Which Brand Planes?

[Jonathan Spool]

I have never purchased a hand plane. All my planes come from either my grandfather or father. Old Stanleys, Sargeants, etc. Good workers, but have seen better days. Now that I am incorporating hand tuning toi my power tool work, I have ordered some Bad Axe saws, and want to get some good planes. A low angle block plane, a Smoothing plane, and a shoulder plane. Probably a good shooting plane as well. Don't need any Joiners as I' use power for that. The Veritas planes look very appealing, especially with the different degree blade options readily available, which make the low angle plane quite versatile. Their skewed block plane also looks pretty good. How do they compare to Lie Nielsen planes, or the new Stanleys that are out? Should I even lookat the Primus planes, or are they too hard to tune? Suggestions would be appreciated.

[Johnny Kleso]

For a smoother I would buy a nice used Stanley off eBay but for low angle you can buy a Low Angle Jack and use it for shooting as well..
Rob Lee makes some really nice planes you might want a LA smoother as well but I think a No.4 will work just fine with a blade upgrade and save money for other tools..

[John A. Callaway]

the Schwarz writes and has said many times that is no discernible difference in quality or performance when comparing LN to Veritas... many on here will agree... Both companies offer planes the other one does not though...

[Jim Koepke]

I like my old Stanleys that have been tuned up. Being more of a traditionalist has me preferring the Lie-Nielsen planes over the Veritas planes. This is because they tend to follow the Stanley design to some extent. Only 3 of my planes are from them. Most of my planes are pre-WW II Stanley/Bailey style planes.

I think both LN and Veritas are quality products. They are just designed different.

You will likely be happy with either companies products. One of my LN planes is the #62. It is great for shooting end grain and face planing.

jtk

[John Coloccia]

I have never purchased a hand plane. All my planes come from either my grandfather or father. Old Stanleys, Sargeants, etc. Good workers, but have seen better days. Now that I am incorporating hand tuning toi my power tool work, I have ordered some Bad Axe saws, and want to get some good planes. A low angle block plane, a Smoothing plane, and a shoulder plane. Probably a good shooting plane as well. Don't need any Joiners as I' use power for that. The Veritas planes look very appealing, especially with the different degree blade options readily available, which make the low angle plane quite versatile. Their skewed block plane also looks pretty good. How do they compare to Lie Nielsen planes, or the new Stanleys that are out? Should I even lookat the Primus planes, or are they too hard to tune? Suggestions would be appreciated.

I own both LN and Veritas planes, and I can tell you that they are both of the highest quality and will give you wonderful performance right out of the box. In this respect, the Veritas actually has a little edge. Their irons are very sharp right out of the box. LN irons really need a little extra honing first. This doesn't really matter, of course, but it was a nice touch on the Veritas.

I've no axe to grind with Stanley but from what I've see, I wouldn't spend a dime on their new planes. You can't really compare them to LN or Veritas at all. It's in a completely different league. Your money would be much better spent on an old Stanley, or maybe even the WoodRiver planes. Personally, I would just stick with LN and Veritas if you can because you will have no surprises. Everything is right and proper on their tools.

[george wilson]

Like Jim,I like the LN planes the best. I just got the new "Art Deco" looking Veritas block plane,the all polished model. Though I really like its looks,I have to say that my LN is easier to adjust,and the LN was a bit better at a test I put my block planes to,most likely because my particular LN has the 01 blade,which will take a bit keener edge than the A2 blade on the Veritas. I actually prefer the A2 blades,though. They will HOLD an edge longer than the 01.

This may sound confusing. In an instance where I was planing down some sea ray skin leather,to make it exceedingly thin,the sharper 01 blade did a better job,but that is an unusual circumstance that planes are not intended to do. The ray skin was rubbery and tough as blazes. For planing wood though,I choose A2. Those two planes would perform equally with A2 blades. Still,though,the LN was easier to adjust.

[Terry Beadle]

IMO.

New Stanley's are not the way to go. No extra charge. They are just not a good value...yet.

For jack planes, it's hard to beat the performance of Steve Knight's planes. Great steel, easy to maintain, lighter to use, ...I could go on. Price/Performance is really good. I also have a smoother by him that is a great performer. Beautiful Bloodwood too. Great feel in use.

