My "new" PM66. It has issues....

[ken carroll]

Even though I have a perfectly good Grizzly Cabinet saw which I've owned from new for almost 20 years, I couldn't resist the lure of an old beat up PM66 off Craigslist.
A decent deal, but after figuring out some of its issues not the greatest.
Still, there are very few "great" deals in the SF Bay Area!
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164633&stc=1&d=1287342839

It's obviously an ex industrial machine as it is three phase with a 5HP Baldor motor, and four holes in the extension wing I assume for a power feeder.

Good things?

The bearings seem good, and it's a PM66. I got a newish Anderson Converters 7 1/2hp rotary phase converter with it for my money.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164635&stc=1&d=1287342860

The bad......

The fence: Both faces need replacing, and the rail has been cranked down on so much that it's developed a hollow making it difficult to clamp down enough. Good news here is that the seller included a piece of 3x2 1/4" wall steel tubing as a replacement already cut to length.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164630&stc=1&d=1287342804



Are replacement faces available?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164631&stc=1&d=1287342814
The wall thickness of the original tubing is very thin. Is this a standard problem with Biesemeyer fences?

The four holes in the table bug me - I'm tempted to thread them and plug them with bolts cut off to length, but making that invisible without sanding the table extension would be difficult, and sanding the top sounds like a bad idea for flatness reasons.

When demonstrated by the seller the 5HP motor ran like about a 1HP motor. Certainly my 3hp Griz is way stronger.
I had hoped that maybe the motor had been wired for 440v, but on checking it is wired in the "low voltage" configuration. The seller said he had had the motor checked out and it was ok.
Unlikely that it's the converter, so my last hope is that his shop wiring was inadequate.
I'm going to put a plug on the converter and try it out in my shop which I wired with 4ga wire from the main panel so is pretty good.

Any general ideas on what to look for to solve the weak motor issue?

The arbor pulley has three grooves, the motor pulley has two and two belts are used. When did PM change from 3belts to two? Hmmm, maybe loose or inadequate belts is the motor issue?

Also, the three groove pulley had a chunk out of it. I was thinking of chucking it up in my lathe and turning off the rest of the flange to give better balance.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164629&stc=1&d=1287342793

The friction knob for the angle handwheel was missing. Ordered one off ebay for $12. Only issue is that the replacement knob is steel, the original is plastic.

The dado insert, splitter/guard are missing. I was thinking of buying a couple of aftermarket inserts rather than OEM Powermatic - any advice on good bang for the buck table inserts?

I'll need a new stick on scale for my replacement front fence - again, any advice on a good bang for the buck scale?

The motor cover was a plastic piece. Unfortunately, it's a cracked plastic piece. Is it worth repairing this on the inside with fiberglass matting? I could just bend up a new one on my finger brake out of 19ga sheetmetal.
Thin plastic on a PM66 seems odd.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164634&stc=1&d=128734285

At this point it's 50/50 whether I keep the PM or not. My wife said "Your old one (the Griz) is so much nicer than the new one". At this point I'd have to agree, but if I can get the power issue resolved and fix it up a bit I may still feel like putting the Griz on Craigslist.


Thanks in advance for any advice.
Ken.

[Dave Cav]

First, congratulations on the purchase of the 66. If you can take the time (and spend the money) I think you will eventually have a very nice saw. I am in the final stages of rebuilding a mid '60s PM 65, the younger brother to the 66, and I have pretty much decided it will replace my recently restored '46 Unisaw; it's much smoother and more powerful and it only has a 2 HP, 3 phase motor on it. (And the Unisaw replaced a perfectly good Grizzly cabinet saw...)

Two belts are plenty if you are looking to save a little money; if you have a lathe, then it would probably be OK to turn off the broken pulley flange.

If you are having power issues, the first thing I would check would be the RPC to make sure it's putting power out on all 3 legs. Also check your incoming power; I suspect you are going to need at least a 50 or 60 amp, two pole breaker to feed it. I have never used an RPC, although a lot of people swear by them. All of my 3 phase machines are run via VFDs, although a 5 HP VFD is going to be pretty expensive. (As a side note, I am running a 5 HP 12" Delta table saw using a 3 HP VFD with no problems.) As far as I'm concerned, 5 HP is way overkill for a 10" saw. I feel that 2 to 3 HP is just about right, but YMMV.

