Changes at Delta?

[Ron Kellison]

There's a rumor floating around on a couple of other forums that Stanley is downsizing Delta to the point that there will only be six machines continuing production. Jointers, contractor saws, bandsaws, most planers and lathes will cease production.

If true, this would be a sad chapter in the history of a great brand!

Regards,

Ron

[Lance Norris]

Dont believe everything you read on the internet

[Phil Thien]

(1) I sure hope it isn't true.

(2) Based on what I've seen happen in other mergers and acquisitions, I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

The problem with U.S. industry in a nutshell: Too many number crunchers, not enough visionaries.

[Van Huskey]

Is it me or has Delta's lineup been significantly reduced in the last few years anyway.

[Myk Rian]

Maybe HF will pick up the dropped lines.

[Mark Ashmeade]

I'm not so sure it's a bad idea, if true.

If closing down production of the listed machines means they would be able to close a factory, the overhead of that factory may well be considerably more than the profit that business unit makes. Thus by selling fewer product lines from a smaller industrial base, they become more profitable. This leads to the ability to invest greater sums in R&D and produce better product. It it were my business, I'd rather make fewer lines and more money out of better products, than more products, but less money and less quality and innovation.

Further, if the exit of one of the players in a market causes less competition, it may drive up the prices in the rest of the market. Thus to re-enter the market in the future, you'd need to come to the table with a better product, and be competitively priced (at the new, higher, price point).

We did something similar at work a couple of years back. We had a division of 20 people making products that lost $1m a year. Now we have three people in that division making $700k a year supporting the fielded products, and no new ones are promoted. The other 17 were redeployed to other divisions. I was very skeptical at the time, but with a couple years' hindsight, it was a bold, but successful decision.

[Dave Lehnert]

Name means absolutely nothing today. The Delta name may go away but the same tool will most likely be made under DeWalt or Porter Cable.

[Paul Wunder]

I saw a similar unfounded and un-sourced rumor on another forum and I asked myself why would someone perhaps injure a company, especially in this economy by repeating what they may have heard. Now the rumor is being posted here. What if several folks here make a different buying decision based on information that is maybe untrue? Negative information cannot be withdrawn.

I prefer to hear my rumors in the form of direct company announcements through the "official" media.

Paul

[Rod Sheridan]

(1) I sure hope it isn't true.

(2) Based on what I've seen happen in other mergers and acquisitions, I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

The problem with U.S. industry in a nutshell: Too many number crunchers, not enough visionaries.

Phil, sentimentality aside, losing Delta wouldn't bother me, just another North American company driven off shore by customers who didn't care where their products were built.

I don't see it as a management issue, I see it as a customer issue. When Delta first when off shore, if we had stopped buying their products and stayed with NA manufacturers, they would either have come back to the US or closed.

Instead we rewarded them by purchasing their off shore products, motivating other companies to adopt this approach.

Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

Jointers, contractor saws, bandsaws, most planers and lathes will cease production.

They pretty much ceased production of these items as far as I'm concerned a decade ago. Selling the generic Taiwanese stuff with your color scheme and logo on it is hardly an industry leading move. Having those items, if this rumor is at all true, go away would hardly affect the industry at all. I see they are releasing a new scroll saw, and the ads talk about getting back to their roots. My older delta shaper has been declared obsolete, which means they no longer support it for parts, which means they have lost me as a customer pretty much for the remainder of my life. Perhaps when I get old and senile I will forget the experience of having a rude CS rep tell me bluntly that I should buy a new machine, that mine is too old, and that I'm on my own as far as finding a new spindle. Funny, I can still get parts for older powermatics? If they are going to operate like that they may as well close.

[Will Overton]

Dont believe everything you read on the internet

Why not?


















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[Mark Woodmark]

(1) I sure hope it isn't true.

(2) Based on what I've seen happen in other mergers and acquisitions, I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

The problem with U.S. industry in a nutshell: Too many number crunchers, not enough visionaries.

It all about the money....nothing else

[Mark Woodmark]

Phil, sentimentality aside, losing Delta wouldn't bother me, just another North American company driven off shore by customers who didn't care where their products were built.

I don't see it as a management issue, I see it as a customer issue. When Delta first when off shore, if we had stopped buying their products and stayed with NA manufacturers, they would either have come back to the US or closed.

Instead we rewarded them by purchasing their off shore products, motivating other companies to adopt this approach.

Regards, Rod.

Its all about the money.....nothing else

[Will Overton]

It all about the money....nothing else

Isn't that what a for profit business is supposed to be about?

[Anthony Whitesell]

Didn't Porter-Cable just buy Delta? I seem to recall a rebranding of Delta by someone. If so, I can imagine that techinically some Delta machines may stop being labelled as Delta and instead made under the Porter-Cable label instead. So techinically, yes, some Delta (labelled) machines may stop production. And I would imagine any that were duplicated by the original P-C line would also end. As for reducing the Delta line-up beyond that, we'll all have to wait and see.

[Mark Woodmark]

I saw a similar unfounded and un-sourced rumor on another forum and I asked myself why would someone perhaps injure a company, especially in this economy by repeating what they may have heard. Now the rumor is being posted here. What if several folks here make a different buying decision based on information that is maybe untrue? Negative information cannot be withdrawn.

