WWII-Burns...Grizzly Blade-NICE

[Kyle Kaldor]

So after I bought my Grizzly 691 I figured I should get a nice combo blade as I figured that the Grizzly blade wouldn't be the best. So I picked up a Forrest WWII 40T blade from a fellow Creeker. I ended up using the Grizzly blade for quite a while in the beginning because it proved to provide some very clean cuts.

For about a month I misplaced the WWII blade and my wife found it in a tote in the basement...don't ask me how it got there? Anyways, I was about to rip some QSWO for some doors and decided to put the WWII to the test to see just how much better this blade could be than the stock Grizzly blade. I ripped about 3 or 4 boards and was seeing a lot of burning that I hadn't seen with the Grizzly blade. So I switched back to the Grizzly blade and no more burning. Why is the superior WWII burning and the inferior Grizzly does not??

[Joe Mioux]

when was the last time the WWII been sharpened vs the Grizzly?

is the griz the same tooth count?

[Jeff Monson]

What type of Grizzly blade were you using? A ripping blade?
There are a few different things to consider.

1. The Forrest blade needs a resharpening
2. A dedicated rip blade will rip better than a 40tooth combination blade.
3. Is the saw setup correctly, blade set parallel to the mitre slot and fence set parallel to blade?

[Steve Griffin]

Could also be slightly warped. I had a fairly new Systematic blade turn worthless on me once it developed a little wobble for some reason. -Steve

[Stephen Cherry]

Did you try ripping the oak with the Grizzly blade? Otherwise, the comparison is not telling you very much.

[Bruce Page]

I'd be willing to bet that the WWII needs sharpening.
Mine doesn't burn unless it gets dull.

[Dave Gaul]

OP said the WWII was lost for a period of time, found in a tote in the basement...

Is it possible that the blade got warped somehow?

[Chris Padilla]

My money is on a dull blade.

[Kyle Kaldor]

My money is on a dull blade.

The blade is Brand New.


OP said the WWII was lost for a period of time, found in a tote in the basement...

Is it possible that the blade got warped somehow?

That is possible. I'll check that.


Did you try ripping the oak with the Grizzly blade? Otherwise, the comparison is not telling you very much. Yes, read my second paragraph again.


What type of Grizzly blade were you using? A ripping blade?
There are a few different things to consider.

1. The Forrest blade needs a resharpening
2. A dedicated rip blade will rip better than a 40tooth combination blade.
3. Is the saw setup correctly, blade set parallel to the mitre slot and fence set parallel to blade?

Both blades are 40T combo blades. What would explain the difference if they are the same tooth count and the saw setup is identical. One is burning, the other is not.

[Chris Padilla]

Check the WWII more closely for a bad tooth or two while you check it for wobble.

Same tooth count gets you about halfway there. Check both blades to see what grind the teeth have. Do they look about the same?

[Kyle Kaldor]

Check the WWII more closely for a bad tooth or two while you check it for wobble.

Same tooth count gets you about halfway there. Check both blades to see what grind the teeth have. Do they look about the same?

If it does happen to be wobble or a bad tooth, can I send it back to Forrest?

Chris, I do realize that the grind angle and tooth configuration can also play into this.

[Chris Padilla]

Forrest is usually pretty good about fixing bad blades...especially if they appear brand new but don't cut well. It is worth a phone call to them to hash out the details.

[glenn bradley]

I have a WWII that I have never been happy with. There are many, many folks at SMC whose opinions I respect who have very good results with the WWII. I assume mine was defective from the git-go and in my inexperienced early years I did not pursue having it exchanged/repaired.

My Freud, Lietz and other blades all do a superior job and I am sure that if I had the WWII fixed/replaced it would do well too. The cost to have the blade shipped, repaired and returned is now so close to the cost of blades that I know work beautifully, I have just relegated the WWII to the "rough work" that occasionally comes along.

Learn from my mistake. If the blade is new, contact Forrest and see about a replacement. The Creeker you bought it from would probably make the call for you if "original owner" is an issue. Don't delay like I did and end up with an expensive "beater" and good luck.

[Neil Brooks]

You hear stories like Glenn's, periodically.

I absolutely believe they're true.

One thing that would be great (Paging Dr. Spencer. Dr. Scott Spencer) is if we all had a better understanding (along the lines of this thread) of what TYPES of Quality Control defects a manufacturer like Forrest sees, captures, looks for, or experiences.

In other words, when their blades don't pass inspection, why DON'T they pass inspection.

It's fairly safe to assume that some blades slip by QC, with SOME of these 'failure modes.'

