Why is it taking hours to flatten a plane sole?

[dave hunt]

I need some help. I have a few old planes that I picked up recently and I am having a hard time flattening them. I have tried this in the past only to get so-so results. It seems like the plane are convex (high in the center) and it takes me a few hours and a few blisters to get them flat.
I have been using sand paper on granite tiles and sandpaper glued to my table saw or jointer. I have tried all kinds of different types of sand paper ranging from 60 grit to 180. I have tried it dry and by wet sanding. I have read tons of blogs and posts on how to do it and watched some videos. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong?

The planes that I have completed turned out great and cut nice thin shavings it just takes so long to get there.

Any help would be great.

[Andrew Gibson]

I would say you are doing it right, It just takes a long time to remove the material to make the soles flat. I have found that I usually use 80 grit belt sander belts cut open and glued to my jointer bed.

The other thing you can do is start with a corrugated sole :p...
that's what I did and all my bench planes are corrugated... well accept for my dedicated #5 scrub. Thanks Great Grandpa for starting me with a #7c.

[John Coloccia]

Two reasons:

1) you're sanding metal. Metal is really really hard!
2) you're probably wobbling on the high point. Eventually, you establish a flat somewhere, and then whatever angle you happen to be at is the angle you'll ride. You're probably taking a lot more off than you have to. At this point, see #1.

To confirm this, take a marker and mark up the bottom of the plane. You'll probably notice that you're wearing off the marker in the middle and at the ends.

This is the same reason why when you're trying to joint a board that is high in the middle, the tendency is to plane and plane and plane, turning it into a narrower board that's high in the middle.

[george wilson]

It can take a long time to remove just a few thousanths by hand. The more you grind,the bigger your flattened surface gets,and the longer it takes to get that last little bit flat because you must remove an ever larger surface.

I was in the cabinet maker's shop in Wmsbg. years ago,before Jon and I made all those saws. The Garlick saws they were using some of,had the COARSEST ground surfaces on them I've ever seen. Marcus Hansen was trying to polish off the grinding marks. He was using a fairly fine whetstone. I knew he'd NEVER get to the bottom of the myriad of deeper marks,because as he went,he had ever more metal to remove.

[Fred Herrington]

I just finished doing this with two planes for the first time, and even using 60 grit, I definitely spent a significant amount of time before I had the soles flat. I'm going to find a machine shop to lap the things next time.

[Marv Werner]

Dave,

One of the problems that is common, you can easily be sanding more than just the high middle area. Try doing it the other way.....

Put the poor sole in a vise upside down and use a sanding block so you can see exactly where you are sanding. Sand length ways for awhile, then in a circle for awhile, then length ways, then in a circle and keep doing this until the surface is nearly flat. Once it looks flat to you, go back to sanding with sandpaper on your granite. When you do that, try to sand in a figure 8. This prevents uneven sanding. Finish up with only sanding length ways using a light oil or mineral spirits. Mineral spirits does a pretty good job of cleaning your sandpaper. Oil tends to clog it up. The best and fastest cutting sandpaper I've found is a 3M product that is black in color. I buy it at Walmart. You don't need a mirror finish, just flat.

Good luck.
Marv

[Wes Grass]

As John noted, if you're tipping it up at one end, there's a lot more material to remove before you get it flat. As an example, if you had a 12" long plane with a .002" crown to it, you'd have to take .008" off one end to clean it up at the other. You'd be better off deliberately grinding it a bit hollow first.

[James Taglienti]

You could try not flattening the planes. The only planes I have that are dead flat are a smoother, a #7, and a block plane. They all went to the machine shop. I have about a dozen others that i have not even put a straightedge on the sole and they work great.

to think that all of a sudden after so many years we JUST came up with the epiphany that only flat soled planes will work...

[dave hunt]

Wes,
am glad you suggested that. I was thinking about grinding a hollow in the sole and then it should be a lot faster to bring the sides down. Does that sound right?

[Peter Evans]

Convex soles are very hard to flatten because very hard to avoid rocking the plane as you run it back and forth.

As said above, concentrate on the centre section first to get that down to the toe and heel level. No need to flatten the whole sole, just toe - heel - and in front of mouth at same level.

You could grind a very slight concavity on a belt sander, and then flatten on the plate. Remember to use all the sandpaper and take the sides of the plane over the edge on each side and ends; people usually do not wear the sandpaper equally.

Peter in Sydney

[Jim Koepke]

If you do the math for a #5 plane that needs 0.003" removed, you will find that you will need to remove about one tenth of a cubic inch of material.

Especially with a convex sole you will find that your abrasive paper is not wearing evenly and can compound your problem by wearing in the middle, causing the sole to be lapping convex.

