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Austin Works
10-04-2010, 2:24 AM
In the picture the top saw is a Spear and Jackson with the filing pattern that is most familiar to me. The bottom pattern is my Gramp's Disston #7. I searched on "variable gullet" in the archives and on the web and I didn't get anywhere. In softwood the #7 is faster and smoother than the S&J. In the picture it appears that the teeth on the #7 are not uniform in height but it is not as pronounced across the whole blade, but the pattern that looks like an inverted w does hold true.

So my question is, why is this pattern there, and should I try to duplicate it as I learn to file?

thanks

Jim Koepke
10-04-2010, 2:57 AM
There are a few possibilities here.

My first step would be to place a straight edge across the top of the teeth to insure that they are of the same height.

The second step would be to determine the fleam angle by placing a small saw file in one of the gullets. The #7 appears to have a sharper angle than the S&J saw.

I would also inspect the base of the gullet in an attempt to determine if the saw may have been sharpened with a file that was bigger than needed for the job. This may be the most likely occurrence.

A saw with a smaller fleam angle will crosscut faster and smoother than one with a steep fleam angle. There is a point of diminishing return due to faster wear.

I think tools for working wood and the Norse woodsmith both have charts on fleam and gullet angles.

I haven't gotten my old computer running again, so I do not have all my bookmarks available at present.

jtk

Erwin Graween
10-04-2010, 4:38 AM
Hi.

There is a good article, about saw filing and particularly about 'slopping gullet' here : http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/index.html

In fact there is a link in the page that brings you to a 'slopping gullet' page, but you can reach it directly there : http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/sloping%20gullets.html

I hope it does help you.

Best Regards.

Dan Andrews
10-04-2010, 5:45 AM
The saw with uneven teeth has a bad case of "big tooth-small tooth. This is a condition caused by your orientation to the saw as you file every other tooth in the saw , then turn the saw arround in the vise and file the other teeth. There is a prety good explanation of this condition and its remedy in "Saw Filing -- A Beginner's Primer" at www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html (http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html). I still find this to be the hardest filing error to overcome. My first saw sharpening looked like I was trying to turn a crosscut carpenters hand saw into a loggers 2 man crosscut saw.

Your grandfather's saw probably has lots of set and sharp teeth. Like my first attempt, that will cut real fast in soft wood, but make for a real rough cut.

David Weaver
10-04-2010, 7:26 AM
99.9% sure that the saw on the right is very intentionally filed that way. You can tell by looking at the bottom of the gullets that either the saw was tilted or the file was tilted when sharpening (and not just a little) - the sloped gullet method.

"Cows and calves" from an inexperienced sharpener look different.

There seems to be a lot of debate about which is the "better" method. I've filed saws both ways and find that there's not too much difference in the cut speed, feel and quality of the cut on my saws - that things like set and rake make a bigger difference. I'm no master sharpener, though.

From what I've read, the way we usually see crosscut teeth (even height, flat or even bottomed gullets) is a product of machine filing where there is no ability to tilt the saw or the file.

Robert Rozaieski
10-04-2010, 8:05 AM
I agree with David. I think the saw on the right was intentionally filed that way. The tops of the teeth look even. The illusion of larger and smaller teeth is caused by the sloping gullets. If you flip the saw over, it should look the same way, but the teeth that looked larger before should look smaller now.

The sloping gullet works fine for sharpening a crosscut saw, though it means you have to consider one more angle when re-sharpening; specifically, the slope angle (in addition to the rake and fleam angles). Some say it provides more gullet space for removal of sawdust and makes for a cleaner cut. I can see the benefit in softwood, which typically creates larger, more resinous dust particles that tend to want to "stick" in the cut more. But I think it would make for a more fragile tooth when sawing very hard woods. I think the benefit of the sloping gullet is very minor over a traditional cross cut filing considering the extra concern with another angle when filing. Especially since end grain cuts are either hidden inside joinery, or cleaned up with a plane if they are going to show in the finished product.

If you sharpen a lot of saws and have a lot of practice maintaining the angles by feel, then it's something you might want to play with to see for yourself. However, if you only sharpen your own personal saw and do so infrequently, I'd say skip the sloped gullets and just go with a traditional CC filing pattern.

Oh, and skip the sloped gullets for a rip saw. Adding slope basically turns a rip saw into a crosscut saw, because it adds a bevel to the front of the tooth, which is something you don't want in a rip saw.

David Weaver
10-04-2010, 8:41 AM
Oh, and skip the sloped gullets for a rip saw. Adding slope basically turns a rip saw into a crosscut saw, because it adds a bevel to the front of the tooth, which is something you don't want in a rip saw.

