Need Saw Jointer Help

[Dan Andrews]

This saw jointer was given to me. I think I know how the file is mounted in it, but don't know what the little removable plate is for. The plate screws into the recess shown on the right side of the jointer, but is not adjustable. I again I think I know how to joint the saw, but don't understand how this jointer is used.

I saw a jointer that had guides on each side of it to keep the file square to the teeth. That made sense to me. Am I incorredt about this being a jonter at all?

Help Please!:confused:

[Marv Werner]

Dan,

If I'm not mistaken, that type of jointer is used on the large two man crosscut saws. Is that what you are jointing?

Marv

[harry strasil]

To answer your question, yes it will work to joint handsaw teeth, any means to keep the file square to the teeth will work, some even cut a kerf in a scrap piece of 3/4 stock to slip the file into to keep it square to the teeth.

But, Marv is dead on, Its for use on the large 2 man and one man saws.

The slot in the small removable part sets over the Drag teeth so you can joint them a little but lower than the cutting teeth.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/twomansaw001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/twomansaw002.jpg

You use a special file on these type saws, its got a flat side, and the top two sides are angled so that it looks somewhat like a chisel with the sides ground down to clean up dovetails.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/twomansaw003.jpg

The rakers also have no set.

[harry strasil]

This is a Handsaw Jointer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/handsawjointer001.jpg

It fits over the saw blade like so.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/handsawjointer002.jpg

[Dan Andrews]

Thank you Marv and Harry. I am not jointing a 2 man saw. I have been trying to avoid jointing my small hand saws at all. When I have jointed a couple of them I just held the file as square to the teeth as I could. You shure cleared up a few questions I had on the subject. Harry, I didn't expect to see photos, but they shure are helpful. A picture is worth a thousand words indeed.

[Marv Werner]

Dan,

I don't use a jointer. I just make sure I hold my file so it is level as I slide it down the tooth line. You have to tilt it quite a bit to get it to joint a significant more on half the teeth versus the other half.

Dan, are you just starting out learning to file handsaws? If so, here's a couple pointers.

Most important is a final light jointing after you have filed the saw, where you just barely get a flat on each point. Then do a final touch up to file half and half of those very small flats. At this point, (pun intended) each tooth should have a sharp needle point. People talk about having to break-in a freshly sharpened saw before it will cut smoothly and not be grabby. So it will cut smoothly from the git-go, very lightly slide a slip stone down the teeth as if you are jointing them. This effectively breaks the teeth in, in advance. And don't forget to always lightly joint the sides of the teeth after setting and or filing. This helps to get you a smoother cut surface.

Marv

[harry strasil]

Have Camera will use, altho I have several thousand pictures already stored that I can search for and use. The first two pics were in that category.

[Dan Andrews]

Good tips Marv. I have been touching up saws by following what was already there for years. Only since I strarted using hand tools more regularly did I read up on how to sharpen and bought some good files and a saw vice. I have sharpened maybe 6 saws so far. I have improved quite a bit on this steep part of the learning curve. I have a small fine tooth pannel saw (Disston D8, 12ppi, 18", 1878-1888) whose teeth are in bad shape. I have time right now to do a careful, thourough job and will finish with your suggestions. Thanks.

[Marv Werner]

Dan,

Good luck there with your old Disston panel saw. Those kind of saws make for a great finishing saw. That's one of my favorite size saws to sharpen. It will have been tapered a little more than some other saws are. This means it won't need but very little set in the teeth. More than likely about what we do to backsaws, about .004 per side. Start with the minimum set, it's always easy to add a tad more. To reduce set, you should rejoint the teeth and file it again.

I ALWAYS joint the teeth before filing them. Always. If you don't, you have no reference as to how much you are filing off each tooth. The smoothest cutting saw is one that has each tooth doing it's EQUAL share of work. When you have a few teeth sticking up above the others, those teeth are hogging the work and preventing the others from doing their share. Adding to that, you are not getting as smooth a cut as the saw is capable of. Some people claim that the reason a hand filed saw cuts better versus a machine filed saw is because the teeth are uneven. That is just pure bunk, in my opinion. You will notice a striking different how much smoother the cutting is once the saw is into the wood so that 6 or more teeth are engaging the wood. Before that, even a perfectly filed saw will feel as if the teeth are a bit uneven. You feel this unevenness at the beginning of the cut less and less as the number of teeth per inch increase.

Have fun :)
Marv

[Joe Rogers]

I believe the "smooth cutting hand saw due to hand sharpening" is the slightly variable pitch not the difference in height. The jointing gives a baseline for tooth height and the pitch can be changed slightly without affecting the height during sharpening. Just sharp helps a whole bunch. :D
Joe

[Marv Werner]

Joe,

I'm not sure what you are referring to with "pitch". I'm guessing you mean rake angle.

If the rake angle varies from tooth to tooth any noticeable amount, it will effect the quality of the saw's performance.