I prefer to hear my rumors in the form of direct company announcements through the "official" media.

Paul

Im sure they will disclose this to the public in a timely manner. Its all about the money....nothing else

[Bruce Wrenn]

Delta name disappearing? Have you been in a Lowes lately and noticed the JUNK being marketed under the Porter Cable name? Drill press, 14" band saw, which used to be Delta products.

[Steve Mellott]

The new Delta midi lathe has been getting great reviews from the woodturners in the Atlanta area. Several of them were actually asked by Delta for their ideas before Delta completed the lathe design and Delta actually included several of those ideas in the final design. Many of these turners think that the Delta Miidi Lathe is superior to both the Rikon and Jet mini/midi lathes.

[Stephen Cherry]

I have some delta machines that I like, but I think they were made in the 1960's.

I used to have a unisaw, made in the 1990's.

[Mark Woodmark]

I'm not so sure it's a bad idea, if true.

If closing down production of the listed machines means they would be able to close a factory, the overhead of that factory may well be considerably more than the profit that business unit makes. Thus by selling fewer product lines from a smaller industrial base, they become more profitable. This leads to the ability to invest greater sums in R&D and produce better product. It it were my business, I'd rather make fewer lines and more money out of better products, than more products, but less money and less quality and innovation.

Further, if the exit of one of the players in a market causes less competition, it may drive up the prices in the rest of the market. Thus to re-enter the market in the future, you'd need to come to the table with a better product, and be competitively priced (at the new, higher, price point).

We did something similar at work a couple of years back. We had a division of 20 people making products that lost $1m a year. Now we have three people in that division making $700k a year supporting the fielded products, and no new ones are promoted. The other 17 were redeployed to other divisions. I was very skeptical at the time, but with a couple years' hindsight, it was a bold, but successful decision.

The idea (not mine) is to replace the higher paid skilled worker with anyone off the street. Not needing an experienced worker allows for lower wages and high turnover. The better idea is to replace the skilled worker with technology thus no one needs to be paid. The problem with this is that kind of technology is a major investment and the ROI isnt there. How do you compete with a country who has the largest population on the planet willing apply 100% to the products quality and work long hours for very low wages? I have a friend who is setting up a factory in China. He can purchase raw materials in the USA, ship it to China, produce his goods there, and ship the finished product back to a customer in the U S cheaper than producing the same product from the same raw materials here and selling it to the same customer here. Its all about the money....nothing else

[Will Overton]

Didn't Porter-Cable just buy Delta? I seem to recall a rebranding of Delta by someone. If so, I can imagine that techinically some Delta machines may stop being labelled as Delta and instead made under the Porter-Cable label instead. So techinically, yes, some Delta (labelled) machines may stop production. And I would imagine any that were duplicated by the original P-C line would also end. As for reducing the Delta line-up beyond that, we'll all have to wait and see.

Actually, Stanley Tool Works recently bought Black and Decker. Black and Decker already owned Delta and Porter Cable.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark,

It's a concept some people have a difficult time to accept.

It's called capitalism where by a group of people put some money together and form a company. The purpose of that company is to make profit.

Companies that don't make a profit take on a status called bankrupt which typically means they go out of business.

What causes a company to become unprofitable is a wide range of things including taxes, labor costs, environmental laws, costs of materials and the list goes on.

Think about this for a minute. A company DOES NOT want to put skilled workers out of work. When you do that, you lose people who can buy your product. On the other hand, if a company continues to operate with a loss and goes bankrupt...everybody in the company loses including the people who have invested their money in the company.

You are right it's about making money...profit.....You are wrong when you say a company's goal is to put skilled workers out of work. That isn't nor has it ever been a copany's goal.

[Phil Thien]

Think about this for a minute. A company DOES NOT want to put skilled workers out of work. When you do that, you lose people who can buy your product. On the other hand, if a company continues to operate with a loss and goes bankrupt...everybody in the company loses including the people who have invested their money in the company.


That is the catch-22.

Individually, it makes sense for each company to replace higher-priced labor with a less expensive alternative.

Collectively, markets are eliminated.

[Mark Woodmark]

Mark,

It's a concept some people have a difficult time to accept.

It's called capitalism where by a group of people put some money together and form a company. The purpose of that company is to make profit.

Companies that don't make a profit take on a status called bankrupt which typically means they go out of business.

What causes a company to become unprofitable is a wide range of things including taxes, labor costs, environmental laws, costs of materials and the list goes on.

Think about this for a minute. A company DOES NOT want to put skilled workers out of work. When you do that, you lose people who can buy your product. On the other hand, if a company continues to operate with a loss and goes bankrupt...everybody in the company loses including the people who have invested their money in the company.

You are right it's about making money...profit.....You are wrong when you say a company's goal is to put skilled workers out of work. That isn't nor has it ever been a copany's goal.