It does exactly that. I intentionally filed an atkins saw that was filed 8ppi rip (don't know why) to crosscut focusing on leaving the rake around 5 degrees and sloping the gullets, the face of the tooth is barely touched, though some incidental filing is hard to avoid. It is an aggressive coarse cutting monster. It's fun to use on 2x4s because of the way it cuts, but it (predictably) leaves results that are not acceptable for tidy work because of the lack of rake, I think (though I don't know if more attention to the front of the tooth would help. I filed another disston #7 a lot closer to the way the one in the picture above is filed (the one with sloped gullets), and it has quite a lot of rake. It's very pleasant to use, but so is a flat filed crosscut saw that's got the same aspects.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 9:00 AM
Hi Austin,

What you see in the picture is sloped gullets on the S & J and the No.7 without sloped gullets.

The S & J appears to have the "big tooth little tooth" syndrome, if you were to turn the blade around, it would look the same from the opposite direction. Sloped gullets are supposed to look that way.

Both saws are filed correctly, one with sloped gullets, one filed with the file perpendicular to the side of the blade but with a fleam or bevel angle. They are both crosscut, so they both actually have the fleam or bevel angle. The words fleam and bevel mean the same thing.

One might cut smoother than the other but it isn't because of one having sloped gullets and the other not. Both style of filing can be done so they both cut smoothly.

As a beginner, I suggest that you not concern yourself with the sloped gullets. You can take that on later. It's just one more angle to deal with as you are learning. To begin with, learn to control your rake angles and fleam angles consistently. I don't want to go into all the details here. Go read all the treatise on filing handsaws and learn about the rake angle block or guide block that you make for the far end of your files. Leif Hanson does a good job explaining it on his website and also refers you to other treatise. http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/

Big tooth, little tooth syndrome or cows and calves is a common problem that you will experience. Everyone who files handsaws has this problem. You will notice it when you see every other tooth skinny and the others fat in width and the depth of the gullets vary. The saw can still cut quite well, but it's not a properly filed saw. It can screw up the setting of the teeth as well. When it's at it's extreme, it will slow down the cutting speed because the gullets are not as deep as they should be. What causes it? One cause is, the rake angles are not the same after you file from right to left compared to when filing from left to right. Another cause is, when filing from right to left, the gullets are deeper than when filing from left to right. The reason this happens is because more than half the flat is filed off during the first pass or not enough is filed off. Not maintaining a consistent fleam angle can also contribute to it. To fix the problem, you will have to reshape the teeth and basically start over. This means filing straight across with no fleam angle but with the rake angle you want. The teeth will look like rip teeth but with a rake angle for crosscut teeth. The most common rake angle for crosscut teeth is 15 degrees.

All the various instructions you will read on the internet will instruct you to first file every other tooth, then turn the saw and file all the other teeth. I have found with 8PPI and smaller, it is best to not turn the saw. Go ahead and file every other tooth from right to left, then angle your file for the fleam angle the other way and file from left to right. Then move your saw in the vise and repeat the same thing. I have a vise that clamps a 28" blade, most vises have shorter jaws that cause you to have to move the saw one or two times for each pass. With teeth 7PPI and larger, I find it best to turn the saw due to too much vibration. Too much vibration will rapidly dull your file, plus it's hard on the ears.

Some people will want you to believe that filing a saw is as easy as sharpening a chisel or a plane iron. Well, it's not. However, it's not all that difficult either. Once you learn all the various steps it will become easy for you. It's kind of like learning to use a computer. Well, not THAT difficult, but once you learn what to click on and when, it becomes much easier. With practice, all the things that seemed confusing and difficult will become second nature.

It is very rewarding when you transform a beat up old rusty neglected saw into one that smoothly slices through wood with ease. Using a saw that cuts properly just as it was designed to do, is a joy.

Have fun, :)
Marv

george wilson
10-04-2010, 9:23 AM
The blade on top is not filed correctly. This type tooth will cut equally well in either direction,but not especially well in either. File your teeth like the bottom saw,but don't tilt the file downwards,and you won't get the 'big tooth, small tooth" look. Note that the teeth are actually the same size in reality. The tilted down file caused that.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 10:02 AM
I said..

What you see in the picture is sloped gullets on the S & J and the No.7 without sloped gullets.

The S & J appears to have the "big tooth little tooth" syndrome, if you were to turn the blade around, it would look the same from the opposite direction. Sloped gullets are supposed to look that way.

Both saws are filed correctly, one with sloped gullets, one filed with the file perpendicular to the side of the blade but with a fleam or bevel angle. They are both crosscut, so they both actually have the fleam or bevel angle. The words fleam and bevel mean the same thing.

One might cut smoother than the other but it isn't because of one having sloped gullets and the other not. Both style of filing can be done so they both cut smoothly.

Sorry, Austin, I got the two saws turned around....It's the No.7 with the sloped gullets, not the S & J.

Note....all crosscut saws have teeth that will cut in both directions, however, due to the rake angle, they will cut more aggressively on the push stroke as they are intended to do.

A crosscut saw that is filed intentionally to cut on both the push stroke and the pull stroke will have a rake angle of 30 degrees. These teeth are called "peg" teeth. I don't recommend peg teeth, they cut extremely slow.