I wonder what % of those failure modes a consumer COULD detect on their own (eg, eyeball, strong light, magnifying glass, etc.), as opposed to -- guessing here -- weird metallurgic anomalies, slight mis-alignment issues, or .... :confused:

I've been SO darned happy with my WWII that I get really curious about those whose experiences aren't in line with mine.

It might BE that .... if sent back to Forrest ... they'd do microscopic or x-ray or ??? analysis, figure out what was wrong, and send a replacement blade to the Glenns of the world, giving THEM the "Ahhhhhhh" experience, too !

[Jeff Monson]

Forrest is usually pretty good about fixing bad blades...especially if they appear brand new but don't cut well. It is worth a phone call to them to hash out the details.

That would be my next move also Kyle, I have had similar experiences with different blades, I bought a new freud fusion that did not do well on rip cuts either, others swore by this blade but it just didnt fit the bill for me.

My WWII has been a great blade, their customer service has also been very good, so its worth a phone call to them.

[Kyle Kaldor]

Email sent to Forrest... We'll see how it goes.

[Jim Rimmer]

In your original post you said you bought it from a fellow Creeker. Then you said it was brand new (which could be). Could there be a reason he wanted to sell it? Will manufacturer warranty a resold blade?

[Kyle Kaldor]

In your original post you said you bought it from a fellow Creeker. Then you said it was brand new (which could be). Could there be a reason he wanted to sell it? Will manufacturer warranty a resold blade?

Well, it came in an unopened sleeve (Green Forrest one that all new blades come in) and also had the blades covered in that rubbery/plastic stuff and wrapped in cellophane. So I'm assuming it was new, unless Forrest resharpened it and sent it back like that? In any case it should have been like new.

[Van Huskey]

Well, it came in an unopened sleeve (Green Forrest one that all new blades come in) and also had the blades covered in that rubbery/plastic stuff and wrapped in cellophane. So I'm assuming it was new, unless Forrest resharpened it and sent it back like that? In any case it should have been like new.


Kyle you have a PM

[Van Huskey]

One thing you might try is kick the back of the fence out of parallel (away from the blade) a couple of thou. Several of the high end blade manufacturers, including Forrest I think, suggest this to prevent burning.


Edit

I checked and they do also. There should have been instructions that came with the blade, look on the second page in the middle and it shows how to set the fence .005" away from the back of the blade.

[Scott Donley]

Just came in from ripping 6 5ft 5/4 maple boards with no problems using a full kerf Woodworker II. Would have switched to a 24 tooth if I was going to do more. You might check the washer an the arbor to make sure there was no dirt under it when you changed blades, just a thought.

[Kyle Kaldor]

One thing you might try is kick the back of the fence out of parallel (away from the blade) a couple of thou. Several of the high end blade manufacturers, including Forrest I think, suggest this to prevent burning.


Edit

I checked and they do also. There should have been instructions that came with the blade, look on the second page in the middle and it shows how to set the fence .005" away from the back of the blade.

I do have some toe out towards the back of the blade with the fence. I'm not sure how much exactly because I don't have a way to properly measure it, but I would guess about .005-010". I specifically set it up this way when I got my saw and it has been performing well with the stock blade.

[scott spencer]

It's tough to guess at what the cause might be....it could be a few things including a defect in the WWII.

Even though both blades have 40 teeth, they're not equally designed blades. The WWII has a tighter side clearance, which tends to leave a smoother more polished edge....that same feature can also lead to more burning if something's not quite right...too slow a feedrate, binding wood, moist wood/wood that's very prone to burning, wood that's not flat/straight, overtightening of the blade, alignment not quite on, etc. The WWII will be more sensitive to all of these types of variables, but once things are corrected, it should yield a visibly smoother cut, assuming it's not defective. You might also try raising the blade a bit higher.

[James Malcolm]

I bought a brand new Forrest WWII when I got my G0690. I tried the Grizzly blade for a bit before switching to the WW II. Mine also burns a lot, sometimes the entire length of a board. I assumed that my fence was toed in, that I wasn't feeding it right or just the fact that I was working with maple. Perhaps I should try the oem again and see...

[Paul Murphy]

I own a 30t wwII, cuts great, has been resharpened and now cuts as good as new. Bought a 40t wwII on sale from Amazon, cut horribly. Put the then dull 30t WWII back on the saw, and finished my work with the dull blade that outperformed the new blade. Boxed the 40t back up and sent it back to Amazon for a refund. I have no idea what the issue was, but wasn't going to ruin any more veneered panels trying to pin it down. I bought a ridge 40t on sale, and it also cuts beautifully on the same saw.

Forrest blades have very little side clearance, and if the fence is off they will burn worse than a blade with more a conventional grind. That said, my own suspicion is Forrest has had a period of questionable quality control. I have no other explaination for a dull Forrest working much better than a new Forrest.