Capitalism is a wonderful system when it works correctly. IMO there is no better system in the world. There was a reason our founding fathers instilled a system of checks and balances. They knew the nature of humankind and their desire for wealth and power. Whether a company is running in the red or just would like to increase profits is something debatable and most wont know. Sometimes liquidation is more lucrative than the alternatives. In the global marketplace a manufacturer may not need the US market to be profitable thus the unemployed American needs not to be entity to sell to.....connect the dots. Maybe we should relinquish manufacturing to countries like China, since we cant seem to compete with them and concentrate on businesses we can compete at. Not all of Corporate America is greedy, but the small number of greedy companies seems to be increasing. This is disturbing. My question is how does all this make us a better society? I agree, the objective is not to put the American worker out on the street. The objective is to increase profits and if the higher paid American worker is one of the things impeding this, well its not personal, its just good business and unfortunately that worker is just the bystander being hit by the collateral damage of the thing. If there was a political area for this hijacked thread, it probably should be moved there or stopped altogether. I take blame for hijacking it....so sorry

[Peter Aeschliman]

What causes a company to become unprofitable is a wide range of things including taxes, labor costs, environmental laws, costs of materials and the list goes on.

Assuming Delta is even actually in trouble, one could argue that Delta going from profitable to unprofitable is due to a poor value proposition... Sure, labor costs and taxes can play a role, but I don't think that's the root problem here (again, assuming this isn't just a rumor).

Aside from the new unisaw, delta has not been innovative. They chose a cost-cutting strategy, sent their production overseas, sacrificed product quality, and kept their prices higher than competitors with like products (Grizzly for example).

I can't see myself buying a single one of their machines because they are (in my opinion) generally average quality with high prices. Take the DJ-20 8" parallelogram jointer as an example. It retails for around $1,900. It's nearly identical to the Grizzly G0490, which retails for $800. Both manufactured overseas, very similar specs.

You can't stay in business too long if you're offering the same product for 60% higher prices than your competitors.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark,

I think you and I had both better back off as we are rapidly approaching political discussions which are not allowed at SawMillCreek.

[Mark Woodmark]

Mark,

I think you and I had both better back off as we are rapidly approaching political discussions which are not allowed at SawMillCreek.

Ken,
I agree completely and as I stated previously, I take responsibility for hijacking this thread. Once again, I am sorry

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'll be frank.

I have a hard time accepting threads like this.

Think about this for a minute.

The OP starts this thread stating there is a RUMOR on several websites that Delta is being downsized. Keep in mind, a lot of the information found on the internet is far from being accurate........

So John Doe decides he isn't going to buy Delta cause they must be going under because they are down sizing their product line.

In the current economic environment, I would hate to see a company pay an economic penalty for an Internet RUMOR.

Most companies have press releases that detail such information and justify their decisions in the process. IF there is such in the works, I am sure we'll hear about it.

These types of threads without verification do more harm than good IMHO.

They are just gossip and gossip hurts.

[Van Huskey]

Aside from the new unisaw, delta has not been innovative.

I think this is one of the keys to why I rarely consider new Delta. Lets face it every machine importer in the hobby market competes with Grizzly and for most people it seems you have to offer more than a warranty that is 5 times as long and local dealers to command the higher price. Even IF the quality of the components are higher than Grizzly if you don't see it either when you look at them or in day to day use it means little or nothing. There are two machines that I can say I feel Delta has been innovative on that being the new Unisaw and the Midi lathe.

I think WMH has done a better job with the market from a consumers point of view. They have two distinct lines branded with machine manufacturer names. They aquired the Performax brand and now "own" the entry to mid level drum sander market. There are few "wow" machines in their line but the Jet prices are closer to Grizzly but still have dealer support and a 5 year warranty. Then you have the PM line, whine if you will about the demise of the Gold Standard brand value but 99.9% of us wouldn't be buying it new anyway if it were the old PM, been to any of your WWing buddies houses to help him set up a new Northfield lately? PM has brought out some truely innovative machines that set them apart from the "clone" manufacturers. The PM1800, PM2000, PM2800, PM2700, PM3520B, PJ-882 and even to some extent the 14CS are different products with differences both subtle and large that differentiate them from the clone machines. One can decide they do not feel the differences are worth THIER money but these are machines that one can't say only the paint is different. (Maybe the 14CS since it difference is accessories instead of the meat of the machine.) Further, WMH consistently moves their stuff with sales, there is a constant buzz around their machines associated with the sales.

As for Delta I think if they reduce their lineup BUT have that lineup consist of mainly non-clone machines they could come back up on my radar. The one machine they have that I would be interested in can been found in the Grizzly catalog in green and white for about 30% less. Interestingly I have found one machine Delta dollar for dollar beats and that is the 16/32 sander, the Delta can be had shipped liftgate for $999 or a little less the "same" machine from Grizzly with liftgate is ~$25 more and if memory serves the Delta include a couple of value added items.

This all said I hope Delta stays a strong force in the machine market. I for one would like to see them get leaner and meaner and put out some products that make me say "hmmm that indeed may be worth the extra money".

[Van Huskey]

I'll be frank.

I have a hard time accepting threads like this.

Think about this for a minute.

The OP starts this thread stating there is a RUMOR on several websites that Delta is being downsized. Keep in mind, a lot of the information found on the internet is far from being accurate........

So John Doe decides he isn't going to buy Delta cause they must be going under because they are down sizing their product line.

In the current economic environment, I would hate to see a company pay an economic penalty for an Internet RUMOR.

