2 saws made the way I LIKE to make them

[george wilson]

After showing the crude White back saw,I re- shot these 2 saws I'd previously shown,and which are posted in the FAQ section here.

This post is for new guys like Marv,who haven't seen the earlier posts I made many of several months ago.

There appear to be scratches on the blade of the closed back saw. There aren't any. It must be from wax on the blade making reflections in my bad lighting.

The closed handle is a copy of a Groves back saw which I think has about the nicest handle I've ever seen.On my own,I prefer to not copy,but at times there is something so nice I have to possess even more by copying it. The blade is .020" thick like the original.

I enhanced my original by using curly maple rather than beech,and brass rather than an iron back. I did this on both saws,actually.

I also freehand ground the bevels on the backs. If you notice,everything tapers a bit towards the tip. The backs,and the bevels taper slightly. It is a little refinement that goes with the tapered blades,to add grace and balance to the design. These kind of refinements add a lot to a piece of work,and everyone should consider making use of these little features.

The open handle dovetail saw has some features from a saw I saw in the Duncan Phyfe tool chest. The little "turn back" on the handle near the back is a nice feature. It has a blade .015" thick,like the original Groves saw that inspired it.

There is a picture of another dovetail saw I put together especially for sawing fret grooves in guitar fingerboards. Nothing else special about this saw (except the especially tarnished brass back!) The blade is .020",with 20 teeth per inch,very small. Wax shows on this blade also. It has the rather simple style handle of the Dalaway saws we made,and the same less refined,round top brass back,with the upturned tip the original has.

[David Weaver]

The closed groves tote is the nicest I've seen. And strangely enough, I never heard of it until I saw your saws, george.

The top saw fills my head with all of the things I want to learn to do well on a saw tote.

i just missed out on a groves saw on ebay yesterday to someone who wanted it more than me, but there are other ones out there. They are all outside of the range of what I want to pay to get a tote to look at though.

[george wilson]

My Groves had a big curve in the blade,and I got it for $50.00. The dealer thought it was screwed,I suppose. I just clamped the front end of the blade in a smooth jawed vise,and tapped on the front of the back to jerk the blade straight.

That will work unless there is a sharp kink in the blade. Looks like it never happened.

Groves had a superb sense of design,all right.

[Patrick Tipton]

George, those are great looking saws. I admire your work.

The problem with this site and posts like this are that I end up wanting to spend all my time in my shop, making tools, furniture and learning stuff. I still have a day job - help!

Regards, Patrick

[seth lowden]

Wonderful looking saws. Are the name stamp on the spine and the owner's stamp one and the same? Where might one find a source for decent looking name stamps? I want to stamp my tools... Thanks!!

[george wilson]

I think my day job is providing educational material for you guys,now that I'm retired.

[Patrick Tipton]

I think my day job is providing educational material for you guys,now that I'm retired.


George, you should consider it charity to a worthy group ;)

[Rick Markham]

I think my day job is providing educational material for you guys,now that I'm retired.

I for one seriously appreciate it George!!! I've learned a ton since you've been actively sharing bits and pieces of your knowledge. So don't quit your day job! :D Please ;)

[george wilson]

Seth,I got our name stamps from Buckhorn Engraving Co. in Ohio You can talk to the guy who makes the stamps. Really knows his stuff. You can choose from many fonts of type he has. He might email fonts. I think I found fonts on the computer and specified which I wanted. My wife got some stamps from him not too long ago. I DO hope he is still in business.

At the time,I THINK,may be wrong,that my name stamp was $75.00. That was a good while ago. Probably more now. They made them from 01 steel. You can specify sharply Vee'd letters for wood,or stouter for metal. I recommend getting the metal ones. mine is,and you don't want to chip a letter and ruin your investment,and maybe your tool!

I make many of my own individual letter and number stamps. It is just not suitable to make an otherwise nice tool,and stamp it with plain,no serif Gothic stamps like you get today. It just ruins the tool. I will post a few number stamp sets. When I made an important piece,like a surveyor's compass,I copied the original numbers exactly.

