Arkansas v. Japan

[michael case]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong (again), but I'm giving up on my natural Arkansas stones. Maybe the stones have changed in quality. I seem to remember years ago having a white hard Arkansas that had a very fine grain and an almost marble-like translucence. The one I bought a year ago seems much coarser and is completely opaque. It also drinks up oil in way I never remember my old stone doing. I also can't get it to sharpen worth a darn. Today I went to touch up a planing iron and just could not get it to wake up. I was about to put it on my Tormek when I decided that since I was going to have to make a wet mess anyway I might as well try the waterstones I have. Four strokes on a King 4000 brought if back to life immediately. A few more on a 6000 and I could shave hair off my arm. Heck if I know what I'm doing. So I figured I would cross over from machine woodworking world and ask you folks in Neanderthal haven for opinions.

[Jim Koepke]

My thought is that there are a lot of stones come from Arkansas. Some work well, some don't.

A set of mine from Woodcraft left me wondering how to get things sharp.
A piece I bought at a gem and mineral show has me, as predicted, kicking myself for not buying more when the opportunity was there. It cost a whole buck and has really changed my feeling about oil stones.

It is a bit translucent compared to most of my other oil stones. It cuts pretty fast like a water stone and it can get a blade sharp enough to shave. The real advantage is it is hard and doesn't seem to be wearing like my water stones.

Funny thing is, the people selling it didn't know what it was. They knew it was from Arkansas, one of them said it was a kind of flint and one person recognized the word novaculite as being what the person that sold it to them called it. The person who said she thought it was a flint did say people sometimes use it to sharpen knives.

Novaculite is a type of flint. My knowledge of it has increased since that day. i know not much about gems and minerals, that is my wife's thing. But I think I will look a bit more carefully in those bins of cut stone in the displays from now on.

jtk

[Klaus Kretschmar]

I´m with Jim. On all natural stones there are differences, one can´t expect the same quality on all stones.

I´ve got a 10 years old translucent Arkansas and wouldn´t change it against the best water stone. To my eyes the Arkansas is not only honing a edge perfectly after sharpening on the Tormek, it´s also a very handy bench stone which makes sure that my chisels are always sharp. A few strokes on the Arkansas before every using of the chisel and it´s done. Another advantage of the Arkansas is, that it is holding it´s flatness way longer than every water stone I tried. And you haven´t to struggle with water on the bench.

Klaus

[David Weaver]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong (again), but I'm giving up on my natural Arkansas stones. Maybe the stones have changed in quality. I seem to remember years ago having a white hard Arkansas that had a very fine grain and an almost marble-like translucence. The one I bought a year ago seems much coarser and is completely opaque. It also drinks up oil in way I never remember my old stone doing. I also can't get it to sharpen worth a darn. Today I went to touch up a planing iron and just could not get it to wake up. I was about to put it on my Tormek when I decided that since I was going to have to make a wet mess anyway I might as well try the waterstones I have. Four strokes on a King 4000 brought if back to life immediately. A few more on a 6000 and I could shave hair off my arm. Heck if I know what I'm doing. So I figured I would cross over from machine woodworking world and ask you folks in Neanderthal haven for opinions.

If you like the hardness of arkansas stones, you might like shaptons. Try them sometime in person if you get the chance, but if you only generally keep one set of stones around, get the shapton pros and not the glasstones. In my experience, the glasstones cut high carbon steel like a file (really fast), but they don't cut high speed steels well at all. The pros do better with the tougher alloys. Don't know why, but tried both side by side and that was the result.

I have all kinds of waterstones, and find them to be better performers than arkansas stones, more consistent and a faster cut for the fineness. I also have four huge arkansas stones, including a 12x3x1 halls surgical black (I would say subjectively after that stone, an iron feels about as sharp as a 4k stone would make it and it will shave hair, just not as effortless as a very sharp iron does). They are nice to use, especially for carving tools, but I'm afraid if someone is being honest, the shapton professionals are better than them in every way except size and perhaps stiction. With a 1 micron shapton, you can pretty much ignore wire edges after you sharpen, so no stropping is necessary. You can also use the stone the same way as a strop - for quick touch-ups.