Most companies have press releases that detail such information and justify their decisions in the process. IF there is such in the works, I am sure we'll hear about it.

These types of threads without verification do more harm than good IMHO.

They are just gossip and gossip hurts.


First, I agree with you 100%. Second, I think companies are behind the times when it comes to managing the internet, if I posted a similar rumor about oh say Grizzly how many hours do you think it would take for my rumor if false to be laid to rest by an "official" of Grizzly? Some companies get it some don't care. Case in point the head of one machine importer has told me face to face they are aware of forum "issues" they have but have chosen NOT to address them.

In the end if the RUMOR is indeed true I think it may be a positive for Delta depending on how it actually works on the ground. A smaller lineup of truely top flight tools would be of far more interest to me than their current lineup.

[John Fabre]

We are doing it to ourselfs.

[Dar Lounsbury]

Name means absolutely nothing today. The Delta name may go away but the same tool will most likely be made under DeWalt or Porter Cable.

Oh joy. I look forward to the Black & Decker Unisaw. 1/2 hp motor, plastic fence and wheels. Table top cast aluminum.

Would make the low end stuff out of China look real good.

[John Coloccia]

They pretty much ceased production of these items as far as I'm concerned a decade ago. Selling the generic Taiwanese stuff with your color scheme and logo on it is hardly an industry leading move. Having those items, if this rumor is at all true, go away would hardly affect the industry at all. I see they are releasing a new scroll saw, and the ads talk about getting back to their roots. My older delta shaper has been declared obsolete, which means they no longer support it for parts, which means they have lost me as a customer pretty much for the remainder of my life. Perhaps when I get old and senile I will forget the experience of having a rude CS rep tell me bluntly that I should buy a new machine, that mine is too old, and that I'm on my own as far as finding a new spindle. Funny, I can still get parts for older powermatics? If they are going to operate like that they may as well close.

Exactly. I now own one Delta tool: a drill press. I would have replaced it by now but I'm waiting to see what Grizzly comes up with. It's a truly dreadful tool. Getting rid of everything except the Unisaw sounds like a good move to since it's the only thing they make reliably and well, IMHO. Everything else can be had for much cheaper elsewhere, and with far better customer service. If the rumor's true, it sound like a good move to me.

[Kent A Bathurst]

....I have a hard time accepting threads like this.....The OP starts this thread stating there is a RUMOR on several websites that Delta is being downsized. Keep in mind, a lot of the information found on the internet is far from being accurate........I would hate to see a company pay an economic penalty for an Internet RUMOR.

Ken - I agree, up to a certain point. "Don't believe everything you read" was solid-gold gospel BEFORE there was an internet - even more so now. If a fella somewhere makes a major tool decision based on some crap floating around on the internet, he's gonna have a long, hard road in more areas than woodworking, I'm afraid, and he deserves it. I have taken many specific positive or negative actions based on discussions here at SMC, but certainly not with everything I read. I think I have a pretty good feel for the credentials of a number of folks, and will ride their horses. The other guys may be on-target, but I don't "know" them, at least not yet.

RE: domestic content - balderdash, IMO. Find the correct spot on the price/quality/features matrix and buy that item. Sometimes that means taking a deep breath and paying the price, sometimes it is lower on the price curve, sometimes it means not getting certain features because they simply would not come into play enough for me to pay that premium, sometimes it means I leave a higher quality item out of the picture because something else will do what I need. Companies will be successful if they offer the products people want to buy - and there is a market for the "made in USA" label, which they should certainly be considering in their strategic planning.

I have been very happy with my offshore PM60A, Delta 14" BS, Unisaw. If I was going to buy a new TS today, it would be the Uni. I had a garden-variety Delta DP which did a fine job for me, but decided to upgrade features, and bought a 1985 PM1150 VS. I did not choose that one because it was domestic, I got it because it landed in a preferred spot on my decision matrix, versus the PM2800 [which had a lower delivered cost].

[David Weaver]

Exactly. I now own one Delta tool: a drill press. I would have replaced it by now but I'm waiting to see what Grizzly comes up with. It's a truly dreadful tool. Getting rid of everything except the Unisaw sounds like a good move to since it's the only thing they make reliably and well, IMHO. Everything else can be had for much cheaper elsewhere, and with far better customer service. If the rumor's true, it sound like a good move to me.

Dittos to you guys. When I first got into WW, I bought the delta hybrid. Other than the bies fence, is' a very plain and probably below average chinese saw - pretty much near or at allowable tolerance everywhere (hollow front to back .01"+, .002+ runout at the arbor flange, near .01" runout at the end of the saw plate, and on and on).

They've been sitting on their name and riding it for a long time - making it out like there's some extra several hundred dollars in their imported goods because of the brand name while, in my opinion, Jet and powermatic have been eating their lunch when it comes to import quality control.

Someone else will buy the brand if it craps out.

[Curt Harms]

(1) I sure hope it isn't true.

(2) Based on what I've seen happen in other mergers and acquisitions, I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

The problem with U.S. industry in a nutshell: Too many number crunchers, not enough visionaries.

You said a mouthful there, Phil.

[David Weaver]

There's another issue, and that's that we think we're buying tools that are professional tools. Those have moved on. Professional tools now are loaded with order information from the enterprise order system and go through order lists on their own with an operator loading stock in them.