I posted a picture of an 1809(?) Chamblee surveyors compass reproduction I was asked to make for David Brinkley. Made in Winchester,Va..

It was probably worth about $50,000.00 with the time that went into it. Actually more,if you count building maintenance.

You can search my old posts in the search function,and find it.

I also copied letters individually stamped on 18th.C. brass tobacco boxes I found in collections. They were good for general use.

the only thing I ever stamped with plain,Gothic stamps,were the tooth numbers on saws. 2 reasons: I didn't want to ruin a handmade stamp stamping dozens of hard saw blades @52 rockwell. It was also a modern mark to add to the saws not "becoming antiques" in several years of use. These were 1/16" numbers,and not too easy to see.


Rick,I am glad you enjoy the posts. So many see them,and say nothing. You make it worth the trouble. And,it is trouble. I hate photographing stuff,am not to good at it,have no proper lights,and I shake. Today I found the tripod,so did get some sharper pictures. Dark day,though. Bad light.

[Will Boulware]

George,

Just wanted to add my thanks to the multitude who have already posted. Your contributions are greatly appreciated, even though I don't comment on each thread you've started. Seriously, without people like you, the rest of us would have NO idea how a lot of things are even supposed to go together, much less how we can make them on our own! Please keep up the good work.

Oh, and the saws are gorgeous as well!

-Will

[Jonathan McCullough]

I have to concede that there are few saws I don't like, but these are especially nice, like seeing pristine saws right off the assembly line.

You've mentioned before that you consider a sharp transition between the curved parts of the handle and the flat parts to be the hallmark of superior work. Why is that the case (or is this a matter of taste), and how did you do it on these handles? Do you run the flat parts on some sandpaper after shaping the curves? Also, how long are the blades on these saws?

[george wilson]

I'd have to go measure them,Jonathan. No more than 12". The division between the curved and flat areas provides better sculpture. You can see the difference between light and shadow better. You can use the junction between curved and flat areas to create "thicks and thins" as in calligraphy,or fine script engraving.

It isn't considered good sculpture to just have amorphous,continuous surfaces that go around the sides and ignominiously disappear.

A few others may disagree,but the finest old saws were made this way,back when educated people(schooled or not) made much finer tools than those common today. Groves saws are examples of real design genius and impeccable taste.

You can also see the use of light and shadow on more delicate objects like flintlock locks on fine guns. The most popular types used sharp lines in the same way. There were also round face locks,but the former were much more common. The surgical knife I posted a few weeks ago was copied from an old one,and has the same type flats on its handles. Surgical tools were made to absolutely the highest standards attainable back then,both in function and in art.

The excuse that a fully rounded handle is more comfortable is a weak one. The Groves saws,and others are perfectly comfortable,and no one has ever gotten blisters from using properly sculpted handles like the old Groves,Disstons,and all the others.

[Jonathan McCullough]

The distinction is aesthetic rather than functional then, and the sharper transition is to create light/shadow visual interest, such as moulding? If that's the case, the rationale is pretty striking, especially with that curly maple. Have you seen the saw handles by the German guys on the "Old Ladies" website? The mitt part of the handle takes an entirely different aesthetic by being rounded off and I gotta admit that ignominy has its attractions too.

Do you have any tips on how to achieve that crisp effect?

[george wilson]

Sand the sides after you finish rounding things off. It is necessary to sand the sides do grind off the saw screws flush. I use a side stroke belt sander.

The German guys do nice work,but they do fall down a bit on getting things too rounded, Never the less,they do better work than most of what I've seen.

[Marv Werner]

Excellent replication, George. Those older totes were made with the sanded flat sides as you have done on your replication of the older saws. Looks authentic for sure.

Strictly for feel and comfort, I prefer the older style Disston totes that have the radiuses on the hand grip totally rounded off and blended with the sides.