Others have mentioned using a machine shop. I wish they would post how much they have had to pay for the service. I can imagine it could cost quite a bit just for the set up.

jtk

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Dave,

recently I got a vintage Stanley #5 (Type 17, war production). There was the problem too, that the sole was not really flat. I´ve an old stroke belt sander which helped to create a flat sole square to the sides in short time. Some pics to get the idea. The following both pics show the plane as I received it. Sides and sole had been laquered in former times, the tote had a crack.

http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7874.jpg

http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7875.jpg

I made a jig for the stroke sander using a flat granite plate and a square MPX fence.

http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7876.jpg


http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7877.jpg


While sanding the planes (I fettled a few more), the plane was pressed against the fence to keep the sqareness. I did only short runs to avoid the heating of the cast iron.

http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7878.jpg

The sanding was done on the machine with 4 grits. The fine lapping I did on the granite plate by hand. That was a piece of cake since the planes came really flat from the machine.

http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7882.jpg

Having that done, the plane was cleaned up and it got new handles out of Bubinga.

http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7879.jpg

The plane works like a charm. Full length and full width shavings with ease.

http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7883.jpg

http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7884.jpg

Of course I know that not every woodworker owns a long belt sander. But perhaps there is the possibility to use one from a friend or so. I just want to give the idea.

Klaus

[David Weaver]

If you do the math for a #5 plane that needs 0.003" removed, you will find that you will need to remove about one tenth of a cubic inch of material.

Especially with a convex sole you will find that your abrasive paper is not wearing evenly and can compound your problem by wearing in the middle, causing the sole to be lapping convex.

Others have mentioned using a machine shop. I wish they would post how much they have had to pay for the service. I can imagine it could cost quite a bit just for the set up.

jtk

I think it's about 40 bucks or a little more plus shipping both ways. For most planes, it's a complete waste of money. For one that you need to have a dead square side and bottom, you can (even then, you don't *need* a square bottom for anything other than a rebate plane if a side of the plane is flat and the iron can adjust laterally).

I don't have a plane in my inventory that can't be set up to take a 1/2 thousandth shaving (with the change of an iron in some cases), and the total cost of my flattening setup is $40 with a roll of 4" psa 80 grit al-ox paper. It's not necessary for very many planes to be that keen in use, but I have the time and the inclination to make them like that.

to the OP:

If this plane is proud in the center, I would not grind it hollow with any power tools. I would get a 2x3 inch block of hardwood and some 60 grit paper, scribe marker lines across the bottom of it, and run it across a reference surface being certain that every time you run it across the reference lap you hold it with pressure in the exact same spot. For proud in the center, I would hold it around the tail behind the tote and get your hand on the frog or under the frog in the center. One or two swipes. No pressure on the front.

That will tell you where you want to work when you turn the plane over and get after the bottom with a block with 60 grit on it. Turn it over and put it in a vise (don't overtighten it) and then work on the sole with the block.

As counter-intuitive as it may seem, you can remove metal a lot faster with a small block of sandpaper than by lapping the whole plane on a flat surface. You just can't replicate the ability to dig with a small surface of coarse paper when you have to spread your weight across the whole sole.

From time to time, you can go back to the reference lap (after each couple of minutes of digging work with your small block) and mark the sole of the plane with a marker again and check progress, moving the hollow forward as you work until you have the plane riding on the toe and heel, then you can just work it on your lapping plate until you have full width contact at the immediate front of the mouth. Don't be cheap with sandpaper - when you're lapping a larger plane, the paper is far more effective when it's new and keen. once it loses that initial bite, it cuts at a small fraction of what it does when it's fresh, and you can make this an hour job or a 5 hour job by being cheap with paper.

All of this work is in reference to a longer plane where it's hard to lap in the first place.

One other side comment from this, if you have a plane where the mouth is proud of the toe (i.e., the sole is convex), you don't really need to lap it. You'll develop the skill to use it as is very quickly unless it is comparable to a banana in shape.

The offenders that *need* lapping are the ones that are concave, twisted, or have a significant amount of wear in front of the mouth (even the last one is debatable).

I just did the soles of two #7s in the last three weeks, something I thought I would never do again. One was a T18 that I got that's a fairly nice plane, but it was proud in the center at least a hundredth. I probably burnt through about $6-8 of sandpaper lapping it, it took about an hour. If I'd have been cheap with the paper, I could've easily made it take 5 or 6 hours and just spent my time making my hands warm holding the casting rubbing it across dull paper.

