Methods for Grinding Primary Bevels and Camber?

[Chris Griggs]

Hey folks,

I'm looking for recommendations on preferred modes of establishing primary bevels and HEAVY cambering of blades.

I am very happy with my honing method using an eclipse style guide, a Norton 1000/8000 waterstone, followed by the Veritas green stuff on mdf. However, when I need to reestablish a primary bevel or remove a chip I'm stuck using course sandpaper on granite which I HATE, as it's quite messy and takes far to long. I also don't have a a good way to establish heavy camber in a blade (e.g. jack or scrub plane). I can get a moderatly heavy camber using the finger pressure on VERY course sandpaper, but this is definitly not ideal.

Right now I'm debating between the following
1. Buy a Worksharp (haven't decide which model)
2. Buy a super course diamond stone and go to town with my honing guide
3. Buy a decent bench grinder and an appropriate wheel

All these methods will cost between $100 and $200 dollars. I'm not completely attached to any one in particular, but will say that I'm particularly interested in opinions of the Worksharp as a grinder.

So what are all your preferred ways for removing large amounts of metal? Is there anything else in this I should be considering? Thanks in advance!

[Matt Benton]

I haven't gotten to this point yet, but will soon, and I'm leaning pretty heavily to #3. Don't think you can beat the combination of price and speed.

Derek Cohen has a good article on this subject on his website...

[James Taglienti]

A while back I bought a cheap, $50 bench grinder and a norton white wheel for it. I mounted it to a countertop in my shop and built a wood rest since the ones that came with it are junk. I thought I;d outgrow it but I still have it, with the same dang wheel, after over 5 years.

[Richard Magbanua]

I use a bench grinder myself. Besides, a grinder is nice to have for many other things anyways. I just grind freehand with the stones I use for my turning tools. I grind away near the middle of the existing main bevel, taking away material close to the edge. Maybe 1/16"? The idea is just to make it easier to re-hone the edge since you don't have as much metal to take away on your bench stone. For a small camber like on my smooth plane I establish it on my coarse bench stone. For a big camber like on my "scrub" or old #5 I use the grinder. In either case I don't come too close to the edge. That's what the bench stones are for. I'm really happy with the hollow grinding since it makes honing much easier and probably saves my stones a bit.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Couple of options, none of which should cost you a lot.
Inexpensive high speed 6" bench grinder. You can get one at any big box store. Don't spend a lot of money on one. You don't need to. These are not precise, exacting tools. They're for very rough, fast work. You should be able to get one for less than $50. Put the coarsest wheel you can get on it. Make your own tool rest and you're good to go. Grind slow and cool the tool in water if it gets warm to the touch.
Hand cranked high speed bench grinder. These are particularly useful if you don't have anywhere convenient to plug in a powered bench grinder or if you just want to go the unplugged route. Make sure you get one that will accept a 6" wheel, which is the most readily available size. Again, put the coarsest wheel you can get on it, make your own tool rest, grind slow and cool often. You can still burn an edge on one of these if you're not paying attention.
Build your own grinder. A 10" replacement wheel for the Grizzly wet grinder costs about $50. Then get some lumber cutoffs from around the shop, a piece of 1/2" mild steel and a couple bronze flange bearings from the big box store, a few miscellaneous pieces of hardware, and build your own. :cool:
http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/uploads/9/4/7/5/947508/7961566_orig.jpg


It's not really fast, but fast enough for what you're looking to do, and no chance of burning an edge. I still use the high speed hand cranked dry grinder for removing a lot of steel, but this one gets the call for simply re-establishing a hollow grind.

[Andrae Covington]

Right now I'm debating between the following
1. Buy a Worksharp (haven't decide which model)
2. Buy a super course diamond stone and go to town with my honing guide
3. Buy a decent bench grinder and an appropriate wheel

Having tried option 2, I don't recommend it. If you think sandpaper on granite takes forever, the coarse diamond stone will too. And you'll wear down the diamonds... wonder how I know (though I think most of the blame goes to trying to lap the backs). The coarsest diamond stone I have is the DMT Dia-Sharp Extra Coarse, which is about 60 micron. They also have an Extra-Extra Coarse, 120 micron, which would be about like 100 grit sandpaper.

