Basic Furniture design question

[Larry Browning]

I have noticed that most built-in cabinets like kitchen cabinets and shop cabinets use drawer slide hardware, but furniture cabinets like dressers and armoires do not use hardware slides. Why is this? This just makes me go, hmmmmm?

Larry

[Bob Hovde]

Actually, most of my "new" furniture drawers have hidden slides - the kind that run under the drawer. You can't pull them out quite as far, but they work fairly well. You're right about the "old" furniture - There are just wooden rails for the drawers to slide on. They have even more limited pull-out capability before they start to fall out. I would guess that the design factors are 1. furniture drawers usually don't carry as heavy a load and 2. furniture drawers don't have to be pulled out as far to get to things in the back.

Bob

[Mark Singer]

I like the guides on production quality drawers...they work very well. On a hand dovetailed drawer the metal guides don't belong! They mask the handwork and are out of place.

[John Gregory]

Like the others said, how your drawer slides out of the carcass depends on function and form. Kitchen cabinets are more utility, have heavy loads and I would always use full extension slides on them. Night stands, dressers, etc have lighter loads and are seen more as fine furniture. Woodslides would do for them. However one can build a beautiful piece of furniture and still use full extension slides for the functionality they provide.

Those are just my thoughts.

John

[Alan Turner]

Except on shop cabs, etc., I do not use slide extensions. Nothing can duplicate the feel of a wood drawer, well fitted.

Alan (sometimes wrong, never in doubt)

[Earl Kelly]

Although I never use Glides on my fine furniture. You can use the Blum Tandem on dovetail drawer construction and almost never know it's there. The glide is completely under the drawer and just slightly visible at the cabinet sides. This is the only glide I use on entertainment centers etc.

[Lamar Horton]

Nothing can duplicate the feel of a wood drawer, well fitted.

Alan (sometimes wrong, never in doubt)
I second this.

I also have seen some older kitchen cabs with wood runners. Probably 50s or 60s era.

[Larry Browning]

All this is good info, but the WHY hasn't been addressed yet. I think that Mark may have hit on one point about hiding dovetail handwork. But if you use the under drawer guides these are hidden. I think this question goes back to the perception that using metal fasteners in fine furniture is somehow bad. I guess my question is why is it bad? Is it looks? Does it somehow take away craftsmanship? If so why is that? What makes these modern methods of construction inferior to the old ones?

Larry

[Mark Singer]

Larry,

There really are no "rules" about consistency in detailing...it is more or less up to the crafstman. A carefully hand dovetailed drawer is typically thought of as part of a fine traditionally constructed cabimet. I mentioned in the recent bath cabinet that I made, Blum hinges instead of the Brusso knife hinges ,or a machined dovetailed drawer would have compromised the quality since the level of detail...coopered doors ...all solid wood construction...hand cut bookmatched veneered back from solid wood....creates th eexpectation of consistency and maintaing a high level. The drawer in that cabinet is small and slides wonderfully...the is a "bumper" board at the back with felt cushions for a soft close. I could not picture any metal glides on that cabinet.
However, I post my closet construction a while back. There are probably 25 large drawers....I used the Kreg jig for drawer construction. The cabinet looks great , all the grain is continuous on the drawer fronts which are made from walnut plywood. On these drawers I used the Dynaslides....and they work great and seem as a natural addition to such a cabinet.
In a Krenov highly crafted small cabinet they really don't seem to belong since it is a modern interpretation of a tradional very fine cabinet.
Here is a link to the closet:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=5575&highlight=walnut+closet

Here is a link to the drawer constrution using Kreg:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=10546&highlight=kreg+drawers

[Jonathan Szczepanski]

All this is good info, but the WHY hasn't been addressed yet. ... I think this question goes back to the perception that using metal fasteners in fine furniture is somehow bad. I guess my question is why is it bad? Is it looks? Does it somehow take away craftsmanship? ... What makes these modern methods of construction inferior to the old ones?
Larry, my perception is that using metal fasteners - specifically slides as you have referenced - are viewed as inferior craftsmanship. There is little craft in screwing on glides, almost anyone can do it. The more a task can be done by the average person, the less that task is valued.