LV and LN make great planes too. But they cost quite a bit more than a good woodie. I have a low angle jack by LN that is a really good plane. With it's adjustable mouth and dead flat sole, one can use this plane to do jack, jointer, and smoother work really well. Especially if you buy extra blades and set angles and back bevels appropriately. A great value and trade off if you don't have much money.

I have several smoothers. The closest thing to a Stanley is a Bedrock 605 set up as Mr. Charlesworth recommends. Works really good but not as good as the LN 5 1/2 w A2/O1 but it is very close with the Hock blade upgrade. So close that I've not replaced it with the more expensive LV/LN.

My best smoothers are Japanese kanna planes and a N T Gordon. Woodies. The Clifton 03 with HSS blade is excellent but will not cut for as long in hickory as the kanna and the kanna is cheaper by 40%.

I have a Primus jack and it is easy to use, easy to maintain, good quality steel but not as good as a Hock blade. My experience is that the German steel is very good quality and needs just a little touch up more often than a HSS such as the Clifton 03 blade.

IMO we live in a great time as consumers. You can buy planes from several manufacturers new or classic pre WW2 ( I like the low knob's ) bedrock or standard and retrofit with Hock or other blades, AND end up with a great plane.

All that being said, the low angle block plane from LN is so good a quality that when you hold it you know you can do good work. There are lots of Stanley block planes and even with a Hock blade will not out perform or give such confidence in quality that one can approach tough stock and do the curly twisted grain as it needs. Buy the best value and quality you can afford...you will only have to do it once and it's easily re-sold or passed on to your children.

[Don Dorn]

the Schwarz writes and has said many times that is no discernible difference in quality or performance when comparing LN to Veritas... many on here will agree... Both companies offer planes the other one does not though...

Count me in agreement. I have three LN bench planes and 3 Veritas BU. They all get good use and frankly, I can't tell the difference in quality between them. Finely adjusted (if you wanted to) , both will give .001 or below performance. It comes down to handling for me. I have two block planes which are LN (Rabbeting and 102). My friend has a Veritas LA block and while it's certainly heavy duty, I like the feel of mine better. I have a Veritas dovetail saw and the same friend has a LN - can't really see a difference here either.

[Gary Curtis]

The ergonomics --- the way your hands grip and control the plane is where there is a difference between Lee Valley and Lee Nielsen. Neither has the advantage. It would depend largely on the size or your hands and whether you are left or right handed.

But on that score, Lee Valley did something remarkable in their shoulder planes only. A few sizes offer grips that adjust from left to right to suit the users. And to accommodate using the tool on its side.

All this makes shopping from a catalogue difficult.

Gary Curtis

[Tony Zaffuto]

LV or LN are great. Another to consider is Clifton, an English bedrock style plane.

As far as a shoulder plane goes, I love my large LN and use it far more than I ever thought--push or pull.

[Bob Easton]

... Old Stanleys, Sargeants, etc. Good workers, but have seen better days. ....

Really??? Box em up and send them to me.

Others praise the newer LV and LN planes, and for very good reason. Yet, I find that the sweetheart era produced tools every bit as good as todays, and that many of them can be brought back to superb working condition.

However, I'm a hobbyist and have time for such refurbishing. If your business doesn't have room for refurbishing time and is cash rich enough to afford the new premium planes, go for em ... and send me your discards.

[Derek Cohen]

...I just got the new "Art Deco" looking Veritas block plane,the all polished model. Though I really like its looks,I have to say that my LN is easier to adjust,...

Hi George

This is one time I take a different view to you. I am very interested to know how you come to this conclusion ...?

I have both these planes and can vouch for their equal performance .... however the Veritas is by far the easier to adjust. I go into this in detail in my review of the Veritas block planes (compared with the LN) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane.html

Here is an extract to make the point:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane_html_67db55fa.jpg

Left to Right: Premium Black, Premium SS, LN #60 ½, Veritas LABP.