Based on a tip i saw in one of the magazines, I made an oak guide, shaped with rasps and files, for the camber and bevel I wanted for my fore plane (a Stanley 28 transitional). I used it on my belt sander with either an 80 or 50 grit belt (can't remember). It still took a little while, but way faster than the diamond stone. Since I already had the belt sander and a scrap of wood, it was basically free. If I didn't own a belt sander, I probably would have bought a bench grinder, which I am still considering for various grinding tasks.

[David Weaver]

For $200, buy two things:
* a benchtop belt sander with a coarse belt (for all of your heavily cambered blades - you can use it freehand for anything that requires much camber, as long as you have a line to work toward or a good eye)
* a cheap grinder (home depot or whatever) and a cheap wheel dresser (HF has a wheel dresser for $3). I have been using gray wheels for a long time and I haven't burned anything in a great while. All you have to do is dress them once in a while, they cut fine.

I can't think of anything you can't grind with those two. I would much rather do heavy camber on the belt sander, but I would also much rather do straight grinds with a hollow on a 6" standard speed bench grinder.

Always wear glasses with everything metal grinding. I was using my belt sander for a quick deburring of something and I wasn't even standing with my face close to it, and I got to make a trip to the ER very late at night so they could pick a piece of metal out of my eye right over the middle of my pupil. It wasn't stuck in far, but far enough that it needed to be picked out.

"grinding" by hand if you have to rehab anything old or any serious chips is a real time-waster in the shop unless you really enjoy it or have a religion that requires you to do it.

[Richard Verwoest]

I use a cheap grinder from the store on the Harbor. You know the one, it has all the freight. I replaced both wheels though. One side with a pink Norton and the other with a buffing wheel. I made my own removable tool rest and also a tool rest/jig for sharpening my lathe tools. I mounted all this to a 3/4 sheet of ply, and then mounted that to an old dresser. I also have a cutoff of a granite counter top on one side for lapping of plane soles if needed. I also purchesed a slow speed/wet sharpener from Sears. It works a bit slow, but will not heat the blade.

[Mike Siemsen]

Take a look at Grizzly's H7760 Combo Belt Sander/Grinder. Use it with a 36 grit White wheel and a 36 gri zirconium belt. get the wolverine tool rest and you are set for life.
Mike

[Chris Griggs]

Wow, I wasn't expecting so many people to recommend inexpensive grinders. I thought I would need to spend at least $100 on the grinder alone. A trip to the "Harbor" may be in order. Although some of the options I listed could get up to $200 I'm definitely leaning more towards spending closer to $100 (or less if possible).


Build your own grinder. A 10" replacement wheel for the Grizzly wet grinder costs about $50. Then get some lumber cutoffs from around the shop, a piece of 1/2" mild steel and a couple bronze flange bearings from the big box store, a few miscellaneous pieces of hardware, and build your own.

Bob, I actually read your blog and watch your podcast regularly. I saw the one you did on this and have definitely thought about something similar. Decided to go with power for now though, mainly because I want to have both hands free, but also out of laziness. Anyway keep that great content coming!


A while back I bought a cheap, $50 bench grinder and a norton white wheel for it. I mounted it to a countertop in my shop and built a wood rest since the ones that came with it are junk. I thought I;d outgrow it but I still have it, with the same dang wheel, after over 5 years.

This is looking more and more like a good option. While I'm still considering a Worksharp the idea of having to costantly replace the sandpaper on the disks is definitely a turn off.


Take a look at Grizzly's H7760 Combo Belt Sander/Grinder. Use it with a 36 grit White wheel and a 36 gri zirconium belt.

This is now near the top of my list. Can hurt to have both the wheel and the belt. The price is right too.

[Chris Griggs]

For $200, buy two things:

I have been using gray wheels for a long time and I haven't burned anything in a great while. All you have to do is dress them once in a while, they cut fine.


As in the ones that come on it? I've always read that thats a huge no no and that it will burn your blades super fast. Does it just require a little more care, or am I missing something?

[Andrae Covington]

As in the ones that come on it? I've always read that thats a huge no no and that it will burn your blades super fast. Does it just require a little more care, or am I missing something?

Clark & Williams has an article (http://www.planemaker.com/articles_grinding.html) about using grinders. They recommend the coarse gray wheels, saying when properly dressed, they generate less heat than the fine wheels. They also talk about technique.

[Steve Branam]

I like to use non-powered sharpening so I can sharpen any time, any place, but for heavy shaping, I use a grinder (I do have a hand-cranked one, so if I need to camber something by candle-light in the middle of a power outage in winter, I can!). No, it's not a religion, honest!