That replacement rail looks very heavy. It would probably be at home building a bridge. If the original face of the Bies rail is dished in, why not turn it over and drill new holes and use the other face? Also, the cut up faces of the fence can be replaced by just about anything; 1/2" baltic birch would work pretty well. I have 3/4 alder on the faces of my fences. If you want to keep it stock, Delta probably sells new replacement faces but home made will be a lot cheaper and work just as well.

[Don Jarvie]

Don't get too down you just need to do a little work.

Myself I'd sell the 3ph motor and the RPC and put the money toward a 1ph 3hp motor.

I run 2 belts on my Walker Turner with a 3hp motor since the motor pully only has 2 flanges. I've had no problems.

As for the fence, take the money from the Grizzly sale and get a new fence.

A little elbow grease and your good to go.

[Neal Clayton]

my 1989 PM 66 has 3 belts. was told by the PM parts department they changed 'shortly' after that, so i'm guessing early 90s.

you could buy new faces if you want the pretty ones but they're just rounded/laminated MDF. round off the corners of some plywood and sand it smooth and you have the same thing. the faces are meant to be sacrificial on that fence.

[Paul Murphy]

I have a pm66 that replaced a delta saw, and the one thing I can say that the pm66 has over some other 10" saws is mass. It has lots of cast iron, and so it runs very smoothly. Mine is 3hp, and it's plenty for me. Something is wrong if 5hp seems weak to you. I think your advice is good to check for all 3 phases.

I myself wouldn't worry about the 4 holes in the top...they might just come in handy if you buy a powerfeeder!

Like everyone is saying, clean it up one thing at a time, and you'll have another nice saw. I would use laminate on baltic birch for the fence, or get some scrap Corian countertop cutoffs, or even some quartersawn maple. Scrounge around and you'll fix it up without spending much money. I might try fiberglass and paint on the motor cover, or I've seen some beautiful frame-and-panel enclosures made by posters here on the board.

That said, if you don't feel like rehabbing equipment just put it up for sale!

[ken carroll]

Thanks for the advice everybody!

A couple more pieces of info. From the serial number the saw is a 91 vintage.
Turns out that the motor has a three groove pulley as well but there is no way that all three on both pulleys can be made to line up.
Strange.

Anyway, I turned off the broken part of the pulley so what little imbalance it might have created is now no more. Probably insignificant but it wasn't too much effort to do it.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164679&stc=1&d=1287373000


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164678&stc=1&d=1287372997


When PM went from three belts to two belts I assumed it was because the two belts were something a bit more special than a couple of 4L V belts. Is that not so? Seems like going from 3 4L belts to 2 4L does nothing but reduce the ability to transfer power for the savings of about $5 in parts.

Particularly if the two pulleys are still 3 groove pulleys.......

[Rick Potter]

doesn't look like a three belt pully to me

RP

[Neal Clayton]

the lock knob on the angle wheel is a common failure. even if it's there it often breaks (mine doesn't work).

doesn't really matter, the lock is unnecessary. the gears/trunnion are way too heavy to move on their own even while cutting.

[ken carroll]

Rick,
It doesn't because I turned off the broken outer flange on my lathe. Look at the first set of pictures and you'll see it's a three.

Neal,
I agree, but I can't help being anal about wanting every part to be there. A cross I have to bear! (bare?) If it had been expensive I may not have bothered, but for $12 it seemed worth it.

Paul,
Right, the cost sensitive thing to do would be to use BB (which the original seems to be) or maybe UHMW? think I'll price out a couple of strips of uhmw.
On the motor cover, my Grizzly has a nice steel sheet metal cover, not cheap plastic so I think I'll make one up in 19ga (I have several sheets of 19ga CRS available).
No point having a 52" foot shear and a 48" finger brake if you don't use them once in a while!

