Shaper questions

[Jonathan Spool]

I was at an auction yesterday to get a Delta 12" Turret RAS (instead of rebuilding the one I have) and there was a Delta 43-454 shaper there as well. So naturally I had to bid on it! I picked it up for $350 along with olong with a couple Amana groovers that were mounted on it. It looks to be 1 1/4 spindle and 5hp. The fence mechanism was just sitting on top with no fence boards. Each side adjusts with a big micro adjutable knob.

I've only used router tables, and am not familiar with shapers, but as I want to build new doors for my home, this will be a welcome addition. I checked on the cost of a couple stile & rail sets with 1 1/4 bore, and they cost more than what I paid for the shaper!

I would appreciate recommendations for a shaper for dummies guide, as I imagine theres more to it than a router table.

If someone can tell me how to post a photo, I'll get one posted>

[Stephen Cherry]

If you need cutters, I would call Dave at Oella saw and tool. He gets used tooling and reconditions it, at great prices. New stuff also. I bought a bunch of knives from him, and they worked great. He also has the cad equipment to make custom knives if you let him know what you want.

[Stephen Cherry]

also, here is a book:

http://www.owwm.com/pubs/detail.aspx?id=1060

One thing to remember, this book was written a while ago, so some of the things might not be up to current practices, as far as safety goes.

[Jonathan Spool]

164625

If I got this to work, there should be a picture of the shaper, and one of the fence.

[Peter Quinn]

I was at an auction yesterday to get a Delta 12" Turret RAS (instead of rebuilding the one I have) and there was a Delta 43-454 shaper there as well. So naturally I had to bid on it! I picked it up for $350 along with olong with a couple Amana groovers that were mounted on it. It looks to be 1 1/4 spindle and 5hp. The fence mechanism was just sitting on top with no fence boards. Each side adjusts with a big micro adjustable knob.

I've only used router tables, and am not familiar with shapers, but as I want to build new doors for my home, this will be a welcome addition. I checked on the cost of a couple stile & rail sets with 1 1/4 bore, and they cost more than what I paid for the shaper!

I would appreciate recommendations for a shaper for dummies guide, as I imagine theres more to it than a router table.

If someone can tell me how to post a photo, I'll get one posted>


First, Congrats on that purchase, thats one heck of a deal! Second, those Delta fences (newer style with the big micro adjust knobs) usually had aluminum fence plates with a single point toolless adjustment which works great. It may be worth tracking down those plates. You could make your own out of wood but the aluminum is nice. They are held on by a steel bar that rides in a t slot on the back.

On tooling, welcome to the shaper reality. The cost of a basic set of cutters to do a variety of things can easily be 4X-5X the cost of the shaper NEW, and good cope and stick sets are pricey. With only 1 1/4" spindle, your choices are limited to expensive sets. Look into getting a 3/4" spindle for that machine, and you can get a set from Infinity with 3/4" bore that works great and costs a lot less. The big spindle works better, smoother, and cleaner, but you pay for that privilege in higher tooling costs.

One cost effective option would be a 40MM insert set such as amana profile pro. THey have a cope and stick insert set, the head and knives can be had for $150, and they do a reasonably good job. They have only one stock molded profile but you can have knives made from most good tooling places. I have made several doors with my amana head and it works great for a limited production basis.

Books? There are only a few. Lonnie Byrd comes to mind first. There is also a good book from the UK available on amazon called the Spindle Molder Handbook by Stephenson. And frankly the info in the delta manual is very useful and well written.

You are correct in your understanding that a shaper is not merely a big router table. It can be a safe and powerful tool or a dangerous menace depending on how YOU set it up and use it. It has a lot of power that you can't over come manually, so proper stock feeding and control is essential. A feeder is a big help for both safety and quality, hold downs are necessary at a minimum. The hood on that shaper is built to accept a decent hold down set up and there are always finger boards or board buddies if a feeder is not in the budget. Please ask as many questions as necessary here to improve your understanding of the machine, and if possible seek out some one locally that can show you the basics in person. Its the things you didn't know to ask that may harm you.

