park bench repair pricing?

[John Packwood]

A coworker ask me to rebuild her NATO park bench. It is six slats painted and bolted on cast iron uprights. Doesn't sound like too big a job. I have about $305 labor involved at $60/hr for milling and assembly and five hours painting slats at $25/hr. This seems like an awfully lot to bill for labor. Plus $59 for parts.

This project involved going to the lumberyard to get 2 X 4S, planing and ripping them down to a straight 1.25" X 3.0". and cutting to equal length. Painting a coat of primer and two coats of paint. Grinding the heads off rusty bolts for removal, painting cast iron uprights and assembly. I actually have seven hours plus time running to get materials which is not billed.

7 hr @ $60 = $ 420 labor + $59 materials seems an awfully lot for this project. I backed off painting to $25 since it is only a paint brush and not expensive tool use. Do you have any thought on billing for something like this? As it sits the bill reads $367 for parts and labor. Much appreciated if you do.

John

My goal is to bring in a shop rate of $60/hr which seems reasonable for overhead. But I also do not want to gouge her either.

[Philip Rodriquez]

It all depends on how much you like your coworker. If it were me and I liked the person, I'd do it for around $200.00 to $250.00.

$60 an hour is great for your day job... but this one did not require any skill or planning. Just my opinion.

[John Packwood]

It all depends on how much you like your coworker. If it were me and I liked the person, I'd do it for around $200.00 to $250.00.

$60 an hour is great for your day job... but this one did not require any skill or planning. Just my opinion.

Yes, I like my coworker, want peace in the workplace. Does your price above include materials?

This is my dilemma. While yes there is not a lot of extraordinary skill and thought in this project, the work was done. Most people do not have the skills nor tools to do the work. That is why the mechanics make the big bucks. But I do not want her to feel gouged as I often do when the plumber or drain cleaner comes.

I had the local welding shop cut something for me once. Was not an awfully lot of $$ but when I questioned it he told me I could buy a $6000 machine like he used and not charge myself so much. His answer made a lot of sense to me. I paid the $10 realizing it cost a lot less than owning the machine and it was a one time expense. I have also had a wheelchair lift repair man spend a lot of time to fix my wife's lift and tell me he could not charge me for all the hours he took as it would not really be fair.

My invoice so far lists all the materials and labor with a workplace family discount to bring it down to what I would feel is reasonable. But then I am cheap and am amazed at what people will pay for some things.

A different coworker made my wedding cake. She gave me the workplace family discount and it was a lot compared to the charge for the local bakery. What goes around comes around. Guess maybe it's my turn to give the discount.

Thanks for you thoughts.

[Ed Hazel]

I find it best to advise before I take the job it will x dollars per hour plus materials. Also give a rough idea of the hours remember it always takes more time than you think.
This puts the ball in their park if they know going in it may cost $500.00 and are ok with that cool if they figured it would only cost 100 or so they can decline.

Personally I try not to do much for friends it usually ends bad I have had many come to me and ask me to make something and show me the picture in a catalog and I tell them it will cost more than "Sears" asking price just for the materials. For some reason they think I can make a hand crafted one off piece from real wood cheaper than Sears can have 10,000 made in Asia from junk material.

[Ben Hatcher]

We probably all understand the extra time involved in dissasembly, prep, etc. However, I think your average Joe consumer is going to see it as, "It took you 7 hours to machine and paint 6 slats?!?!"

Without an estimate to ensure you're both on the same page, I think you're at risk of making someone feel ripped off. If this bench is the kind that I'm thinking of, and you told me "that'll be $500 and I'm not even charging you for the 7 hours I spent driving back and forth to the store..." I'd tell you to enjoy your new bench.

[Philip Rodriquez]

Exactly!

The risk of taking side jobs and not providing an estimate, in writing, is that it could cost you the friend. Myself, I would never hire someone that couldn't do it as a bid job. Hourly, for an amature, is crazy!

Sorry, but one of you will learn a lesson from this.

[Damon Stathatos]

Personally I try not to do much for friends it usually ends bad I have had many come to me and ask me to make something and show me the picture in a catalog and I tell them it will cost more than "Sears" asking price just for the materials. For some reason they think I can make a hand crafted one off piece from real wood cheaper than Sears can have 10,000 made in Asia from junk material.

