So why are dado blades in tables saws so popular in the States?

[john elliott]

Since I started exploring the various mostly North American woodworking forums I've come across many mentions of cutting dados with special blades on table saws. This practice is virtually unknown in the UK (and presumable the rest of Europe), so I wonder why that is? Are us over here missing out on a good way of cutting slots, or are you guys over there doing something that would probably be better either not done at all or done differently?

John

[Jim Becker]

I've heard that dado sets aren't allowed in some places outside of the US and in fact, many of the "Euro" design table saws can't accommodate a dado set on their arbors or table slots/inserts. There is a real (and perceived) danger with big, fat dado blades and whatever the local equivalent of our OSHA doesn't like them!

Many folks prefer cutting dados and rabbits/rebates with a router. Personally, I like the dado blade in my saw...primarily from habit, as that's the way I've always done it. Choices are good when you have them!

[Stan Smith]

I wasn't aware that others were not using dado sets. I cut dados using 2 methods. One is with a router for long boards such for shelves in a bookcase. For shorter boards I used the dado set in the ts. I use my dado set to make short tenons even though I have a tenoning jig. It's just as quick to set up the dado set and really fast if you make a test piece first, which is a must for me. I don't have a rabbeting ledge on my jointer so I use the dado set to make wide rabbet cuts also. If you have to make a long dado cut, it is easier on the table saw than using the router table. I'm sure that others will chime in here with other things not mentioned by me.

[Lee Schierer]

I had heard that some of the countries over there didn't allow dado blades, but never really heard why. I can't imagine that they are all that more dangerous than a regular saw blade. I've only ever had one kick back using a dado blade and that was more lack of attantion on my part than anything the saw did.

It would be interesting if you could look into why they aren't allowed and let us know.


How about Australia? Are they allowed down under?

[Jerry Hazen]

. . . I've always wondered the same thing. I find popping a bit into my router much easier than removing the guard and changing saw blades (or even just changing blades if I didn't use the guard). I don't own a dado blade set and have no plans to buy one.

Jerry

[Bruce Walton]

Ok, how do they do it overseas? With a router or something else?

[Malcolm Timbers]

Because we like to dive dangerously in North America.

I use a dado blade in an under-powerd radial arm saw, which is fairly safe because as soon as the blade grabs, it stalls. So there is no chance of it getting out of control. I have built about 60 book cases that are 7' high with this method and it is fairly fast.

[jack duren]

dados are a production thing. you see dados in a saw in almost every profesional shop youll go to. i use a router setup in the extention wing of the tablesaw and found it very productive as i hate changing blades in the tablesaw.

have a set in the tablesaw at the moment. gotta pull them out and cut some strips just so i can put them back in to cut some more grooves.. i hate it but its gotta be done.

dados are dangerous. i was injured in 1985 from dados. ive added a couple pictures of the damage it can cause. i was lucky, could have been worse. be careful.

notice how i tuck in that pinky ;) ....jack

[jack duren]

another...

[Lee Schierer]

Originally posted by jack duren

dados are dangerous. i was injured in 1985 from dados. ive added a couple pictures of the damage it can cause. i was lucky, could have been worse. be careful.

notice how i tuck in that pinky ;) ....jack

I would like to offer a suggestion....That board you are dadoing in the first photo could be done much more safely using the crosscut guide. It appears to be too narrow for good control against the fence. If you need to have repeatable distance rom the end for the dados, use a short fence as a stop. Set the short fence so that the board is clear of it before you actually start making the cut. This will eliminate any chance of binding and kick back.

Beismeyer makes a really nice clamp on short fence or you can make your own as I have.