PS, under no circumstances should you ever climb cut free hand on a shaper. That is do not climb cut without a power feeder. NEVER.

Oh, and on the door issue, you can build beautiful panel mold doors with a shaper and a few groovers. You don't need a matched set to make great doors unless you must have a cope and stick profile. You can also get router bits for cope and stick doors from Freud at a significant cost savings but you will pay in time spent and perhaps quality? Might be more sanding using a router table. A shaper beats the router for panel raising by far IME, so you could do a hybrid shaper/router table method to save on tooling?

[Dave Cav]

I can't argue with anything Peter said and would only add a few things:

Some people feel that a 3/4" spindle is the ideal size for the Delta HD/PM 27 size shaper, and as Peter said, tooling is a LOT cheaper. Richard over on OWWM sells reworked Grizzly spindles that should drop right into your machine for quite a bit less than OEM new. He will also rebuild your cartridge if need be. If your shaper came out of a commercial shop where they ran a lot of large cutters on that 1 1/4" arbor, it might need new bearings.

If you are planning to run a lot of work like molding, T&G or shiplaps, then a feeder will really come in handy. Again, you will pay (at least) twice what your shaper cost for a new feeder. Used ones don't come up very often and when they do they are usually attached to something else. The other nice thing about a feeder is you can safely climb cut and get a better cut.

I also second the opinion on the 40 mm profile head. I have the CMT version (identical to the Amana) and it works fine. Since the cutters are HSS it won't stay sharp as long as carbide, but for home or light commercial use it will be fine. Additional knives are also very reasonable, and you could, in theory, grind your own profiles too.

[Jonathan Spool]

Thanks for the input and suggestions. The interior doors of my home range from 40" to 44" wide and are heavy solid core. I'll be replacing them with 1 3/4 to 2 1/8 thick doors that will be panel doors for the bedrooms, and a sudo shoji glass pane design for public areas.
Considering the thickness of the stock I'll be working with, I'll probably stick with the big spindle and bite the bullet with the additional cutter costs.

I never used a power feed. If I can get one inexpensively, is it worthwhile for a private shop, or more of a pain to set up for smaller projects?

Also, I can't find a source for parts for the micro adjustable fence. I'd like to get the aluminum fence plates, and need a set of the bolts that hold the fence to the table. If anyone has a link for that I'd really appreciate it.

Its tough enough getting a clean cope cut in the end of a 42" cabinet door stile, clamped to a good jig, on the router table. How do you go about shaping the end of a stile thats 72" x 6" x 2"? Is attaching a Jessem MastR Slide to the front of the shaper a stupid idea? It works great on the saw. Why not on the shaper?

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks for the input and suggestions. The interior doors of my home range from 40" to 44" wide and are heavy solid core. I'll be replacing them with 1 3/4 to 2 1/8 thick doors that will be panel doors for the bedrooms, and a sudo shoji glass pane design for public areas.
Considering the thickness of the stock I'll be working with, I'll probably stick with the big spindle and bite the bullet with the additional cutter costs.

I never used a power feed. If I can get one inexpensively, is it worthwhile for a private shop, or more of a pain to set up for smaller projects?

Also, I can't find a source for parts for the micro adjustable fence. I'd like to get the aluminum fence plates, and need a set of the bolts that hold the fence to the table. If anyone has a link for that I'd really appreciate it.

Its tough enough getting a clean cope cut in the end of a 42" cabinet door stile, clamped to a good jig, on the router table. How do you go about shaping the end of a stile thats 72" x 6" x 2"? Is attaching a Jessem MastR Slide to the front of the shaper a stupid idea? It works great on the saw. Why not on the shaper?

Well, you can order 50MM knives from CMT that will fit the 40MM heads, they have sets for 1 3/4" doors, but again only in a single profile (cove and bead). Look at http://www.cheyennesales.com for the CMT version. I'd use the 1 1/4" spindle for those insert heads too. In fact I do.