The above assessment from Ed just about says it all. People usually do not consider what they are really asking for and figure that a repair should save them (considerably) off of the cost of new. Tell that to a General Contractor and he'll laugh in your face, tell you it'd be cheaper to tear down and start from scratch than to do a major remodel. Anyway, my point is that your coworker will probably fall out of their chair at anything over a couple of hundred dollars and maybe even then.

The only thing I question is the term you used, a 'NATO bench.' I'm not sure if that's an acronym for something such as 'nothing out of the ordinary' (although that would be NOOTO) or if that means it's a bench actually from NATO however, if it means that it's a very special and valuable bench, then perhaps your coworker expects it to cost a lot.

One last point, if I asked a friend for something not expecting it to cost much and after the fact they qualified it with a $60 per hour labor charge, unless my friend was normally a very highly paid professional in some other field, I would be taken aback at that.

Bottom line is that doing work for friends almost always leaves one of the parties if not both feeling taken advantage of and that's why it's best to spell it out beforehand.

[John Packwood]

The above assessment from Ed just about says it all. People usually do not consider what they are really asking for and figure that a repair should save them (considerably) off of the cost of new. Tell that to a General Contractor and he'll laugh in your face, tell you it'd be cheaper to tear down and start from scratch than to do a major remodel. Anyway, my point is that your coworker will probably fall out of their chair at anything over a couple of hundred dollars and maybe even then.

The only thing I question is the term you used, a 'NATO bench.' I'm not sure if that's an acronym for something such as 'nothing out of the ordinary' (although that would be NOOTO) or if that means it's a bench actually from NATO however, if it means that it's a very special and valuable bench, then perhaps your coworker expects it to cost a lot.

One last point, if I asked a friend for something not expecting it to cost much and after the fact they qualified it with a $60 per hour labor charge, unless my friend was normally a very highly paid professional in some other field, I would be taken aback at that.

Bottom line is that doing work for friends almost always leaves one of the parties if not both feeling taken advantage of and that's why it's best to spell it out beforehand.

This bench came from Germany while she was stationed over there. It is a bench that was in someplace that NATO owned. I told her $200 above materials and yes the reaction was WHAT just for painting some boards? Part of the problem I have is that is always takes more time than I figure so I usually bill what I figured it should take. I did not plan on having to grind off the heads of carriage bolts and drive them out with a punch as they were too rusty to turn off. Yes I would understand that reaction if she handed me the boards and all I did was to paint them.

Since I am trying to get a side business started and am inexperienced at the pricing I would rather that it is me that learns the lesson. I told her we could talk about the price but she said she would pay me the charges. At this point I will be very careful to lay out all that it took to accomplish the job. There are some thing I am not even charging for such as painting the legs. She did not want to worry about the legs but after the nice looking slats were bolted on I couldn't stand it and painted the rusty legs so it really look nice, shiny and new.

$60 per hour is my goal. When you consider the cost of machinery, maintaining a building, utilities, taxes, travel for material and something for my time I actually do not think it is out of line. How ever I am willing to negotiate because I do not want her to feel gouged . At $200 it actually come to about $19per hour.

[Ben Hatcher]

When you consider the cost of machinery, maintaining a building, utilities, taxes, travel for material and something for my time I actually do not think it is out of line. How ever I am willing to negotiate because I do not want her to feel gouged . At $200 it actually come to about $19per hour.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is how I approach my side business.

Just because it took you that long doesn't mean it takes that long. You're not a pro. You're an amateur trying to go pro. Should your customer pay for you to learn? Is your work really worth $60/hr at this point? Would you hire you to work for you for that rate? If you were paying yourself, would you pay $60/hr for everything you did? I realize that you did some work to rehab the supports, but any project that is made better by using 2x4's milled down is not worth almost $400 in labor. You'll see that this is why guys who do this for a living use the best quality materials. Teak wouldn't have required painting and you would have ended up with a high quality product worthy of a $60/hr rate.

I suggest that you do work for friends and family for the cost of materials and maybe a few bucks for your time as a way to figure out how long it takes to do things, how to work efficiently, what materials to use, etc. Once you've figured that out, you'll be ready to give accurate quotes that you can stand by.

just my $.02

[John Packwood]

Ben, I always appreciate bluntness. Teak would be a great choice. We don't get much teak in the Midwest. I found buckwoodcraft has teak. At $13 per running foot for 15/16" thick by 3" wide by 7' X 6 would be $546 plus shipping plus a nominal charge for my labor. Teak should be oiled annually. I know my customer does not want to mess with that. She wanted paint like the original. The original was done in fir so I used fir.