I understand you called Forrest and gave them a chance to stand behind their product, or had the original purchaser do it. If they don't make things right be sure to let everyone in the woodworking community know.

[ian maybury]

Just a thought, and i can't back it with exeprience. But i wonder if there might not be blade/fence alignment issue that's contributing to the heating?

What if one blade has a bit more 'set' in its teeth than the other (not sure what the term for a carbide blade is - but i mean the overhang in the teeth that means the kerf is wider than the thickness of the plate) - could the extra clearance this would generate for the plate mean that it would avoid heating?

ian

[Kyle Kaldor]

Well, Just an update of what I found tonight in the garage. I did talk to the original owner of the blade as well and we'll be getting this squared away shortly. But, for my sanity I wanted to try a couple of things first. I tried several different amounts of toe out of the fence to the saw blade and also as close as I could come to parallel. At this point I had not really played with this adjustment much because after my initial set up it seemed to be working well for me. It didn't really matter too much from perfectly parallel to a toe out of about 1/32" (this was the difference measured from the front to the back of the fence), but that was about the best I could do and it still left burn marks. At 1/32" of an inch of toe out, was the best and only produced burn marks mainly on the left side of the blade and towards the end of the cut or if I stopped or slowed down the feed rate too much. I also noticed that my riving knife was not perfectly lined up and thought that it may be pushing the wood up against the blade as it tried to align itself, but that didn't seem to make much of a difference either after I got that perfect.

I am really just hoping that something is wrong with the blade and the issue is solved with a new blade. It's somewhat reassuring to know that some other people have been having the same problem.

I have to agree with Paul and Ian that is seems as though the side clearance on the Forrest seems to be less and could possibly be more finicky to a perfect setup.

Thanks everyone for the responses and helping me to get this figured out.

Kyle

[scott spencer]

Kyle (and others) - FYI...Tool King is still offering the original DeWalt DW7657 (http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-10-inch-40-Tooth-General-Purpose/dp/B0042T9YZM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1286971270&sr=1-2) from their Series 60 line (made in the UK) for < $20 shipped. Similar design to the WWII, maybe not quite on par (although some prefer it), but a very nice blade full kerf (0.118") 40T general purpose blade at a super price.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MHXP8YSRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[Kyle Kaldor]

...You might also try raising the blade a bit higher.

Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner! Actually, Scott, you were not the only person to mention this. The fellow that I bought the blade from also suggested this and to be honest, I had not given it much consideration until he recommended it. This was his recommendation:

"The only thing I did not see you mention that you might want to try is to raise the blade significantly higher than most people are used to. Forrest is one manufacturer that says to do this with their blades specifically to prevent burning due to their grind. Frued and most others want just the bottom of the gullet to be even with the top of the wood. "

I raised the blade up higher than I would normally and this pretty much eliminated my problem. I ran about 6 more cuts through and saw a very minimal amount of burning on 4 of the 6 cuts and 2 had absolutely none. This is acceptable to me because it would easily sand out and the burning that was there could possibly be attributed to some gnarly grain in the piece that I cut which could have released some internal stresses in the board.

Thanks to everyone that offered help in resolving my problem. I am now a happy camper...:D

[John Nesmith]

My money says someone was playing frisbee with it in the basement.

[Jeff Miller]

Forrest WWII BLADES >>>>>R>>>>>>>>OVERRATED:eek:

I have some CMT and Freud blades that cut like butta.




Haven't really heard much good said about Forest blades (here and on WoodNet)


An employee at Woodcraft even steered me away from them:D



JEFF:)

[Don Alexander]

i find it interesting that even though the Grizzly blade is cutting better than the WWII that th OP still refers to the WWII as superior and the griz as inferior

the facts apparently do not support that , in this case at least
personally i have tried 2 different WWII blades several years apart both combination blades and neither one produced as good a cut as a Freud combo blade with the same number of teeth my conclusion was that there was no point in spending significantly more money for a lesser quality cut not saying anything other than my personal experience on 2 occasions several years apart

every once in awhile i still try out some other brand of blade and almost all of the time i quickly start asking myself why i bothered, basically stick with what works till it doesn't work anymore :D

[Kyle Kaldor]

Don, what I meant by that is the WWII is supposed to be superior and the Grizzly is supposed to be inferior. Obviously, in my experience, that is not the case. I think the Grizzly blade is every bit as good as the WWII.


i find it interesting that even though the Grizzly blade is cutting better than the WWII that th OP still refers to the WWII as superior and the griz as inferior

[Van Huskey]

I think the perception by many that Forrest is overrated is based on two things, the hype around the blade makes one expect a miracle cut and Forrest blades need a different setup than most other blades to work properly. Between the Tenryu Gold Medal, Freud P410 Fusion, Infinity Super General and Forrest WWII 40T there is little or any real world difference when properly setup in my opinion. I have had all these blades and have multiples of three of them in the shop now. I just can't tell wood cut by one from the other. If I was buying a new one to be my only combo blade I would pick the cheapest I could find of the 4. The one type of person I would suggest NOT buy the Forrest would be someone who does not use a blade guard, the Forrest grind requires a lot of blade above the cut and if you don't use a blade guard it is really increasing the danger in an already dangerous situation.