I have a bunch of natural waterstones, too, probably 10, maybe more, but 6 of them are "good" ones. I would avoid them unless you're looking to spend money or really want the traditional look on japanese tools. They are interesting to play with, though, because they reward knowledge of each particular stone and how it responds to less slurry, more slurry, less water, more water, allowing the surface to dry to really keen the edge, etc. But they are not necessary and decent ones are very expensive.

Or don't do anything at all and continue to use your kings, and if you're looking for extra sharpness, add a piece of MDF loaded with honing compound.

[michael case]

Jim, Klaus, David,

Thanks very much for the input. Part my reason for looking for more educated opinions was find the courage to face facts admit I wasted a fair amount of money on stones that just don't work like the old ones. I bought not to bring new blades up to snuff, but as bench stones as Klaus uses them. Thought it would be great to have nice stone that stayed flat to touch up the edge while working. Like David I also have a surgical black and the exact same experience - with a lot off work it gets to something like, but not quite to a 4000. I've heard it said that almost all the good stone was quarried long ago. Or maybe I should try a different brand oil stone or the Shaptons. Again Thanks to all for the great advice

[Joel Moskowitz]

modern arkansas stones are cut with diamond saws and consequently when new can be coarser than you might like. However with a little use they smooth out very nicely. However from your description of a stone that absorbs a lot of oil I think that what you have is a coarser stone. While a top line arkansas stone will absorb some oil they are largely impermeable.
I don't think the issue is that excellent arkansas stones don't exist but you might want to complain to whoever you bought it from. rating vary from maker to maker. Also sometimes ever with a reputable maker bad stuff sneaks it. Stuff like this happens and if the retailer understands what they should be selling the stone will be replaced.

[michael case]

Jim, Klaus, David,

Thanks very much for the input. Part of my reason for looking for more educated opinions was to find the courage to face facts and admit I wasted a fair amount of money on stones that just don't work like the old ones. I bought them, not to bring new blades up to snuff, but as bench stones as Klaus uses them. I thought it would be great to have a nice stone that stayed flat to in order to touch up edges while working. Like David, I also have a surgical black and the exact same experience - with a lot of work it gets to something like, but not quite to a 4000. I've heard it said that almost all to good stones were quarried long ago. Maybe I should try a different brand of oil stones or the Shaptons. Who knows? maybe I'll come across a gem like Jim did. Again, Thanks to all for the great advice

[David Weaver]

There's no shortage of novaculite, with maybe the exception of the good large all-white hard translucent stones. I think the perception that all of the good stones being gone is partly due to people comparing a new stone to one that's had its keen-ness knocked off of it from years of use and a buildup of oil and swarf on the surface. That's just an opinion, though. I've used old and new oilstones, but I don't think I've used any poor quality oilstones. I have not used a lot of hard trans stones, and to the extent that a hard trans is in short enough supply that the older ones really are better, maybe then that could be true?

If there were a huge difference in the stones themselves, I'm guessing that it would be pretty easy to find that the particles in the newer stones are generally larger than the older by an appreciable amount, and I've never seen that mentioned.

I've also seen Warren Mickley mention not wanting to dress his hard stones vigorously because it's taken him a long time to get them where he wants them, and he'd hate to give up the fine cutting (greatly paraphrased) - he was discussing a stone that wasn't new in the last couple of years, IIRC, so that lends some credibility to the discussion that a large part of the equation is conditioning the stone itself with use and care.

The trick is getting someone else to use a stone for several years, keep it flat and break it in nicely and then have them just give it back to you. Good luck there!

As far as spending money on stones you don't favor, it happens. You can always sell the ones you don't like if you're sure you don't like them or need them (i'd still keep the arkys around for carving tools). No use worrying about spending a buck on something unfavorable, it'll happen again on something else.