Dave,
I wired in 4 30amp 220v outlets in my workshop. Only two breakers though.
The RPC claims 30amp input so, although marginal I should be fine. I assume that's 30amp when driving a 7-1/2hp load. The Baldor claims to be something like 12 or 13 amps from memory, so again I don't think I'd need to upgrade my power.
When I ran power to the w/s I used 4ga wire from a 70amp breaker in the main panel.
I agree with you on the rail. Think I'm going to keep it for a bead roller frame project in the future. I may buy some 1/8" wall 3x2 to use for the rail though. In the short term your idea of turning it around is a good one.

Anyone have advice about good bang for the buck table inserts??

[keith micinski]

Just out of curiosity what are the perceived benefits of this worn out beaten up and sounds like slightly abused PM66 over the Grizzly? Other then getting to spend alot of money and do a lot of work to restore it that is. And I hope the answer isn't its an old saw so it must be better.

[ken carroll]

My wife asked me the same question, but in a different way:

her: "Will you be able to make nicer furniture with this beat up old p.o.s versus your nice shiny green saw"

me: "Well, no..... but it's like driving a Jag vs driving a Ford"

her: "What do you mean?"

me: "Well, Ummm.....hey what's for dinner?"

[Dave Cav]

Dave,
I wired in 4 30amp 220v outlets in my workshop. Only two breakers though.
The RPC claims 30amp input so, although marginal I should be fine. I assume that's 30amp when driving a 7-1/2hp load. The Baldor claims to be something like 12 or 13 amps from memory, so again I don't think I'd need to upgrade my power.
When I ran power to the w/s I used 4ga wire from a 70amp breaker in the main panel.
Anyone have advice about good bang for the buck table inserts??

The motor is 3 phase and it draws 13 amps PER LEG for a total of 39. Plus you're going to have some losses with the RPC. You are only feeding it with 30 amps on your 220 service. The two 30 amp legs DO NOT add up; so, I think you may not have enough power going to the RPC. I still think a smaller (2 to 3 HP) 3 phase motor with a VFD would be the best way to go, but you might be able to get this working; I would check the voltage on the output side of the RPC with the saw running.

Nice job on the pulley. As for the insert, for my first one I just ripped a piece of 1/2" plywood and ran it through the planer 1 pass to take it to 7/16", then rounded the ends on the disk sander until it fit. I have a PM at work that I'll use for a template to make some more on the router table.

[ken carroll]

Dave,

Ah, of course.....

I'll keep an eye open for a C frame 3hp motor. 3 phase motors seem pretty plentiful, it's just getting the right face mount type and hp. I could up my subpanel breaker temporarily as I do have 4ga wire and a 70amp main panel breaker.

What a pain!

[Kirk Poore]

The motor is 3 phase and it draws 13 amps PER LEG for a total of 39. Plus you're going to have some losses with the RPC. You are only feeding it with 30 amps on your 220 service. The two 30 amp legs DO NOT add up; so, I think you may not have enough power going to the RPC. I still think a smaller (2 to 3 HP) 3 phase motor with a VFD would be the best way to go, but you might be able to get this working; I would check the voltage on the output side of the RPC with the saw running.


I don't think that's quite right, Dave. By that reasoning, you have to add the two legs of the 30 amps together to get 60 amps. Which is not to say that the 30 amps isn't too small--I think it is.

Ken, by my understanding, to get the single phase equivalent of what you need, you multiply the 3 phase FLA (13) time the square root of 3 (1.73) to get 22.5. Then your circuit has to be 25% above that, or about 28 amps. And your RPC is going to suck up some power too, which might easily put you over the 30 amp limit. I think you'll be much better off with a 40 amp breaker and correctly sized wiring for that. I'm running a 10 hp RPC off of a 40 amp single phase circuit and have had no trouble with motors up to and including 5 hp on a heavy load (30" bandsaw).

The PM 66 will run fine with two normal v-belts. I put a 2 belt pulley on my 3 hp PM 65 and it runs great. You'll rarely use those last two horses, and those belts have plenty to spare.