For fence parts, go to www.dewaltservicenet.com, the omnibus "Black and decker owned companies" parts site. (dewaltservicenet.com) Search for part number 43-812. Click the link for fence 43-812. You can order the whole fence as a separate item, but it costs more than you paid for the shaper! They also sell parts for it, but be prepared to gasp when you look at the prices.

Power feed for small shop? Yes, definitely worth it. It feeds at a consistent rate making for very clean cuts, it acts as a powerful hold down mechanism, and it keeps your hands a safe distance form those large knives you will be spinning. Set up takes a minute or two at best once the thing is on the machine, where it will generally live. I have a Grizzly that works reasonably well for limited runs, I also have a Steff that works better but costs at least 1/3 more new. I'm thinking for the sudo shoji doors a good groover is more effective than cope and stick? In that case you may want to consider either a euro-groover with top and bottom spurs ($$$$) or a basic 3 wing, which will probably require a climb cut to avoid tear out, which will require a feeder! I have both at this point, I love the euro groovers, but I generally use them with a feeder too.

For coping mid stiles a mast-r-slide or other small slider would be a fine idea, but I doubt it will cantilever that much material effectively. At work I use a miter gauge and an adjustable saw horse, no problem. At home I made a good coping jig, and I use an adjustable saw horse as out feed support for end grain work on long boards, No problem. I have a new mast-r-slide sitting in the box, and I haven't decided whether to put it on a shaper or TS yet. Seems either would be appropriate. Delta also sells a slider that would work.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'll be replacing them with 1 3/4 to 2 1/8 thick doors that will be panel doors for the bedrooms, and a sudo shoji glass pane design for public areas.
Considering the thickness of the stock I'll be working with, I'll probably stick with the big spindle and bite the bullet with the additional cutter costs.



For thick stock, you may want to consider corrugated back knives with an insert head. The euro 40 and 50 mm knives are fine, and cheap, but they are limited to 40 or 50 mm. If you use a 2" corrugated head you can project out from the top and bottom of the head somewhat, which would take you up to at least 2 1/4 inches height. Corrugated insert knives are thicker and stronger than euro insert knives, which allows a greater projection to cut a deeper profile. The great thing about the 40mm, 50mm, and corrugated knives is that they are actually cheaper than you would think, and allow for custom knives without breaking the bank. I have a Leitz head, and it seems pretty good. There are cheaper heads also.

One thing to remember, this is a lot of rotating blade. It's not like a table saw, where if you cut your finger off there is a chance it can be sewn back on. With each cutter setup you want to think hard about safety, and making sure you have all of the guard that is possible. Cover the top of the cutter with whatever works for a particular setup. For example, for raising panels, you want the top of the cutterhead to be completely covered, with just enough opening to get the stock through.

[Stephen Cherry]

Richard over on OWWM sells reworked Grizzly spindles that should drop right into your machine for quite a bit less than OEM new. He will also rebuild your cartridge if need be. If your shaper came out of a commercial shop where they ran a lot of large cutters on that 1 1/4" arbor, it might need new bearings.



Richard is very easy to deal with, and does a great job at a very reasonable cost. Put your cartridge in one of those 11 dollar boxes from the post office, drop it in the box, and it comes back working great in about a week. (maybe 75 dollars, installed) One thing to remember about these delta shapers is that they are at the small end as far as bearings go.

[Jonathan Spool]

I just gotta ask! Regarding insert heads: Is there any risk of these things ever throwing a blade?
Are there differen heads for different types of profiles? I imagine a panel cutting head is different from a crown moulding head.

[Rod Sheridan]

I just gotta ask! Regarding insert heads: Is there any risk of these things ever throwing a blade?
Are there differen heads for different types of profiles? I imagine a panel cutting head is different from a crown moulding head.


http://www.amazon.com/Spindle-Moulder-Handbook-Eric-Stephenson/dp/0854421505

Hi, the above link is to the most up to date shaper (spindle molder) book in print, that I've found.

The other books from North America, are dated , and don't cover modern best practice safety standards, while the above book does.

Modern insert heads are typically of the pin and wedge type, they are very safe and meet the current EU regulations.