Marv

george wilson
10-04-2010, 10:13 AM
I think you are saying the same thing as I am,Marv. Yes,proper teeth will cut some on the back stroke,but much better on the forward stroke.

Some years ago there was an article in "Fine Woodworking",I THINK,where the author was teaching the readers to make peg teeth. I don't think the magazine should have allowed the article.

Jonathan McCullough
10-04-2010, 10:34 AM
In another thread I asked about peg teeth--the only example I've seen was on a large 26-inch saw in a Stanley 358 mitre box. Has that been other people's experiences? It seemed like that was the way the saw was originally sharpened, too.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 10:40 AM
George,

Yes we are basically saying the same thing regarding "peg" teeth, however we differ on the bottom saw. Filing sloped gullets does not cause the big tooth, little tooth problem. The saw in the picture, if looked at from the opposite side would look exactly the same as the side we are seeing. Pictures can be very deceiving, especially when photographing saw teeth. You can get big tooth little tooth when filing sloped gullets, but that isn't the cause. The main cause is due to filing too much or too little when trying to file half of the flat created when jointing the teeth. This important step in filing any handsaw can only be done accurately and consistently through practice. Another cause can be, not maintaining a consistent rake angle when filing from right to left versus filing from left to right after turning the saw.

As for the article you refer to in "Fine Woodworking"....I doubt if there are very many editors who are experienced saw filers who know diddly about one tooth profile versus another. The editor in this case probably saw nothing wrong with a tooth purposely filed to cut in both directions.

Marv

David Weaver
10-04-2010, 10:47 AM
Is the term peg tooth interchangeable with plug tooth?

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 10:50 AM
Jonathan,

I've seen it on the all-metal docking saws. These saws have like 3 or 4PPI and are filed with crosscut peg teeth. These saws are a bear to file.

For a miter saw being used in a miter box, it makes some sense to make the saw cut slower and less aggressive on the push stroke or cut equally on both the push and pull stroke. Having said that, I would want the saw to cut a little more aggressively on the push stroke with say a 20 degree rake. The back of the tooth would then be 40 degrees. Included angles will always be 60 degrees, the same as a triangular file.

Marv

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 10:52 AM
David,

I've not heard the term "plug tooth". Do you perhaps have more information regarding that term?

Thanks,
Marv

george wilson
10-04-2010, 10:57 AM
Not sure what you are saying,Marv. I avoid the problem by holding my file horizontal while filing saws. No"big-little" tooth problem if you hold the file right. I must have filed hundreds of saws we made,and continued to resharpen as toolmaker.

Most of the other craftsmen,except the cabinet shop,didn't know how to file saws. One know it all filed his saws so badly we had to cut his stupid bullet shaped teeth off and re tooth them. Fortunately,he got fired for other reasons.

David Weaver
10-04-2010, 10:57 AM
Plug tooth is a term I've heard before for a saw that has the same rake on the front and back of the tooth, so that it cuts both ways.

Like an old buck saw for firewood.

Maybe the person who told it to me should've been using the term peg tooth.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 10:59 AM
Hi Robert,

I agree with everything you say. In my opinion, you have it exactly right. I never add fleam to rip teeth. They cut best when they cut like little chisels. Some filers do it so the saw can do both rip and crosscut, but, my experience is, a tooth profile of that kind compromises both the ripping action and the crosscut action.

Marv

David Weaver
10-04-2010, 11:05 AM
A little bit of fleam on a rip saw limits blowout on the back of the cut, but not much - maybe 5 degrees? On cuts that size, it doesn't make much speed difference and it makes the saw a tiny bit easier to start.

I haven't seen it intentionally added to a panel saw.

The first time I cut dovetails with a crosscut saw just to try it, I asked on here if anyone added some fleam to their rip joinery saws because I was really impressed with how clean the back side of the cut was, and how the saw actually cut a lot better than I expected (i would imagine that wouldn't be the case on a wide tenon cut - it would).

Mike W mentioned having added 5 degrees of fleam to joinery saws, but I don't know if he does it as a matter of policy or if he's done it by request.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 11:12 AM
George,

I also hold the file horizontal or perpendicular to the blade. But I have, at times experienced the big tooth, little tooth problem anyway. I have also filed hundreds of saws and do not file sloped gullets. When I got the big and little problem, I was puzzled as to why. Took me a while to finally figure out what causes it. Are you saying that you have never had the big and little problem? If you haven't, I'd say you are the exception. :)

I think it is helpful when instructing beginners to point out to them that they should expect the problem to occur and why it occurs. When I was first learning, I couldn't find anyone who could explain why it was happening. I had to figure it out for myself.

Marv

harry strasil
10-04-2010, 11:29 AM
I think one reason for the big/little gullet thing is a file cuts easier with a slope to it and doesn't make as much noise or vibrate as much while filing.