Since you have the equipment, make a metal motor cover. And you're a lucky dog for it.:)

Fence: Sorry, I don't know anything about those.

Low power issue: I don't know if you've solved that yet. Check for loose connections or excessive heat. You may need an ammeter.

Keith Micinski: This PM 66 is a little beat up, but in no way worn out. It probably has another 15 years before it will need new bearings, and after that it will go another 30, get bearings again...etc and so forth.

Good luck. You've got a great machine there and made a good start.

Kirk

[keith micinski]

I guess my question is where are the benefits. His grizzly that he already owned for free will last another 30 years. Its not like he is upgrading from a craftsman contractor saw to a new pm 66 with all of the bells and whistles. Its a cabinet, a trunion, a motor, a top and a fence. Three of which all need work to get going again. The only difference that I can tell from the pictures is that the Grizzly is already setup and dialed in. Most importantly the Grizzly doesn't need several hundred dollars, maybe more, of electrical and motor work to end up having the same 3 hp he already has. I am not trying to be a contrarian but I am just trying to figure out where the benefits are. I like restoring old things to and if that is why then have fun but it sounds like the original poster was also interested in having a better saw and to be honest with you a "Jaguar" with Bondo, Lucas electronics and a small block Chevy in it probably isn't going to be better then a nice, maintained Ford.

[Kirk Poore]

Keith:

I haven't looked under the hood of Ken's Grizzly, but I'm pretty sure you'd find that:

1. The PM castings are heavier, and probably higher quality--meaning much less likely to break and will wear less.
2. The PM bearings are better--larger, and possibly a higher grade.
3. The electrical controls on the saw are higher quality--heavier duty, bigger contacts, etc.
4. The 5 hp Baldor motor is a much higher quality motor.

Now, that being said, does Ken need that extra quality? I don't know--it depends on what he's building. But his son or his grandson might, and with a little maintenance that saw will still be going strong when they get it. The previous owner used that saw hard, and abused it some. Would a Grizzly have stood up to that? Maybe, but maybe not--and the 66 did.

Kirk

[Van Huskey]

When PM went from three belts to two belts I assumed it was because the two belts were something a bit more special than a couple of 4L V belts. Is that not so? Seems like going from 3 4L belts to 2 4L does nothing but reduce the ability to transfer power for the savings of about $5 in parts.

Particularly if the two pulleys are still 3 groove pulleys.......

The two belts are in a "pinch" configuration. It has the benefit of reducing vibration (not as much as a current poly V) and actually increases power transfer since it means that you get two belts working almost all the time. Triple V belts actually have one belt taking most of the power most of the time.

[ken carroll]

Kirk & Van,
Thanks for the belt information - sounds like 2 4L v-belts will do just fine.
That's good, two new 3vx pulleys and two 3vx belts is $106 plus shipping from PM.
That's actually pretty reasonable, but I'd rather not spend it if I didn't have to.

Kirk,
thanks for the power info - I was just about to edit my previous post when I saw yours!
I checked a single phase Baldor 5hp motor and it draws 19.5amps FL. It seemed unreasonable that a 3ph 5hp motor would draw 39amps to do the same amount of work. Now I'm hopeful that a simple subpanel breaker change will suffice. The outlet I would run the saw off is the closest one to the subpanel and can't ahve more than about 6ft of 10ga wire to it. As I mentioned before from main panel to subpanel it's all 4ga. Fingers crossed!

Not so lucky on the metalworking equipment! Between my Mill, lathe, E-wheel, bead roller, brake and three project cars I am strapped for room! The Pexto 52 inch shear was another wreck I bought as a project, I'm happy to say it's a nice looking unit now after a lot of work including brazing up one of the leg castings.

Haven't had the time to track down the power issue yet - need to buy another twistlock 220 plug for the RPC. I may bring a oscilloscope home from work to check the 3ph output of the RPC - I do have an ammeter at home too.

Thanks for the help!

