Where have all the good tools gone??

[Brandon Weiss]

This is one of those weeks when I've had a lot of time to get on the creek and do a lot of reading. I have to say, most of what i've noticed this week in the General forum are discussions about tools being good or bad. The consensus is that the tools manufactured today are inferior to those made years ago. That raises a question. Where have all the good tools gone? Are there any good tools available, or is it always a crap shoot when you buy a new tool whether you get a lemon or not? I still have some major tools to buy (eventually) for my garage shop. Are there any brands out there that can be counted on hands down? Is "reliable" a word of the past? As it stands, it appears a choice based on price and a roll of the dice are the best options at this point.

[Russell Tribby]

Without getting into a name brand war I think there are some manufacturers that provide consistently excellent results. With that said I think that people that have had an issue with something are far more likely to be vocal about their problems/concerns. Most of the tools I've purchased have been without major issues. It's never really crossed my mind to post about the fact that they have performed just as I expected them to.

[Stephen Cherry]

Take a look at some fine woodworking magazines from the '80s. The prices on hobby machines today is very, very low. Maybe cheaper than 20 years ago.

Is it possible for the quality to be great for giveaway prices?

[Van Huskey]

1. There are some really good tools available, actually quit a lot of the Asian imports are good to excellent, there are a couple of categories I am finding that good ones are difficlut to find... cheap. The QC is somewhat of a roll of the dice and the name on the machine means little in and of itself, you have to buy the machine not the name and sometimes it is best if you can examine the exact machine you are buying

2. One has to keep in mind the prices we pay are FAR less than the inflation adjusted prices of the old iron and a lot of that is remembered through rose colored glasses

3. It all comes down to money, if you can afford it and are willing to afford it you can get extremely nice and exteremely well built new machines but for a full shop worth of machines the economic decision might be between a 3 series BMW and the tools

4. Sometimes what is seen as a large difference between brand pricing for similar machines is really only a marginal price difference in the big picture or full catagory of that particular tool, and we give too much leeway to the marginally lower priced tool and expect perfection in the higher priced tool when the reality is we are looking at Walmart vs Target and not Walmart vs Neiman Marcus.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Van,


I agree with everything you said.

Though I have an income well above the median income, as a hobbiest I could not justify paying Northfield or General (not General International)prices for woodworking tools.

No company would have my business if I had to pay those prices.

It's an unrealistic expectation to believe you can pay Walmart prices and get Neiman Marcus quality. If you could, why would anyone buy Neiman Marcus?

So.....for a much lower cost, you take a chance of having to hassle with a company and it's customer service.

If you don't think it is much cheaper go to Northfield's website and price their tools ....and that online price sheet is 3 years old. You have to call to get the current price.

[glenn bradley]

Van said it better than I could. I am in agreement with what he says. We have done this pretty much to ourselves. We all want higher wages and lower cost goods. You can't cut profit and pay the people who make the stuff more money, just doesn't work. The jobs go where folks work cheap and for a period of time, those that still have jobs get great prices on some stuff. Then the bubble pops.

[Chip Lindley]

...The consensus is that the tools manufactured today are inferior to those made years ago. That raises a question. Where have all the good tools gone? Are there any good tools available, or is it always a crap shoot when you buy a new tool whether you get a lemon or not?

I cannot afford NEW machines. If I only had the option to buy NEW, I would leave woodworking for whittling with the one good Case XX pocket knife I own.

The good machinery is on CL! I can now buy a Rockwell 13" planer for $300 that cost $1500 twenty-five years ago. I bought a PnP Rockwell belt/disc sander for $185, instead of $1200. How about a $2000 Powermatic Model 26 shaper (needed spindle bearings) for $125? Those were HUGE sums in the '80s, and still are to me.

The "CL-Economy" is one I can actually exist in! Today I can buy machinery which needs varying degrees of TLC for pennies on the dollar when new. I enjoy fixing what needs fixing. It is a great trade-off IMO. I get huge discounts on quality machines at the expense of my committment to make them run as they should. It's only time; not much money.

IF I could buy new, Grizzly offers the most for the money IMO. Sharaz stands behind his machines as well or better than other brands. Rikon offers great Bang for the Buck too! But, Powermatic is wayy over-priced today. Mustard is not Gold. Delta continues to sink slowly into the East. Those cannot subsist on their name, and proud heritage, forever! And, how about all those new Rockwell power tools everywhere! (Chinese pronunciation: "Lock-Lell") ROR! Not the same Rockwell I knew! NoWay!

[Ben Martin]

I love my Delta and Powermatic tools!