[Jerry Hazen]

Confining anything between the blade and fence (through cut or not) without applying downward control to that area (hands, push shoe, or hold down) is asking for trouble. The work piece needs to be free to move (due to internal stresses, operator stresses, etc.) on at least one side of the blade at all times. I'm sure there are pros who do it all day long, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Jerry

[Jim Izat]

Dado blades are more efficient than a router table setup for me. For rabbets, or grooves or dadoes of any real width and/or depth, multiple passes are the recommended practice with a router table set up. With a high quality dado set in a cabinet saw on pass is all you need. I have also used dado sets to cut bridle joint mortises with great success when I had no other option. I currently don't have a router table, so dado blades are my only option without setting up some elaborate machinations to hold the piece in place, index the cut(s) etc.

my .02

Jim

[Mike Vermeil]

Ditto on what Lee said. The dado on the end of that narrow board could be cut much more safely using some form of crosscut control; miter gauge with extension fence, crosscut sled, etc.

Sort of ditto on another point. I agree that it is safest that the end of the board not touch the rip fence while guided through the blade by a crosscut device (miter gauge), however, if you are careful, using the rip fence can add accruacy to the cut, especially when using the miter gauge and not a crosscut sled. When using the miter gauge, since the board is sliding across the table top, it can have a tendency to move along the face of the gauge, causing inaccuracy in the positioning of the dado. Keeping the rip fence in position through the entire cut allows the workpiece to remain registered in the correct position.

Of course, you could always use a crosscut sled, where the workpiece is stationary in relation to the bed it's sitting on.

[Jim Becker]

Originally posted by Mike Vermeil
When using the miter guage, since the board is sliding across the table top, it can have a tendency to move along the face of the guage, causing inaccuracy in the positioning of the dado.

Using an auxiliary fence on the miter guage with some 100 grit sandpaper on the face will greatly help keep the workpiece from moving during the cut. You can then use a short fence to set the length, but not have the regular fence engaged during the cut.

[Mike Vermeil]

How do you guys carry over portion of a previous reply to your new response? I can't seem to figure out how to do it.

This is neither here nor there, but quite often you'll see the guy on DIY Wood Works use his rip fence for length control while crosscutting with a sled.

[Jim Becker]

Originally posted by Mike Vermeil
How do you guys carry over portion of a previous reply to your new response? I can't seem to figure out how to do it.

This is neither here nor there, but quite often you'll see the guy on DIY Wood Works use his rip fence for length control while crosscutting with a sled.

Instead of hitting the "Reply" button, hit the "Quote" button when you want to reply with previous text included. Be sure to Edit that text so you don't include more than you need to have to continue from there.

Regarding David Marks' technique, you pointed out the one thing that makes me cringe when I watch his show. Otherwise, pretty good stuff!

[Paul Geer]

Originally posted by john elliott
Since I started exploring the various mostly North American woodworking forums I've come across many mentions of cutting dados with special blades on table saws. This practice is virtually unknown in the UK (and presumable the rest of Europe), so I wonder why that is? Are us over here missing out on a good way of cutting slots, or are you guys over there doing something that would probably be better either not done at all or done differently?

John

Yes I think you are missing out.

Like so many people here in the "states", I use three methods for cuting dados and rabbets; Table saw, Hand-held router and the Table router or some say Router station. Four if you like to count the radal arm saw, which I don't use.

And YES I have all TEN after 15 years of carefull power tool use.

[Stan Smith]

I was using my dado set today to cut tenons. Since this was a "re-do", I already had the test piece for the set up and could cut the entire tenon, cheeks and shoulders, very quickly. If I had used the tenoning jig it would have been at least the same amount of setup time and maybe more. However, I think that I should probably practice a little more with the tenoning jig to get more accurate with it.

Stan

[Mike Vermeil]

Another advantage of dado blades that I just thought of is adjustability - add a shim set to a dado blade, and any width dado is possible (between the min & max of course).

With a router bit, unless you make multiple passes, requiring movement of the fence device, you get what you get.

All in all, I think you should try a dado set. It won't be your choise for every milling operation, but it will probably be for many. I know I wouldn't give up mine.