In the end blades are usually a Ford vs Chevy vs Mopar kinda discussion.

[scott spencer]

I think the perception by many that Forrest is overrated is based on two things, the hype around the blade makes one expect a miracle cut and Forrest blades need a different setup than most other blades to work properly. Between the Tenryu Gold Medal, Freud P410 Fusion, Infinity Super General and Forrest WWII 40T there is little or any real world difference when properly setup in my opinion. I have had all these blades and have multiples of three of them in the shop now. I just can't tell wood cut by one from the other. If I was buying a new one to be my only combo blade I would pick the cheapest I could find of the 4. The one type of person I would suggest NOT buy the Forrest would be someone who does not use a blade guard, the Forrest grind requires a lot of blade above the cut and if you don't use a blade guard it is really increasing the danger in an already dangerous situation.

In the end blades are usually a Ford vs Chevy vs Mopar kinda discussion.

You nailed it IMO, and that's pretty much the way I see it too...the WWII is typically an excellent 40T ATB general purpose blade, but it is the marquis name in this class, and people sometimes expect more because of it. Remove the lettering and its just an excellent 40T ATB general purpose blade...no fairy dust...:D What people often overlook, is that these precision blades have more potential for a cleaner cut, but are also more revealing of all the other variables involved with cutting wood. A setup that's not quite right will mask the capability of a higher precision blade.

It's still possible that this blade has a defect, either from the factory or after the fact. I'm not trying to excuse a defect from a premium supplier, but I think it's premature to make any assumptions about this blade, and especially about all Forrest blades based on this one....they seem to sell a lot of blades, which of course increases the total number of defective ones that escape into use, even if their defect ratio is unchanged from prior years.

(I do find that the Super General and Fusion leave a shinier edge than the others though, but that also makes them even more prone to burning in given situations.)

[Kent A Bathurst]

24 kt solid gold balderdash.

I have Forrest 2 x 10" WWII, 2 x 12" 80t Chopmaster, 1 x 10" 30t WWII, 1 x 10" 80t panel saw, and the dado set. No burning. No problems. None of them anything but excellent. For 12 + years. Your expert reference is some unnamed employee at a some unknown Woodcraft franchise? Does that person have the same extensive experience with the Forrest product as you? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but without any hands-on experience, you aren't necessarily entitled to your own facts.




Forrest WWII BLADES >>>>>R>>>>>>>>OVERRATED:eek:

I have some CMT and Freud blades that cut like butta.




Haven't really heard much good said about Forest blades (here and on WoodNet)


An employee at Woodcraft even steered me away from them:D



JEFF:)

[David Weaver]

I would agree that they're not overrated. I don't use my TS much anymore, but my blades are forrest and freud. the forrest are top notch. The freud are good, too.

The only time I've ever burned anything with a forrest is at a buddy's shop where he was running a negative hook 60t forrest on a 5 horsepower powermatic. You had to really keep the pressure on the material to feed it and keep it moving along skippy. I have no idea why he was running it. It did leave a nice edge, though.

He's running a WWII 40t now, though. I wonder of the QC has gone down a little, there is just a teeny bit of swirling in all of his cuts now, where the WWI had left a glass edge. May also be just because the WWI had less clearance angle.

I wouldn't put too much credence in one WC employee pointing you elsewhere.

[Chris Padilla]

In the end blades are usually a Ford vs Chevy vs Mopar kinda discussion.

Okay, so where is the BMW version? I don't need the Ferrari but BMW would be nice.... :D :p

[Van Huskey]

Okay, so where is the BMW version? I don't need the Ferrari but BMW would be nice.... :D :p


Look to the blades supplied to commercial shops. There are a ton of them and many are extremely nice. The prices don't make sense for me personally since without the big retail price support Freud et al get they tend to be expensive and the suppliers tend to be "no dicker pay the sticker" kinda places. I won't throw out any names since my experience with them is limited but I know there are several pros here among others that use them.


As for the analogy I would say the Forrest and upper level Tenryu/Freud/Infinity are the BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Lexus range but their does exist a Ferrari/Aston Martin/Pagani/Bugatti range of blades.