Let's talk about French Polish :)

[John Coloccia]

Someone in a different thread had asked about french polish, but I didn't want to hijack the thread so I made a new one. I'd love it if others chimed in with their own techniques. Everyone has their own rituals they develop. This is just how I learned to do it.

With french polish, you use shellac flakes and alcohol, as Rick says. I use Everclear or Graves XXX because I don't like the denatured alcohol...the additives leaves a funny film.

You start by making the applicator (the "fad"). I usually tightly wad up some cheese cloth and wrap with a clean cotton cloth. Twist it tight and cinch it with a rubber band. You want to save the cheese cloth and just replace the cover when necessary, so when you're not using it, but it in a tightly sealed bottle with a little bit of alcohol. It takes a little time to get the cheese cloth working right, so you don't want to lose that!

Anyhow, you typically start with a "spit" coat. This is a series of light coats. Use a dropper or applicator bottles (I use little applicator bottles) to put a few drops of shellac and alcohol on the fad, and lightly rub...and rub....and rub...and rub, using small circular swirls. It will dry almost immediately to you can apply quite a few coats very quickly. I don't use any oil for this step.

It will actually start looking nice at this point. Don't get excited. It will look like crap 2 days from now once the shellac shrinks into the grain. LOL. The spit coat is just there so that when you grain fill you don't bleed different colored wood into each other. The filler is pumice and it's abrasive.

So you let it sit for a couple of days, and now you look at it. You need to decide wether you just continue or if you need to grain fill. Somethimes, you're okay to just start the real buildup phase. Other times you have to grain fill.

So you take your fad with no shellec, just alcohol, put a little pumice on it and rub....and rub....and rub....and rub. Eventually, you will fill the grain.

Now you're ready to start! Take the fad and put some shellac, a little alcohol and some olive oil (yes, olive oil...mineral oil and walnut oil work too), and rub...and rub...and rub....and rub. By now you should be realizing two things: 1) this isn't rocket science and there's a lot of room for variability, and 2) this finishing technique is pretty tolerant of contaminants, dust etc. Just try putting some olive oil in you lacquer :)

The oil is a lubricant. Often, i'll just lightly dribble a few drops onto the piece itself and spread it around with my fingers instead of putting it on the fad. Some people don't use it, but you will have a very hard time doing a good french polish without it. You have to use pressure. The goal is to rub each layer into the previous layer, and that needs pressure. At this point, you go back and forth between rubbing in little circles for a while, and taking long straight strokes. And DON'T EVER STOP MOVING. If you stop moving, you will leave a mark. Don't worry, it's not a disaster. You're just going to have to sit there and rub it out....and rub...and rub...and rub...

Then you're finally almost done. At this point, some people sand the finish to level it. I try not to sand it. If I'm paying attention during the rest of the process, everything should be pretty smooth and level at this point. I do a "spiriting off" at this point. You use the fad with only alcohol and take nice long, straight strokes. This levels everything and gets rid of all the swirl marks and stuff. This is where you really need to be awake or you'll make a mess.

It is time consuming, but it's not as bad as many think. When you get going, you could really finish a french polish in about a week, including drying times, working maybe an hour or two per day. Then you let it harden for a bit (2 weeks to a month) and lightly buff it.

I didn't mean this as a tutorial. I meant it more as just some insight into what the technique is like. Here's some picture of some the "tools" and a project in process.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac335/jcoloccia/French%20Polish/DSC02023.jpg
The two sides aren't really different colors. That's just how the light is hitting it and interacting with the early coats of finish. Ditto for the splotchyness. It's just an optical illusion from the angle. If I tilt it the other way, the right side looks darker. The top's not scratched...it's a bear claw figure :)

You can see that even with the early coats, it's starting to take on a deep, lustrous shine.
http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac335/jcoloccia/French%20Polish/DSC02024.jpg

For a comparison, here's what it looked like before I started the finish, so you can see what the finish is doing to the wood. You can see that the finish adds quite a bit of beauty to the wood. This particular wood, primavera, is actually pretty ugly without finish, IMHO.
http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac335/jcoloccia/inlay/DSC01998.jpg

I use blond flakes for the spit coat, and then I typically use a blend of amber and orange flakes for building the finish. Here's the tools of the trade.
http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac335/jcoloccia/French%20Polish/DSC02026.jpg

Again, I didn't mean this as a tutorial. There are great resources out there for that. I just wanted to give a flavor of what a traditional french polish entails.

[Jim Koepke]

Nice discussion thread.

I tend to leave a lot of things unfinished. My wife is happy with a coat of paint most of the time.