....they just happen to be 60 years old though... :D

I agree with what Van and Chip said, if you are willing to put the amount of time it takes to remove the cosmoline from a new tool, into a old tool, you can get your self some great quality tools at great prices!

Off to go look at a Delta/Rockwell Bandsaw for $275 off of CL!

[Ron Citerone]

All things considered CL, new hobbyist priced tools etc, I think it's a great time to be a woodworker.:)

My only fear with new and old machines is NEEDING A PART THAT IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE! :eek:

[Myk Rian]

The good tools are at garage and estate sales. I go out every week, and have found some killer deals.

[Larry Edgerton]

The good tools went away with the advent of the big box stores that compete on price point only.
Take for example my long time favorite, Porter Cable. They were a manufacturer of professional grade tools, that were not marketed to homeowners, and came at a premium. I did not mind paying more for the quality as I make a living with my tools.

Then they were swallowed up by the B&D conglomerate who saw it as an opportunity to use the well established Porter Cable name to [temporarily] market and sell junk taking advantage of the good name. I am sure it worked welll for a while, but the Porter Cable name is no longer associated with superior quality, its just another brand basterdized by the big box mentality.

I just bought a Lion Trimmer from a gentleman on this forum. This is another example of how cheap imports, that may not be at all of the same quality run a good tool manufacturer out of business. They take enough off of the top of the market that the non third world manufacturer can no longer sell enough to stay in business as they have to meet modern safety standards, and pay their employees a living wage.

Myself I choose to buy from companys that pay their employees in a manner consistant with what I would consider a living wage, and supply a workplace that is safe and enviromentally responsible. There is nothing that I need bad enough that I feel I should support these companys that scrape the bottom of the barrel at a humanitarian level.

Larry

[Will Overton]

I'm not convinced that old tools are so much better than new ones. If they were, they would be selling at a premium, even if they needed some work.

I have no brand loyalty having Delta, Grizzly, Powermatic, Craftsman, Sawstop, Bosch, Steel City, Festool and probably a few others in the shop. The only problem I've had with any of them is shipping damage. Once replaced/repaired they all do what they are expected to do.

As mentioned above, Porter Cable is no longer a top notch brand. That's true. In that corporate line up, Delta and Dewalt are the top brands. That was done to gradually avoid exact duplication and be able to reach a wider customer base. Smart move.

I've noticed since I started reading woodworking forums around 5 years ago (I retired and have the time) that there are some folks who have a problem with almost every tool they buy. They will only be happy if someone comes to their house and holds their hands. I think that most people are pretty happy with the tools they buy, but don't post about it.

"Hey - I bought a saw, it cuts wood", isn't exciting reading. :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Good tools and machinery haven't dissapeared, they're still available new from many suppliers.

You can buy General and Northfield as mentioned, I believe Pistorius is still made in New York State, there's Felder, MiniMax, Hammer, SCM etc.

What has disappeared is our understanding of what those machines cost to produce.

Engineering, manufacturing, quality control, field service, spare parts support all cost money, as does manufacturing an object where there are other costs such as environmental protection, labour standards, social services etc.

As others have mentioned, machines from the 1960's cost significant amounts of annual income to purchase, and people didn't often purchase that sort of machinery.

I remember seeing circular and jig saws powered by a drill so that you didn't have to buy more than one motor. Now we laugh at that as we buy a pair of left and right hand circular saws in a nice case for a few hours wage.

The nice machinery still exists, in fact it's nicer than ever, more capable, more versatile, more accurate and less expensive than ever in relation to our wages. It just happens to be made in Europe at present, where they've constantly been innovating, instead of producing another colour copy of a 1930 table saw.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. This is the golden age of hand tools, incredible quality tools that are far less expensive than good hand tools were in relation to our income, and many of them are Canadian and American made.

[Bill Huber]

I agree with everyone, we have done it to our self.

I hate Walmart, but go to any any Walmart on a Saturday morning and find a parking place.

Everyone wants is now and they want it cheap, they can not wait for a shipper to ship the item to them, they want it get it today. That is why the big box stores do so good.

[Joe Jensen]

MOST consumers shop price first. Companies who want to survive need to sell what consumers want. High quality tools are available as others have said, just not at the price points most can afford. I won't buy the brands I used to. I started this hobby as a kid over 30 years ago and I started setting up my own shop 25 years ago. Most of my hand held power tools are old school Porter Cable. I paid $280 for a Porter Cable 536 commercial grade 1 2/3rd HP router in the late 80s. That would be over $500 today with inflation. Makes the $480 Festool router price rational. I paid like $200 for a Porter Cable circular saw 20 years or so ago. Very solid saw. That would be $400 or so now.