Just because my goal is to bring in $60/hr does not mean I will be charging her that for all the hours. There is what the market will bear. No I would not hire me at that rate but my boss would charge a customer that rate to pay me plus taxes plus insurance plus all the other overhead expenses.

The original post was to get a feel for what other people who do this kind of work thought would be a fair price for such a project because the cost was getting outrageous if everything was added in.

While yes I am an amateur because I no longer work in construction I have worked as a carpenter and finished a four year journeyman program. I have acquired many skills in this area. Professional is by definition someone who is paid for what they do. I admit I worked in the labor end and not the billing and management end. But the skills are there.

No money was amount was mentioned when we started this project she just wanted it done. Now I am trying to give her a bill that is fair to both of us. In this case it will be pretty cheap for what she is getting.

Thanks to all for their input. Personally I don't have the brass to bill what mechanics in my area bill especially to a friend.

[lowell holmes]

My take on it is that the best way to destroy a good hobby is to make it a business.
I charge my friends for the material (sometimes if they can afford it) and nothing for the labor.

[Ben Hatcher]

I'm sorry to have made presumptions regarding your skill level. I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, you asked about pricing. For a friend, I'd probably charge $100 + materials for a bench rebuild and chalk up any work I did to learning what things to point out and discuss when generating a quote. I actually did a bench rebuild last week for my mother. I assumed that disassembly would go pretty quickly, but like you, found that all of the fasteners were rusted requiring10x as long to remove. Now I know for any commercial job to check for that and account for it in my bid.

The other thing that I'd suggest you consider when making quotes is, as others have suggested, bid the job as a set cost, not as an hourly job. That does a few things. One, it sets expectations for your customer. Two, it puts constraints on you. If you know you're only getting say, $200 for this job, you'll probably challenge yourself to get results you can be proud of in less than a day's work. That's when you start to get creative with your solutions and efficient in your shop. Good luck.

[brian c miller]

How did you figure that your hours costs $60 each?

Is that what you make at your day job?

Is that a fully loaded shop rate ((includes mortgage, insurances, all utilities, Productivity * Labor rate, Consumables, Tools, Machine payment / deprecation, profit?)

At $60 per hours Hours you are saying your hobby costs you $124,800 less profit and salary to operate on a 9-5 basis. Seems pretty high unless you are doing this day in day out to earn a living.

I'd cut the coworker a break especially b/c you didn't quote the job before hand and $400 for put some new slats on a bench may seem excessive to your co-worker.

[Ronald Blue]

I think we all dream that we could get $60 an hour for our work but reality is you will likely do well to get even $10 an hour on a job like this and probably much less. Obviously you encountered obstacles you didn't anticipate. I occasionally get asked to do things for co-workers. I never expect to get more then cost of materials and a little to invest into a new toy in my shop like a router bit or supplies or something like that. If you are only a hobbyist woodworker to expect more will create ill will from friends and co-workers. However the upside could be no one will ever ask a favor again. Keep us posted on how this comes out.

[Philip Rodriquez]

John, god love you... but you should look at what the pro's charge for their work. I'd bet that most of them are lucky to get $35.00 as an hourly rate... and they could do it in 1/2 the time.

Also consider the complexity of the job and the materials used. In this case, you used 2x4's and a paint brush.

As a starting point, I would look at pricing a job like this based on material cost - multiplied by 3 or 4. So, in this case, $59 X 3 = $177.00 or $59 X 4 = $236.00

If it was a one-off piece of custom furniture, you could go with a factor of 5 to 10, based on the complexity... but again, you will need to get better at estimating your time... and your pricing should be up front, ALWAYS.

[John Packwood]

How did you figure that your hours costs $60 each?

Is that what you make at your day job?

Is that a fully loaded shop rate ((includes mortgage, insurances, all utilities, Productivity * Labor rate, Consumables, Tools, Machine payment / deprecation, profit?)