[jack duren]

i understand the concern about cutting narrow dados on a tablesaw. these dados were in (if i remember) 8"x20" drawer stock.

no i dont recommend you try these unless your professional or a veteran of the tablesaw.

these dados i make for drawers are common and the fence works fine. we do alot of things on tablesaws "most" would not understand....jack

[Ian Barley]

All power tools now sold in the European Union have to carry a CE mark. This is legally required and basically no tablesaw with an arbour capable of taking a dado will pass the test. This is a deliberate outcome because the various european safety organisations (in the UK it is the Health & Safety Executive - HSE) have decided that cutting dados on the saw is too dangerous.

This is not an arbitrary decision. They examine the statistics for when and how accidents occur (reporting accidents is also a statutory requirement). They then focus attention on those practices with disproportionately high accident rates.

I guess that the reasons why dados on a table are more dangerous include :-
You cannot (whatever Norm's captions say) cut a dado on a table saw and have adequate guarding on the blade.
While the blade may be covered by the workpiece for much of it's travel, it is completely exposed at the begining and end of the cut.
Dado's cut in this way will often involve a cutting with a short edge against a fence - generally much less stable.

The way that the HSE operates is to identify where there may be a problem using stats and then seek to either do the job another way, modify the machine to make the process safer or guard the operator using either machine guards or PPE. It is sometimes a pain in the a** but basically it's worth listening to what they say.

In this instance the they are saying do the job another way, I have to say that it never causes me any problems and makes for a lot less messing around swapping blades on saws.

This is not the only "traditional" method of work that they are trying to squeeze out. It used to be common practice over here to cut rebats on teh edge of boards using a planer (Jointer). No new design has this feature, basically because it has a bad safety record.

[Mike Vermeil]

Originally posted by jack duren
i understand the concern about cutting narrow dados on a tablesaw. these dados were in (if i remember) 8"x20" drawer stock.

Seeing the picture from that angle, I agree with you Jack. The angle of the earlier picture made the board look much narrower. Now that I look back at it, and the relation of your right hand to left, I can see that the board is indeed that wide.

[Paul Geer]

Originally posted by Stan Smith
I was using my dado set today to cut tenons. Since this was a "re-do", I already had the test piece for the set up and could cut the entire tenon, cheeks and shoulders, very quickly. If I had used the tenoning jig it would have been at least the same amount of setup time and maybe more. However, I think that I should probably practice a little more with the tenoning jig to get more accurate with it.

Stan

Hi Stan,


I use a tennoning jig to cut all tennons, it's a great tool to have and I tend to use it for other operations as well. I have a Delta at the home shop, it features anti-tip over. In the "at-work" shop we use a Power Matic, nice jig and a good price but I like the Delta a little better. Both jigs have that micro adjustment knob so you can sneek up to the size you're tying to cut.

I also like the fact that all you do is just set it on the TS and start running... after some setup of course.

[Mike Vermeil]

Originally posted by Ian Barley
[B]All power tools now sold in the European Union have to carry a CE mark. This is legally required and basically no tablesaw with an arbour capable of taking a dado will pass the test. This is a deliberate outcome because the various european safety organisations (in the UK it is the Health & Safety Executive - HSE) have decided that cutting dados on the saw is too dangerous.

This is not an arbitrary decision. They examine the statistics for when and how accidents occur (reporting accidents is also a statutory requirement). They then focus attention on those practices with disproportionately high accident rates.]

Ian,

You just hit on a major difference between government here in the US and that in the EU, namely the amount of interference in our daily lives. As much as certain factions in this country would like to deny it, or at least change it, one of the founding principles of this country as championed by Thomas Jefferson is that of "small government." As a rule of thumb, we as US citizens (or colonists for that matter) have always had much disdain for those in high office instructing us how to live our lives. The ramificaitons of this run throughout all facets of our society.

While the appropriateness & virtures of small goverment have been debated now for centuries on this side of the pond, I for one hope that I will always be "allowed" to use the tool of my choise. Honestly, just the thought that any human being should have to be "allowed" to use any tool, that is not dangerous to others around him, makes me squirm a bit. Come to think of it, isn't there a war going on somewhere right now where for years people haven't been "allowed" to do much of anything?