I now have a bunch of new Festool. Easily as good or better than the Porter Cable from 20 years ago. I also have a Milwaukee Reciprocating saw, great tool. I recently upgraded to a Felder sliding saw and it's in a whole different universe than the PM66 it replaced.

[Ben Martin]

I love my Delta and Powermatic tools!

....they just happen to be 60 years old though... :D

I agree with what Van and Chip said, if you are willing to put the amount of time it takes to remove the cosmoline from a new tool, into a old tool, you can get your self some great quality tools at great prices!

Off to go look at a Delta/Rockwell Bandsaw for $275 off of CL!

Yeah, there aren't any good deals out there anymore...

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp325/martbj/1948%20Delta%2028-205%20Band%20Saw/702570717_photobucket_1997_.jpg

I had to take it apart, because there is a crack in the CI base and it would have been ridiculously heavy otherwise. Besides that it is plug and play condition. Pretty amazing for a 60 year old tool. Once again proving that old and used /= lots of work!

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I'm not sure one can say that old stuff is superior without considering design innovation of late. Quality includes design. Many new tools offer improved design...

Sawstop technology
Improved dust collection
Easier accessibility to change blades, belts, etc.
Cutterhead configurations
More compact and mobile


Also, the overwhelming majority of old tools I see today were sold as industrial quality back then. I never saw any folks in my parent's neighborhood 40 years ago have any of this stuff in their garage. And, these folks use to fix and build everything themselves.

Today as a hobbyist, you can buy a 15" stationary planer with helical knives. If you're on a tight budget, those small stationary planers pack huge performance for the buck. Years ago, you would have had to break out the old Stanley hand plane and use some skill and spend time.

And why would one feel they need the quality of a huge 24" 50 year old Powermatic planer in their garage to make bookshelves on the weekend? The 'superior quality' of these machines is under utilized and irrelevant. They are a bargain if you got them very cheap and have the room, but that's how Walmart began.

Jeff :)

[John Coloccia]

If you don't think it is much cheaper go to Northfield's website and price their tools ....and that online price sheet is 3 years old. You have to call to get the current price.

Like $11,000 for their 8" jointer. No, that's not a typo.

[Dan Karachio]

Interesting. I always use new tools as an example of the quality, engineering and design that is so often missing in other areas. For example, Lie Nielsen, Veritas and Festool. All pricey, yes, but I don't think anybody can deny that each, in their own way, have taken lessons from the past and applied them into new tools that will pass the test of time themselves. There are other more specialized small companies making great stuff too. In big power tools, the new Unisaw is made (assembled) in the US and seems to be of great quality and design. SawStop? I'm not sure if a 30 year old one will still have it's safety feature in tact, but I have used one and that was one great saw. Meanwhile many of the big iron from Grizzly seems built to last two - saws and jointers.

I have noticed what the OP is talking about. However, I will add that a lot of the issues here are less related to design and engineering and more related to poor QA and lousy customer service.

[Mike Henderson]

I guess you can look at the glass as half empty or half full. I tend to see the glass as half full. The tools we have today offer much more than the tools of the past. And at reasonable prices. It would be sad indeed if the generations of designers and engineers who worked on improving tools for the past 20 to 40 years had not been able to improve on what had been done before.

One of the major improvements I recognize is the use of technology to make our tools safer and more accurate. SawStop is a big one, but variable speed, and soft start, on tools are another. The Domino, which is a portable slot mortiser, is another major improvement. Essentially every tool we have today is better than the tool of the past, when you look at a dollar for dollar comparison (what $100 will buy today verses what $100 would buy 40 years ago)

In my opinion, the only reason people think old tools are better is that they're buying an industrial tool for pennies on the dollar because the industrial people have moved on to more advanced tools, such as CNC controlled tools.

No, as far as woodworking tools are concerned, we live in the best of times.

Mike

[Mike Heidrick]

There are great tools out there. You just need to set your sights slightly higher than average high end hobby tools and budget. Some you will buy used if you want them at high end hobby tool pricing. Try and focus in on the 1-2 man sized commercial shop level of tools and you will be very amazed at the quality levels. Target the areas in the country where there are many of theose shops are growing or are shutting down for avaialable tools and deals. Also hit up companies during trade show times of the year to get demo machines.