There's just too much metal to remove to curve the camber and form the bevel to use other methods, unless you really have a lot of time to spare (or no choice). It'll also take a lot of abrasive any other way, either consuming your coarse paper, or wearing down your coarse stone. If you only have one or two, maybe it's practical. But any more than that, get a grinder.

I bought a 2-speed grinder from Woodcraft. Not too expensive, and I run it on slow to avoid burning my irons. This is not an operation I would do outside of the shop anyway, so I don't mind using a powered stationary tool.

[David Weaver]

As in the ones that come on it? I've always read that thats a huge no no and that it will burn your blades super fast. Does it just require a little more care, or am I missing something?

They are coarse (the gray ones). People burn irons on them because they don't dress them. Once the wheels become glazed and smooth, they'll burn things if you are ham handed.

Coarse and dressed counts. I think those wheels are 36 or 60 grit or something (that come on grinders), which is coarse enough.

I just don't think there's a need to get the newer wheels when people ground tools for eons with gray wheels. The pink, etc, wheels are extremely expensive for a consumable. The gray wheels are $7. I've been using them for years. There's so little time spent on the grinder that a wipe across a gray wheel with a dresser every dozen or more things that you hollow grind is no big deal. If the rest hasn't been moved, the time spent on the grinder is probably less than 30 seconds.

I would much rather put money in a very high quality used baldor grinder if you could find one. If often wished for a better grinder, but I got finer friable wheels designed for turning tools, and the fineness of them was a lot more dangerous to overheating tool steel.

Keep the wheel dressed and keep it coarse, and it doesn't matter what it is. There really isn't any extra care required if you do that.

[Harlan Barnhart]

I would much rather put money in a very high quality used baldor grinder if you could find on.
I saw one recently at a flea market but the guy knew what he had so I let him keep it. But it was soooooo smoooooth. Just a little spin with your hand and it would coast and coast.

[David Weaver]

Compare that to my Home depot grinder, which is clamped to its base.

There is a HUGE difference between good grinders and cheap grinders, but it's not one that will keep you from having sharp tools.

Caveat my comments above with gray wheels - i use a 6 inch grinder. I already have a tormek, and I wanted something to complement it that was:
1) cheap
2) capable of making deeper hollow

I don't like the idea of spending more to get an 8 inch grinder when you have to compensate by spending more on top of that to get one that's VS or slow speed.

[Jim Koepke]

I like my Veritas Mk II power sharpening system, but for heavy metal removal I tend to use my 4 foot hunk of granite with 80 grit stuck to it. My fingers have been heated up using that on old chisel or plane blades.

For putting on a camber though I think a cheap grinder might be your best choice.

jtk

[Russell Sansom]

I use the tormek for heavy removal. Even used, Tormeks aren't cheap so one of those probably won't fit your budget. But for plane irons, gouges, and chisels, it is a sharpener's dream come true.
If I were still a starving artist, I'd get a cheap grinder and supplement it with a large hand-cranked grinder somewhat like a Tormekq. The smaller bench grinder doesn't HAVE to ruin your tools, and they are indispensable for grinding stuff like lathe cutters.
I've used an Eclipse jig for decades to get a camber. It doesn't take a lot of heavy pressure to get a significant camber and it's pretty easy to control. I've seen similar jigs with barrel-shaped rollers in place of the Eclipse's cylinder, but I don't think the barrel is necessary.

[Don Dorn]

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n124/djdorn/DSCF0004.jpg

I use Ian Kirby's system and it works fantastic. The only difference from the picture is that I found that a side clamping honing jig works even better than the wooden jig that Kirby suggests in his book "Sharpening with Waterstones".

The grinder has been upgraded to a Woodcraft 8" and the bar is now attached to the posts with a board on the bottom so when the wheel wears, you can move it in. I set the bar about 1/8" back from the outer most diameter of the wheel and project the blade so that the existing bevel rests on the wheel.

[Bill Rhodus]

I have a wet grinder that I bought used for $50 and never used (very, very good condition). This grinder consists of a housing with a wet well, white grinding wheel, and a motor/belt drive. The motor is not strong enough in my opinion (looks like washing machine motor installed by orig owner) and should be replaced but would be simple to do. I would be willing to sell for $50 and shipping. If you think a wet grinder may be a possibility, let me know and I will post some pics to see if this is a viable option for you.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the input everyone. Very interesting responses indeed. Especially with regard to the gray wheels. Definitely something I'll try before going and dropping $50 on a white wheel.