[Cary Falk]

Keith,
Just give it up. It is hard to argue which is the better saw when words like "lure" "probably better", and "possibly better" are used .:D It comes down to what the owner wants. Some people like to tinker. The internet sucked me into buying an old fixer upper Unisaw. It was cool till the I realized it was not doing a couple of things I needed it to do. Was it a Porsche instead of a Ford? Maybe but it had an AM radio and no air conditioning.

People complain about taking a day to set up new equipment but will spend years rehabbing an old machine to get the same function and not utter a a bad word. People have had tables reground on old equipment because they were not flat, yet that is a huge complaint about new tools. I have see complaints about every tool company out there. Selective memory is a funny thing. If you are happy, you don't remember the journey it took to get there.

I look at that PM66 and see the broken pully, A cracked motor cover, a fence that won't lock down because it has been used so much it is bent in the front and wonder about quality. My Uni had missing teeth on the cast iron trunnion and the other trunnion had broken in another place that shouldn't have been an issue. Old iron people will defend these machines till they die. In the end they are all opinnions. If the owner is happy so be it. There are soo many choices for a reason.

[keith micinski]

Cary I agree with you, I just wanted to see if there were any actual benefits. Thicker trunnions and bearings just doesn't cut it for me. It does sound like Ken is enjoying the work and the challenge so far and that is all that really matters.

[ken carroll]

A power update.

I obtained an L6-30 plug and wired the RPC to the wall. I am getting about 240v-ish on each of L1-L2, L2-L3 and L1-L3. This was no load.

I then connected the motor to the magnetic switch and fired up the converter again.
Switch on and I'm getting about the same 240-ish volts between each pair.

So this is loaded, but only lightly. So far, so good.

At this point I think I may just reassemble everything and try the saw under heavy load.

[Neal Clayton]

Keith,
Just give it up. It is hard to argue which is the better saw when words like "lure" "probably better", and "possibly better" are used .:D It comes down to what the owner wants. Some people like to tinker. The internet sucked me into buying an old fixer upper Unisaw. It was cool till the I realized it was not doing a couple of things I needed it to do. Was it a Porsche instead of a Ford? Maybe but it had an AM radio and no air conditioning.

People complain about taking a day to set up new equipment but will spend years rehabbing an old machine to get the same function and not utter a a bad word. People have had tables reground on old equipment because they were not flat, yet that is a huge complaint about new tools. I have see complaints about every tool company out there. Selective memory is a funny thing. If you are happy, you don't remember the journey it took to get there.

I look at that PM66 and see the broken pully, A cracked motor cover, a fence that won't lock down because it has been used so much it is bent in the front and wonder about quality. My Uni had missing teeth on the cast iron trunnion and the other trunnion had broken in another place that shouldn't have been an issue. Old iron people will defend these machines till they die. In the end they are all opinnions. If the owner is happy so be it. There are soo many choices for a reason.

yeah but there are grades of used ;).

i use two old machines every day. a PM66 and a RAS. combined they have 80 years of use.

but on the other hand i did very little to either of them. got new belts and blade for the PM66, that's all it needed other than cleaning the rust. got a new blade and built a new top for the RAS and cleaned/regreased the motor, otherwise it works perfectly despite being originally shipped in 1948.

just like with anything else, there are deals and there are duds.

[Chip Lindley]

Just out of curiosity what are the perceived benefits of this worn out beaten up and sounds like slightly abused PM66 over the Grizzly? Other then getting to spend alot of money and do a lot of work to restore it that is. And I hope the answer isn't its an old saw so it must be better.

Keith, my only response is: If you have to ask, you would not understand anyhow. As you enjoy your perfectly good Grizzly stuff, that leaves one less in the running for "old, beat up, abused, made-in-USA machinery. The metallic gold PM's stand out to me! Mid-'90s Powermatics were the last completely made in USA, before castings began to be made in China and assembled in McMinnville. Of course, they can be broken or abused, but also repaired! There is nothing exciting about a brand new Chevrolet; but, lots of excitement over an Impala SS, from back in the day!