I have not thought this through 100% but I am not aware of any machine with a 5hp induction motor that is junk I do not think. Really no tool with a 3hp or 5hp Leeson, Marathon, Baldor, or WEG has been bad. Also I do not think I have seen any junk tools from Austria, Germany, Italy, or Bulgaria. Again all this just off the cuff, my opinion, it may be wrong, but this has serverd me well when buying my tools. One at a time thay have all been replaced with crazy nice industrial ones and I do not regret being patient till I find and can afford one. My rules: know the value of tools you want, save your tool money until you have a fist full of cash, commit to the sale, and be ready to drive with the capacity to haul iron when you find it - do this you will have a dream shop to the extreme.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Like $11,000 for their 8" jointer. No, that's not a typo.

That's also at the lower end without options. IIRC...you can go upwards of $13,000 for their 8" jointer.

Even with a MM-16, Oneida DC ...all the tools in my shop including my PM3520B, a General International mortiser, table saw, disc/oscillating spindle sander, jointer...I am still not into it $11,000.

I am a hobbiest. I do woodworking for fun. The day it becomes a chore, I will sell my house with my shop and move on.

There is no way I could reasonably justify spending the amount of money required to outfit my shop for a hobby if I had to pay the prices you'd have to pay for Northfield, General or any other high end equipment. I cannot justify it.

I have installed and repaired equipment for the US Navy and two major corporations for the last 41 years. Don't even suggest I buy used and refurbish it. I want to get away from that. I want to woodwork now, not spend 3 months refurbishing a machine. You want to buy used and overhaul it...fine. I don't.,

[Jeffrey Makiel]

No, as far as woodworking tools are concerned, we live in the best of times.

Mike...I fully agree. I think we are at the apex of woodworking equipment. Affordability in a wide range of equipment choices available, and a lot of innovation in the design of large machinery...to portable tools...to jigs & fixtures.

I think this is because the age group that enjoys woodworking is more senior and has a lot of buying power to influence the industry. Unfortunately, I see this to also be the downfall someday along with other hobbies that required hand skills.

Jeff :)

[Don Jarvie]

New power hand tools are worlds apart from there predicessors. 30 years ago there wasn't a hand held electric impact drill. The innovation in this field has come along way.

As for stationary tools the technology hasn't changed much. A Sawstop and Old Unisaw from the 40's are basically the same tool in so far as how they function. Yes the Sawstop has the braking technology but the blade still goes up and down and tilts same as the Unisaw. You can put splitters and blade guards on the Unisaw.

The issue then becomes how much can you afford. As Chip stated I can buy a used cabinet saw for the same price as a new Bosch 4000. I'll take the cabinet saw everyday because I can get much more bang for my limited buck.

[Will Overton]

Don,

I've often wondered, and realize that each tool is different, if the time spent looking for and repairing/restoring old tools was spent earning money, couldn't more folks be buying new tools.

[Don Jarvie]

I guess it could Will but have much of the extra money would you get?

Speaking for myself, any extra money is going into the household. We live pretty good but there is no tool budget and any tools greater and $100.00 has to be a need to make something.

Here's an example. over the summer I was in Rockler and they has a Digital Master Lift on sale for 85 bucks on clearence. I grabbed it because 85 bucks is justifiable. I wouldn't even consider buying it new since I can justify 350 or so for a hobby when there are other needs in the household.

Don't get me wrong, the CFO is very resonable but we only have so much extra and I have to pick my spots.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Buying "brands" is potentially a big mistake. Some examples:

1. I bought a shop full of RIDGID tools when HD clearanced them out a year or two ago. Some of them are excellent (TS3660, R4330 planer), some are average-ish (DP1550 Drill Press, JP601 jointer) while others are garbage (BS1400 bandsaw). I got the excellent table saw first, and followed suit as the prices dropped on the others. Only the planer has been as good as the table saw.

2. Dodge Dakota truck. Shining example of why Chrysler went bankrupt. Atrocious suspension, interiors and engines. Dodge RAM truck (09+). Wonderful vehicle, more like a luxury car than a truck. You would not believe they were made by the same firm.

3. Delta 10" RAS. Craftsman 10" RAS. Buy the Delta, right? Even if it's double the cost? Yep. Only to find it has the exact same motor in it...

4. Bosch Router, the bee's knees. Exactly the same router with red plastic and a Craftsman label - "terrible, don't ever buy Crapsman".

5. DeWalt 18V drill - absolutely fabulous, had it for 6 years, batteries still as good as new, a great tool. B&D drill almost the same, but 24V. Utterly, utterly useless. Heavy, no battery life at all, consigned to the garage where it never gets used.

Moral of the story to me is do not buy brands, buy tools. Start by looking at brands that have done well for you in the past, but don't be blinkered. Be aware of the incestuous relationships. I hear "Why doesn't RIDGID release a tool to compete with the Milwaukee XYZ?". The answer is that they are owned by the same company and target different market segments. They never will launch a tool to take market share from one of their own brands.