[Rob Lee]

modern arkansas stones are cut with diamond saws and consequently when new can be coarser than you might like. However with a little use they smooth out very nicely. However from your description of a stone that absorbs a lot of oil I think that what you have is a coarser stone. While a top line arkansas stone will absorb some oil they are largely impermeable.
I don't think the issue is that excellent arkansas stones don't exist but you might want to complain to whoever you bought it from. rating vary from maker to maker. Also sometimes ever with a reputable maker bad stuff sneaks it. Stuff like this happens and if the retailer understands what they should be selling the stone will be replaced.

Hi Joel -

Yes - they're cut with diamond saws now....but for many years they quarried by blasting, assuming the mountain would never run out. I remember 30 years ago when we sold tons (literally!) of Hiram A. Smith stones... Washita, Soft Arkansas, White Arkansas, and Hard Black Arkansas... all quarried from the same mountain. I beleive it was Norton that had an operation on the other side, and quarried a more translucent greyish-white stone.

Eventually - the Washita disappeared, and the other grades increased in variability (and price)....

Alway thought the had one of the most memorable addresses too.... Sleepy Valley Road, Hot Springs, Arkansas....

I must gettin' old.....:eek:

Cheers -

Rob

[george wilson]

A good white ceramic stone by Spyderco will cut better than an Arkansas,and leave a polished,very keen cutting edge,Klaus. I KNOW that white Arkansas is a LOT softer than ceramic. I took some broken white Arkansas slip stones,and EASILY ground them into different,unavailable shapes on my blue zirconia grinding belts. NOT SO when trying to grind ceramic! It's just as hard as the zirconia belts!!

I use a diamond stone,then black,then white ceramic stone,then a bit of stropping. I had the museum money to try every stone out there for years. I even tried the Japanese stones. This is what I've settled upon,and like it better than any other set up.

Someone on another forum mentioned that for a round slipstone,take the ceramic rod out of sodium lights. I guess they meant the lights used in parking lots at night? Just a tip someone might find useful. I'd advise generally keeping an eye out for white ceramic parts used in any number of electrical things.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)
Someone on another forum mentioned that for a round slipstone,take the ceramic rod out of sodium lights. I guess they meant the lights used in parking lots at night? (snip)


Hi George -

While I'm all for getting what you can for free - I'd hate to see someone that doesn't know the difference between Sodium and Mercury vapour bulbs cracking 'em open to find a hone....:eek::eek:

Cheers -

Rob
(who dumpster dives on occasion too... particulaly at the machine shop...)

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Ceramic stone by Spyderco? I´ve to admit that I never heard something about that, George. If you recommend it that high, I should look for and give it a try.

Klaus

[george wilson]

I think Woodcraft Supply is now selling them,Klaus. If you don't want to go to the trouble of flattening the white stone,get the ultra fine.

The ultra is the same stone as the white,it has apparently just been flattened. When I bought my White stone,I flattened mine by scrubbing it against a diamond stone under the sink faucet. They are reported to always be a bit hollow.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I've used the ceramic rod out of a lamp for years George and it works really well on my carving gouges. I have no idea what kind of lamp it came from because it was a gift from one of our members here who is in the lighting business. He had a bunch of the rods that I think were factory rejects from the manufacturing process.

[Ed Harrison]

I use the Norton wide lily white washita, black arkansas and translucent arkansas (not all at the same time). The washita was sold for a while by Joel at TFWW but seems to be no longer available. On all three, the key is to dress them each time before use with a diamond plate. That keeps them flat and makes them cut/hone/polish a lot faster. It only takes a second to do. If it gets better than the washita as an all purpose stone from going from the grinder to the ability to shave hair, I don't want to know about it. But note that all stones labelled "washita" are not created equal. I don't know what the ones sold by Woodcraft and labelled as such are, but they're not the same as what I have. Good luck, EH

[Joel Moskowitz]

Hi Joel -

Yes - they're cut with diamond saws now....but for many years they quarried by blasting, assuming the mountain would never run out. I remember 30 years ago when we sold tons (literally!) of Hiram A. Smith stones... Washita, Soft Arkansas, White Arkansas, and Hard Black Arkansas... all quarried from the same mountain. I beleive it was Norton that had an operation on the other side, and quarried a more translucent greyish-white stone.

Eventually - the Washita disappeared, and the other grades increased in variability (and price)....