We're buying what are hobbyist tools, with a few people who make a living still using them for custom and one-off work.

We're also buying them at what is probably 1/4th of the inflation adjusted cost of them when they were professional tools. Lowest price is king, and perceived value is some percentage above that for more features, and not some multiple.

I think my Delta hybrid say might say "professional" on the front, but the huge CHINA stamped on the crate was a lot more instructive.

[Gene Howe]

Atlas is shrugging.

[Will Overton]

There's a rumor floating around on a couple of other forums that Stanley is downsizing Delta to the point that there will only be six machines continuing production. Jointers, contractor saws, bandsaws, most planers and lathes will cease production.

If true, this would be a sad chapter in the history of a great brand!

Regards,

Ron

I tried a Google search on Delta's downsizing. I could only find one reference on the FineWoodworking forum. The poster said "I just heard" but never mentioned where he heard. He was asked to substantiate, but hasn't shown up.

If you go to Delta's website they have a picture of six tools that says, "Delta Launches A New Family of Tools". It's a pretty big stretch from that to "Delta is discontinuing most of their products".

Gotta love the internet for spreading rumors. :rolleyes:

[Jerome Hanby]

I understand what you are saying, but on the flip side, if I'm about to buy a jointer, I'd rather pick Grizzly or Powermatic based on a false rumor of Delta's demise than go with the Delta and find out 6 months later that it's been dropped.


I saw a similar unfounded and un-sourced rumor on another forum and I asked myself why would someone perhaps injure a company, especially in this economy by repeating what they may have heard. Now the rumor is being posted here. What if several folks here make a different buying decision based on information that is maybe untrue? Negative information cannot be withdrawn.

I prefer to hear my rumors in the form of direct company announcements through the "official" media.

Paul

[Matt Meiser]

Why? Based on most reports, including ones heard first-hand from a Delta dealer, they are doing a pretty poor job of supporting their tools anyway for the past several years. I experienced that twice in recent years having to wait weeks for warranty parts on a Biesemeyer fence after they obliterated Biesemeyer and on missing parts for a machine. They also wiped out their parts inventory for old equipment and stopped supporting them. If you are buying Delta for the support, you're buying for the wrong reason.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jerome,

Suppose I start a "rumor" on the internet about you personally and it effects your life or livelyhood, would you change your attitude?

It's gossip ......drivel.....unproven rumors and nobody or a company should have to pay a price for that kind garbage.

Has it dawned on you that maybe it's a Delta competitor that started this whole RUMOR to effect their ability to compete with Delta?

Think about it.......the internet is the biggest source of misinformation in the world today because anybody can post anything without any validity to their post.

Beyond that....question when you see someone make a strong statement for or against a company or product. In some cases, people have reason to be strongly for or against something, some company etc. and can back up their statement with evidence. Sometimes, however, that person is a little off "kilter" .....has a skewed sense of right/wrong.....isn't being objective.

An example.....we have a lot of folks post here that have "0" experience using a particular type of woodworking tool. In one recent case, the guy buys a new tool....it didn't work as he thought it should.....he's here bad mouthing the tool...the company......and he's making major modifications to the tool....and the modifications made were STUPID. So....should the company suffer because of this consumers arrogance and stupidity? It was a brand new tool and the company is KNOWN for good customer service. After reading that post, if I was the company I would have refused to honor the guys warrantee because of the modifications....and the guy had not even called the company's tech support yet.........think about it.......

These type of threads are destructive and have very little value.

[John Callahan]

These type of threads are destructive and have very little value.

I'd agree ......... without a source it's hardly worth the 0's and 1's it was printed with. No question in my mind that Delta (and PC) have been on a roller coaster ride the last few years but if the new Uni and the 18-900L drill press are indications of what's to come, I'm looking forward to it.

Got a good look at 18-900L a few weeks ago at the Seven Corners tool show. Some very nice features and excellent fit and finish.

[Van Huskey]

I frequent many car forums and a post like this would be met by several or many one word posts: "Source?" until such time as a source is named every one treats it like simply an academic exercise with no real weight. The car industry is rife with rumor, rumor and spy photos are an entire industry in and of itself, in part fostered by the car companies who pretend to shun it, rumor gets them press and buzz, however they are good at managing it in print and on the internet. In the end even in that atmosphere I rarely see anyones actual buying choices significantly altered.

If I had planned to buy a Delta machine tomorrow this would not change my mind in the least, in fact it might hasten my purchase. I would have taken a pause IF the rumor was Delta was going out of business but without a decent source it would have only been a minute long pause. There are literally hundreds of posts a day on this forum that influence peoples buying decisions some a little and some a lot but it mainly comes down to credibility. People who are willing to change their buying decision based on a post like the OP are just as likely to buy a machine because the color matches the drapes in their house. I will continue to be aware of this potential story since I am one that thinks it might be a significant positive for Delta, a smaller line up built around the type of innovation that produced the new Unisaw and the current VS Midi lathe would certainly have products that interest me as it stands there isn't anything else in their lineup that is of any real interest to me.

[Jerome Hanby]

Jerome,

Suppose I start a "rumor" on the internet about you personally and it effects your life or livelyhood, would you change your attitude?