The flat sides of the old period totes was probably done that way when sanding the screw heads flush. Just a quicker and easier way of doing it perhaps?

Very nice job, some of the best I've seen, except for my own of course.:)

Marv

[David Weaver]

George, for the uninitiated (me sort of included), how long does it take you to make one of those saw totes?

Also, I know you mentioned before that you have used a handsaw in a pinch to cut the slot on the totes, but I can't recall if you used a special fret blade on a TS or a bandsaw to cut the slot.

I'd like to use a BS and stone all of the set off of a blade with a .025" band, but I don't have confidence that it'll end up any straighter than sawing, and I don't have any handsaws with no set now, though my rip saw is close enough that I could probably get rid of most of what it has by putting it in a vise with aluminum jaw plates.

Cutting the first one with a ryoba (the only thing around that cut a kerf narrow enough) was a bit of a pain, it still flexes a tiny bit in a long cut if you're not careful.

[David Weaver]

Sand the sides after you finish rounding things off. It is necessary to sand the sides do grind off the saw screws flush. I use a side stroke belt sander.


While this sounds simple, getting your lines to look that crisp doing the work freehand is a challenge, something to aspire to.

On the first saw tote I made a couple of weeks ago, I ended up rounding everything because after I sanded flats, I wasn't happy with the way the lines came out - they were not crisp like george's. They were OK, just not as sculptural and smooth as those came out.

It takes accurate work on all of the rasping, etc, to end up with nice lines like that after the flats are sanded, there can't be any undulations, even small, in the tote work. That's not even getting into how difficult it is for beginners to get the carving details to look remotely close to that nice and be that delicate looking but still strong and functional.

Anyway, I found the compass post, for anyone who didn't see it the first time (I didn't).

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108372

[george wilson]

David,I had a special thin bandsaw blade reserved for sawing the slits for the blades. I think it was .025". For the .015" blades,I sawed their slits by hand with my old Groves dovetail saw.

I can't recall how long it took to make a handle as they were done in assembly line fashion. The closed Groves handle might take 3 or 4 hours,being extra,extra tight about the quality. I can't recall now. Lots of little operations like slitting,mortising for the back,counter boring the screw holes,etc..

Marv,the flattened corners continued to be made after ground flush saw screws weren't used any more,though. Slow tool evolution? Maybe. With my training under one of the finest sculptors in the World,I know it is just better sculpture to separate these 2 areas. I think the old time makers were exposed to better art than we are,and appreciated it as a culture more than most of us do today. I know it's true. They paid attention to the classics,learned Latin,etc.. their educations were much more directed to the fine arts. They didn't have the mass of technology we have to occupy their minds and their educations.

The better educated demanded the fine work the lower classes did,and set their standards. Masters had to have a good knowledge of drawing,design,and sculpture at a more intrinsic,less intellectualized level,but it was there in their heads.

The earlier you go,the more artistic many things become. A decline in many areas began about 1680,but tools continued to evolve.

My wife and I went to the Metropolitan in New York last summer. There was a special exhibit of incredible inlaid stone tables and pictures. I mean incredible,too. Though the earlier craftsmen no doubt had tools less good than the 18th.C. craftsmen,the Elizabethan era inlays were fitted even tighter,within what looked to my machinist's eye,within a few thousanths of an inch. The later tables were still great works,but the tolerances were a bit more slack,a few thousanths looser.Don't get me wrong,none of those pieces were made by slouches. The background stone on these tables was always black granite. Very hard. My surface plate is made of it. The ancient Egyptians used black granite for their master measuring tools. Every year,all the craftsmen had to bring their rules to be checked against the mastr rules of black granite. My master squares,and master straight edge are black granite. Pink granite is harder,due to the quartz content,but black has been the big standard for many centuries.