I file my Rip saw teeth with the front 90° to the line of teeth and with about a 3 to 5° fleam angle and in pine using my frame saw I can easily cut from 2 to 5 inches per stroke depending on the material.

Also in I believe its Bernard E. Jones's complete and practical woodworker books or in one of the old Audels manuals I have, there is a reference to "PUG" tooth with equal rake fore and aft of the tooth and filed crosscut. I filed an old disston this way and after you get used to putting down pressure on both the forward and back stroke, its almost like the proverbial hot knife thru butter, with about 3 strokes needed to completely cut thru a modern 2 by 4 the long way. Its the fastest cutting hand saw I have ever used. FWIW

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 11:36 AM
David,

There are a number of conflicting and or confusing terms regarding saws in general. Not unlike most anything of significance.

Another example is "pitch". Some people think of pitch as rake while others think of it as teeth per inch. In fact, "pitch" is used when describing threads per inch on a bolt of screw. The word pitch should not be used when relating to saws. It just adds confusion to people new to the subject.

Another is TPI versus PPI. Teeth per inch versus points per inch. There is always one tooth count difference between one and the other. The number stamped below the handle on a saw plate is always PPI or points per inch. Always one less TPI than there is PPI. You probably know all this stuff, but others might not.

Marv

john brenton
10-04-2010, 11:40 AM
There is a guy on ebay who specialized in restoring beautiful old handsaws. He goes into detail of his filing techniques/principles and it may be interesting to you. You can't post links here so I'll just give you the item number. Scroll down and you'll see his details:
110593112858

harry strasil
10-04-2010, 11:44 AM
And don't forget, Chordal Pitch, Circular Pitch, Pitch Diameter and Pitch Line when making gears and gear teeth.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 11:49 AM
Harry,

I filed an old disston this way and after you get used to putting down pressure on both the forward and back stroke, its almost like the proverbial hot knife thru butter, with about 3 strokes needed to completely cut thru a modern 2 by 4 the long way. Its the fastest cutting hand saw I have ever used. FWIW

My experience is exactly the opposite....slowest cutting saw I ever used. I don't like having to put much pressure on a saw to make it cut. Way too much energy required. It should cut pretty much on it's own as the teeth bite into the wood. Peg teeth don't do any biting on their own.

Peg teeth were used on circular saws used for sawing firewood that were driven with a belt to your old John Deere tractor. You want a saw that doesn't grab and requires some push to make it cut in that situation. The teeth cut quite well because the saw is turning at a high speed. I would never advise a beginner to file their handsaws with a peg tooth profile.

Marv

harry strasil
10-04-2010, 12:12 PM
I don't encourage anyone to file "pug" tooth, I just tried it because I thought it was interesting, and when I show people how it cuts I use a lot of down pressure both ways just to watch the look on their faces at how fast it cuts.

Just so you will know!

Jr.

harry strasil
10-04-2010, 12:14 PM
Somewhere I read that Henry Disston said that using one of his 8 ppi crosscut hand saws filed and set properly, that it should take no more than 3 or 4 strokes to cut through a 2 by 4 and back then they were a full 2 by 4 inches.

David Weaver
10-04-2010, 12:17 PM
I would guess it works well on bucking saws, too, because it's how the teeth are filed on the old saws hanging on my mom's wall.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 12:17 PM
Austin is just beginning to learn how to file handsaws.

The problem I have with these kind of discussions, and I've been involved in a lot of them, is, the discussion tends to wander off in all directions. While some of the information offered pertains directly to the poster's original questions, that is in fact helpful, other subjects can and are very confusing to a beginner. I'm just as guilty as the next guy when it comes to wandering off topic.

I suggest to Austin and anyone just starting out, read all the articles that are on the internet that are tutorials, written by the experts. Pick one of the treatise that you can most easily understand and stick with those instructions until you become acquainted with all the basics. Once you do that, you can then better understand and relate to most of our wanderings off in different directions on the subject.

Marv

john brenton
10-04-2010, 12:55 PM
I see what you're saying, in a nutshell "keep is simple..." and I agree. I'm no master saw filer and a lot of what I read goes over my head too, but in this age of information it would be a sin not to load yourself up with as much information you can find, especially when it comes to methods. My grandfather knows a ton about methods but he and I have never gotten into it at great length, and he was already in the power tool era as well so even he awes at the way I do things. It's hard to come across people that have something they want to impart.

I read up as much as I can even on methods that I am already very satisfied with. There's always a little something you can take and add to your method, even if the general practice is over your head. As the journeyman who taught me most of what I know about pipe fitting used to say, "There's ten ways to do something and none of them's wrong."




Austin is just beginning to learn how to file handsaws.

The problem I have with these kind of discussions, and I've been involved in a lot of them, is, the discussion tends to wander off in all directions. While some of the information offered pertains directly to the poster's original questions, that is in fact helpful, other subjects can and are very confusing to a beginner. I'm just as guilty as the next guy when it comes to wandering off topic.