[Jim Becker]

Originally posted by Ian Barley
You cannot (whatever Norm's captions say) cut a dado on a table saw and have adequate guarding on the blade. While the blade may be covered by the workpiece for much of it's travel, it is completely exposed at the beginning and end of the cut.


Ian, I'm curious as to your thoughts about this topic with regard to the overarm guards that many of us have and use, even for non-through cuts like dados in panels. Would that not provide some acceptable level of protection in this case?

That being said, the riving knives that are on the euro-style saws are a hugely better design than the various splitters most of us make do with. Kudos to those manufacturers that supply them!

[john elliott]

Originally posted by Mike Vermeil
Ian,

You just hit on a major difference between government here in the US and that in the EU, namely the amount of interference in our daily lives.

The perspective from Europe is that it isn't the government in the US that controls what individuals can do, but rather the suppliers' fear of law suits should something bad happen

John

[Mike Vermeil]

Originally posted by john elliott
The perspective from Europe is that it isn't the government in the US that controls what individuals can do, but rather the suppliers' fear of law suits should something bad happen

John

John,

My point was that in much of Europe, the gov't has much more interference in daily life than in the US. This can be seen in European regulations of all type, from those outlawing dado blades to others setting extremely strict environmental controls. Now this is not to say that the US gov't doesn't have it's hand in daily life, just that, at least for the time being, it's smaller than than in Europe.

As far as liability litigation, it's a huge problem over here, and is definitely a threat to American individual freedoms. What started out as a means for people to recover damages from totaly unsafe products and services, has become a defacto means of legislating certain products out of the market. What our gov't hasn't been able to get rid of through direct legislation, they now attack through the courts - tabaco for instance. The Clinton administration really championed this method, and I'm affraid that the gun industry will be the next to fall. The courts have also been for some time now a popular method for implementing social changes that could not garner enough support to be implemented through legislation.

Wait, didn't I say a month or so ago that I wouldn't get involved in political discussions? I promise this time.

[John Snyder]

Originally posted by jack duren
i understand the concern about cutting narrow dados on a tablesaw. these dados were in (if i remember) 8"x20" drawer stock.

no i dont recommend you try these unless your professional or a veteran of the tablesaw.

these dados i make for drawers are common and the fence works fine. we do alot of things on tablesaws "most" would not understand....jack

Jack ... its not a matter of "most" not understanding ... I'm sure most seasoned ww'ers here understand what you're doing. Running an 8" board against a fence with no cross cut support is clearly a matter of "getting away" with an usafe practice. Hey, if it works for you, thats fine, but its clearly not the safest way to make that cut.

JS

[Ian Barley]

Originally posted by Mike Vermeil
Ian,

You just hit on a major difference between government here in the US and that in the EU, namely the amount of interference in our daily lives. As much as certain factions in this country would like to deny it, or at least change it, one of the founding principles of this country as championed by Thomas Jefferson is that of "small government." etc.....

For what its worth, I am also a small governmenter by nature. I personally believe that any idiot should be able to do anything he wants, regardless of what harm he may cause to himself, as long as it does not have repercussions on others - BUT - for a long list of historic reasons our society is more "communal" than yours. (Agian - not saying that is good or bad - it just is) We have a national health service directly funded by taxation and a welfare system similarly funded. That means that if that idiot injures himself in such a way that he is permanently disabled and incapable of working, my taxes are gonna keep him for the rest of his natural. If that is the case then the caveat that he(we) have to accept for that privilege is some measure of control over the ease and extent to which we are able to harm ourselves.

The point I was actually making about the actions of the HSE was that their actions are not random. They don't look and think "Gosh - dado blades look dangerous - let's ban them". The decisions are taken on clear statistical analysis.

Jim - Overhead guards - I guess I hadn't really taken them into account as they are virtually non-existent over here. Your correct that they do act as a blade cover so they protect in that. They would not meet the CE requirement though as the riving knife is a requirement and would be absent in that kind of setup.