[dave hunt]

Thanks guys for all the advise. I probably am being too cheap with the sand paper. When I say the plane is convex on the sole, I mean that it is high in the center form heel to toe, all the way down the middle of the plane sole. Do you guys see that often. I ask because it seems like most of the planes I have are this way.

[David Weaver]

Thanks guys for all the advise. I probably am being too cheap with the sand paper. When I say the plane is convex on the sole, I mean that it is high in the center form heel to toe, all the way down the middle of the plane sole. Do you guys see that often. I ask because it seems like most of the planes I have are this way.

Make sure your reference surface is flat. If you're using a TS, they are often hollow from front to back, especially if there is any weight on the middle of the table (like table mounted trunions on a hybrid ts).

Do you have a precision straight edge to check the bottom of the plane?

I have probably lapped 50 planes - they come in all manner of screw-ups. I have only two that are overlapped by someone else, though - most of the time they are untouched. Probably 80% have wear around the mouth, probably 20% have been hollow an appreciable amount like what you're saying, and probably another 20% have been a bit proud at the mouth (opposite of your issue). The rest are out of whack in some random way, like a little bit of twist, etc.

If you're batting 1.000 with all of the noses and toes being proud, it might be worthwhile to call a glass shop and see if they have any 1/2 inch thick float/plate glass cabinet shelves, and use it on a bench or somewhere away from the surface that may be hollow (since glass flexes some). My lap is an 8x42 piece of float glass that cost $20 from a glass shop, they even rounded the corners for me as a courtesy. I use it on a cheap sjoberg's bench that is very flat despite its cheapness. A precision 2-foot steel straight edge really helps to confirm what you're doing when you're working in thousandths.

[george wilson]

Surface grinding old planes might be risky unless the machinists are very careful and knowledgable about how carefully they clamp the thin iron castings.

Be careful,too,about putting planes in a vise. It is very easy to bend those thin castings as much out of tolerance as the amount you are trying to get flat.

The best way,really,is probably to sand them on a very flat plate as most have been doing.

I have a tool and cutter grinder that can also be a surface grinder,but do not use coolant as it is messy on my floor. I would not be tempted to grind a sole flat. Mostly I use my
grinder to sharpen end mills.

What I do have that is tempting,is a 24" horizontal disc grinder. It is taking up way too much space. I'd like to get rid of it. If the disc is flat,it might be nice to try if I put a VFD on it.( I could face the disc off in my big lathe if I could get the lathe to run slow enough.) That would work out fine,since it is 3 phase. VFD makes it 1 phase,and gives infinite speed control. It was shop made by a good company called Virginia Metal Crafters.

[David Weaver]

Be careful,too,about putting planes in a vise.

Definitely important. You have to have a big enough vise for them so that you can sink them almost all the way to the sole (like within a sixteenth), and then only put as much pressure on them as it takes to keep them in, even if they move around a little.

And you still have to lap them to full true when you're done, off of the vise and on a reference surface.

Nervous types can put a pillow on the floor under the vise if they're afraid of partially tightening them and doing that.

The horizontal grinder would be perfect if you had something to hold the plane on it. That must weigh a ton.

[Stan Suther]

Many years ago I took a class with a local woodworking hotrod who recommended doing the heavy metal removal on plane flattening with a large single-cut file using the draw-filing technique. It involved marking the bottom with an ink marker, noting the high spot with a strait edge, then draw-filing the high area. Finish with sandpaper on a flat surface. I've done this on several planes, and it worked fine except that I had to be careful not to let the swarf build up in the file, otherwise I'd get some deep scratches. Cleaning the file often is important for this. In hindsight, I'm thinking that chalking the file will help to avoid this problem. Makes the sandpaper work go faster.

[Kent A Bathurst]

......Others have mentioned using a machine shop. I wish they would post how much they have had to pay for the service. I can imagine it could cost quite a bit just for the set up.

Have read a lot of positive comments on this fellow on a different forum. He does a lot of planes, and from time-to-time sells planes that he has reworked.

Click on "Plane" in the bottom right of the list. If I read it correctly, a #5 [or 5-1/2] would cost $50, plus shipping both ways. That means a $40 "find" just more than doubled in price, but also means you have a basically dead-flat plane with basically dead-square sides. Probably not too much of a stretch to guess the result is better than many planes were new out of the factory. I honestly don't see how he can make any money doing this.

http://www.tablesawtom.com/

[george wilson]

His price is very reasonable if he's charging $40 for a 3 hour job!! I would rather send him MY plane than throw coolant all over my new shop!