That one is pretty easy, no it would not change my attitude at all. IF (that's a big if) the Internet effects my livelihood, then a big part of my job better be to keep track of the buzz going around and address it as necessary. To carry me past any misleading rumors that I miss, I need to have such a good standing in the community that customers will actively contact me with concerns if they see such a rumor.

I have zero interest in new Delta equipment and I'm taking statements made here at face value, but it sounds like Delta has damaged their standing in the community with their customer service and the merry-go-round of ownership changes and they are not actively trying to quell "bad" Internet rumors.

A hypothetical situation, if the buzz was that Festool had been purchased by the xxxx and all their production was being relocated to Indonesia, no one would believe it, Festool would get a ton of inquires, and every where Festool has an Internet presence would be refuting the rumor.

[Cody Colston]

These types of threads without verification do more harm than good IMHO. They are just gossip and gossip hurts.

I agree. It seems woodworking forums, especially when it comes to tool manufacturers and their products, are nothing but rumor mills and full of unsubstantiated opinions.

There's always some tool snobs, too and this site seems to have a lot of them. If it wasn't made before 1960, and doesn't weigh a couple of tons, it's junk. If it's made in Asia, it's junk. If it isn't green and made in Germany, it's junk. No matter that many of these people NEVER show or even talk of what they make...if they actually make anything. Frankly, I'm tired of reading their lame crap.

I have a news flash for all of them...it ain't the arrows, dudes, it's the Indian! There are people on this very site who could make fine furniture with nothing but a pocket knife given enough time much less using "inferior" Asian-made tools. They don't just talk a good game but actually produce woodworking projects to validate what they say. You can bet that I have a lot more faith in their opinions than I do in the BS talkers only. BTW, the "Woodworking Projects" forum is where you can view (ore even post...what a novel idea) actual woodworking vs just talking about it.

Stanley, Black & Decker, Delta, Dewalt, and Porter-Cable are all under one umbrella now. It doesn't make sense for each brand to duplicate the products of the other. I don't pretend to know how it will work out but I'm sure some of the brands will become consumer quality while others will be commercial quality. Some of them (and their products) will likely disappear.

So what? There are other manufacturers and brands to choose from across a very wide range of price and quality. If there is a market, there will always be someone to supply that demand.

I expect that if you have nothing better to do than lament over a rumor of Delta downsizing their product line, you are probably more talker/tool collector than actual woodworker.

Like Dennis Miller, "that's just my opinion and I could be wrong"...but I don't think so.

[Mark Ashmeade]

I agree. It seems woodworking forums, especially when it comes to tool manufacturers and their products, are nothing but rumor mills and full of unsubstantiated opinions.

There's always some tool snobs, too and this site seems to have a lot of them. If it wasn't made before 1960, and doesn't weigh a couple of tons, it's junk. If it's made in Asia, it's junk. If it isn't green and made in Germany, it's junk. No matter that many of these people NEVER show or even talk of what they make...if they actually make anything. Frankly, I'm tired of reading their lame crap.

I have a news flash for all of them...it ain't the arrows, dudes, it's the Indian! There are people on this very site who could make fine furniture with nothing but a pocket knife given enough time much less using "inferior" Asian-made tools. They don't just talk a good game but actually produce woodworking projects to validate what they say. You can bet that I have a lot more faith in their opinions than I do in the BS talkers only. BTW, the "Woodworking Projects" forum is where you can view (ore even post...what a novel idea) actual woodworking vs just talking about it.

Stanley, Black & Decker, Delta, Dewalt, and Porter-Cable are all under one umbrella now. It doesn't make sense for each brand to duplicate the products of the other. I don't pretend to know how it will work out but I'm sure some of the brands will become consumer quality while others will be commercial quality. Some of them (and their products) will likely disappear.

So what? There are other manufacturers and brands to choose from across a very wide range of price and quality. If there is a market, there will always be someone to supply that demand.

I expect that if you have nothing better to do than lament over a rumor of Delta downsizing their product line, you are probably more talker/tool collector than actual woodworker.

Like Dennis Miller, "that's just my opinion and I could be wrong"...but I don't think so.

Wise words.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> Didn't Porter-Cable just buy Delta? I seem to recall a rebranding of Delta by someone.

No, Pentair used to own both Delta and Porter Cable. Pentair was sold to Black & Decker. Black and Decker's power tool business was bought within the past couple of years by Stanley Works.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Just to interject - Applause to everyone, BTW.

A solid, philosophical exchange of views and ideas without trash. Always happy to talk with, and listen to, intelligent people with viewpoints that may be different than mine. Veered toward the edge briefly, as Ken noted, but was never headed there with the throttle to the firewall.

[Kevin Womer]

I saw a similar unfounded and un-sourced rumor on another forum and I asked myself why would someone perhaps injure a company, especially in this economy by repeating what they may have heard. Now the rumor is being posted here. What if several folks here make a different buying decision based on information that is maybe untrue? Negative information cannot be withdrawn.

I prefer to hear my rumors in the form of direct company announcements through the "official" media.

