it is a servo, since it does spin when powered on it sound like the encoder isn't giving it feedback and it's trying to find it's position by turning one way or the other.

Like others have said, check for loose wiring.
Make sure you have it securely connected.

If you have moved/drop/bumped the unit, check for damage or loose connector near the motor as well (that's where the encoder typically is).

Chuck Stone
10-18-2010, 7:59 AM
There's a slit disc on the motor inside the box. That disc rides inside an
optical sensor, so when the slit passes by, the machine senses the position.

if that sensor gets fouled with dust, it can lose track of where the disc is,
and this can cause problems, if it even finishes initializing.

Some canned air or a dry Q-tip should help if it is a dirty sensor. and you'd
obviously check plugs/wires while you're there. If you have an IR detector
you can see if the emitter side is lighting up or not. Radio Shack used to
have them for about $10, but I think they're getting rid of everything but
batteries and cell phones lately. An electronics shop should have them,
though.

The sensor is a black "U" shaped plastic piece, maybe 3/4" long. The black
slit disc rides inside it, so it should be easy to spot.

Not saying that's the problem, just a common occurrence with those types
of sensors. They don't go bad so much as just collect dust.

Niklas Bjornestal
10-18-2010, 12:13 PM
If you have an IR detector
you can see if the emitter side is lighting up or not. Radio Shack used to
have them for about $10, but I think they're getting rid of everything but
batteries and cell phones lately.
You can use a digital camera (or cellphone) to check the IR diod is working. (at least its working with ordinary remotes for TV)

Robert Walters
10-18-2010, 12:59 PM
Since Chuck mentioned what type of encoder is being used, here's a pic of an optical interrupterhttp://www.ictradenet.com/models_pic/H21A1,H21A2,H21A3,H21B1.jpg

And you can use any video camera, webcam, cellphone cam to see the IR light as Niklas mentioned.

Don Gares
10-18-2010, 1:15 PM
You can use a digital camera (or cellphone) to check the IR diod is working. (at least its working with ordinary remotes for TV)

Thanks for all the suggestions but the first thing that I did when the problem started was to open up the rotary attachment and blow it out with canned air....no joy.

To recap, the rotary attachment starts turning the instant that the machine is turned on. Once the machine is initialized it finds the slot (home) but then it starts turning again. Sometimes it turns fast and smooth while other times it turns slow and jerky. Also, one time it might turn in one direction and the next the other direction. It is like the small motor is getting a signal when it should not be or if there is a small electric clutch maybe it is kicking in when it shouldn't be. You can actually grab the rotary attachment and stop it from turning with very little force but it starts again as soon as you turn loose. I have checked all the connections, including on the mainboard, and all appears well.

Where would I find a repair person or company? I have never had the machine worked on and as I previously stated it was purchased used from an individual.

BTW - how do I use a digital camera or cell phone to check the IR?

Don

AL Ursich
10-18-2010, 1:52 PM
A Cell Phone Camera or a Digital Camera can SEE IR Light.... and display it on the LCD Screen as visible light.

Here is a encoder on the back of a Servo Motor used to drive the CarveWright. See the light passing through the disk and letting the lines cause a shadow.

If the unit is a Servo then it will need to find home position by bumping into something... normally....

AL:eek:

Robert Walters
10-18-2010, 1:53 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions but the first thing that I did when the problem started was to open up the rotary attachment and blow it out with canned air....no joy.

To recap, the rotary attachment starts turning the instant that the machine is turned on. Once the machine is initialized it finds the slot (home) but then it starts turning again. Sometimes it turns fast and smooth while other times it turns slow and jerky. Also, one time it might turn in one direction and the next the other direction. It is like the small motor is getting a signal when it should not be or if there is a small electric clutch maybe it is kicking in when it shouldn't be. You can actually grab the rotary attachment and stop it from turning with very little force but it starts again as soon as you turn loose. I have checked all the connections, including on the mainboard, and all appears well.

Where would I find a repair person or company? I have never had the machine worked on and as I previously stated it was purchased used from an individual.

BTW - how do I use a digital camera or cell phone to check the IR?