[Marv Werner]

George,

If you were to mill the sole of a plane, would you fly-cut it or take multiple cuts with a smaller milling cutter? Would you finish it with a final surface grinding? Or would you just surface grind it and not mill it? Would you also mill or surface grind the sides? If you do the sides, which would you do first? Do you consider the sides important as for flatness and squareness to the sole?

Marv

[Gary Curtis]

My arms were falling off when I tried by hand to true up the soles on 7 or 8 vintage hand planes. My next door neighbor is a machinist. He works on MRI equipment for hospitals. I asked if he had a surface grinder.

He did all my planes in one afternoon, and I thankfully gave him $150 for his troubles. He said he got all the soles 90 degrees to the sides and with .002 of being flat. What a difference in their performance. On top of that, I bought all new Hock irons for the planes. If you live near Ft. Bragg California and can visit him, he sells cosmetic rejects at 1/2 price. But only if you drive up to his shop.

The planes now perform wonderfully. When those tools get really old, the castings can warp badly. Buying new ones is one solution. The other is hard work. Or having a machinist for a neighbor.

Gary Curtis

[Preston Baxter]

Here is another option, Scrape it flat...
http://www.antiquetools.com/scrape/

[David Weaver]

Scraping is a sweat inducing self torture session. I scraped a #8 once with a chisel I blunted, honed, and hardened and then didn't temper.

A small block with coarse paper is easier on the user (and faster), and is less risk when getting close to the plane mouth.

I spent too much time trying to figure out when I needed to rehone the blunted chisel (cast wears things fast), and then honing it when it did need it. it's hard work!

[Randy Briggs]

Scraping is a sweat inducing self torture session. I scraped a #8 once with a chisel I blunted, honed, and hardened and then didn't temper.

A small block with coarse paper is easier on the user (and faster), and is less risk when getting close to the plane mouth.

I spent too much time trying to figure out when I needed to rehone the blunted chisel (cast wears things fast), and then honing it when it did need it. it's hard work!

Anyone ever try using a carbide tipped flat scraper? Was curious if that would help with not having to re-hone as frequently.

[David Weaver]

Anyone ever try using a carbide tipped flat scraper? Was curious if that would help with not having to re-hone as frequently.

Are you referring to Jameel's scraper, or is there a metalworking scraper that's made for this?

I haven't tried carbide. I would've if I had it in any incarnation laying around when I scraped. I would want something a little more substantial, though, something you can get both hands on.

Just be very very careful around the mouth of the plane if you try scraping, or you'll figure out you should be after you've knocked a big chunk of fragile cast off an edge. If anything, scrape toward the back of the mouth first, so that if you do slip around the mouth and get into it, what breaks off will be behind the iron.

[Sandy Stanford]

I need some help. I have a few old planes that I picked up recently and I am having a hard time flattening them. I have tried this in the past only to get so-so results. It seems like the plane are convex (high in the center) and it takes me a few hours and a few blisters to get them flat.
I have been using sand paper on granite tiles and sandpaper glued to my table saw or jointer. I have tried all kinds of different types of sand paper ranging from 60 grit to 180. I have tried it dry and by wet sanding. I have read tons of blogs and posts on how to do it and watched some videos. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong?

The planes that I have completed turned out great and cut nice thin shavings it just takes so long to get there.

Any help would be great.

Stick an Exxacto knife in a compass. Cut an existing piece of 100 grit sandpaper for a stationary disk sander into a circular strip about an inch and a half or two inches wide. Install this piece of sandpaper on the disk. Turn disk sander on. Hold plane bottom flat on the strip on paper on the offending convex area. Count to fifteen. You're done.

This took longer to type than it will take to fix.

[rob cosman]

Hi Dave, not sure what you are doing that is causing the problem but of the 40ish i have done the longest it took to flatten a sole was 30 minutes. i have done mostly 4 and 4 1/2's, some 5 and 5 1/2's. I have been using the self adhesive paper from Porter Cable, 150 grit roll that is 4 inches wide. If you dont scrimp by using the paper too long it is a pretty quick process. Most of the planes I have done are pre WW2 and a couple later ones. Keep the paper clean, vacume or brush it before it overloads. When the "bite" is gone change it up. A few dollars is paper is better than wasted hours. I go for 85% of the sole, get the area ahead of the mouth and 85% of the rest and you'll be good to go. I have a DVD on the process that Wood Craft is giving free with the purchase of the extra thick IBC blade/breaker combo. You can buy it seperately if you wish. I demo the entire "Revival" process at each Woodcraft store I visit. I always select one of the students planes to work on. Start to finish including teaching while I work takes about an hour. We strip the frog, flatten it's face. True the frog contact points as well as the mating contact points in the plane. Flatten the underside of the lever cap, clean up the throat, enlarge if necessary, flatten the sole, sharpen the blade and then use it to peel 1/2 thou shavings off a pc of maple. Several hundreds have watched so there are no parlour tricks or slight of hand! I read in a current woodworking book where the author advised against rehabbing due to the impossible odds of getting the plane to do much more than scratch pine. On a performance level, we consistantly get these old relics to compete with premium planes. Dont be discouraged, most are well worth the effort. cheers
Rob Cosman

[Preston Baxter]

Anyone ever try using a carbide tipped flat scraper? Was curious if that would help with not having to re-hone as frequently.