For home use I would avoid lockedge or corrugated heads as they require more skill and knowledge to mount correctly.

And yes, different uses use different shape insert heads.

I often use the 40mm head with HSS knives, very economical, limited to solid wood of course.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. I consider a stock feeder a must have.

[Peter Quinn]

I just gotta ask! Regarding insert heads: Is there any risk of these things ever throwing a blade?
Are there differen heads for different types of profiles? I imagine a panel cutting head is different from a crown moulding head.

Toss a knife? This is possible with corrugated back heads IF the knives are installed incorrectly, though I have never known it to happen. If the knives are installed correctly, its nearly impossible. With most "euro-block" insert sets, the wedge and pin that Rod describes, it is very very unlikely, approaching impossible. The biggest problem I see with with corrugated heads for cope and stick work is that there is no built in alignment mechanism. It is more difficult to set the two knives perfectly, which may make thin tongues, fat grooves, and bad fit. i have used matched knives with corrugated heads, but it takes some fiddling, and you must know how to install these knives, they are not difficult but neither are they fool proof.

Basically there are two broad categories of insert heads, general purpose and special purpose. A general purpose head uses steel knife inserts that are not backed by the cutter head's shape. This allows a single head to run a wide variety of shapes, but limits the depth of cut based on the knives thickness. 2MM thick knives typical of inexpensive 40MM euro block insert heads are for instance limited to 5/8" depth of profile. There are thicker knife types that can take a deeper cut. For instance there is a 3/8" steel for corrugated back knives that can take a much deeper cut, perhaps 1 1/2"? And there are thicker inserts for different types of euro heads too. The real beauty of the 40MM euro blocks is that the knives are around $20 each for stock profiles which is very economical.

Special purpose insert heads perform one or one of a limited number of shaping functions. The head is milled to closely match the shape of the knives being used and acts as a backer for the knife steel, so a deeper cut can be taken with a thin knife as it is nearly fully supported. For example I have an insert panel raising head, it makes five different profiles, the carbide knives are very thin, and very sharp. There are many heads of this type, such as round overs, chamfers, door sets, cabinet sets, groovers, etc. The list keeps growing. Most of the insert heads are more expensive than traditional three wing cutters with braised carbide, but replacing inserts is cheaper than sharpening, you can replace a single knife in a matched set if it gets nicked without sending the whole set out for repair, and you never run the risk of having your matched set not match after sharpening. For a small non commercial shop it would be difficult to justify many of the expensive insert heads on a practical basis, or frankly any basis other than having the money and wanting the coolest tools!

[Doug Mason]

Thi is a timely discussion as I should be recieving any day now an order I placed with Schmidt--an order for:
(1) a 1 1/4 bore innovator for raised panels and a couple respective profiles
(2) a 4" x 4" two knife corregated cutter head
(3) a cope & stick set for the corregated head (5/16 inch knife thickness)

Would I have been better off going with a dedicted head for the cope & stick (or a freeborn set)? I don't know--it didn't occur to me--but I'll find out! So I just went with the corregated head so that I could also run different profiles (between 1/4 and 3/8 thick); Each Schmidt profile is about $120 (for a pair--so it aint cheap).

You'll also need some coves, quarter rounds, beads, etc. I have concluded that I'll have to go with a 3/4 bore on these items (1 1/4 bore is just too expensive)--perhaps Amana (or Lietz--I'll have to see the price difference).

On a side note (sorry if I am digressing here)--anyone want to offer advice on which 1 1/4 bore tenon cutters I should get,:
(1) either the Schmidt coping heads (3/4 inch thick, 8 inch radius) at $600 for the pair (page 27 of the Schmidt catalog) or
(2) the Felder adjustable slotting cutters (200 mm radius) at $320 for the pair (item 04.1.200)

Once I become familiar with the Schmidt stuff I just ordered I am going to get one of the above tenon cutters (which will be about all the 1 1/4 bore tooling I'll need). One advantage with the Schmidt coping disks is I can get a custom cope cutter made (I've been talking to Schmidt about this) that will fit right onto the coping disk to make up to 3 inch tenons w/ a cope cut (i.e., just like a tenoner). Each cope profile will be about $150--which isn't bad in the big picture.