If you are filing your own saws, it's really not an issue. But for me, because I file saws for others who pay me, my goal is to do it as accurately as I possibly can. I want to file in that "WOW" factor so when my customer makes that first cut with his/her freshly sharpened saw, the first thing that comes to their mind will be.....WOW!

Having said that, when I file my own saws, I also what to feel that WOW thing.

I need for both the height of the teeth and the rake angle and for crosscut saws, the fleam or bevel angle to be the same on each tooth. Each tooth is equally important as the one before it and the one after it.

Of course, a saw will cut better having been sharpened compared to when it was when it was dull, that is if it hasn't be improperly filed. I guess it's my knit-picky machinist brain that makes me think in terms of precision. Those of us who think that way probably need therapy....:D

Marv

[Christian Castillo]

Hi Marv, pleasure to see you posting on Sawmill, we spoke via e-mail not too long ago and you showed me some of your great restorations. Regarding the slip stone to break a saw in, to clarify what I have understood, do you mean place the slip stone in between the center of the tooth line and just run it down lightly such as this?:
(Stone)
.\\ ///
|\ v /|
| \ / |-------Teeth


Thanks for your time.

[Marv Werner]

Hi Christian,

Good to see you again.:)

No, not down the V you see as you sight down the tooth line of a crosscut saw. Use a flat slip stone, the orange colored kind. It's extra hard and won't easily groove when you slide it down the teeth. A really fine file will work too. You lightly slide it down the top of the points like you would if you were jointing the teeth. All you are doing is removing that sharp tip top needle point and also making all the points even with each other.

Now, if your freshly sharpened saw is not grabby when you do a first test cut, and it is cutting smoothly, and you are happy with it, you really don't have to do anything. It's pretty much a matter of preference. Some people seem to like a grabby saw. I don't.

Marv

[Christian Castillo]

Sounds good Marv, I'll use the tip the next time I file.

[Joe Rogers]

Sorry Marv...I really meant TPI sorta like...kinda. :) I woulda said rake or fleam if that is what I intended. However as precise as a human can be, and that is darn consistent, the TPI ,rake and fleam, as well as tooth height have to have some variation. Some. And that is what makes the experience of using that saw special.
Joe

[Marv Werner]

Hi Joe,

Purely for the sake of discussion.... I have never understood the logic on the part of saw makers to have the number stamped into a blade just below the handle to indicate "points per inch" PPI. There are in fact that number of points in any one inch as long as we are only referring to one inch. The fact of the matter is, if the number is 10 for example, there are actually only 9 teeth per inch or TPI, when we are referring to all of the inches the full length of the blade.

I bring this up because of your use of the word "pitch". The word pitch is used when referring to screw or bolt threads. With saws it's only PPI or TPI. I have no idea how the word pitch got tossed in there.

As for the differences between teeth that are sharpened unevenly making the saw perform better, I can't see the logic in that premise. I consider a special experience using a freshly sharpened saw is when all the teeth are the same.

I suspect that perhaps that idea got started because some filers didn't want to or just couldn't file all the teeth close enough to the same. I will say, having filed more than a few saws, there will be some differences no matter how skillful or how careful a filer does his job. These differences, in my opinion, will not make the saw perform better. However, when the teeth are filed as close to the same as is humanly possible, it will for sure perform better than a saw that has been filed without the effort put forth to file them as close as possible, while having the thought in mind that it doesn't matter because filing them uneven will make the saw perform better. I don't think you are inferring that, but I have heard people say that an uneven filed saw will cut better than a machine filed saw.

I say this mainly for the benefit of those who are just getting started. A beginner should want to strive for excellence while knowing that perfection is a myth. That goes for everything, but especially when filing handsaws. We should not infer that they can be sloppy with their filing and feel they have done a better job of filing then if they had attempted to file all the teeth the same.

I realize there is much controversy with this issue, but in my opinion, it's pretty much just basic common sense.:)

And that's my story and I'm stick'n to it......;)

Marv

[george wilson]

The teeth on my Roll In bandsaw's bi metal 3/4" blades are made uneven to avoid harmonic vibration. But,the band runs continuously,and vibrations could build up.

I think that applying that to a hand saw is splitting hairs,and is a needless waste of time. In reality,you would end up with a few teeth doing all the work(most likely). The bandsaw blades I use do have the teeth all at exactly the same height. They are filed on a precision machine. Would a hand filer trying to vary the teeth be as accurate?

Nicholson at least used to make their file's teeth at slightly uneven heights. Their theory was that as the high teeth wore,the sharper lower teeth would begin to cut. Personally,I think that in actual practice,you'd be pushing the dull teeth into the material even harder to try to get the new,lower teeth down into the metal.

As to numbers above the teeth:If the original saw had them,I put them on to make accurate reproductions.

[Marv Werner]

Love it when someone actually agrees with me.:)

Marv