In the photo below is a carbide machinist's scraper made by Sandvik. I'm doing a lot of scraping on an old Lathe I'm rebuilding. The carbide scrapers are quite expensive (~$80) due to the price of the large carbide tip. However, it should last a very long time.
A carbide scraper can also be made cheaply by silver brazing a small strip of carbide to the end of an old file of other piece of steel. You need a diamond grinder or diamond hones to sharpen carbide though. All I use is a couple little DMT hand laps.

http://personal.bellsouth.net/p/s/psbax/PW/scraping1.jpeg

[Bob Strawn]

His price is very reasonable if he's charging $40 for a 3 hour job!! I would rather send him MY plane than throw coolant all over my new shop!

I will personally vouch for Tablesaw Tom, He does a rather amazing job. It would be worth many times the price he charges.

The plane he set up for me is my reference plane. I use it to compare other planes to.

Bob

[David Weaver]

How have you found it to work, in terms of how fast you can remove material?

I understand it to be a much more precise operation than lapping, but I've never been able to remove material quickly.

Draw filing is an interesting thought, but I can see people getting themselves into trouble with that - especially on a wide surface.

[Preston Baxter]

How have you found it to work, in terms of how fast you can remove material?

I understand it to be a much more precise operation than lapping, but I've never been able to remove material quickly.

Draw filing is an interesting thought, but I can see people getting themselves into trouble with that - especially on a wide surface.

Draw filing can remove material quicker with a large, coarse file, however, it is real easy make things convex if you get too carried away. As with scraping, making frequent checks (prints) against the surface plate will keep errors to a minimum. Most files will have slight bow to them. You'll want to draw file with the convex side down. This will cut the surface concave, which will help cancel the natural tendency of filing the surface convex.

With a long handled scraper, you can hog off metal too if you get the work down low enough and put your body weight into it. Maybe a couple of thousandths per cycle. The two pieces in the photo were out maybe .010" concave and I spent a couple of evenings scraping them back true. Now both are flat within +/-.0001".

[Randy Briggs]

In the photo below is a carbide machinist's scraper made by Sandvik. I'm doing a lot of scraping on an old Lathe I'm rebuilding. The carbide scrapers are quite expensive (~$80) due to the price of the large carbide tip. However, it should last a very long time.
A carbide scraper can also be made cheaply by silver brazing a small strip of carbide to the end of an old file of other piece of steel. You need a diamond grinder or diamond hones to sharpen carbide though. All I use is a couple little DMT hand laps.

http://personal.bellsouth.net/p/s/psbax/PW/scraping1.jpeg

That's what I'm talking about. I lost an auction on a Sandvik but ending up getting an Anderson Bros. for ~$30. Wasn't able to find a place to get a Sandvik like yours that wasn't over $100 - where did you get yours?

[dave hunt]

Thanks so much for all af the responses and advise. I finished the no.5 by using a file and a sharpee to get it close and then lapped it with sand paper and granite. Now I have a no. 6 to do. I will let you know how it comes out.

Rob,
I will look for you if you ever make it down to Orlando, FL. Ii would love to take one of your classes.

[David Weaver]

Thanks so much for all af the responses and advise. I finished the no.5 by using a file and a sharpee to get it close and then lapped it with sand paper and granite. Now I have a no. 6 to do. I will let you know how it comes out.

Rob,
I will look for you if you ever make it down to Orlando, FL. Ii would love to take one of your classes.

Sounds like a good approach. 5s and 6s should be quick. It's only the longer planes that are difficult to lap - unless you're really big and fat and can make a whole lot of downpressure.

[Preston Baxter]

That's what I'm talking about. I lost an auction on a Sandvik but ending up getting an Anderson Bros. for ~$30. Wasn't able to find a place to get a Sandvik like yours that wasn't over $100 - where did you get yours?

I got mine through Graniger. Search for "Clamp on Scraper" at their site. They have three different sizes 20mm, 25, mm, and 30mm blade widths. The length also increases as the size goes up. I don't like Grangers but it was the only place I could find the scrapers. They won't sell to individuals, so I had to order it through my work.