Ken, I am envious of your '91 PM66! IT was one of the last of a dying breed. The plastic motor cover was the first consession. Then came two belts instead of three, along with a generic Chinese mag starter instead of the expensive Gould/ITE. At least PM still used Baldor motors!

The Biesemeyer fence faces and stick-on tape measure can be ordered from Delta--IF you care to pay their prices. The tapes and table inserts are offered on ebay constantly. All things considered, your PM66 appears to be a keeper! I have seen much MUCH worse! It's problems are all minor and quite fixable. You are in a particularly good position to tackle it's rehab, since you have metal-working capabilities as well as being a woodworker.

As to your electrical problems, bypass the mag starter, and plug your motor directly into the output of the RPC. Lengths of four-conductor cable, and 4-prong 50A range connectors can be rigged up to plug in the motor once the RPC is running. See if that makes a big difference in motor power.

Make sure you are getting full voltage through all three contacts of the Gould/ITE mag starter. If those contacts are burned, more arcing results; a vicious cycle. Burnish the contacts with a Dremel wire wheel or fine file until they shine. Then try powering the motor through the mag starter from the RPC. IF the motor is not suffering any internal burn-out, clean contacts should make a huge difference.

[ken carroll]

Chip,

Thanks! I'm still hopeful.

I ordered a couple of strips of 1/2" thick UHMW for the fence and a Leecraft ZCI.
Also a Freud glue line rip blade as I'll pretty much only use the PM66 for ripping (I have a DeWalt 790 for CC)

At this point I still don't know if I have an electrical problem or not. There's still a good chance that the sellers shop was under wired for the job. I won't know for sure until I force the saw to try to rip a slab of hardwood at a fast pace.
I know for sure that under light load at least I have adequate voltage at the motor on all three legs.

The trunnions/racks and bearings are very nice on this saw - no wear that I can see or feel.

Edit: Good advice on the Mag starter contacts. All of mine were ugly. Worked them up to 600grit paper, now they look good.

[ken carroll]

Another update (if anyone cares!).

Powered up the saw and ran a 4x12 fir beam through it (crosscut) - not the hardest of tests but the blade was completely buried in the wood for a portion of the cut obviously.

No slowing of the motor/blade. She runs like a champ! Whether it was burned contacts/bad wiring or just poor power in the sellers shop I won't ever know but it's no problem in my shop.

Added some levelling feet to the saw and bought a more appropriate gauge replacement "tube" for the Bies fence - 3x2x1/8" wall, still thicker than the 14ga stock unit but a bit less unwieldy than the 50-lb 1/4" wall replacement the seller furnished.

Tomorrow I'll fit the new fence tube, set up the Bies and really give it a test!

Still undecided whether to keep my Griz or the PM66.

[Paul Murphy]

Glad to hear you are getting the pm66 back into shape. I had a nice delta saw before my pm66, and the delta was a fine saw, no issues. The pm66 is so much heavier, it just absorbs any vibration...I wear earplugs and if I couldn't see the blade turning I wouldn't know the saw was running.

As far as the tubing for the fence, check that it is acceptably straight as any error will transfer to the fence. I've seen brand new fences delivered with tubing that wasn't straight.

Once you get the pm66 set up properly it will sell very easily if you decide to keep the grizz.

[Rick Potter]

Ummm, never mind.

RP

[Chip Lindley]

I'm almost as happy as you are Ken! Appears your PM66 is cutting like a champ now! Glad I could contribute a little to it's success!

[ken carroll]

After my last post in this thread I found out that my PM-66 was still weak compared with my 3hp Grizzly.

Ripping a 4x12 fir beam on the Griz with the blade at maximum elevation (fully buried in the beam)was no problem. On the PM-66 I had to back off the feed rate.

After spending much time disassembling and reassembling the motor which checked out fine, rewiring the RPC, checking voltages and currents and generally getting frustrated I finally discovered that neither the RPC or the motor or the wiring is responsible for the weak performance of my PM-66.

Everyone who has commented on my two 4L belt setup has said that it is adequate, well I can confirm that it isn't! I had my wife monitor the fan in the end of teh motor while I stalled the blade in the cut ripping that 4x12.
When stalled, the motor was still spinning away merrily.