In Florence,Italy,I was in the large cathedral called the Doumo. The huge floor was all marble inlaid with different colors of marble. These marble sheets were several feet square,inlaid with tracery,vines,and leaves,etc. Large scale inlays. They still fit to better than 1/32". They were sawed with bow saws with a simple iron wire for a blade. Sand was poured on the blades,with water to make them cut. Talk about hard work!!!!

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Sand the sides after you finish rounding things off. It is necessary to sand the sides do grind off the saw screws flush. I use a side stroke belt sander.

The German guys do nice work,but they do fall down a bit on getting things too rounded, Never the less,they do better work than most of what I've seen.

George,

being one of those "German guys", I´d like to respond your post. :) Thanks for the positive comment of our work at first. Concerning the rounding of the handles, we did some attempts. We´ve made different handles for Dovetail saws in several shapes. We felt the most comfortable for a Dovetail Saw a handle with blended edges, more or less completely rounded. This handle shape increases the versatility of the tool and it´s control. While dovetails sawing there is not much power needed. More important is the precision of the cut. On larger saws, where the handle has to transport a lot of power, we think the handle shouldn´t be rounded completely. That helps to concentrate the power on pushing the saw by avoiding the twisting of the handle in the hand.

The sanding of the handle sides is one possibility to grind the screw heads flush to the cheeks. Another is, to sand the handle blank including the mounted screws before shaping the handle (rounding the grip). We´ve done both. However a dead flush screw head will probably not stay dead flush for a longer time. The wood moves slightly, the screws don´t.

So we changed the method by drilling the screw holes accurately with the depth of the thickness of the screw heads. The result is a flush screw, although not as flush as freshly ground but as flush as they are if they are ground and the saw has acclimated a few weeks in the shop. The advantage is, that the screws will maintain the nice shine they have when coming from the turning lathe. If they will be ground, the surface of the heads changes and becomes less beautiful - at least to our eyes.

Klaus

[Jim Koepke]

George,

Thanks for the pictures, the education and the inspiration.

Most of my work has been building functional items like shelves and lawn chairs. Hopefully soon I will be able to work more on some tool making attempts.

I may not always post on my appreciation of your contributions, but I always enjoy them.

jtk

[george wilson]

Klaus,it all depends upon your aims. My aim,being in a museum,was to make the tools look original. I haven't had trouble with the screws becoming noticeably non-flush. I just think they look better ground.

On my Disston saw handle,I made domed screws that,of course,were not flush,nor could they be.

I think you are splitting hairs on the "power" aspect of your fully rounded handles. However,you do very good,careful work anyway. If everyone did work as good as yours,we'd see a lot more nice saws.

[george wilson]

Klaus,why are you making so many handles? Do you make dovetail saws for sale?

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Klaus,why are you making so many handles? Do you make dovetail saws for sale?


Yes George,

Pedder and me are selling handcrafted and customized saws:)
We are new in this business, our trade mark is "Two Lawyers Tools".

Klaus

[Marv Werner]

Klaus,

Was that you winning that handsawing contest at WIA? If so, did you display any of your saws?

Marv

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Klaus,

Was that you winning that handsawing contest at WIA? If so, did you display any of your saws?

Marv

Marv,

unfortunately I wasn´t able to join WIA although I really would love to have been there. So it was not me who won the handsawing contest.

However .... it was our saw, which helped to win the contest!:) Two of our saws were the Dovetail Saws, which were used in the WIA olympics.

Those two saws I showed in this forum about 2 weeks ago "A busy weekend".

Klaus

[Jonathan McCullough]

Wenn sie nach America kommen, sie sollen uns anrufen.

[Marv Werner]

Jonathan,

You can fix that by moving your fingers one key to the right.

Marv

[Christian Castillo]

I think my day job is providing educational material for you guys,now that I'm retired.

Hi George, first I want to say that your work is always stunning, and that I, as a still inexperienced woodworker, appreciate all the bits of advice that you have put in your posts or in the posts of others.