I suggest to Austin and anyone just starting out, read all the articles that are on the internet that are tutorials, written by the experts. Pick one of the treatise that you can most easily understand and stick with those instructions until you become acquainted with all the basics. Once you do that, you can then better understand and relate to most of our wanderings off in different directions on the subject.

Marv

george wilson
10-04-2010, 12:58 PM
Marv,many years ago I did have the big/little tooth problem. like Harry says,there is a tendency to slope the file up to avoid chattering. Pretty soon,I noticed that I needed to hold the file horizontal. This isn't complicated. I'm still not sure what you are saying.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 2:07 PM
George,

Do you always joint the teeth before you file them? How do you know for sure what rake angle you are filing and how do you maintain the same rake angle consistently for each tooth? Understanding what I am saying might be in your answer to these questions.

Marv

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 2:13 PM
John.

I agree with you, the more info the better. But the stuff I'm mainly referring to that can be confusing to a beginner is the stuff that is boarderline off topic or totally off topic that contributes to possible confusion.

I too will on occasion reread the tutorials and treatise that I read when I was first learning. I still get pointers from time to time and have adjusted some of my methods along the way as a result.

Marv

harry strasil
10-04-2010, 5:32 PM
Marv wrote, " How do you know for sure what rake angle you are filing and how do you maintain the same rake angle consistently for each tooth? "

I was lucky enough to acquire some saw filing aids from a bygone era.

1. Disston 3D saw vice, complete.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sawfileholders001.jpg

2. Speed Corp. file holder.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sawfileholders002.jpg

3. Unknown brand file holder.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sawfilinggauge.jpg

in use.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sawfileholders003.jpg

george wilson
10-04-2010, 5:58 PM
Saw sharpening is a basic skill that everyone who is called a journeyman(at least in Colonial Williamsburg) should be able to do,just as they should know how to sharpen their other tools.

If I had been Historic Trades Director,instead of Master Tool and Instrument maker,I would have made it mandatory for every journeyman to learn it. A few times I suggested my teaching classes,but somehow the director never got it off the ground.

Marcus Hansen,my former journeyman,sharpened the saws in the cabinet shop. I had trained my own staff for the 16 years I was in public. Other than him,I had to get the director to issue orders that I,or Jon,in the toolmaker's shop,would sharpen all saws. Otherwise,their teeth got massacred. I didn't want to see the saws we made for every craftsman in the Historic Area get their blades all used up.

One time,the supervisor of the housewrights called me over to look at their pit saw. He actually acted like the saw was cursed,saying that he had worked on it many times,and it would not stay on line. He was sure we couldn't figure out what was wrong with it,because he had worked on it so many times. He wanted to throw it away,and get another saw!!! I had to assure him several times that we'd get it working.(This is the guy who I found,after he was fired,had filled bullet shaped teeth on all the saws we had issued them.)

I went there and saw 2 problems: first,there was no set on one side of the saw,secondly,the teeth on one side were WAY HIGHER than on the other side. I mean 1/8" higher!!!

I told the sawyer what to do. Several days later,he called me,still having problems. We went back over there to find that he had gotten the teeth the same height,but one side still had no set. I repeated my instructions to him. He finally got it right.

I was determined that they had to learn to sharpen the pit saw,at least,because it got dull every day,sawing dirty logs. Plus,it was a Garlick,soft as butter like their other saws I had filed in past years. MY OPINION,of course:).

When the supervisor came around again,I told him how we had gotten the saw working properly again. HE SAID HE HAD NEVER LOOKED AT THE SAW!!!! That guy was incredibly frustrating,lying through his teeth. He succeeded in irritating too many people eventually,I guess.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 6:14 PM
Harry,

Thanks for the pics.

I have a 3D also. Yours is a newer version than mine. Yours is the latest model Disston made. I've always been a bit ticked at Disston for not making the jaws a full 13" long to accommodate a 26" saw and only have to more it once. But noooo, they made it just under 13" causing you to have to move the saw two times. The last move is for only about an inch of teeth. They actually should have made the jaws 14" long for a 28" saw blade.

I have sold a number of the 3D vises on eBay and a few of the filing jigs, as some people call them. The jigs are good for maintaining rake and fleam and straight across filing, but I find them a bit cumbersome to use. The work best for touch-up filing, but if you are doing a saw that needs some major tooth work, I find them lacking when filing the larger teeth.

If someone has only a few saws to file for their own use, the filing jig is certainly a good way to go. They usually sell for a pretty good price on eBay. I sold a vise just like yours and a really nice filing jig, also made by Disston, on eBay for about $275. The vise had never been used. It still had the black finish down inside the jaws.

I got really lucky a couple years ago and spotted a 28" Acme vise on eBay and got it for only $114. I still have my 3D vise but have made a sturdier base for it to eliminate the clamp on stock base. The base on the 3D,s don't clamp very well.