Alway thought the had one of the most memorable addresses too.... Sleepy Valley Road, Hot Springs, Arkansas....

I must gettin' old.....:eek:

Cheers -

Rob

Rob - they still quarry by blasting - Black power not TNT - a slower explosive or so I am told. In any case In 30 years I have yet to see a Smith stone that I would consider top grade and they really smeared the reputation of what an oilstone can do (YMMV). THeir quarries might have run out but nobody else's have. Norton stones have always been and still are better and Dans whetstone is excellent and people speak highly of Halls too.

Norton however owns most of the noviculate resources in Arkansas by a factor of several times. They have plenty of top great rock, but as the market has gotten smaller they have been reluctant to quarry it. But whatever they do quarry is very carefully graded.

Arkansas stones are graded by the industry by specific gravity. Color has little to do with it. Top grades stones are always very dense and therefore don't absorb much oil. The lily white being an exception but it's a washita stone. Norton has tons of lily white sitting in the ground but they don't feel right now they can a trip to the specific quarry, moving the mining machinery there, is justified by the volume of sales. After all we were essentially the only customer and we are a pretty small company.

[David Weaver]

After all we were essentially the only customer and we are a pretty small company.

The more alloys change and the harder steel gets in tools, we will probably drop off, too - except for the people using only vintage tools and refusing to allow themselves to believe that anything could be better than something introduced past 1850.

Especially as synthetic abrasives that are basically superior (cut faster and finer and more consistently) become more common and cheaper.

I like the norton stones that I have, the two stones I got from a small indepndent mine who calls themselves natural whetstone (they were very inexpensive at about $25 each for 10x3x1 hard and soft arky stones that were dead flat with a box) and the large halls stones. I think they (they being just the brands I've put my hands on) are all good quality, but I wouldn't stick my neck out and say I'd get a fine stone from someone who I haven't tried. Never tried dans or smiths. Don't know anything about smiths, and dan's prices on bigger bench stones are in outer space for reasons I'm not familiar with.

The halls stones can be gotten for barely over half of their retail if one looks around - the 12x3x1 surgical black was than $100 shipped, though halls lists it for $180 or so. The halls surgical black came with a very slick smooth surface, but it's not exactly flat, and has required some work - surprisingly - the kind of thing I expected on the $25 stones, but they were great.

One thing I don't like about nortons is that a couple of the slips and other formed stones I've gotten lately (fine and medium india) are made in mexico, and their profiles and finish level have left a bit to be desired. The abrasive itself is fine, I don't think anyone can really screw up aluminum oxide, but having to clean up a new stone to get burrs and such off of it is unwarranted, and the profile on the conical hone is so wide and flat that it's worthless on tools that don't have a really wide radius. Can they be reprofiled on a belt sander with an old belt that maybe you dont' care so much if it gets ruined? No harm in trying, I guess.

I can't remember where my Norton HTA multiform slip was made - I think US, but I still haven't broken it in (it's still relatively fresh and coarse) because it seems a leather profiled wheel on a mandrel in the lathe is 10 times as fast and leaves a better edge, anyway, and with care doesn't threaten the geometry of carving tools (without care, it presents plenty of threats that stones don't introduce).

I'm going to guess those problems don't exist on norton bench stones - the older norton bench stones I have are very nice.

[Rob Lee]

Joel -

While different firms grade and market the novaculite in different ways (color being one, and specific gravity being another) a lot depended on the variability of the raw material. It was certainly easier to refer to a color, or description, when conveying "fineness" to a customer... nothing wrong with that. Description of stones by color was the norm.

Blasting certainly doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for quarrying something as valuable as high grade novaculite... especially when compared to something as inexpensive as granite. Then too - from a manufacturing standpoint - a regular shaped raw material is a heck of a lot easier to process - and gives waaay better yields. Blasting doesn't just remove the stone - it fractures the strata. My point is - a lot of high grade stone was wasted...

Cheers -

Rob

[george wilson]

As David mentioned,newer alloys can be harder. I made a Bowie knife from D2 steel years ago. I could not get it QUITE razor sharp with any of the stones I then had. When I got a ceramic stone,it sharpened razor sharp.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Rob,
most companies do refer to their own grades by color, but between companies the colors don't always match up.