My personal view is that sometimes it is more valuable to use metal slides or hardware. If the function of a piece of furniture is improved - form sometimes has to take a step back. The best example of this for the slides are kitchen cabinets that others have mentioned. Their function requires a heavy-duty slide. The metal guides accomplish this task. The under-drawer slides help reduce the visual impact of a metal slide. That is why they are becoming more popular.

There is a time a place to use anything in furniture. Knowing when to use them is the real challenge.

[Jim Becker]

I think that this comes down to personal preference and more importantly, functionality. High-usage drawers, such as those in the kitchen, bath and shop, will benefit greatly over time from the metal slides and I have no doubt that even the "masters" from years ago would have used them in such applications because they make sense. Further, you can get some functionality, such as full-extension or even "beyond full-extension" with metal slides that would be difficult to reproduce in wood with the same strength. Those kind of things are of great benefit in the areas mentioned above.

I do think that for fine furniture, the more traditional non-metal approach is more appealing and that's what I prefer to use. Where it gets interesting is in "crossover" projects where the appearance is that of fine furniture yet the functionality is more akin to high-usage cabinetry...decisions, decisions... :D

[Larry Browning]

Larry, my perception is that using metal fasteners - specifically slides as you have referenced - are viewed as inferior craftsmanship. There is little craft in screwing on glides, almost anyone can do it. The more a task can be done by the average person, the less that task is valued.

My personal view is that sometimes it is more valuable to use metal slides or hardware. If the function of a piece of furniture is improved - form sometimes has to take a step back. The best example of this for the slides are kitchen cabinets that others have mentioned. Their function requires a heavy-duty slide. The metal guides accomplish this task. The under-drawer slides help reduce the visual impact of a metal slide. That is why they are becoming more popular.

There is a time a place to use anything in furniture. Knowing when to use them is the real challenge.
Jonathon,
I really like your comments. I am a function before form kind of guy. But, once function has been mastered, form becomes important.
I think your statement, "The more a task can be done by the average person, the less that task is valued." really goes to why we value craftsmanship so much.

I am currently building an armoire type cabinet for the bedroom that will house a TV in the upper part with drawers in the bottom for my wifes clothes. I want the drawers to slide in and out smoothly, but I want the piece to have the look and feel of a fine piece of furniture. Some of the drawers are large and will have a pretty heavy load. The plan calls for using nylon tape for the drawers to slide on. This seems a little cheesy (no offense to you cheese heads out there ;) ) to me so I am looking for an alternative.

[Jay Knepper]

I generally prefer not to use slides. For me fitting drawers is fun and installing slides is work. Also slides don't enhance the look of a piece.

However, for utility it's hard to beat a quality slide, and I happily use them in "hard use" applications.

[Tom LaRussa]

Except on shop cabs, etc., I do not use slide extensions. Nothing can duplicate the feel of a wood drawer, well fitted.

Alan (sometimes wrong, never in doubt)
I third this!

[Tom LaRussa]

All this is good info, but the WHY hasn't been addressed yet. I think that Mark may have hit on one point about hiding dovetail handwork. But if you use the under drawer guides these are hidden. I think this question goes back to the perception that using metal fasteners in fine furniture is somehow bad. I guess my question is why is it bad? Is it looks? Does it somehow take away craftsmanship? If so why is that? What makes these modern methods of construction inferior to the old ones?

Larry
Larry,

I think that metal drawer slides are intended for factory produced drawers -- i.e., built on an assembly line by people with minimal training. They are lined up with permanent jigs. As the carcass comes by the assembly worker simply slaps the pieces into the jig, reaches up for the pneumatic screwdriver, and quickly locks the hardware into place.

This is all well and good for mass-produced kitchen and bath cabinetry, and even for office furniture and the like, where getting things done quickly and cheaply is all that really matters.

BUT, if we are going to go to the trouble of building something from scratch, then why in the heck would we want to use factory production techniques intended merely for efficiency and cheapness?

If we want cheap, factory produced furniture there is plenty to be had at the chain stores -- at prices we could never hope to match in our own shops.