Paul

Well said. I remember the Steel City rumors and wonder how many people thought twice about buying one of their tools? I for one am glad I did buy two of their products and their customer servive is second to none in my opinion. People shouldn't believe everything they read and need to consider the source. I like Delta products and have been very happy with one of their contractors saws I had a few years ago.

[Mark Maleski]

The new Delta midi lathe has been getting great reviews from the woodturners in the Atlanta area.

I have that lathe, and love it. It's more machine than the Jet and Rikon (has more power and more features) but is, as you'd expect, also more expensive. The Jet and Rikon surely would've been fine, but I opted to spend more to get the Delta. It was recently rated best choice in a FWW review if you value such things (I don't).

I was also well served by the Delta customer service. I did a dumb thing and damaged the spindle threads (don't ask). The lathe worked OK with the damage but I wanted it back like new. They sent the part to me more quickly than promised (it was backordered), and when I realized I needed a second part to swap out the spindle they sent it with no charge.

So I bought a quality Delta machine from a local store (Woodcraft) that let me compare it against the other competing lathes, and experienced good customer service when I needed it...what's not to like?

[Justin Bukoski]

Funny, I've been furiously saving my pennies for one of those lathes and this rumor had me wondering if I could buy it sooner than I planned. Cuts both ways I guess...

[Chas Richter]

Jackson Saw and Knife in Rochester NY has been selling Delta for a long time. One of the the salesmen three weeks ago said that Delta is exiting the cabinet saw market entirely. How many guys spending $3k on a saw are going to choose the new Unisaw over a sawstop? They prob wish Steve Gass never took up woodworking.

[Will Overton]

One of the the salesmen three weeks ago said that Delta is exiting the cabinet saw market entirely.

Then it must be true. :D

[Van Huskey]

Then it must be true. :D

Many machine salesmen are right up there with car salemen when it comes to industry and product knowledge. Like one recently that had no idea what a split head drill press was and acted like I was an idiot for caring if a DP had one or not.

[Chas Richter]

The guy at Jackson Saw said he was told that by a Delta rep. Sure, he could have just made it up, but he certainly did not seem happy about it.

[Myk Rian]

Delta lost many engineers to Steel City years ago. Now they've gone to General.
If Delta doesn't have the talent they used to have, they can't design the machines like they used to.

[Van Huskey]

Delta lost many engineers to Steel City years ago. Now they've gone to General.
If Delta doesn't have the talent they used to have, they can't design the machines like they used to.


While the former is true and I am already beginning to see the positive effect on General's line the latter doesn't make a lot of sense to me. In this economy there has got to be a glut of extremely talented engineers that have strong backgrounds in wood/metal machines looking for jobs, I would think if they need engineers all Delta has to do is open the front door and process the line forming. The again our curse and salvation is the fact that today just as many money "engineers" work on a product line as "real" engineers. I would say that Delta/Porter Cable/Dewalt didn't look like they were hurting at IWF, they had lots of new product and had a very strong show. I do think the Delta line is unfocused and could use a lot of tweaking, they have new modern designs mixed with "ancient" Asian copy type machines and glaring holes in their line that leave even the most devout Delta fan boy with no choice but to look elsewhere. If there is a grain of truth in the rumor I hope and truely think it will be a focusing of the lineup and they will be better for it. Time will tell. In reality I would be much more concerned currently about support for a Sawstop 20 years from now than support for a current generation Uni because from a support standpoint I see the SS like a modern computer driven car compared to the Uni which I see as a 1960's American car, even if the part doesn't exist in replacement or NOS a good machine shop can make one...

[John Coloccia]

In reality I would be much more concerned currently about support for a Sawstop 20 years from now than support for a current generation Uni because from a support standpoint I see the SS like a modern computer driven car compared to the Uni which I see as a 1960's American car, even if the part doesn't exist in replacement or NOS a good machine shop can make one...

If SS went belly up, it would be trivial to rewire the motor to a magnetic switch, and it would STILL be at least as nice as the Uni. LOL. :p

Hey, look. There's nothing wrong with Delta/Porter Cable/Dewalt/whatever except that they have a very confusing and inconsistent product line. There was a time when you could buy a Porter Cable anything and have a decent product. Ditto for Delta. Now you don't know. That drives me to other sources because I just don't have all day to sit around and read reviews on 15 different brands, that are all probably made in the same factory, to figure out which one has the plastic gears and which one has the good bearings.

The fact that we all accept the Delta brand as mostly cheaply made, overseas tools speaks volumes. What they should do, IMHO, is dump everything but the Uni, rebrand themselves Delta USA and move on from there. PorterWalt & Decker can pick up the rest. If you're going to own multiple brands, at least one of them should be some sort of flagship, shouldn't it?

[Van Huskey]

If SS went belly up, it would be trivial to rewire the motor to a magnetic switch, and it would STILL be at least as nice as the Uni. LOL. :p



IMO if that SS is an ICS you are exactly right, actually it would be better, if it is a PCS then I would beg to differ, loudly. Without the brake it is an equally well designed and built machine but in the end it is smaller and lighter than the Uni.

I agree 100% on their lineup we have very similar opinions about it. Unfortunately, with any of the Asian import machines we have to buy the tool not the brand, the exception being SS but they only make TS. I would say of the full line Asian import brands the best one across the entire line is PM but the value proposition is lacking in a lot of their line, for example you don't see many new PM sanders in hobby shops.