Several years ago, when I was looking to purchase a new block plane, I ended up getting the LN. I liked its greater heft in a small plane, but more importantly it was comfortable to hold in my (average-sized) hand. I already had a Stanley #65, a very fine vintage block plane, but its extra width really did not suit me. And this was the reason why I did not consider the Veritas LABP (which has similar dimensions to the #65).

I was (and remain) entirely happy with the performance of the LN. However, when the examination of Premium SS came up, I borrowed a LABP to compare designs. It was eye opening. It must be appreciated that LN continue with the traditions set by the early Stanley version, and what they have done is produce a plane with the charm of the vintage plane, with far, far better materials and finish, but with also some of the foibles of that vintage design. There are few that would disagree that LN has set the bar on high standards for block planes. Examining the LABP made me aware that there were areas that could be improved. The most notable one being the placement of the lever cap adjuster wheel. It was only after using the LABP that I realized that the LN was too far forward for comfortable adjusting. There was too little clearance space for fingers. By contrast, the LABP provided room to spare.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane_html_m1fcfb842.jpg

Above are the LN and Premium together to illustrate this issue.

(end of quote)

The adjustable toe of the Veritas also moves more easily and adjusts more precisely than the LN's. But you will need to read the review to find out about that. :)

Jonathan, while Veritas and LN both make superior quality planes, it is not simply the planemaker you need to consider - it is the type of plane. Do you want a BU or BD, high cutting angle or common, metal or wood ... there are a lot of variable to consider. Have you tried a few of these?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I haven't used my Veritas for a while,but I believe that putting the cap back on was a PITA,because I could not as easily tell where the screw was that I had to hook it onto as with the LN. Now I need to get it down and look at it.( Most of my work lately has been metal work.) I still have no intention of selling the Veritas,though.:) The cool factor is too great!

Maybe "adjust" wasn't the best word? Assemble?

[Josh Rudolph]

A low angle block plane, a Smoothing plane, and a shoulder plane.

Jonathan,

I was in the same predicament as you. I have a #4 that I bought the Hock blade and Chipbreaker for. It is now my go to smoother for most things. (keep in mind, I am just starting to incorporate hand tools into my power tool work like you). For the Block Plane I got the LABU block plane by Veritas strictly due to the fact that I can add a tote and knob and have a second smoother (I believe it is the equivalent of a #3 smoother). I also went ahead and got a 50° blade for the LABU block plane. For Christmas, my wife bought me the medium Veritas Shoulder plane...I love it. Being able to adjust the handle is a great feature.

It appears that I am a LV/Veritas fan, I am. They seem to be a little cheaper to acquire. But I also have the Lie-Nielsen bevel edge socket chisels and think they are great. My buddy bought a LN 4 1/2 smoother at WIA, and it is a sweet plane also.

My Stanley #4, my LABU block and his LN 4 1/2 smooth the wood the exact same. The only plane I prefer over another is my Veritas Shoulder plane. My hand is small and the adjustability of the top knob to fit me is what edged the LN.

Biggest question is how much time and money are you willing to invest?

Good luck with your decision process...you really can't go wrong with the choices that people have laid out for you so far.

[David Weaver]

There is no right answer for planes. You should buy a few and try them and see what you do or don't like about them.

One thing that is a problem, I'd say, because of how much high quality stuff there is out there is that you can be perfectly happy with something until you've read somewhere else that something is better on some other tool.

I have been using a LN 60 1/2 block plane for 4 years. It never occurred to me that it was difficult to adjust. It still doesn't. Some things on some new planes are, in my opinion, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Anyway, my personal recommendation would be to get one LN bench. My choice would be a LN 7, because jointers are fairly hard to flatten. It's a lot of cake to pay for one plane, but it's one you'll appreciate a lot. For low angle, I would buy one LV LA jack, and that's it.

Those two planes will give you a very good indication of what to expect from bevel down and bevel up planes. You can save money and buy vintage planes and teach yourself how to get them to perform like premium planes, or you can continue on buying premium planes.

If you decide you've gotten so proficient at vintage plane fettling that it is a waste of your money to have premium planes, you can recover a very high % of your initial investment selling LN and LV planes to people who want them.