You are probably right that bringing a couple of diamond saws to the quarry would improve yield over black powder, but right now Norton certainly doesn't have any interest in investing anything in their stone production. I don't know how other companies quarry the stones. The raw stone apparently is very fragile and even if you have a huge chunk there is an excellent chance that it will be filled with internal flaws which will preclude cutting regular large stones.

[michael case]

Joel and others,

I think your right. I got an inferior stone. This is the second one. The first was so warped it would not sit flat on the bench and rocked back and forth. I complained about this unusable stone and got a second shipped. This stone was fairly flat, but you know the rest - won't sharpen. And it sucks up oil like no tomorrow, which as you indicate means its far too coarse. Yes, it is behaving like Washita not the "hard white" fine stone it was sold as. I won't get nasty and name the maker. After all with a natural product who knows. But it was one of the makers mentioned in this thread. Well, I certainly came to the right place for informed opinions. I never heard of the ceramic Spyderco stones until now.

Thanks to everybody for for some really great posts

[george wilson]

Michael,I see you are new,so must have missed the INTENSE,HEATED,and NEVER ENDING debates about what to sharpen with that have gone on here!!! Some think I am FOS ,using the ceramic stones. Others have adopted them,and have been happy.

I tried waterstones years ago. They wear fast,and my chisels got a tiny bit rusty in spite of wiping them off.

I do use a LITTLE water in the ceramics,with a few drops of dish detergent in it,and a dash of water soluble cutting oil,if I have it.

The small amount of water doesn't get my tools rusty. DO wipe the ceramics and diamond stones off,or you will find them covered with rust next time you use them.

[Fred Krow]

I have been using mineral oil on my diamond and ceramic stones for many years,,,,, no nasty rust gunk residue.

Regards,
FK

[george wilson]

No reason why it wouldn't work with oil. I got my formula from my friend,the late World class gun engraver lynton McKenzie. Google him and you might see some amazing work.

[David Weaver]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c335/baerzo/MacKenziepic.jpg

:eek:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c335/baerzo/Lynton_McKenzie_DTs_22.jpg

[george wilson]

Thanks,David. The picture of Lynton is an old one. When I knew him,his face was quite round from taking prednisone (sp?) all the time. I didn't ask him why. Personally,I can't stay on the stuff. It affects me badly.

My journeyman Jon was able to take a master class with him.

[David Weaver]

http://www.sitemason.com/files/ks8pQ4/VMP3bxl.jpg

http://www.rickgenoveseknives.com/Rick_Knife_Solid_Gold_files/shapeimage_4.jpg

Hammer and chisel by hand...amazing.

[Jon Toebbe]

The ultra is the same stone as the white,it has apparently just been flattened. When I bought my White stone,I flattened mine by scrubbing it against a diamond stone under the sink faucet. They are reported to always be a bit hollow.
This. I'm a graduate student at Colorado School of Mines, just down the road from the Spyderco factory. Their factory store is staffed by friendly, knowledgeable people not 100 ft from the shop where they lap the "ultra fine" stones.

The ceramic is fired locally, and (according to Sal Glesser, who happened to be walking by when I asked) has a tendency to warp slightly in the firing/annealing process. They had a whole box of medium/coarse brown stones just in from the kiln that they let me sort through to find a flat one. I brought a straightedge along for just that reason.

The fine white stones are sold "as fired" (and some are dead flat, while others vary a bit). The ultra-fine white stones start out as fine white stones until they're lapped to IIRC 0.005" over the length. Needless to say, I picked through the box of fine white stones to find a winner.

Woodworkers are a good bit more picky about stone flatness than knife knuts or chefs, evidently. :) The first salesmen I talked to thought I was nuts for bringing back a brown stone that was too far out of flat to be worth working over with a diamond plate.

[David Weaver]

Woodworkers are a good bit more picky about stone flatness than knife knuts or chefs, evidently. :) The first salesmen I talked to thought I was nuts for bringing back a brown stone that was too far out of flat to be worth working over with a diamond plate.