[ed vitanovec]

I just saw an advertisement from Woodworkers supply on Delta's new scroll saw, a re-badged Dewalt.

[John Coloccia]

I just looked it up. This is exactly what I mean. All the product lines have become confusing. It's cheaper than the Dewalt when you consider that most sell the Dewalt for $550 and the stand and light are extra. Of course, Grizzly's been selling the Dewalt combo for less than $500 shipped for a while now. Anyhow, I wonder who will be the first to actually take two of these saws apart and look for the cheap parts, or maybe yellow paint is worth an extra $50 - $100?

[Will Overton]

Since I can't find the source right now, you'll have to take this as internet gossip. I also can't recall whether it was announced before or after Stanley Tool Works came into the mix.

There was an announcement awhile back concerning the tool line up for the various brands. It went something like this.

Delta = commercial grade stationary tools
DeWalt = commercial grade hand held power tools
Porter Cable = high end homeowner/hobbyist stationary and hand helds. [think Ryobi]
Black and Decker = value priced homeowner tools.

This was said to be put in motion as a gradual transition, unlike when Black and Decker put yellow housings on their entire "Black and Decker Commercial Line" and changed the name to DeWalt. This was a good move at the time because many/most people didn't recognize that B&D had to distinct lines of tools.


Currently on the Delta website it says that the Porter Cable tools are available at Lowes, and independent hardware and tool stores. That's close to the deal Home Depot has with Ryobi. Another announcement awhile back was that Home Depot was to be the only national "Home Center" selling Milwaukee.

It seems like the big box stores continue to want tool brands associated with the store name. The tool manufactures are hedging their bets by not giving in to total exclusivity. I love competition. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the link below, Stanley Black and Decker, refer to DeWalt products as Industrial and Porter Cable as Professional.

http://www.stanleyblackanddecker.com/products-services/construction-diy/power-tools

[james gerus]

Delta, Porter Cable, Dewalt plus many more are part of StanleyBlack&Decker.
Jim Gerus

[Paul Johnstone]

Phil, sentimentality aside, losing Delta wouldn't bother me, just another North American company driven off shore by customers who didn't care where their products were built.

I don't see it as a management issue, I see it as a customer issue. When Delta first when off shore, if we had stopped buying their products and stayed with NA manufacturers, they would either have come back to the US or closed.

Instead we rewarded them by purchasing their off shore products, motivating other companies to adopt this approach.

Regards, Rod.

Yep, I remember when the imports started coming in. I remember a specific thread about joiners.. The guy said that the import machine probably wasn't as good as the USA made Delta, but he'd rather save $50, since the import was probably good enough.

That line of thinking by consumers pretty much doomed US manufacturers.
His perception was that the US made Delta was better (whether it is true or not, I'm not here to argue), yet he still made his decision based on a relatively small price difference.

Delta moved to China to compete, and then everyone started saying that Delta was the same machine as Brand X, just had a different paint color (Again, it doesn't matter whether this is true or not, that's the perception of many consumers).

[Paul Johnstone]

Think about this for a minute. A company DOES NOT want to put skilled workers out of work..

They want to put skilled workers out of work.
Most of the growth in profitablity by companies in the last 10 years is a direct result of reducing labor costs.
They replace skilled workers with unskilled workers, cheaper offshore labor, or machines.. Or they get rid of one skilled worker and make his colleague do two jobs for the same pay.

Companies no longer look at the big picture. That's why we have such high unemployment now, and probably will for the forseeable future. In the past, the assumption was that a recession would eventually end and companies would start hiring again. That's no longer the case. In good times and bad times, companies are focusing on reducing labor costs. Those jobs that have vanished from coorporations during this recession aren't likely to come back.

[Ron Kellison]

Jerome,

Suppose I start a "rumor" on the internet about you personally and it effects your life or livelyhood, would you change your attitude?

It's gossip ......drivel.....unproven rumors and nobody or a company should have to pay a price for that kind garbage.

Has it dawned on you that maybe it's a Delta competitor that started this whole RUMOR to effect their ability to compete with Delta?

Think about it.......the internet is the biggest source of misinformation in the world today because anybody can post anything without any validity to their post.

Beyond that....question when you see someone make a strong statement for or against a company or product. In some cases, people have reason to be strongly for or against something, some company etc. and can back up their statement with evidence. Sometimes, however, that person is a little off "kilter" .....has a skewed sense of right/wrong.....isn't being objective.

An example.....we have a lot of folks post here that have "0" experience using a particular type of woodworking tool. In one recent case, the guy buys a new tool....it didn't work as he thought it should.....he's here bad mouthing the tool...the company......and he's making major modifications to the tool....and the modifications made were STUPID. So....should the company suffer because of this consumers arrogance and stupidity? It was a brand new tool and the company is KNOWN for good customer service. After reading that post, if I was the company I would have refused to honor the guys warrantee because of the modifications....and the guy had not even called the company's tech support yet.........think about it.......

These type of threads are destructive and have very little value.

I'm sorry I brought it up. From now on I'll judiciously try to verify my facts before I post any gossip. I will try to believe only those things I see in company press releases.