I built a base for the Acme vise so I can rotate the whole vise when I need to rotate the saw.

Thanks again for the pictures. I love seeing how other people live.

Marv

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 6:23 PM
George,

Your story reminds me of a lot of machinists. They are a breed of their own. I've hired quite a number of them and have learned a lot from many of them. But there's always one or two who know everything about everything and do not hesitate to make everyone around them know aware of it. These types usually make more mistakes than anyone else. I've had a few of them working for me, but only for a short time.

Marv

george wilson
10-04-2010, 6:45 PM
I don't know how the supervisor got fired. One day I mentioned to my director that he had annoyed me. The supervisor laughed,and said"He annoys you,too?"

This was after the days of Roy Underhill,in case anyone is wondering. The whole "Rural Trades" dept.,including House Wrights,Windmill,etc.,had been set up as 1 department.

harry strasil
10-04-2010, 7:01 PM
I outfitted a young preacher friend with almost a complete set of Woodworking tools for his Missionary trip to the wilds of New Guinea where there was no power grid, and in doing so I gave him a crash course in hand tool WWing. I let him have my E.C. Stearns small folding saw vise, that I kept in my demo tool kit. And I had a devil of a time replacing it, cruising flea mkts, antique malls and such, but I finally found another in better shape than the one I donated.

Its really handy and does not take up a lot of room or weigh much.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sawvise.jpg

I got to checking my assortment of saw vises and found 2 more Disston Saw Vises with the holes to attach the file holder. They are not marked with a number, just have Henry Disston and Sons on them and one has been used so much the cam lever is worn out.

Marv Werner
10-04-2010, 7:56 PM
Harry,

Those 3D,s with the worn out cams can be repaired. I've repaired several of them.

Marv

george wilson
10-04-2010, 10:10 PM
Harry can fix them. He's a toolmaker,machinist and blacksmith as well as woodworker.

Marv,you may be too new here to know who some of us are.

harry strasil
10-04-2010, 11:38 PM
Marv, this is some of Mr. Wilson's work at Williamsburg, FWIW
George is the one on the left.
Posted at Mr. Wilsons request.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/other/georgewilsonsaws.jpg

george wilson
10-05-2010, 12:22 AM
I am not much of a computer whiz. Thanks, Harry. There were other benches full of saws,but getting the photographer down to make pictures was not too simple as he had a busy schedule.

I didn't bother to get the crosscut and rip saws photographed,as I considered them as common tools. Previously,we only got special presentation pieces photographed. Then,a few jealous types began asserting that we only made presentation pieces. Whenever we had done displays,I had put out pictures of the David Brinkley surveyor's compass,and other such things,as they were our chance to do extra nice work. Our shop was a target for that talk since we didn't have to work in public,or talk to tourists all day. Actually,we had the very,very best job in town. We really did!! The more intelligent craftsmen among them did not say things like that.

These were copied from the Seaton tool chest,which survived without the tools being used. A gentleman owned it,who never got into the hobby of woodworking he aspired to in the 18th.C.. Something like that.

The little Dalaway dovetail saws were the most prized because of their .015" blades,at least,in the Anthony Hay Cabinet Shop.

Front row left: 1 Kenyon dovetail saw,1 Dalaway dovetail saw .015" blade. One Kenyon backsaw. Next,a rare White back saw,only 1 known to survive,but popular in Va. in the earlier 18th.C.. Next to it,a somewhat later Cartwright saw,by now they had the special saw screws we see up till the later 19th.C.. Next,another White,on right,a Kenyon.

These 7 saws represent the remainder of styles on the bench.

Only 1 Kenyon crosscut saw shown here. The rest were already given out.

all these saws had completely freehand filed teeth. Teeth were initially punched on an old Burro saw tooth puncher I was lucky to find. I had to make the spacer racks for the smaller saws.

The bench is 16' long.

David Weaver
10-05-2010, 7:53 AM
I wonder how those saws have fared in use there. Shame that some of the people who use them might not appreciate how good they are, or understand how to take care of them properly.

george wilson
10-05-2010, 8:41 AM
The Master Cabinet Maker,Mack Headley,at least has said they are the best saws ever made,speaking to the Antiques Forum. He and his staff,and my old staff are the ones who count the most in doing highest quality cabinet making or instrument making with them. The saws have been taken good care of in their shop. The Furniture Conservation Shop has a set,that they might better emulate early tool marks with them,when making replacement parts for original pieces.

Most of the rest are looking more like original saws from being used in out door,or unheated environments. The Wheel Wright's,Cooper's,and House Wright's shops are either not heated,or actually out of doors. There are scattered other shops with some of these saws that have better environments for keeping rust down.

All of these saws were well stamped to prevent them from "becoming antiques" after acquiring enough aging. It has happened more than once that things made years ago in Williamsburg have popped up for sale as antiques. Silver with their stamps"worn off from polishing over the ages",and old wrought iron work are a few examples. Someone offered to sell a wrought iron piece to Collections years ago. They called the master blacksmith to look at it,asking if he knew anything about it. He said,"Yes,I do. I made it 30 years ago!"