[Christian Castillo]

:D LOL, Marv, that has to be the funniest response to anything I've read all day.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Wenn sie nach America kommen, sie sollen uns anrufen.

Thank You, Jonathan!

For the kind invitation and for the using of my language in that perfect way, that was quite surprising. If I will visit the states, I´ll be happy to contact you. Vielen Dank!

Klaus

[Peter Evans]

Beautiful saws George, there is something particularly attractive about well made old saw handles. My most comfortable open handle is a Taylor Bros (late 19th century of course) that is virtually identical to the one you made; I don't think the quality ones changed much during that century.

I certainly appreciate your time to provide such important guidance on 18th century tools, my favourite period. Have you thought about a book?

Peter in Sydney

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Klaus,it all depends upon your aims. My aim,being in a museum,was to make the tools look original. I haven't had trouble with the screws becoming noticeably non-flush. I just think they look better ground.

On my Disston saw handle,I made domed screws that,of course,were not flush,nor could they be.

I think you are splitting hairs on the "power" aspect of your fully rounded handles. However,you do very good,careful work anyway. If everyone did work as good as yours,we'd see a lot more nice saws.

I agree, George.

If the aim is to reach the original look, it would be the wrong way to change things. BTW, yours look great!

We´ve made a reproduction of an vintage Kenyon handle for a Dovetail saw. The original has flat sides, so our reproduction got flat sides, too.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8mxkzBCYMc4/S7JDUJXdxKI/AAAAAAAAATs/fAk4bARvG4M/s1600/CIMG1316.JPG

Our larger saws (Tenon Saws and Hand Saws) get handles with flat sides also.

Panel Saw, handle American Walnut (QS)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8mxkzBCYMc4/S7mwwkYUpEI/AAAAAAAAAW8/BucIKm2LNkc/s1600/Fuchsschwanz+3.JPG

Large Tenon Saw (filed CC), handle American Walnut

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8mxkzBCYMc4/S-HWJlHXmtI/AAAAAAAAAYs/hCyIFzWeXjQ/s1600/DSCN0078.jpg

Tenon Saw, handle English Yew wood (please ignore the gap at the bottom of the spine mortise, that has been fixed after taking the pic)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/TEIQtmhaLjI/AAAAAAAABvk/ZsmOO8oazdg/s1600/IMG_0464.JPG

Klaus

[Marv Werner]

Very nice detailed totes, Klaus,

I especially like the work you did on the lambs tongues.

The split screws look large. What size are they?

Good luck with getting your business going. I've seen a couple articles on woodworking sites. I saw the one with a picture of 33 dt cuts in one inch. That means the wood between the cuts were less than 1/32" thick.

Marv

[george wilson]

You know how to sculpt accurate surfaces,and how to meet the saw cheeks with the lamb's tongue,Klaus. Few seem to know how to do that. I should make a handle out of yew also. It is such a nice,crisp hardwood to work with. Much harder than it looks.

Your handles stand magnification quite well,too.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Very nice detailed totes, Klaus,

I especially like the work you did on the lambs tongues.

The split screws look large. What size are they?

Good luck with getting your business going. I've seen a couple articles on woodworking sites. I saw the one with a picture of 33 dt cuts in one inch. That means the wood between the cuts were less than 1/32" thick.

Marv

Marv,

the screws we use have a thread of shy 1/4" (6,0 mm). This is a little bit oversized, 3 mm or 4 mm would work also. The choice of those screws was done because they have large enough heads to shape flat headed screws on the late out of. The smaller sizes of that screw type don´t allow to turn reasonable flat heads out of.

Yes, we´ve made a very special Dovetail Saw using a very thin saw plate of 0.012" and the little cutting depth of about 3/4". Using this saw I succeeded making 33 cuts per inch. If the 33 kervs are subtracted, the amount of the 32 standing pieces of wood is about 5/8". Her a pic of the saw and of the board (Cherry, 1/2"):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8mxkzBCYMc4/TEoiRd0Z05I/AAAAAAAAAcY/sw761RPTXPU/s1600/CIMG1858.JPG




http://hw.roesch.de/Bilder/B7686.jpg


George,

the yew tree was out of an old stock of English wood. It is very nice to work with, even the carving work around the lambs tongue is easy to do since the wood is pretty hard but dense. The timber shows a lot of live, I do like it.