You're right about knives and flatness. There's only one bevel on the stone and no alternate flat back except on some things like a deba, which I doubt many people use, anyway.

I think spyderco stones would be more popular if they made wider stones that woodworkers are used to now. I don't have any sypderco bench stones, just a couple of small pocket stones, but they leave a very fine edge vs. what they say the grit is. They cut rubbery knife stainless well, too.

The salesman probably thought you were nuts because he's a knife sharpener, and probably so is the vast majority of their customers - more than 10 to 1, I'd bet.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...
The fine white stones are sold "as fired" (and some are dead flat, while others vary a bit). The ultra-fine white stones start out as fine white stones until they're lapped to IIRC 0.005" over the length. Needless to say, I picked through the box of fine white stones to find a winner. ...

I don't get this, unless there's no wear at all when sharpening. How does dressing the surface make the underlying ceramic ultra fine?

Pam

[george wilson]

There is no detectable wear on mine after quite a few years. When I got mine,the "black" stone was fine. The white stone had some ceramic "fuzz" on it that I knew would never go away,but would mess up my tools. I took a diamond stone and rubbed it against the white stone under the faucet till it was very smooth and flat all over.

I did get it smoother than the stone had been after firing. The stones are just so hard,they stay the way they are,from the kiln,or from smoothing.

I also have a set of ceramic slip stones,which I highly recommend. Keeping the inside tip of a "V" carving tool from getting a little radius in it while touching up the inside and getting the burr off of is much better with a triangular ceramic stone that doesn't wear like the corners of a white Arkansas can. Arkansas stones are MUCH softer than the ceramic stones.

[Adam Cherubini]

Interesting that the stones are blamed for this. Rob and Joel are all going along.. Interesting. Let me tell you brother, what they feel they cannot. The problem is user error.

Michael, all the basic sharpening stones are essentially made from the same stuff (aluminum oxide). You choose which stone best based on the hardness of the matrix. Select based on the style of sharpening you do. I hone freehand, hone a lot of curves, and I use convex bevels. For this sort of work, I need a stone with a hard matrix. So arks, Spyderco, etc will work best for me.

If you want to work wide flat surfaces, your contact pressures will be lower and you'll need a fast cutting (friable) stone to do this so choose a water stone.

If you find your whetstone is drinking in oil, you are using the wrong oil. Choose an oil that will lay on the surface of your stone for a little while. If you feel it is so heavy, you are gliding on a film of oil, the oil IS too heavy.

Don't throw away your stones. Use them to their advantage.

Adam

[Pam Niedermayer]

There is no detectable wear on mine after quite a few years. When I got mine,the "black" stone was fine. The white stone had some ceramic "fuzz" on it that I knew would never go away,but would mess up my tools. I took a diamond stone and rubbed it against the white stone under the faucet till it was very smooth and flat all over.

I did get it smoother than the stone had been after firing. The stones are just so hard,they stay the way they are,from the kiln,or from smoothing.

I also have a set of ceramic slip stones,which I highly recommend. Keeping the inside tip of a "V" carving tool from getting a little radius in it while touching up the inside and getting the burr off of is much better with a triangular ceramic stone that doesn't wear like the corners of a white Arkansas can. Arkansas stones are MUCH softer than the ceramic stones.

I see, thanks. Slip stones sound like a good way to introduce oneself to ceramics; although I'm a little intimated by a "stone" that's harder than Arkansas, which I hate for their hardness. Tried using a black about 30 years ago, to no effect, so hard the edges moved around it too easily. One nice thing about natural waterstones, and unnatural for that matter, is it's obvious the effect a little effort has on both edge and stone.

Pam

[Johnny Kleso]

I have some info on My Website> Sharpening> Bench Stones
It really needs updating but has some good pics of stone types and some reading..

I use most every type of bench stone like Diamonds mostly for flattening stones, Crystalon, India Stones, Arkansas Stone and Japanese for final polishing as they come much finer than other.. I also use a ceramic too some times.. I also use Loose Grit what works well for flattening stones and what I call Super Charging.. I do this by sprinking loose grit on a bench stones..