Don

Ok, the motor should have dual shafts (one on each end).

On the end closest the the encoder there is a round "disc".

With the rotary unit unplugged...
If you turn the motor by hand, does the disc turn too, or is it sorta free spinning on the shaft?

The disc set screw (if any) could be loose.


Just use the digital camera like sunglasses to view an solar eclipse.
Digital cameras are sensitive to IR light, our eyes are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx03lJdGtqc

Chuck Stone
10-18-2010, 2:22 PM
I never knew about using the camera as an IR detector! Good tip.

I wonder if the belt or set screws are loose? I think the rotary attachment
will keep trying to find home. Sometimes mine starts moving as soon as I
turn it on, other times not. I think it depends on whether or not I turn off
the power in the middle of a run.

Don Gares
10-18-2010, 3:10 PM
Ok, the motor should have dual shafts (one on each end).

On the end closest the the encoder there is a round "disc".

With the rotary unit unplugged...
If you turn the motor by hand, does the disc turn too, or is it sorta free spinning on the shaft?

The disc set screw (if any) could be loose.


Just use the digital camera like sunglasses to view an solar eclipse.
Digital cameras are sensitive to IR light, our eyes are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx03lJdGtqc

Unfortunately, all is tight and the motor, belt, disc, and everything else turn together. I did look at it through one of my digital cameras and did not see the IR light but I may just have missed it. Actually, I really don't think that the IR is the problem because it starts turning immediately after the machine it turned on and when it works correctly I am almost sure that it does not do that.

If time permits, tonight I will take a short video of what is happening and upload it to one of my domains and then post a link to it.

Don

Chuck Stone
10-18-2010, 4:17 PM
Actually, I really don't think that the IR is the problem because it starts turning immediately after the machine it turned on and when it works correctly I am almost sure that it does not do that.

I'm not 100% sure, and I can't find a thing in the (all but useless) manual,
but if you're NOT seeing the IR, that could indicate a problem.

AFAIK, the IR should be on all the time. The machine senses whether it
is blocked or not. If it is blocked (ie. the detector does not see the IR)
then the machine assumes that the slit is not in the sensor yet, and
it may keep driving the motor until it DOES see the IR. (which would indicate
to the machine that it has reached Home Position) If it never senses Home,
it may keep on going.

Again, I'm not certain that this is how the logic is working, but I spent
20 years doing tech support on other machines that used similar setups
and this is how they worked. So it wouldn't surprise me if this is the same.

WHen you turn the machine on, chances are that the slit disc is already
in the home position, so there's no need for the motor to move. But if you
open up the box and move the disc, then the next time it powers up, the
motor WOULD move until it reached Home again. That might be why you
are seeing something different.

Again, not certain .. just an edumacated guess..

Don Gares
10-18-2010, 6:05 PM
I'm not 100% sure, and I can't find a thing in the (all but useless) manual,
but if you're NOT seeing the IR, that could indicate a problem. (snipped)



As I mentioned in a previous post it does find the slot in the disk (home), stops turning for just an instant and then starts turning again so the IR light must be on. I think that I am not seeing it because the slot is quite narrow between the transmitter and sensor. Just to make sure I put a small piece of black electrical tape over the slot in the disk and tried it. Sure enough, it did not find home and hesitate as it did without the tape. All in all, the IR light has to be on.

Video to come later tonight if all goes well.

Don

Chuck Stone
10-18-2010, 7:43 PM
As I mentioned in a previous post it does find the slot in the disk

Oops.. I must have missed that! Sorry..

Don Gares
10-18-2010, 7:59 PM
Okay, I uploaded a video of the non-working rotary attachment to one of my domains. If you just click on www.dongares.com/rotary_mpeg4.avi (http://www.dongares.com/rotary_mpeg4.avi) it should download and then play. If you have an average DSL or cable connection the download will probably take about two minutes. If you happen to be on "dial up" don't even try it.:)

Don

Robert Walters
10-18-2010, 8:48 PM
Okay, I uploaded a video of the non-working rotary attachment to one of my domains. If you just click on www.dongares.com/rotary_mpeg4.avi (http://www.dongares.com/rotary_mpeg4.avi) it should download and then play. If you have an average DSL or cable connection the download will probably take about two minutes. If you happen to be on "dial up" don't even try it.:)

Don

Ok, you have multiple issues in the video...

