Metalizing

[Martin Boekers]

I've been looking for ways to do something similar to this..

http://www.metal-morphous.com/pages/services/our-process/micro-casting.php

You'll notice about halfway down the page (with a stategically placed thumb) The Epilog Aztec calander.

With tech. moving as quick as it is it's hard to keep up with some processes.

Is there a way to make wood or plastic to look like actual metal,
that can be done easily in shops like ours. I've beed reading a bit
about powder coating other substrates besides metal, but I don't
think that can be done at "home yet"

Rodne, you seem to know pretty much something about everything:D

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

[Lee DeRaud]

Is there a way to make wood or plastic to look like actual metal, that can be done easily in shops like ours?Well, gold or silver leaf springs to mind. David Marks makes it look pretty easy...or at least a lot easier than most of the stuff he does.:eek:

[Joe De Medeiros]

I'm not sure how they do it, but I have seen something like this done by using a conductive spray, then plating the object. It's a technique called electro-forming. You can buy an electro-forming kit with all the needed supplies.

[Chuck Stone]

This seems very similar to what I'm doing in another thread

You could do your original in wood or other laserable, make a mold of that
(there's mold making kits in hobby shops, or you can get silicone kits
from suppliers) and pour a positive in resin.

If you tint some resin and add metallic powders, you can get some
realistic looking castings. You can get powders like copper, bronze,
brass, aluminum etc. and mix them to get the colors you want.

[Rodne Gold]

Part of their stuff seems to be a cold casting process. Make a master , use RTV silicone for a mould and use a resin with metal powder to fill. The cross hatch thread here has an example. I do a bit of it.

Stuff like the guitar seems to be the same process as bronzing baby shoes.
Have a look at this:
http://www.finishing.com/faqs/organic.html

Also found this
Perhaps someone can detail the articles but the basis of the process is to seal the material with epoxy and coat with conductive paint (I have always used Electrodag) and plate.
and this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbKRQfOlhhI

[Joe Pelonio]

I have used metal powders mixed in clear topcoat from one-shot to spray
laser-cut acrylic letters and they do look like metal.

[Chuck Stone]

Found a video link of someone making a cold cast bronze piece.

http://www.smooth-on.com/index.php?cPath=1211_1211

[Bill Humes]

Cosmichrome is a spray on system like automotive paint, actually silver plates any material/surface with a tintable mirror/chrome finish that is laserable. We have a Cosmichrome setup if anyone is interested.

here are some video links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gKS4XhXO54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBy4leV2Xmk

[Dan Hintz]

If that Cosmichrome system is the one I'm thinking of, the price of the machines were outrageously expensive... I can't imagine what one charges to actually use it in an attempt to recoup the cost.

[Martin Boekers]

Dan,

You may be thinking of this process, pretty neat, VERY durable,
I believe they give a 30 year warranty.

http://www.luminore.com/

Marty

[Bill Humes]

If that Cosmichrome system is the one I'm thinking of, the price of the machines were outrageously expensive... I can't imagine what one charges to actually use it in an attempt to recoup the cost.

You have a funny way of asking, typically $24 per square foot for short runs but of course qty, size, complexity all factor in. Honestly I am just getting my feet wet with the system restoring an old car, so at this stage it is more of a hobby, but eventually I'll be using it on more of a manufacturing basis than a service basis. For instance Whirlpool uses it to chrome the knobs on their washers and dryers.

[Richard Rumancik]

Marty, thanks for the link to the Metal Morphous site. Very interesting. But I'm not quite sure what it is exactly. They call it "casting" and actually refer to wax models in one place - implying investment casting. They also state that it is "real" metal - to me that would imply more than a metalic paint or similar emulsion of metal powder/flakes and a polymer carrier. To me, quite a bit of it would appear to be electrodeposited metal coatings as opposed to casting in the normal sense.

For small shops, the metalic paint variations are probably the most practicable alternatives - purchased products as well as variations such as what Joe P. suggests. After that I think the next step up would be metalization processes which requires making the surface conductive and then using electroplating techniques (or electroforming as Joe de Medeiros suggests).

Others have suggested it is cold casting but I did not come to that conclusion. I don't think cold casting fits as an alternative for what you want, as that process is used when you want to make the entire model/part from scratch, as opposed to applying a metallic surface to an object manufactured by another process (eg laser.) Since you say you want to make wood or plastic look like metal, I think you are looking for a coating process, not a cold casting process.

I don't know if you will find a kit off-the-shelf; if you do please let us know. My guess is that you will have to keep researching and come up with materials and techniques on your own. There is a a bit of magic involved not just science so I'm guessing that those who have perfected the process don't want to give away their secrets. On the Metal Morphous site, there is a page called "our process". They show how they metalized the American flag in 3 steps, but I think they left out the other 99 steps.

I have been thinking about trying to metallize plastics as well, mainly to make faux-metallic plaques. I am familiar with the electroplating and electrodeposition techniques but haven't really had the time to develop a system. If you want to explore casting, electrodeposition and plating you will often find resources in the jewelry making field. Jewelry manufacturing techniques will be more suitable for small shops.

Perhaps Caswell has some kits that could be adapted for this purpose - I haven't looked recently.