Two 3VX belts as in the later PM setup may well be fine, BUT two 4L belts where there should be three just isn't adequate it seems.

Now, should I buy a new arbor pulley and a set of three 4L230 belts or migrate to the newer PM twin 3Vx belt setup?

[Paul Murphy]

I'm surprised that your 2 belts slip, are they glazed? Are the belts properly sized and matched (if the belts are not "matched" closely, only one gets enough tension to carry a load)?

If that checks, then the next cheapest fix is probably the 3-belt pulley and belts. I think the 3vx setup is possibly fractionally smoother, but you would be buying 2 pulleys rather than 1.

I had heard you have a 3rd option...the serpentine single belt setup from the PM2000?

OK, I would keep costs under control, and buy the 3-belts and pulley if 2 new belts aren't enough.

[Norman Hitt]

I'm surprised that your 2 belts slip, are they glazed? Are the belts properly sized and matched (if the belts are not "matched" closely, only one gets enough tension to carry a load)?

If that checks, then the next cheapest fix is probably the 3-belt pulley and belts. I think the 3vx setup is possibly fractionally smoother, but you would be buying 2 pulleys rather than 1.

I had heard you have a 3rd option...the serpentine single belt setup from the PM2000?

OK, I would keep costs under control, and buy the 3-belts and pulley if 2 new belts aren't enough.

Paul, I talked to PM not long after the PM 2000 came out and asked if I could convert my '91 3 hp PM 66 to the serpentine belt system and they said it would NOT fit on my 66. (I don't know why, OR if that information has changed or not)

I think that "POSSIBLY" part of the cause for the belts slipping "MIGHT" be caused by the misalignment of the motor and arbor pulleys, because the misalignment is great enough that it is obvious in the picture Ken posted. That misalignment AND the fact that the belts have slipped could have also possibly changed the diameter of one of the belts and also added to the slipping problem. I don't know what the problem is for sure, but it appears that there needs to be a spacer added between the motor mount's face and the arbor casting to move the motor pulley in line with the arbor pulley, (but maybe that is just the way it shows up in the photo. Anyhow, it might be worth checking out.

It's looking good so far Ken, and I'm sure you will get the puzzle figured out before you're done. (maybe you could cut some length off the arbor pulley where you machined off the broken part so it would slip further onto the arbor shaft and line up with the motor pulley if you can't shim between the motor mount and the arbor).

Good luck

PS: My Serial # is 91661238 and it has three belts. I bought it new, (well, correct that), it was one of the many new machines that Powermatic provided for use by the contestants at the National VICA Convention and Contests in Louisville, Ky. that year and was used lightly for part of 2 days by the contestants for their project. Rather than ship them back to their warehouse, Powermatic made a good deal to Schools, Shop Teachers etc. at the end of the Contests, and since I was there with my wife who was on the National Vica Advisory Committee, I Qualified to purchase one.:D

[Don Jarvie]

Two belts should be fine so I'd get 2 new ones and check the alignment like Norm suggested. Check the set screws on the motor and arbor pulley and make sure they are tight. It can happen even though you just put it on. Also make sure the belts fit correctly in the slots.

Bring one of the belts to an autoparts store and see if they have them. No need to buy them from Powermatic unless they are an odd size.

I just rehabbed my planer and jointer and the arbor pulley on the jointer and one of the set screws on the rollers loosened up so it can happen. Go and retighten everything.

Don

[Paul Murphy]

I just rehabbed my planer and jointer and the arbor pulley on the jointer and one of the set screws on the rollers loosened up so it can happen. Go and retighten everything.

Don
Blue Locktite can help. What I like about the blue Locktite is you can break the bond with normal tool force without risk of breaking or rounding over tools or fasteners.

[ken carroll]

Hi Guys,

Part of the original problem as shown in the pictures, is that the arbor was misaligned. I had to move it inward about 1/4" before it was where it should be. The seller had the pulleys offset by about a whole groove. I say "about" because I never actually checked the alignment before I moved the arbor.