David Weaver
10-05-2010, 8:45 AM
Most of the rest are looking more like original saws from being used in out door,or unheated environments.

Maybe they should run them to the kitchen and dip them in lard!

george wilson
10-05-2010, 9:41 AM
Things tend to get pretty dirty in Williamsburg,especially in the sites exposed to the out doors. Constant handling of things by visitors contribute a lot to wooden handles getting blackened. Wind blowing dust,with the doors constantly being opened and closed all day also contribute. It's mostly the constant showing of things to the public that gets them dirty.

Years ago,a genius decided to cover all the streets with gravel. That was a total debacle. The iron wheeled wagons going by,crushing gravel beneath their wheels was very annoying. Kind of like scratching a blackboard! It made even more dust.

Eventually they took all the gravel up. Must have cost a fortune to maintain. Probably rapidly wore out wagon tires,too. Made interpreting in the shops harder to hear,too.

I don't know how they sorted out the horse manure!! Everyone was glad to see it go. Of course,the originator of the idea wasn't there to see the mess he had made,or to hear the constant grinding noise. He stayed in his executive office a mile from the area.

Generally,the constant activity in the shops is the worst factor. Tools in my own shop do not get that old grime on them. I wash my hands often.

Marv Werner
10-05-2010, 10:03 AM
George,

Most impressive display of replicated saws.

How did you manage to accumulate such a large number of saws before distributing them to those who would use them?

When did you produce them? That number of saws represents one hellava lot of rasping and sanding, etc. Did you borrow some of Santa's helpers during his off-season?

Did you do all the filing of teeth? During the period that those saws represents, saw makers punched the teeth using a huge machine called a "fly press". Andrew Lunn uses one to punch the teeth on his all-handmade saws. He shows his set-up on his website.

Looks as if you made all the saws to be put together as sets of saws that any one cabinet maker would need.

Do you have or have you thought of building a website so you can share your body of work with interested tool makers and woodworkers?

I see you had a nice machine shop set up there. I have a lathe about the size of the one in that picture. I don't have a Bridgeport type mill but I do have a smaller drill-mill that gets me by.

What are you doing now days? Are you now retired or are you still contributing to the effort there at Williamsburg in some capacity?

Thank you Harry for posting the picture. And thank you George for sharing some of your past accomplishments. When one sees all those saws in one place, it kind of overwhelms the senses, but at the same time is inspiring and humbling as well.

Marv

george wilson
10-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Marv,re-reading my posts will answer some of your questions. I'll answer them in order:

We made all the saws first,then issued them when they were all done. The picture shows the batch we got the museum photographer over to shoot.

Crosscut saws and rip saws were not shot at all,as I considered making these type tools an ordinary,every day type of work for us. We had only shot special presentation pieces before.

This batch was made in 1992. Most of the work was hand work. We cut out the handles with a bandsaw and jigsaw. But,the changing contours of the rounded handles made using router bits not too useful. We rasped and scraped the round contours by hand. The brass backs were folded like the originals.

By 1765(?) or so,rolled spring steel was available,so we used rolled 1095 spring steel for the blades,buying it in12" wide sheets,and shearing the blades out.

Original saw screws were very roughly sand cast in the 18th.C.. I made up about 24 saw screws of different sizes as needed,and had the Geddy Foundry make a tree of them,and cast them. Then,we slotted them with a hacksaw,and threaded them.

I made some special bits to drill tapered,flat bottom holes to set the screws in. The screws were set in tight,and ground flush with the wood like the old ones.

The original Cartwright saw had large saw screws about 3/4" in diameter. They looked like fried eggs they were so rough. Set in,and peened in place.

As mentioned,I was lucky to find a small tooth punching machine,Burro brand,while making the huge cider press screw at a country machine shop. The guy had the machine,so I bought it. It had long,interchangeable racks for different tooth counts. I had to make extra racks for the finer teeth counts on the smaller saws.

The saw teeth were filed just freehand. I am able to do very accurate file work,so is Jon. So is our replacement. I taught him before we retired. He was a silversmith,trained at Tiffany's for 5 years,then worked in Williamsburg for some years. Like me,he prefers to do a variety of work.I may post close ups of some saw teeth The finest tooth count is a special one I made for sawing guitar fret slots at 20 TPI. I've also re filed my blitz back saw. 50 tpi?

The lathe is a 16" x 40",replaced later with a 19" X 80" for wagon axle work. We made all of the wagon axles and wheel bearings for all the carriages in the museum.

To bad I didn't start making photos of the more common tools earlier. I have a picture of the workbench filled with dozens of wooden planes,too. Trouble is,I posted these photos about 150+ pages back,and the computer won't let me post the same pictures again.