1) The erratic speed looks to be a mechanical thing.
I see a set screw on the gear that connects to the motor shaft.
I'd see if that can be pulled off, it looks loose. Re-tighten as necessary.

2) I see a few belts in there, they might need to be replaced or adjusted as needed.

3) You have BOTH an encoder and the large disc with an interrupter (which might be for homing purposes).
Ignore the interrupter for now and check the connections to the encoder on the rear of the motor. It's that upside down 'U' thing about 3/8" thick, (well under that cover that is).

Chuck Stone
10-18-2010, 11:51 PM
I'm thinking the other way .. I'm half blind, so I didn't see an encoder anywhere.
But the rubber disc and drive wheel seem to be tight with the motor, so I'm
thinking there's a problem with the signal getting sent to the unit. Could
be pinched wires, something crossing pins on a connector or a fried chip
somewhere.. but nothing about that looks like any normal operation.

Have you had a board replaced lately? Any chance the JP5 plug has
come loose or isn't seated right?

Don Gares
10-20-2010, 4:29 PM
I'm thinking the other way .. I'm half blind, so I didn't see an encoder anywhere.
But the rubber disc and drive wheel seem to be tight with the motor, so I'm
thinking there's a problem with the signal getting sent to the unit. Could
be pinched wires, something crossing pins on a connector or a fried chip
somewhere.. but nothing about that looks like any normal operation.

Have you had a board replaced lately? Any chance the JP5 plug has
come loose or isn't seated right?

No offense Robert but I think that I have to agree with Chuck. All the set screws are tight and all the components in the unit are moving together, no slippage anywhere that I can feel or see.

I have unplugged and replugged all of the lines to, and within, the rotary attachment with no joy. I certainly wish that I had another rotary attachment to try on the machine. This test would tell me whether or was the attachment or a signal coming to it. Of course I don't have another rotary attachment nor do I have any clue as where to borrow one. I have never replaced the main board so it could be that but the balance of the machine works fine so at least part of the main board is working fine.

All in all, I need a tech person and I don't know where to get one. Your suggestions on locating one would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Don

Chuck Stone
10-20-2010, 6:56 PM
I wish I knew where to find a tech .. , I'd even settle for GCC returning
a phone call or answering email!

If I were standing at the machine, I'd probably disconnect the power and
pull that JP5 plug and put it back a few times just in case there's any sort
of buildup on the contacts. Same with the plugs inside the unit itself.
I'd look closely at the serial plug to the rotary attachment.. see if there's a
bent over pin, missing pin etc. and give the whole thing a good cleaning
while I was there. (I'm sure it doesn't get opened up very often)

After that I'd probably re-load the software and see if that makes any
change. Do you have the loader program?

I really wish they'd make available some manuals that actually say something
more than "If experience this problem, find out why"

Just wondering .. the rotary wasn't plugged in or unplugged while the
machine was running, was it? I know the machine REALLY doesn't
like that

Don Gares
10-24-2010, 11:02 PM
I wish I knew where to find a tech .. , I'd even settle for GCC returning
a phone call or answering email!

If I were standing at the machine, I'd probably disconnect the power and
pull that JP5 plug and put it back a few times just in case there's any sort
of buildup on the contacts. Same with the plugs inside the unit itself.
I'd look closely at the serial plug to the rotary attachment.. see if there's a
bent over pin, missing pin etc. and give the whole thing a good cleaning
while I was there. (I'm sure it doesn't get opened up very often)

After that I'd probably re-load the software and see if that makes any
change. Do you have the loader program?

I really wish they'd make available some manuals that actually say something
more than "If experience this problem, find out why"

Just wondering .. the rotary wasn't plugged in or unplugged while the
machine was running, was it? I know the machine REALLY doesn't
like that

Although I have inspected the pins on the connections I really did not expect to find a problem because the unit worked fine one day and not the next without ever being disconnected. And no, I have not connected it with the machine turned on.