The belts are standard old 4L230 V belts, in my case Goodyear cogged on the inside type. They sure look the same length unloaded, but I'm sure "matched" means more than that.

Getting the two pulleys aligned is certainly do-able, it's a standard PM Baldor VM3613 motor and a standard PM arbor so there should be no surprises there (for a change!)

What's annoying is that the 3 groove pulleys are no longer available. I notice that Grizzly (ironic!) caries one but it's 17mm bore/5mm keyway so won't fit.

Now I'm ticked off that I turned off that partly broken flange for the third grove.

Anyone know of a new or used source for a PM pulley?

Oh, BTW mines a 91 vintage saw also.

[Chuck Wintle]

Hi Guys,

Part of the original problem as shown in the pictures, is that the arbor was misaligned. I had to move it inward about 1/4" before it was where it should be. The seller had the pulleys offset by about a whole groove. I say "about" because I never actually checked the alignment before I moved the arbor.

The belts are standard old 4L230 V belts, in my case Goodyear cogged on the inside type. They sure look the same length unloaded, but I'm sure "matched" means more than that.

Getting the two pulleys aligned is certainly do-able, it's a standard PM Baldor VM3613 motor and a standard PM arbor so there should be no surprises there (for a change!)

What's annoying is that the 3 groove pulleys are no longer available. I notice that Grizzly (ironic!) caries one but it's 17mm bore/5mm keyway so won't fit.

Now I'm ticked off that I turned off that partly broken flange for the third grove.

Anyone know of a new or used source for a PM pulley?

Oh, BTW mines a 91 vintage saw also.

Have you tried ebay for used parts?

[Paul Murphy]

Have you tried ebay for used parts?

That is actually a good source sometimes.

Also, check with these guys:
http://www.redmondmachinery.com/page.htm?PG=PartsDepotUSA

Also, ask a good welding shop about building up material on your pulley that you (or a machine shop) could then turn into a third groove on the lathe. If you google the belt type, you will find a drawing with the depth, width, and angles to form the groove if that is easier than trying to match the existing grooves.

[Paul Murphy]

You might have to measure your pulley and order one. You may be able to use a pulley from Delta or Grizzly, but you would probably have to take the measurement from an existing saw. I think some of the Delta pulleys are only about $30.

The Browning line offers the most extensive V-drive line available anywhere
http://www.emerson-ept.com/

http://www.daltonbearing.com/browning/browning-pulleys.aspx

http://www.mcmaster.com/#v-belt-pulleys/=9in7tq (http://www.mcmaster.com/#v-belt-pulleys/=9in7tq)

[Dave Cav]

Hi Guys,


Anyone know of a new or used source for a PM pulley?



I'm surprised PM no longer stocks the pulley, but only slightly.

You might try over at OWWM and put a WTB (wanted to buy) ad in the BOYD forum, and do a search on the same forum for one for sale. One from a 65 might fit, too.

[george wilson]

Google Boston Gear Co. They sell Browning pulleys of all types,IF they are still in business.

[ken carroll]

Guys,

I've had no luck locating a 3 groove pulley new. Except for "request quote" type places where, I know the cost of the pulley would exceed the cost of a complete 3vx setup from PM.

Anyway, something (else) I was not aware of is that standard 4L belts (I currently have two 4L 230 ) are the bottom of the barrel as far as power handling is concerned.
AX belts have the same profile as 4L belts and are therefore interchangeable and can handle substantially more power.
I'm going to try a pair of AX21 belts and see how it goes.

[Chip Lindley]

My thought exactly Ken! Two belts should transfer plenty of power to the blade, except in the most extreme instance. The third belt would just be insurance.

IF one of your old belts is a bit stretched, you are not getting the full power transferred by both. One belt is then overworked and easily slips under 5hp! Get that matching pair of AX belts and see if your PM doesn't hum right through anything you can throw at it.

Meanwhile, you can post a "WTB" for 3-sheave arbor pulley over at OWWM. Those guys have spare parts out the wazoo!