Frustrated with tearout

[Todd Franks]

I've been working with some oak that has been giving me fits with tearout from my planer and jointer. The problem is with grain reversal. I run it through one direction I get tearout, reverse the feed direction and the tearout occurs at a different location. The jointer knives are brand new and the planer knives have only seen 5 small projects. I've tried all the usual tricks, skewing the piece, wetting the surface, taking really light passes (1/128") and nothing works. So after my experimentation I thought I would ask some of you more experienced woodworkers. A drum sander is not in the budget right now so I need other options. I can spend hours with 60 grit paper on my palm sander but that ends up dishing the piece. I've tried hand planing with a #4 but it has the same issues with grain reversal. My card scraper does the job very slowly, but my thumbs give out before I can remove the tearout. How does everyone else without a drum sander deal with tearout?

I think I remember David Marks mentioning on his show, to back bevel the planer and jointer knives. Has anyone else tried this? Does it help with tearout? Is it time for me to get a Veritas cabinet scraper or scraper plane? Would that be more efficient and less work than a card scraper? I suppose a random orbit sander would also remove material faster than my palm sander, but I just hate the dust sanding creates.

Thanks,
-Todd

[Steve Cox]

A scraper plane or a belt sander would be my options. A scraper plane or scraper holder work better because you don't have to apply pressure with your thumbs in addition to having a greater registration surface to keep things flat. If you go with a belt sander see if you can get a frame for it which will help with keeping things flat also.

[Mark Singer]

It can be done with a belt sander if you have used one a lot...I have seen many things ruined with a belt sander very quickly. Try on another piece. The Stanley 80 or the scrapper plane will be tricky on some oak also. Another option is to find a drum sanding service and you just pay a little and it comes out perfect to 120 grit and you take it from there.

[Bob Smalser]

Short of a commercial thickness sander...

The 21 or 24" belt sander takes just as much technique to use well as a hand plane or scraper.

It's time to master that time-saving tool....but on something cheaper than your oak, first. I'll do a piece on it some day, as proper adjustments and a light hand are what keeps the corners from digging in.

I go to the scrapers after coarse thru fine grits on the belt sander....can do it all fast....and generally don't have to do much finish sanding on flat surfaces, as the final card scraper is razor sharp.

What grits? Depends on the wood...harder wood often needs a finer starting grit. Anywhere from 50 to 100 to hog stock thru 100 or 120 followed by 150.

Some figured woods react favorably to planing at a higher moisture content....you can try spraying the exposed surface with water and bagging it for a few days, then using a freshly-sharpened set of planer blades.

Slower feeds also can be effective...but that usually means surfacing each board slowly on a sharp jointer before layup.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I feel your pain Todd. I have had similar problems with white oak and the Performax saved my bacon on several occasions. The best advice I can give you is to select your wood carefully before hand to minimize the grain reversal.

[Bobby Nicks]

I just had this problem with some maple. I was able to get around it using a #4 1/2 plane with a high angle frog. Took longer than the jointer, but I was able to get a smooth surface. The high angle frog is what did it, not the #4 1/2 plane.


Bob

[Todd Franks]

Sounds like I should be saving more pennies for a drum sander. I'll see if I can borrow a belt sander from a friend and give that a shot. Bobby, I hadn't thought of a high angle frog plane. I like that idea too. Although I don't have a high angle frog plane, I suppose I can get a replacement blade and hone a small back bevel to accomplish the same thing. I have so much to learn about wood. Next time I'll experiment on scrap wood instead of my project wood. Thanks again!!

-Todd

[Dan Gill]

If you have a cabinet shop or millwork shop in your area, they might run the pieces through their wide belt sander for a price. Or maybe there is a Creeker in your area with one?

[Eric Apple - Central IN]

You can also have your planer blades ground to a steeper angle to greatly reduce tearout on figured wood. A slower feed rate (if possible) will also greatly help along with the light passes.

[Dave Richards]

You might also see if you can find a shop that has a planer with a helical cutter head like this.
http://www.byrdtool.com/jlm15.jpg
I had some birdseye maple planed by a local hardwood retailer on their planer. Not a single instance of tearout.

[Steve Beadle]

If you have a cabinet shop or millwork shop in your area, they might run the pieces through their wide belt sander for a price. Or maybe there is a Creeker in your area with one?
Or there might be a cabinet maker close by who has a stroke sander. That should handle it, I would think.

[Bill White]

Bought mine several years ago, and boy does it make a difference.

[Chris Padilla]

You might also see if you can find a shop that has a planer with a helical cutter head like this.
I had some birdseye maple planed by a local hardwood retailer on their planer. Not a single instance of tearout.
Dave,

Any funny marks from that cutterhead style? That looks like a "shelical" that Byrd makes.

[Joseph N. Myers]

Todd,

Does this happen with all the oak you have or just a certain batch of oak? Only on oak with and at the reverse grain? Does it happen with wood other than oak that usually doesn't tear (such as walnut, pine, etc)? Does it happen only on one side of your planer? Do you get tearout on the same piece of wood with both the jointer and planer? Is the oak kiln dried, i.e., to quickly, might be too much stress in the wood. See if anyone else you know have the same problems you have using the same wood.

I have lots of oak, both white and red, three different planers and only have problems with oak tearout maybe one in 20 to 30 boards (and usually it is my problem). Now hard maple, that is a different story, usually have to go to my variable speed planer and/or drum sander to assure no tearout.

If all else fails, you can always check with the manufacture, they might know some wierd thing that us "normal" people might not know about - they deal with these type problems daily.

Regards (and good luck), Joe

[Dave Richards]

Chris, that was indeed a picture of a "Shelical" head. It was just one I found while looking for a picture of one.

As to leaving marks, there weren't any left on the birdseye maple I had done. It was incredibly smooth. If you close your eyes and run your hand over it, you'd have no idea that it's birdseye. I'd never seen it that smooth right out of a planer before.

Part of the benefit with the helical arrangement is that the cutter is always in contact with the wood. They are also quieter.

The downside to this type of head is the downtime involved to replace all those carbide cutters. They have four edges so they can be turned three times before replacing but even the time involved in turning them is substantial. Too bad they're so expensive. If they were less expensive I could see having a pair of them and swapping the entire head out so you could keep the machine in service and change cutters at your leisure.

[Alan Turner]

I have the Byrd on my 12" jointer, and I am told that the inserts will do many hundreds of thousands of feet before rotation is required, unless a nail or screw gets in the way. Mine is new enogh that I can't yet comment on longevity.
Alan

[Dave Richards]

Alan, that's a good thing to know although I don't have one of those heads yet. Maybe someday I can justify the cost based on that.

I guess longevity is a benefit of carbide over HSS even though you can put a sharper edge on the HSS.

[Jim Dunn]

Wouldn't the blades closest to the fence wear down first when doing 3/4" stock? So that when you want to do 8" wide boards you could get a step in the wood. Just wondering?

[Dave Richards]

Jim, you may be right although you probably wouldn't get a step. You'd have a duller area but that would be the same with regular jointer knives, too. I think, regardless of the type of cutter, the proper thing to do when edge jointing is move the fence periodically in an attempt to get even wear on the cutters.