There is no software for the laser that I can remember. Well, come to think of it, I guess that there must be a printer driver. Anyway, the problem exists no matter if the computer is turned on or not so it is probably not the driver.

I would think that there must be a tech person that travels around the county somewhere. In fact, I somewhat expected one to be on this forum but no joy. Guess that I simply need to find someone in this area that has similar equipment and see what they do for tech support.

Thanks again,

Don

Robert Walters
10-25-2010, 9:04 AM
Have you physically removed and inspect *ALL* of the belts?


If you can...

Try taking another video using a tripod and post with a higher resolution (I have LOTS of bandwidth, so don't worry about the size).

Each time you move the camera, stay in each position for a longer period of time (10-20 seconds per camera movement, zooming, etc). Also try to both zoom in on areas, as well as zoom out to give perspective.

Here is the encoder. The back cover *should* be removable and there will be a disc inside attached to the shaft of the motor. The other round thing looks like it checks for shaft differential since it's belt driven.

http://i52.tinypic.com/v2zqyv.jpg

Don Gares
10-25-2010, 9:52 AM
Have you physically removed and inspect *ALL* of the belts?


If you can...

Try taking another video using a tripod and post with a higher resolution (I have LOTS of bandwidth, so don't worry about the size).

Each time you move the camera, stay in each position for a longer period of time (10-20 seconds per camera movement, zooming, etc). Also try to both zoom in on areas, as well as zoom out to give perspective.

Here is the encoder. The back cover *should* be removable and there will be a disc inside attached to the shaft of the motor. The other round thing looks like it checks for shaft differential since it's belt driven.

http://i52.tinypic.com/v2zqyv.jpg

I will do what you suggested but first tell me how you make a still image fully show in the tread rather than show as a thumbnail?

Don

Chuck Stone
10-25-2010, 9:57 AM
Here's a firmware uploader .. pretty easy to use. There's one version of
the firmware in the zip file, but you can substitute your own version.
Run the upgrader, select the firmware file and then link to your COM port
or LPT port, whichever one your laser is on.

Start the laser while holding the Start and Pause buttons (I think!.. check
your manual) and then start the upgrader. It will resend the data to the
board.

Robert Walters
10-25-2010, 5:31 PM
I will do what you suggested but first tell me how you make a still image fully show in the tread rather than show as a thumbnail?

Don

Click on INSERT IMAGE in the thread editor (the yellow icon).

Don Gares
10-25-2010, 8:31 PM
Have you physically removed and inspect *ALL* of the belts?


If you can...

Try taking another video using a tripod and post with a higher resolution (I have LOTS of bandwidth, so don't worry about the size).

Each time you move the camera, stay in each position for a longer period of time (10-20 seconds per camera movement, zooming, etc). Also try to both zoom in on areas, as well as zoom out to give perspective.

Here is the encoder. The back cover *should* be removable and there will be a disc inside attached to the shaft of the motor. The other round thing looks like it checks for shaft differential since it's belt driven.



Okay Robert, I took another video and I almost thought it has fixed itself at first but no luck. I think that you can see that there is no slippage of the belts or the gears on the shaft. Also the disk in the encoder is tight and moves with the shaft. All in all, it simply appears that the motor is getting a signal that it should not be. You should notice that when I do an auto focus it starts turning which it should not do. I really don't think that the problem is in the rotary attachment but I would gladly ship it to someone that had a similar machine for them to try. If it worked on their machine then I would be sure that the problem was in my laser.

Anyway, you will find the video at www.dongares.com/mvi_2002_mpeg4.avi (http://www.dongares.com/rotary_mpeg4.avi)

Enjoy,

Don

Robert Walters
10-25-2010, 9:07 PM
Okay Robert, I took another video and I almost thought it has fixed itself at first but no luck. I think that you can see that there is no slippage of the belts or the gears on the shaft. Also the disk in the encoder is tight and moves with the shaft. All in all, it simply appears that the motor is getting a signal that it should not be. You should notice that when I do an auto focus it starts turning which it should not do. I really don't think that the problem is in the rotary attachment but I would gladly ship it to someone that had a similar machine for them to try. If it worked on their machine then I would be sure that the problem was in my laser.