As far as saws go, learn to clean up and file saws. It's another thing you can teach yourself. I haven't seen saws go for better prices in a very long time. I got a Nurse (that's a maker, it doesn't imply that the user is ladylike) dovetail saw yesterday for $44 - that's not a steal by any means, but it was a sunday afternoon, when everyone was watching ebay, too. If it's straight, it'll be as good as anything made now once it's sharpened, which will probably cost about $2 worth of files and about a half hour if it needs some tooth reshaping. I watched a brass groves 14" tenon saw in reasonable shape and three medallions sell for $35 2 minutes later. It had some evidence of age on it, but none where it counts. I personally would limit the new manufacture saws to one or two at first and then if you can't tolerate the vintage saws and attempting to make them nice, maybe buy more. I haven't seen quality vintage saws as cheap for all of us tool pigs in quite a while. Even one of the resellers is unloading 12s left and right for $50-$70, and I doubt a finer saw is made now.

[john brenton]

The EC Emmerich planes with the depth adjuster are great little planes, but they are only worth their money if you're into that kind of thing. You can get older transition planes for a fraction of what they cost. That being said, I do keep a search going for them just in case one shows up for a decent price.

The Ulmia and EC Emmerich wooden planes are great, and their horn handled jack planes are a pleasure to use. They are woodies that you don't mind abusing...it's like they're begging for it. I keep my favorite antique wood smoother for the finishing surface.

Anywho, I wouldn't get the depth adjuster ones though, I'd get the wedge. Those German wedge planes don't have cheeks to hold the wedge, but instead have a plastic piece swiveling on a pin. It doesn't look as attractive, but I like it better. Once you learn how to adjust the iron by tapping the strike button they are just as good as the mechanical ones. .

[Prashun Patel]

I'm with Gary. It's about which one fits yr hand better. You won't go wrong with either.

In general, Veritas planes tend to be a little more economical than LN.

[David Weaver]

The EC Emmerich planes with the depth adjuster are great little planes, but they are only worth their money if you're into that kind of thing. You can get older transition planes for a fraction of what they cost. That being said, I do keep a search going for them just in case one shows up for a decent price.
.

There's a 2" iron mujingfang incantation of the euro horn planes (continental smoothers, what have you) with an HSS iron and an ebony body for $50 (a crazy price - half of what emmerich wants just for an HSS iron). If you have the gear to sharpen HSS (soft waterstones, shapton pros, hard strops with aggressive compound), it is a great plane for someone who dimensions their material by hand to have around. You can set it coarse for smoothing and use it to do most of the cleanup work on almost anything - it's light, slick, tough and stays sharp forever - many multiples of what A2 and O1 do in blunting woods like cocobolo, and also longer in everything else.

If you choose to get anything muji, it would be my suggestion to avoid the guy who sells them from china on the auction site, though. They are available in the US, and that guy gave me a lot of lip service until the paypal contestable period was over and then disappeared with my money after sending only part of my order.

[george wilson]

David,one of my favorite old planes is a Nurse.

[David Weaver]

George, I remember reading somewhere that the nurse saws have fairly thin plates. I don't know if they do or if they don't, and I don't know if I'll ever even use it, but if I'm going to try giving dovetails a try with a saw that you push (I have used dozukis for a long time and gotten along well with them, but it's always bugged me a little that I have to throw out the blades), then I wouldn't want to do it with an old US-made saw with a fat kerf.

I half-heartedly told the wife I was done buying saws after a couple more came last week, so that saw and a #12 panel saw coming in the mail tomorrow are going to temporarily decrease the quality of my home life. Hope they'll be worth it! If I wasn't worried about the trouble I'd get in, I would've gotten the groves saw, too, I just don't have a need for it at all...$35 for one with a decent tote with three medallions, and a brass back, i'm sure the seller wasn't that pleased.

My tool-pigging really pushes my wife's buttons. :o

[john brenton]

Why do you think I'm selling all of mine? I'm tired of her walking in and reminding me that her father could do more with much less, and have decided to get rid of all my old, less used tools and upgrade the tools that I do use. That way, if she sees a new tool (which she does, amazingly...her eyes go immediately to the new one and asks "Oh, when did you get this one?") she'll never know if I spent our money or spent the money I made selling the tools I already had. That's nasty isn't it? Oh well.