Klaus

[Marv Werner]

Thanks Klaus for the pictures.

I see what you mean regarding the screw size that you use in order to create a larger screw head by re-machining it in your lathe. I think my choice would be to machine the entire screw from raw stock.

I realize why saw makers use the split nut style of screw set, however, I don't like them. That kind of screw set has always been one of my pet peeves when it comes to saw screw design. I'm not criticizing your workmanship, you do as good a job as can be done with that kind of split nut. It's just that there is easily a better way of accomplishing a more clean and finished look to the right side of the handle.

Saw makers of today who partially replicate the period saws such as Kenyon's as one example, make other changes to their saws. I don't understand why they choose to use an inferior screw design, not to mention, requiring a special screw driver to tighten the nuts that are prone to loosen.

The saw up in the left corner of my post here includes what I consider to be a better screw design. I posted pictures of the saw in an earlier post. This site won't allow reposting of the same image, so I'll attempt to copy and paste the link here. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=148928

Thanks, Klaus,
Marv

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Marv,

our first saws we made using brass saw screws having the same design as those you´ve shown. They are easy to be got from a german supplier. We were not 100% pleased with the brass screws because they were not very stable. Using once the driver not accurately and the slot is impacted. The brass is smooth, maybe a bit too smooth to be used for screws (I know that they have been used since more than 100 years by saw makers).

We looked for a way to offer stainless screws. SS sawscrews are not to get in Germany. So we were happy to find SS screws, which could be used after being a bit modificated.

Maybe they are to the eyes of some people less beautiful than brass screws but form has to follow function. All in all we are happy with those strong, sturdy and nonrusting screws.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Klaus

[Marv Werner]

Klaus,

Before I made the screw sets I used for my "concept saw", I searched wherever I knew to search for screws of that kind. I could find nothing that came close to the dimensions I needed. My only choice was to make them myself.

You said:
our first saws we made using brass saw screws having the same design as those you´ve shown. They are easy to be got from a german supplier.

Does the German supplier have them in stock or do they make them to customer specifications? I've found similar ones here in the states but the heads are way too small, more like what would be used for wooden knife handles for example.

As for the screwdriver slot, you are right, if care is not taken, it can be easily marred, however, the same can be said for a split nut, even more so because most people won't have a proper screwdriver for them and will attempt to tighten by engaging only one side of the screw as is apparent in most of the old saws I run across that have split nut screw sets.

Marv

[george wilson]

I recommend going to the Brownell's Gunsmithing supplies site. Order a set of their magnetic tipped gunsmith's screwdrivers. I never touch any nice screw without one of them. Their tips are ground parallel,and do not burr the slot edges. plus,you can buy a sort of basic set,and buy extra tips as you need them.

We had a good set for years at the shop. when I retired I got a set for myself.

[Marv Werner]

George,

For the narrow slotted screws, I have ground a large bladed screwdriver thinner to fit snug in the slot. I'm familiar with the type screwdrivers you refer to. Problem is, I'm just too cheap to buy them. Not that I wouldn't want them, mind you.

Marv

[David Weaver]

I hacksawed and ground a $1.50 "pittsburgh" chinese screwdriver from HF for the split nut screws. It works well, as long as one is sure to get one with a big blade to start with. The one I had was surprisingly good and hard - I thought it would be junkier.

Same thing for thin slots, just a screwdriver ground down, another $1.50.

I order from brownell's often enough to get a good set of screwdrivers at some point, though.