[Rodne Gold]

From their website

Specialty Mold & Sign Fabrication - Preserve original wax mold, make multiple Metalized poly-resin replications.

Looks like cold casting to me (cold casting is using metal powders suspended in resin)

[Richard Rumancik]

Well, now that I re-read that part - I have no idea of what they are saying.

I read it too quickly and I guess when I saw "wax" I thought of investment casting - but wax is not usually used as a mold; it is used for the pattern (in the case of investment casting, one wax model/pattern is required for each part made.) So what they are saying here, I don't really know.

As far as the "metalized poly-resin replications" - I took that to mean that their metalization process could be applied to cast resin parts - which makes sense, as resin is basically a thermosetting plastic so a candidate for metalization. You interpreted it as though they were adding metal particles to the resin and stopping there.

So it could be cold casting (resin + metal powder) or resin casting followed by their metalization process. It isn't clear which it is.

[Rodne Gold]

The waxes thing also confused me , as RTV Silcon moulds can withstand low melting point metal and I see no purpose in using the lost wax process in making these - you can make as many RTV moulds as you want with a master
When we do cold casting , we would never fill a bulky mould with the resin/metal mix , we paint a skin of it over the mould and then pour in something like plaster of paris to fill all barring the outer skin which is then patinated or polished or whatever.
The metal powders are very expensive , hence the attempts to use as little as possible.
I would actually like to get more into this metalizing thing , as it is a process or finish that we could well use and in my industry and market segment , I can see many profitable opportunities.

[Dan Hintz]

Bill,

It was more of a rhetorical question, though $24 sq/ft doesn't sound too bad all things considered (I'm assuming that's all included, not just $24/sq ft for materials alone).

Oddly enough, neither of the two systems listed were what I originally had in mind. It appears there are quite a few solutions out there waiting to be tapped.

[Martin Boekers]

I move more and more into signage I like the idea of posibilities of cutting
a shape or design out of wood or MDF with the laser or CNC and being able
to make it "metallic.

I do quite a bit now with Fusion painting black acrylic and that ok for
what it is, but to be able to get a polished or satin effect on shapes
I can make would be great!

It looks like some of there work is cast or a combination of, I was hoping
for and easy application and process. (aren't we all!);)

Some has to be applied from what I see of the different products they offer.

What sort of trade show do you think they would attend as a vendor?
I guess I can call and find out.

Thanks for all the input!

Marty

[Richard Rumancik]

Marty, if you are looking at metalizing large signs, then I don't think the electrodeposition methods are the way to go. That works for smaller stuff. I think you probably need a paint booth and a spray-on solution. Exactly what, I don't know . . .

[Martin Boekers]

Actually I do have access to a spray booth with heat lamps, large enough for a med sized truck.

Actually the pieces typically are under 18x18" Letters would be cut and
"metalized" individually the assembeled, Most letters under 8" tall.

I also do custom fabrication of awards boards, as well a custom design
work specialty items. I've had some metal jobs that required outsourcing
to a water jet provider, so something like this would help tremendously!
My time frames are usually short and I get nervous about outsourcing to much.


Marty

[Bill Humes]

Cosmichrome may be a good solution. It is a combination of automotive painting and silver plating. You basically apply a special primer to any material, then plate the primer using an electro-sprayer that causes a silver (real AU) solution to plate to the primer, then spray a tintable clear coat over the silver to keep it from tarnishing. I don't know of any other process that produces such a high quality finish to any material, even flexible.

The $24 per sq ft estimate includes sprayed materials, but does not include fixturing and prep work that may need to be done in order to hold the part throughout the process and create a mirror finish. They suggest a 2000 grit finish to duplicate real chrome, but we have sprayed raw wood etc and it still creates a real metalized finish.

My son is the one to talk to on this, his name is Dan: 269-637-0337 #302

(see attached photo of an aluminum bellhousing with a chrome finish)

[Michael Hunter]

In the original link, the printing plate looks the surest way to make money!

The list of metals does suggest that it is a cold-casting process, as I don't think that you can plate stainless steel onto things and aluminisation is normally a vacuum deposition thing.


Another possibility for real-metal lasered stuff -
The printed circuit board industry uses "electroless copper" to do an initial plating of the insides of drilled holes (and sometimes whole boards). I think that electroless sticks to just about anything.
Following the electroless process, the boards are electroplated in the normal way to build up the thickness.
PCB places always have gold to hand, so that would be the final finish of choice.
PCB making is a bit of a cottage industry round here and I have some good contacts so maybe there is time to do some gold Christmas decs.

[Scott Shepherd]

I move more and more into signage I like the idea of posibilities of cutting a shape or design out of wood or MDF with the laser or CNC and being able to make it "metallic.

I suspect you already know about this company then- http://www.sculptnouveau.com/

Many options for doing just what you said you wanted to achieve.

[Martin Boekers]

I suspect you already know about this company then- http://www.sculptnouveau.com/

Many options for doing just what you said you wanted to achieve.

I do now! Thanks Scott for the link, I do see possibilities!


Marty

[Dan Humes]

Actually the pieces typically are under 18x18" Letters would be cut and
"metalized" individually the assembeled, Most letters under 8" tall.
Marty

Hi Marty,
just let me know if you need any other info in the Cosmichrome, sounds like it would work well for you.
thanks,
Dan