This stuff gets expensive real quick--and like everything else there will be tooloing mistakes made as you learn the ropes!!!

[Peter Quinn]

Would I have been better off going with a dedicted head for the cope & stick (or a freeborn set)? I don't know--it didn't occur to me--but I'll find out! So I just went with the corrugated head so that I could also run different profiles (between 1/4 and 3/8 thick); Each Schmidt profile is about $120 (for a pair--so it aint cheap).



The main problem with the corrugated knives, or any knife of the sort that makes the whole profile in a singe piece of steel, is that once dull, how do you sharpen them without changing the fit? They always move towards sloppy. So the value really depends on the volume of doors you will be producing. A few doors for your house? Corrugated is a great value. A small business making doors over 20 years? The corrugated becomes a false economy IMO unless you can grind your own, which gets expensive.

What I'd like is an insert door "set", like Garniga sells. Distinct cutters for top, bottom and groove or tongue each with carbide insert knives. Rather expensive, but a good value over a greater volume of doors. Mostly what I use now are traditional 3 wing sets. The other problem with corrugated knives is glass doors. It is IME much easier to produce bars for doors and windows with a 6 cutter head set than with one piece insert knives, and you can make both 1 3/8" passage and 1 3/4" entry doors with the same set. Its not impossible to make TDL's with one piece knives, just more difficult. Think about how to get the glass rabbit out and how to make the glass bead, and also how to cope the ends of the muntins which will have a stub tenon. Much easier with a stacked set than a single knife, but a basic 3/4" door stack will cost $300, and an insert set will approach $1500-$2500.

[Chip Lindley]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164625&thumb=1&d=1287341436
http://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164624&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1287341436

Heck of a Deal, Jonathan! YOU SUCK! Especially if that 5hp motor is single-phase! You will need a 240V, 30A circuit to run it on.

All I will add here is, Respect that shaper! It is TONS more Serious than any router table. Since you got such a dirt-cheap deal on it, consider springing for a 1 hp. stock feeder. You will be glad you did!

[Chris Fournier]

I am currently upgrading from my 3/4" shaper to an industrial 1 1/4" machine - part of a Euro Combo machine. I'm bracing myself for tooling costs. I'll continue to watch this thread looking for the more experienced users suggestions regarding desirable tooling and suppliers.

[Jonathan Spool]

OK. I do suck on this on a bit, but not as much as getting the Delta 12" RAS (in near mint cond.) for $85.
And yes the shaper is single phase.164821

[J.R. Rutter]

A quick note on tooling. Freeborn has an insert set for cope and stick that takes multiple profile knives and is shimmable for exact groove size. It is a 7 piece set with split groover. Very similar to the euro style. MSRP is $899 for cabinet doors, IIRC. Passage doors are more, but I don't remember how much.

[Jonathan Spool]

Well, with a little elbow grease, some wrenching, and some parts I aquired with the help of Chris Rosenberger, the shaper is almost finished. I'm still waiting on the fence T rails from Delta.
This is what I started with:
167295
and this is what I ended up with:
167296
I don't have a power feeder, so am hoping the Jessem slider will help a lot, especially with coping long door pieces.
Now to find some cutters!

[Chris Rosenberger]

It looks great Jonathan.
I like how you mounted the slider.

[Peter Quinn]

That is a beauty! Enjoy that and work safe!

[David Prince]

A good deal and an impressive transformation. It looks better than new.

[Mark Bolton]

Man, what a steal deal. 350 bucks is unreal. The RAS is a fantastic score as well, man you hit the jackpot. With all the money you saved it really will help with the tooling as compared to setting a shaper up new.