Women. You keep em barefoot and pregnant and they're still not happy.




My tool-pigging really pushes my wife's buttons. :o

[george wilson]

THAT isn't too good a situation,John!!!:) Fortunately,my father in law ran a hardware store,and didn't make anything.

[george wilson]

David and all,my wife is a craftsman too. I hardly ever get a hard time about my tool pigging unless it gets into high 4 figures(like a better 16" lathe I don't really need,more like low 5 figures). As far as I'm concerned,I never use household money to buy toys. Just money I earn on the side,so it's my business anyway.

[David Weaver]

That last part is the difference, George (no household money). If I followed that, i'd have no tools :o.

[george wilson]

Can you make some things to sell,David? It is a good way to build up your toy box,or whatever.

[john brenton]

It's not that bad, I'm exaggerating a bit. Her father was a craftsman in the highlands of Peru and did some very nice solid work. He was known as one of the best craftsman in the area when he was alive..but he had a full shop of machines. I think she sees all my hand tools and sees an overabundance.

She loves it though. It's better for me to be in the garage drinking beer and working than be in the bar spending money and birddoggin.


THAT isn't too good a situation,John!!!:) Fortunately,my father in law ran a hardware store,and didn't make anything.

[george wilson]

I don't ever go into bars. Hardly ever take a vacation(unless it's to look at wood,museums,machines,etc.) or generally waste money.

I buy my shirts for $5.00 (how stingy is that????)

The shop is just about where my side money goes,except for helping out a fellow craftsman or 2.

[David Weaver]

Can you make some things to sell,David? It is a good way to build up your toy box,or whatever.

Sure, could, just nothing that would yield much in terms of dollars vs. time, and it would give the insurance company an excuse to deny claims.

I had a buddy who had all of his stuff stolen. The insurance company couldn't believe that someone who wasn't making money with their tools would have such an inventory (he wasn't making money making anything). They tried for a long time to get him to admit that he made money making something so they could get off on paying the claim. Of course, he never did because his tools were like mine - they're there because he wanted to have them, not because he needed money. They thought he was skimping on business coverage, and I guess if I were an adjuster, I would probably think the same thing.

[David Weaver]

I don't ever go into bars. Hardly ever take a vacation(unless it's to look at wood,museums,machines,etc.) or generally waste money.

I buy my shirts for $5.00 (how stingy is that????)

The shop is just about where my side money goes,except for helping out a fellow craftsman or 2.

Ditto all of that except no side money.

[Jonathan Spool]

Some excellent poits made, and I thank you all.
The balance of time and funds is very relevent, as time is my most valued asset nowdays. I would love to re-work the vintage planes I currently own, and even pick up some others, but I don't have the time to be a cleaner and tweaker. I'll never part with the vintage tools I own as they were passed down from family.

That being said, it appears that there will really be no performance difference between LN and LV/V planes. I don't think I'll make the jump to infill planes, although I jones over having a nice Norris smoother someday.

Back when I was a framer, and cordless circular saws didn't exist, I framed with a handsaw rather than drag a saw and extension cord around with me. Fellow workers laughed at me until they saw me go through a 2x4 with a start and 3 strokes, near dead on square. Back then I had a set and file setup, but it was quite intensive going through a few saws a week.
Guess I never got quick at it.

[David Weaver]

That being said, it appears that there will really be no performance difference between LN and LV/V planes. I don't think I'll make the jump to infill planes, although I jones over having a nice Norris smoother someday.


Infill planes are a good thing to build rather than buy, it just takes a little up front study to figure out what parts have to be done well, and what parts can be a little looser (how tidy the aesthetics are, etc).

A bronze LN smoother with a high angle frog does a good job of imitating how well a nice infill works, even if it doesn't quite feel the same (IME, the infill center of gravity, at least on the planes I've built, has been a little higher, or feels that way even if it isn't).

[Jonathan Spool]

http://www.khalafoud.com/media/Brese875-W50.wmv

Now this is a SWEET plane!