Right now it seems the best bet is to get a very cheap grinder, maybe a Ryobi, Grizzly or Delta, a wheel dresser, and then spend the money I save on a good tool rest.

Actually I'd love not to spend the money on the tool rest as well. Don, that one you posted looks pretty darn functional and easy to build. I'd love to see any other tools rests that folks have made.

Bill, thanks for the offer, but I think I'll pass on the wet grinder.


There is a HUGE difference between good grinders and cheap grinders, but it's not one that will keep you from having sharp tools.

Also, what does one get by spending more on the grinder itself. In general what might the differences be (if any) in say a $150 grinder compared to a $50 grinder. Given that I really only intend to use my grinder for rough shaping I'm all for going cheap on this purchase, but if there's something worthwhile to be gained I would consider spending a bit more. Although I should caveat this by saying that there are definitely no Tormek, Jet, or other $300+ grinder/sharpening system is my future.

[David Weaver]

Also, what does one get by spending more on the grinder itself. In general what might the differences be (if any) in say a $150 grinder compared to a $50 grinder. Given that I really only intend to use my grinder for rough shaping I'm all for going cheap on this purchase, but if there's something worthwhile to be gained I would consider spending a bit more. Although I should caveat this by saying that there are definitely no Tormek, Jet, or other $300+ grinder/sharpening system is my future.

You get a nicer grinder, one that spins true and feels true in use.

For rough grinding tools, though, there is no functional difference in the hollow grind or the rough grind as long as you have a rest you can tolerate.

If money counts, go cheap with the grinder, and return it if you can't tolerate it and get another one. A 2 amp grinder with 6 inch wheels will easily grind everything you have in your shop. (I am using the ryobi cheapo that HD sells, and I'm using the stock rest for everything, it's actually not that bad, and both sides would be OK if they didn't have the stupid drill bit notch in them. It doesn't take long to develop the touch to use a fairly small rest, and the rest on the ryobi grinder is two-way adjustable (in and out and angle) and better than the cheapest one HD offers. I believe the ryobi one is cast aluminum, and a lot of the cheap grinders have stamped alloy metal rests about the size of two nickels side by side - they are unusable).

The wish for a nicer grinder is a lot the same as slobbering over premium planes. Nobody will be able to tell from your work, but it's nicer for you as the user.

I did blow some dough on a tormek, though I got it used for a little more than half of new. It's nice, but I probably wouldn't get it again if I had to choose what to do with $300. The biggest benefit of it, to me, is the ability to do rough work on japanese tools, which don't tolerate dry grinding well at all because they lose their temper at a very low temperature.

[Derek Cohen]

As I understand, the important difference between a cheap grinder and a not-so-cheap grinder lies with the bearings. I gather that the cheap end are made of plastic. Does this make a difference - not just to longevity, but with regard to a smooth rotation? The fact is that grinders, both cheap and not-so-cheap, tend to shake-rattle-and-roll if the wheels are out-of-balance. Like a car's wheel, they can be balanced. Simply make a mark on the wheel as a starting point, then loosen and rotate, tighten and test. Keep going until the vibration is minimised. Still, I expect a grinder with good bearings to run with the least vibration. This does make grinding easier.

My recommendation is to throw away the grey wheels unless you are very proficient with grinding. For grinding, the only wheel of worth is an extra coarse one (no more that 36 - 46 grit). Frankly, I would not go beyond 46 grit even on a 3X. I find a Norton white is a good compromise - I have a 3X, which is excellent in grinding cool, but is very fast wearing (both a good and a bad thing). Keep all wheels dressed religeously to prevent glazing, which promotes heat.

Slower speeds to help reduce heat. Either a half-speed 8" or a full-speed 6" will be more forgiving that a full speed 8".

Belt sanders tend to run the coolest of all. The combination of a slower speed, coarse belt (46 - 60 grit) and a long belt (to dissipate heat build up) are the best solution for turning a square edge into a camber for a scrub plane. I prefer a hollow grind, but one can use the belt sander to do the roughing out, and then move to a wheel.

Here is a jig I made several years ago for grinding a scrub's camber: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Grinding%20a%20Scrub%20Plane%20Blade.html

Regards from Perth

Derek