If you go back several pages,I did another burst of pictures a few weeks ago on this section of the forum. Also,if you go to the FAQ section at the top of the Neanderthal section,look down to the "making your own tools" section,you will see more of my tools. Down further, the moderator posted pictures of my inlaid baroque guitar and other things.

I am retired,currently making a guitar and doing repair/parts replacement on high class antiques my main customer keeps buying. Also, my wife and I have a home jewelry making business. I do the dies and punches,other tooling,and some of the pattern making for her. She does the vast majority of the pattern making,though.

My last significant job was making a couple of boxes for Queen Elizabeth. I cannot re post them either.

harry strasil
10-05-2010, 11:49 AM
Some of Georges Planes made for use at Williamsburg.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108432

harry strasil
10-05-2010, 12:05 PM
Marv, here are 2 peoples approach to cutting teeth in saw plates.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=98825&highlight=toother

David Weaver
10-05-2010, 1:04 PM
Thanks for that, harry. I missed that on the first go around.

Marv Werner
10-05-2010, 4:15 PM
Thanks again Harry for the pics,

It's always good stuff when new and innovative ideas are presented. Both of the toothing methods are interesting to say the least.

I read your profile about how you are a self taught machinist and work outside the proverbial box. Me too. Learned from reading, watching and listening. And making mistakes and becoming an expert at fixing them. I'm kind of lazy by nature. My laziness is incentive to make it as simple as possible. Anyone can design something complicated. I prefer reducing the task down to the lowest denominator. Make it only as good as it needs to be. Beyond that, it's a waste of time and money.

I have a simple tool I made for marking or filing new teeth on a blank saw plate. I made it primarily for retoothing the smaller teeth that we see mainly on backsaws. I'll try to find a picture of it in my gigantic picture folder on my computer where I can rarely find what I want due to my lousy unorganized file system.

To start the tooth spacing, I use thread gages, or a hacksaw blade or another backsaw saw blade that has the PPI I want. Once I notch or file in 4 or 5 teeth, I no longer need the gage and I'm on my way on down the edge of the saw plate. Once I have notched the plate, I'm ready to file in the teeth. It's fast and it's accurate.

Thanks also for the picture of George's wood planes. Question, does he ever make just a one-up of something? LOL. :D

Marv

David Weaver
10-05-2010, 5:27 PM
The boggling thing to me about those planes in that picture is that each appears to be a little different - the wedges are different, some look shorter than others.

So it couldn't have just been a template and copy kind of thing. The only thing that's really "wrong"(:)) is there is no way for any of us to go purchase or try a set.

george wilson
10-05-2010, 6:13 PM
The wedges of each type of plane should be the same. Since they aren't fitted with blades yet,they are just shoved in differing amounts.

Marv,making 1 offs is exactly what I PREFER to do. I never liked production,but with 80 craftsmen to equip,some production couldn't be avoided. They gave me money to do it. Worked out nicely.:)

Marv Werner
10-05-2010, 7:22 PM
Yeah, even though I spent many of my pre-retirement years involved with production manufacturing, personally, after doing exactly the same thing more than five times, I'm bored as hell. I'm pretty much of a prototype kinda guy. Most of my machine shop time was designing and building jigs and fixtures and tools relating to making it possible for someone else to do something on a production basis or making something to speed up a particular process or operation. Most of the production aids I made would be unrecognizable to anyone who might encounter them today. Lots of those so-called "whats-its". Can't even brag and gloat about them now, because no one would know what I would be talking about. I will still give it a good try though when some unsuspecting poor soul happens to cross my path and give me an opportunity to show off some of my past inventions until their eyes roll back into their head. :D It's just one of our many traits as machinists/toolmakers, as I'm sure you can identify with.:)

Makes life worth live'n, donut?

As I like to say...."if'n ya cain't gloat, it wasn't worth do'n".

Marv

harry strasil
10-05-2010, 7:40 PM
Marv wrote, "Anyone can design something complicated. I prefer reducing the task down to the lowest denominator. Make it only as good as it needs to be. Beyond that, it's a waste of time and money."

I preferred making something as simple as possible, and I always overbuilt it if possible, I wanted it to last and keep my customer going as long as possible.

Try this for one of Mr. Wilson's one offs. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108202&highlight=drill

Marv Werner
10-05-2010, 8:00 PM
That drill is just ridiculously stunning! Now that's what I'd call toolmaking. Not too shabby for a prototype. There are toolmakers, then there are toolmakers.

George, don't you have to make at least one more just to make sure the first one wasn't an accident?:D

Ok, I'm done bragging about my stuff......:o

Marv

george wilson
10-05-2010, 8:56 PM
Maybe I can find other views of that drill that haven't been posted yet. I can't recall what views I posted. There's just 1 seen in the FAQ section,where Harry got that one picture. The forum won't allow re-use of pictures. Not enough computer memory to allow it says Keith Outten,the boss.

I'd have to take new pictures if the old ones won't load.