Mark

[Chip Lindley]

Jonathan, you have $350 invested in a $2000+ machine there. Take your time discovering the possibilities of tooling for it before you take the plunge. A few test cuts will tell you if the JessEm attachment is up for shaper work. Any deflection will ruin your cuts in thick door stock. You may find that making a heavy-duty sled to run in the table slot works best for coping work. Check out http://www.weaver-sales.com/ for ideas of all shaper accessories available. Much more heavy-duty than router stuff!

Looks like your nice shaper has interchangable spindles. If you can buy the 3/4" spindle for it, that may be a better avenue than spending on 1-1/4" tooling. Especially for only one home door project. But, there are economical cutters for your 1-1/4" spindle at:

http://www.elitetools.ca/product/stile-rail-sets-roman-ogee-roman-ogee-773

If you don't have a parts diagram of your shaper here is one:

http://www.mikestools.com/download/Delta-Parts-Lists/43-454-2-Speed-Heavy-Duty-Wood-Shaper-WS2D1.pdf

Heckofadeal on that shaper!
~Chip~

[Peter Quinn]

Looks like your nice shaper has interchangable spindles. If you can buy the 3/4" spindle for it, that may be a better avenue than spending on 1-1/4" tooling. Especially for only one home door project.


I just finished up an entry door for a client using an Infinity 3/4" cutter set, I bought it new but second hand from Ebay for next to nothing. It worked great. I spun it at 10K RPMs, the material was African Mahogany, I took two passes on the molding cuts to avoid any chatter from the lighter spindle diameter. To do this I just set my fence depth for the full pass I wanted, then quick clamped two pieces of 1/4" MDF to the fences, ran a first pass, pulled these shims, second pass was smooth as glass, no sanding necessary. So I'm going to second CHip's suggestion that you don't have to buy top dollar industrial tooling even to make a whole house full of doors. I'm also seeing a lot of freeborn mini pro 3/4" entry door sets on Ebay, I got one of those and it works pretty darn well too for short money

[Jonathan Spool]

Thanks Chip,
That Weaver equipment is nice stuff, but a grand for a stile and rail set is a little steep for me! Even with th great drawings on their site I still can't figure out how to run the copes and leave a long tenon. The tenon can't be longer than the distance from the edge of the cutter to the shaft, but thats another post! A 3/4" shaft is available for the shaper but it doesn't seem that the cutters are that much less expensive than the 1 1/4" cutters. Pete,, were you able to retain your tenons with the Infinity door set?

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Chip,
That Weaver equipment is nice stuff, but a grand for a stile and rail set is a little steep for me! Even with th great drawings on their site I still can't figure out how to run the copes and leave a long tenon. The tenon can't be longer than the distance from the edge of the cutter to the shaft, but thats another post! A 3/4" shaft is available for the shaper but it doesn't seem that the cutters are that much less expensive than the 1 1/4" cutters. Pete,, were you able to retain your tenons with the Infinity door set?

They do sell an extended tenon cutter that makes maybe a 2 1/4" tenon for the door sets, but I find that a bit lshort for exterior doors. I use loose tenons or dowels with cope and stick sets. I prefer loose tenons for anything exterior that swings or moves like doors and windows, dowels are fine for fixed sash things like side lites. To make integral tenons with cope and stick you need a big tenon disk (8"-10") with insert knives, and those really like to be used with a big sliding table shaper. I know Schmidt has those tenon heads. I have a slot mortiser that makes light work of the loose tenon slots. A good drill press would work also if you jig up the table for the end grain rail cuts, though long mid rails would not work there. A creative drilling jig or a big plunge router could also work.

[Paul McGaha]

Great score on both of those tools and the shaper cleaned up beautifully.

PHM

[Jonathan Spool]

Peter,
Thanks, and of course a floating tenon is the way to go! For a 42" x 2 1/4" door, is there any rule of thumb for how wide the stiles should be?
My guess is that I'll be cavemaning the stile mortises out, unless I can figure out how to rig the mortiser on its side!

[John Petsche]

Awesome advice and tips, thanks.

[frank shic]

wow dirt cheap for a good 5 hp! enjoy raising those panels with a single pass ;)

[Jeff Duncan]

Hmmm, I keep getting suckered into reading these old threads!