Again I stress - I am not saying that I agree or disagree with this kind of restriction. I just don't find the absence of dado blades to be a significant disadvantage.

[jack duren]

john i understand your concern but this is acceptable in professional shops and isnt just me.

these cuts are a piece of cake. you should stand behind me when i made "freehand":eek: pattern cuts years ago in commercial. :D .....jack

[Skip Horni]

I just came back from 5 years in Belgium (six months ago). For most of that time I had Britt Sat TV (SKY). Watched a bunch of Norm there, and know the Britts know about dado blades. The only time I saw something close, the Britt version of Norm ( I do not remember his name) was building a shop and he was showing how he was going to fill it and with what machines. He had, I think, a Kity table saw and a "cross cut" (read radial arm) saw that the motor was made by, no foolin, a washing machine company. Point is that he was legal to put a "wobble" blade in the cross cut but not in the TS.

An aside; I have also seen warnings on equipment (miter saw/bench saw combo for example) that said you should always wear safety glasses, breathing mask, and gloves. There was another Britt woodworker (he used to build boats) that would not use the TS w/o using cotton work gloves. I cringed every time I saw this.

And that's my unasked for .02.

Skip Horni

[Ian Barley]

Skip

Absolutely right - I wasn't singling out Norm - I just didn't expect that many on this forum had seen "The Workshop that John built" or "Woodworks".

Yes dado blades are legal in Radial Arm Saws - can only assume that something about the physics of it makes it a practice that doesn't show up on HSE stats. The RAS is a relativley rare machine in home workshops over here and the ones used in commercial environments are built quite differently. (I think the only people likely to have a RAS are TV presenters who have been given one by a tool company trying to persuade people that they are indispensable). I have to say that I thought the last person who used a wobble blade did so in 1932 but just goes to show what I know.

The guy with the gloves is an idiot. I cannot watch his show at all 'cos he just has me worrying that I am gonna watch him lose an arm on TV. What he proves is that it is perfectly possible to use a more safe tool in a less safe way if you try. My point is that it is more difficult to make a riskier tool safe than it is to make a safer tool risky.

[Skip Horni]

Ian,

That's them, "Woodworks" and "The Shop That John Built"! I could not even think of the names. When you get old they say the first thing to go is the memory. I don't remember what comes next.

Both those shows were more than they offered in Belgium itself. I was glad I had access to them.

Best I can figure, if a guy wants to be 100 percent safe, the best way to do it is to put a for "sale sign" on his equipment. We're always being protected from ourselves and each year it seems to get worse. I fear the day will come when we can tell our great grand children, after they have outlawed home power tools, how we used to make furniture by hand. You know what I mean. "Selbst bildete" or some such.

Have a good one and thanks for the reply.

[W.C. Turner]

Jack,

I noticed you using the fence in cutting the dado. I was under the assumption that the fence was never to be used when making cross cuts on the tablesaw. Isn't this a safety issue?

Thanks.

[Jim Martin]

[The point I was actually making about the actions of the HSE was that their actions are not random. They don't look and think "Gosh - dado blades look dangerous - let's ban them". The decisions are taken on clear statistical analysis.

I can give you clear statistical analysis linking many food items such as red meat, foods and snacks with high sugar content, etc. with heart disease, diabetes and cancer. Want to ban them?

How about bicycles? Statistics show a huge amount of child injuries involved.

Alcohol and tobacco?

Cell phones in cars?

I could go on and on. Statistics can be found to justify any argument. If we make the environment around us sterile enough maybe we can raise the average lifespan to 100. But is it worth what we have to give up?

[jack duren]

W.C.... only if it was a trapped cut or the board was too narrow to offer good control along the fence. in this case a 8x20 is acceptable in my shop book.

anything i say, you read here, or in a book, comes with "NO" warranty. when in doubt use your gut feeling, it offers the best advice.....jack