[george wilson]

They aren't REAL cheap,but if you make something nice,you do not want to bugger up your screw slots. Bite the bullet. You will NEVER regret it.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Marv,

those brass saw screws from the German supplier are in stock. They are available only in one size with the head diameter of 1/2". Since they have an imperial size, what is quite uncommon in Germany, I guess that those screws are made in England or in the USA/Canada.

The split nuts we use, have a German DIN specification (comparable to ASA). There are fitting nut drivers available in Germany. Never the less, we will offer shop made split nut drivers for our saws. The blades will be made on a CNC mill according to our wishes and the handles will be turned in a shape we requested.

Here a pic of a prototype. The blade on this is just a shop made 1st version. Those milled blades become shorter and exactly shaped at the tip.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/TJe1lkhQooI/AAAAAAAAB0k/iOHVqdFWXyw/s1600/Marcs+Griff+f%C3%BCr+Schlitzmutterndreher+blitz.jp g

Klaus

[David Weaver]

They aren't REAL cheap,but if you make something nice,you do not want to bugger up your screw slots. Bite the bullet. You will NEVER regret it.

Are you talking about the forster screwdrivers?

$72 for the entire lot of screwdrives they offer - that's a good price range for a birthday present.

[george wilson]

David,I have the Magna Tip. They come in different levels of numbers of tips. By the way,each tip is guaranteed for life. I think my set was the $49.99(?) set. You can get extra tips specified in thousanths of inches thickness as you need them. For antique guns,like my pistol,they are necessary. The old time makers,and some modern ones made very narrow screw slots. They look classier. I won't touch my guns without the Magna Tips now. Too easy to bugger up a brand new screw slot. The screw drivers are definitely worth it if you have nice screws to protect.

[Robert Trotter]

Klaus,

if you are going to offer a screw driver for a "bling" saw (sorry if it sounds negative, I just mean a very nice looking saw + functions AND looks) then maybe some bling to your driver would be appreciated. example:- a slightly more rounded tip on the ferrel and personally I would drop the lines (grooves) and go for the wood and general shape as the main focus rather than a couple of lines. The beauty of the wood is what people, like me anyway, like. You might even change the straight shank part of the wood handle to a slightly concave, flowing line. Anyway that would be what I would be looking for.f I had a lathe I like to try to make one myself but many people are like me and don't but want something special. Maybe you could offer the driver in a matching wood to the handle. More expensive, yes, but people who are buying these saws are probably appreciative of these kinds of details and are willing to pay a "little" extra for it. Just my 2 cents worth. Take it or leave it.

Rob

[george wilson]

Robert,I'm sure you didn't mean "take or leave it" to sound the way it does. I agree,they could work on the handle design a bit more so it lives up to their great handles.

As a craftsman,I can do work to that level of fit and finish only for myself or a few selected customers due to the time it takes to make it. Are you guys making any money doing this work?

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Robert,I'm sure you didn't mean "take or leave it" to sound the way it does. I agree,they could work on the handle design a bit more so it lives up to their great handles.

As a craftsman,I can do work to that level of fit and finish only for myself or a few selected customers due to the time it takes to make it. Are you guys making any money doing this work?

George,

another time I see, that you not only are pretty experienced but you have a keen eye, too since you are able to see, that the making of those handles is rather time consuming.

And: no, we don´t make really money with our saws. If we would calculate seriously the time we need per saw, we were forced to call prices, which we don´t find reasonable. Pedder and me don´t make our livings with tool making. So we have all the time to make the best quality we can. We are not forced to succeed economically.

Klaus

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Klaus,

if you are going to offer a screw driver for a "bling" saw (sorry if it sounds negative, I just mean a very nice looking saw + functions AND looks) then maybe some bling to your driver would be appreciated. example:- a slightly more rounded tip on the ferrel and personally I would drop the lines (grooves) and go for the wood and general shape as the main focus rather than a couple of lines. The beauty of the wood is what people, like me anyway, like. You might even change the straight shank part of the wood handle to a slightly concave, flowing line. Anyway that would be what I would be looking for.f I had a lathe I like to try to make one myself but many people are like me and don't but want something special. Maybe you could offer the driver in a matching wood to the handle. More expensive, yes, but people who are buying these saws are probably appreciative of these kinds of details and are willing to pay a "little" extra for it. Just my 2 cents worth. Take it or leave it.