Anyway, you will find the video at www.dongares.com/mvi_2002_mpeg4.avi (http://www.dongares.com/rotary_mpeg4.avi)

Enjoy,

Don




Have you removed all the belts and inspected them?














I was hoping you would move the camera around a bit so one could see the encoder moving as well as the position sensor moving, but eh.

Check for loose wires, including inside connectors.
Reseat connectors as well.

Also bump/thump/tap the machine, the fixture, etc. see if the problem is consistent or alters as you thump things.

You may have to trace the wiring harness back to it's circuit board.

Look for flat (instead of round) wires - like if they were smashed.


If none of that effects anything, with power off, I might unplug things and see if things change as an attempt to isolate where the problem.

Obviously I'm only going by a video, so I don't know what the electrical aspects of it are, but I'd suspect that if the encoder was unplugged the motor would start spinning consistently or not spin at all. All depends on how it was designed. If it doesn't, then I'd trace back and inspect the wires from the motor to it's circuit board in the machine.

Don Gares
10-26-2010, 12:16 AM
Have you removed all the belts and inspected them?

I was hoping you would move the camera around a bit so one could see the encoder moving as well as the position sensor moving, but eh.

Check for loose wires, including inside connectors.
Reseat connectors as well.

Also bump/thump/tap the machine, the fixture, etc.(snipped)

Robert, you are a genius!

Once again I took the end panel off that covers the main board. With the machine running I unplugged and replugged the cable to the rotary attachment for the umpteen time and nothing changed. I then bumped, thumped, and tapped the main board and the rotary attachment stopped turning. I turned the machine on and off several times and all appeared as new. With limited confidence I put everything back together and engraved three wine glasses with absolutely no problems. On top of working again it no longer makes the horrible noise (you probably heard it in the video) when it is looking for the home position. It has made that noise since day one but no longer!

Thanks again for the high tech advice.:)

Don

Robert Walters
10-26-2010, 3:58 AM
With the machine running I unplugged and replugged the cable to the rotary attachment for the umpteen time and nothing changed.

I'm glad you got it going! :D

BUT...

Plugging/unplugging a rotary attachment while the machine is on is a very bad thing. :(

Had this been a stepper motor and was energized, you would have blown the motor driver board. Thus why I mentioned "... with power off..." :)

I was going to wait till you got the rotary attachment issue resolved, then mention the limit/homing switch.

Be sure to check *ALL* wiring and cables in the system. If two somewhat major things were faulty, who know what else is too, including the laser.

Personally, I'd shut down operations for a day, do a complete PM (Preventive Maintenance) on the system. Clean, lube, rotate the tires, check belts, bearings, loose screws, alignments, etc.

Don Gares
10-26-2010, 9:49 AM
I'm glad you got it going! :D

BUT...

Plugging/unplugging a rotary attachment while the machine is on is a very bad thing. :(

Had this been a stepper motor and was energized, you would have blown the motor driver board. Thus why I mentioned "... with power off..." :)

I was going to wait till you got the rotary attachment issue resolved, then mention the limit/homing switch.

Be sure to check *ALL* wiring and cables in the system. If two somewhat major things were faulty, who know what else is too, including the laser.

Personally, I'd shut down operations for a day, do a complete PM (Preventive Maintenance) on the system. Clean, lube, rotate the tires, check belts, bearings, loose screws, alignments, etc.

I just may try a bit of PM as I have never did any in the two years that I have owned it. Shutting down for a day is not a problem as I probably only use it once or twice a month. I realize that connecting and disconnecting things with the power on is a "no no" but we own a computer business and I have did it many times without any problems (knock on wood). This situation simply came down to trying it that way to observe any possible changes. It would not have been the end of the world if I had blown something.

BTW - there is one just like it on e-bay but it is only 12 watt.

Thanks again,

Don (now to fix the tach on my boat)