In addition, using mechanical slides in a home shop requires the same accurcy as producing Alan's "wood drawer, well fitted." But, since we don't have the factory's permanent jigs and such, the first thing we must do is either create them or buy their equivalent -- at great cost when one considers the low volume in which we produce things.

[Tom LaRussa]

Some of the drawers are large and will have a pretty heavy load. The plan calls for using nylon tape for the drawers to slide on. This seems a little cheesy (no offense to you cheese heads out there ;) ) to me so I am looking for an alternative.
How about using a naturally oily wood instead of the plastic? Lignum vitae might be a good choice, for example.

[Todd Burch]

Larry, here are a few things to contemplate.

A poorly fit drawer with no slides reaks of poor quality.
A well fit drawer with cheap slides reaks of cheapness.

The best slides I've ever used are the Blum Tandem undermount slides. The slides dictate a few aspects of drawer construction, (minimum thickness of the sides, recess depth under the bottom, notches/holes at the back), but in use and looks and feel, they are fantastic, especially with a well built drawer box.

I have actually seen these slides used in production cabinetry with butt joined, stapled plywood drawer sides, unfulled staple holes, with no roundovers, veneer corner fuzz not sanded off, and a sandpaper feel to the finish of the drawer box. A quality slide, that fits well in the marketing literature, but in execution, just more junk. Will this drawer fall apart? Most likely not, as the ball bearing slide does all the work, and even cushions the open and close stops.

I would not hesitate to use these slides in a fine piece of furniture (and I have!). However, the drawer will be finely built, finely fit and finely finished.

Now, side mount slides are a different story. As Jim Becker states, in a high-use application, they are perfect. Kitchens, shop cabinets, etc. Heavy load applications, they are great too. In my opinion, using a less than full extension slide makes the statement that you don't care that your creation is less than fully functional. Here's the typical scenario that I see so many times. In a production kitchen, you have 24" deep cabinets, made with an 18" deep drawer box, put on 3/4 extension slides. This gives you about 13" of drawer opening. How stupid is that? How "non-functional" is that? Just about 50% non functional. Most people don't have a clue about this.

Anyway, I guess I'll wrap up my commentary by asking some questions. Will you be entering your amoire in a competition? Do you expect it be around for 100 years? Do you care if it's around for 100 years? Will it serve it's purpose with or without metail slides? Is this a historic reproduction? Of the following two choices - which one is driving the project:

1) You will you get more out of the project by handing fitting a drawer and use this as a basis for other fine projects down the road, or

2) Will using metal slides significantly improve the project's completion timeframe so that you can meet a deadline or otherwise keep peace in the household? :)

And I guess the last question - if a furniture critic "graded" the amoire after it was complete, would the use of metal slides be the worst part of the critique, or would there be other factors that would be graded worse? (Fit, finish, scale, design, etc...)? I've honestly never seen a fine piece of furniture that I poo-pooed because it used metal hardware. The slides we take so granted for today didn't exist back when Chippendale was making furniture.

It might be sounding like I would only use metal slides, but that's not the case. Its just that it takes a lot more time and patience and upkeep to keep a well fit all-wood drawing running over the years, whereas a metal slide drawer take care of itself, and I would rather be doing other things than jacking with drawers when they start sticking or racking.

From a production standpoint, if a manufacturer can save $3, $4, or $5 each time he makes a drawer and doesn't use a slide, the answer in not using metal slides is not an aesthetic, nor functional, nor craftsmanship issue, but a financial one.

Todd

[Bill Arnold]

I haven't been at this as long as most of you, but I'd like to toss in a couple of comments. After spending most of my life behind a desk, I took a job in a cabinet shop a couple of years ago to learn more about the 'trade' and processes that go into the production of a piece of furniture.

All of the furniture we built at the shop was for motor yachts and very high-end residential locations. Yacht manufacturers had their designers detailing every aspect of construction; local interior designers brought us projects for ritzy condo installations. In every case, full-extension drawer glides were specified because that's what the customer wanted. Only in rare cases were the drawers dovetailed.

I don't disagree that a piece of 'fine furniture' should probably exclude the use of metal glides. Pieces I intend to show will most likely not have metal glides. Furniture I'm building for our use at home will have full-extension glides because that's what the client (SWMBO) wants.

Regards,