Rob

Thanks Rob,

we will balance your arguments and discuss with each other if we can change something on our split nut drivers.

Klaus

[Jonathan McCullough]

I have a hard time critiquing or offering helpful suggestions on products I personally don't have the experience or ability to pull off myself. From my perspective all the saw handles and screwdrivers on this thread were created by very talented individuals who have a lot of experience. As nice as it is to be able to see this work, it's even nicer to be able to communicate to the people who have been so generous as to give pointers about how they were constructed. I'm working on a saw handle myself and although I would not and did not make it like George or Pedder might have, I do appreciate the explanation of aesthetics and practical considerations. This is after all, a wood working hobbyist forum.

[Robert Trotter]

Sorry if it sounded wrong, I meant you could just ignore my thoughts.
Myself, I hope to get a stack of "bling" saws soon from Mike W. I am no pro but I appreciate using nice tools.

Rob

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi Rob,

we really appreciate the thoughts and hints on the fora. They helped us a lot to come to this point in sawmaking and will help us in future!

We are no great turners, so a friend turns the handles for us , and I really like the way he does. I think it looks much like the old turn screws. We are not going to offer matching woods, because the screw driver needs thicker stock than the saws do. But probably we'll offer the bits only, so everybody can turn his preferred shape .

The ferules are from LeeValley, BTW. :)

Take care,

Pedder

[Robert Trotter]

I may have used the wrong words;)...I decided to check out the actual definition of "bling" in the dictionary and it is not really what I was trying to get across...it can have a negative ring to it in certain circumstances.:eek:
I didn't intend to insinuate that your saws or Mike's saws were overthetop, just beautiful to look at as well.

I love good quality tools that perform very well but I also am apreciative of tools that are also nice to look at, hold and appreciate the great artistry or engineering or skill that has gone into them...When we can't do things ourselves or don't have the time, equipment or materials some of us are willing to pay others who do. This, I think is a good thing because it allows some people to do what they like to do and make something special for others to appreciate. It also lets old designs and skills live on, while also encouraging things new to develop.

This thread started out sharing some experiences with saw designs and craftmanship and appreciating the work of others. I am sure the shared information will ecourage others to try and make there own tools or simply appreciate what some are able to achieve.

Have a nice one. :)

[george wilson]

I don't think you have dug a hole.:) You weren't trying to be hateful.

[george wilson]

Actually,I don't see that these saw handles are "bling" though. Maybe with a few rhinestones? :)

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Wanna see a "bling" handle?
... no problem, polished ebony (not the finish is polished but the wood itself) with Mother of Pearl inlay.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8mxkzBCYMc4/TLHHsYAe4UI/AAAAAAAAAnQ/Llc2lbXE63A/s1600/CIMG1936.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8mxkzBCYMc4/TLHHrzTo62I/AAAAAAAAAnA/gBNs2AmqFoI/s1600/CIMG1933.JPG

Klaus

[Marv Werner]

Nice!!!!!!

[george wilson]

I like the way you stopped the back's bevel at the handle.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

George,

in the case of the ebony handeled saw the back isn´t chamfered. It´s ovally filed by hand (hard to see on the pics). Only the small piece of the spine which sits in the handle maintains the rectangular cross section. The visible "stop" on the spine is the place where it changes the square design and the sides get ovally.

The spine is flush to the top of the cheeks. The rectangular part of the spine ends flush to the front of the cheeks.

This Design -we call it High End Design- is time consuming to make. The shaping and buffing of the spine takes a few extra hours.

Klaus

[george wilson]

I see it now,by looking at the line the oval makes where it ends at the handle.