I wish. I work in government working with the public making a modest amount. My employer handed out statements called our employment package to all employees the last couple of years. After taxes, insurances such as health, unemployment, Workman's comp, social security, Medicare, etc,etc what I get to keep is about one third. At a shop rate of $60 /hr that means I will make about $15- 20 net if things are done by the book or a little less. Yes this the rate to cover all consumables tools, machinery, taxes, etc.


At $60 per hours Hours you are saying your hobby costs you $124,800 less profit and salary to operate on a 9-5 basis. Seems pretty high unless you are doing this day in day out to earn a living.

I'd cut the coworker a break especially b/c you didn't quote the job before hand and $400 for put some new slats on a bench may seem excessive to your co-worker.

Cutting a coworker a break seem to be the consensus here and I think I have to agree. My goal as I near retirement age is to retire early enough to move where ever my wife needs to go earn a living while I do something else to augment a pension income. I have seen all the older people here working at fast food or Wal Mart. I do not want to do retail or be a greeter. Instead take all the skills I acquired along the way and do something I enjoy doing. Unless you have a skill that companies want very badly the silver ceiling is still there.

I quit working in construction back after Nixon was in the White House. The economy was such that construction was down 90%. I was making about $7.50 an hour then with no benefits. Back then I could work for the local university doing similar work for $5.00 with benefits and come out the same for what effort I had to put in for what I received. What I have done is a continuing self education in area as furniture and cabinet making. Victorian architecture restoration, and a myriad of other areas while investing thousands of dollars in tooling.

[Paul Murphy]

Hi John, I see you had many varied replies save one that I expected to see.

Some jobs just aren't worth bidding on, as there is more work than the final value of the project. It's easier to tell a co-worker or neighbor that you can't do their project than it is to present them with a bill for a couple hundred dollars on an item that wal-mart sells for $99.

You mention the various skills you have aquired over the years, and that is the key. The projects you want are those requiring your higher skillset, where your desired hourly rate can be supported by the finished value of the project.

Best of luck in transitioning to a profitable small shop. I too couldn't be a greeter at wal-mart, it just isn't in me.

[Tom Hammond]

This project involved going to the lumberyard to get 2 X 4S, planing and ripping them down to a straight 1.25" X 3.0". and cutting to equal length. Painting a coat of primer and two coats of paint. Grinding the heads off rusty bolts for removal, painting cast iron uprights and assembly. I actually have seven hours plus time running to get materials which is not billed.

If this item is what I think it is... a park bench with 'fancy' cast supports, I would estimate this work description at about 2.5-3 hours TOPS. Complexity of job requires a mid-level shop tech at $18/hr. Assuming $60 in materials, this job costs me about $115. There's no reason to charge more than about $160-180 for this job. You replaced a few boards and bolts and did a little painting... I mean, come on. If my guy would take more than 3 hours from start to finish on this, I'd be questioning him very closely as to why.

If you charge for time on trips to the lumberyard... unless it's a specialty item... you are simply being unfair to your customer (I know of one guy who tries to charge for time AND gas AND mileage - and he's idle about 75% of the time... no wonder). If you take on a job, customers expect that you have the materials to do it. If you don't have professional equipment, (e.g. a paint booth with sandblaster and paint sprayer) to do this job and you charge for additional time because it simply takes you longer... unless there is a quality value-add, you are also being unfair.

If you're going to have a target of $60/hr, and that's what you plan on charging, you should tell them up front and give a realistic estimate on the hours. If they accept it, and it takes longer... bite the bullet and absorb it. I've had jobs in which I ended up making less than $10/hr... for some pretty complicated finish carpentry... but that's just the way it goes sometimes.

[John Packwood]

Tom,
Thanks for your input. Actually I charged her very close to what you said you would. My goal is to get the efficiency up to where the shop rate is about $60 per hour. The skills at doing the work are not the issue but the proper amount to bill fairly. I did not say I was going to charge her that for this job. Charging $160 for the job paying $60 materials and $45 labor to your mid level shop tech lives you with $55 for other overhead.

Come on is the way I felt when the drain cleaner came last time and spent 20 minutes holding on to a spinning cable and billing me $150. From you comments your shop rate must be around $40 per hour. I don't know where you are but in my area plumbers, sheet metal, and other mechanicals are around $70 per hour. Auto repair rates are a little higher sometimes.

[Bud Millis]

Thats a lot of money for a bench repair. I'm sure at some point in time she must have painted something or could have painted this bench.