I like the feel of bare wood. Sometimes I will add a stain with BLO or tung oil to seal it.

jtk

[Larry Fox]

I really like French Polish as a finishing technique as it leaves a very nice finish with amazing clarity. I agree that it takes a bit of getting used to but not difficult. I use a technique very similar to what you describe above but I use Mineral Oil instead of olive oil - I think any non-drying oil should work. When rubbing I tend to vary my stroke pattern going from small circles, large circles, figure-8's etc just to break things up and reduce fatigue. I think that it also makes for a more consistent finished surface. Trick is to be able to switch patterns, reverse directions etc without EVER STOPPING. As you point out, stopping is not the end of the world but it does definitely grab and leave a mark.

I was initially taught to Frenck Polish by Jeff Jewitt but have deviated a bit and modeled my technique more or less after what is outlined in this article.

http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html

As far as materials for the pad go, I use cheesecloth and the cover cloths that Homestead sells - they are fantastic, cheap and really do make a nice applicator. I have used t-shirt material in a pinch but I strongly prefer Jeff's covers. For shellac I am extremely hesitant to use anything but Jeff's shellac - it is, hands down, the best I have every used.

I am starting to sound like a rep for Homestead Finishing. Definitely nothing other than a satisfied customer - guy knows finishing and sells really good supplies.

The part of the process that I find most challenging is the pore filling part. The recommendation is to use a very sparing amount of pumice but the temptation to use more than you need is VERY strong. However ,if you do you will be left with small "piles" and / or the pumice will revert to white long after the finish has been applied (like months after) - DAMHIKT :). Take it slow and trust that a wee bit of pumice will do the job and you should be fine.

Cross-contamination between different wood species is also an issue (as OP points out) so the "spit coat" is important.

Sorry for the repeated editing - I think of new things after saving.

When making your pad be sure to leave enough of a "tail" that you can grab onto it well. FP is a pretty fatiguing technique in general (relative to others I have used) and if you leave the tail too short you end up not being able to grab it very well and your hand will cramp. If your hands starts to get tired your technique starts to get sloppy, if your technique gets sloppy you are more likely to stop. If you stop .... well, see above for what happens there. I know it seems like a small thing but it really makes a difference.

I also tend to do my polishing with a "raking" light so I can see where I am, have been, and need to go. It also helps me see the "cloud" that follows the pad from the oil. BTW: The "cloud" is one of the indications that you have the technique and are in the zone (so to speak). It is also extremely satisfying to see. Know the feeling that you get when using a really sharp, well tuned hand plane on a piece of wood that really cooperates - well, watching the cloud following the pad is on par with (and maybe a bit better than) that feeling.

You also need to be changing your cover cloths fairly frequently so make a bunch up ahead of time.

[John Coloccia]

Ah... forgot about the figure 8's :)

Thanks for the heads up re: Homestead. I'll be sure to try them out the next time I need supplies. Personally, I have a box of "french polishing cloth", which looks like nothing more than a bunch of cut up t-shirts.

It really is funny how tolerant FP is to different ingredients, techniques, schedules, etc. About the only thing they all have in common is rubbing the finish into the previous layer....and rub, and rub and rub... LOL ...and rub...

[Rick Markham]

John and Larry, thanks for the info. I haven't heard of using the pumice up until this point. I had been allowing the pores and imperfections to gradually fill with polish, probably a substantially longer process. I will definitely check out homestead for supplies. I appreciate the resource.

I agree with using the indirect light to easily see where your at, the temptation in the beginning is to slop it on, when that is precisely the wrong thing to do, and it ends up taking longer in the long run.

For the filler in my "rubber" I have been using 100% cotton, cotton balls. I have been using the finishing towels they sell at the borg, which are super soft cotton tshirt material, it seems to work well for me. I load the cotton ball, then wrap the tshirt material around it, and blot it on a scrap piece of wood to get it flowing. It seems to help keep me from getting runs and streaks when I start applying. (I'm heavy handed and lead footed :D)

I've heard mixed opinions on when to change the outer layer of the "rubber" I've heard, when it is visibly dirty, when particulates have accumulated etc. It seems there is quite a variation on opinions on that one. I have the luxury of being able to remove the piece I'm working on to a "mostly" dust free location while it isn't being polished, so my pads seem to stay exceptionally clean. But towards the end once the finish becomes close to finished I change it religiously, I don't want anything to scratch the work I have already done.

I'm sure I will think of ten more things that I should have mentioned too.

Oh see here is one I forgot, about the oiling the pad or rubber, a little bit goes a long way, I haven't used olive oil but have dabbed my finger tip in camelia oil and spread it on the bottom of the "rubber" Its important as the process moves along to not forget that it's important, helps keep the temptation to stop the "rubber" mid stroke. Always gotta keep it movin!

[Terry Beadle]

I found that not all cloth material is equal for use as the outside of the pad. Used white socks seem to work best for me. T-shirt material is a little thin. Jeans or cordroy is too grainy. You need a soft-ish outside material.

Inner material can just about be anything but a thicker soft material that soaks up and is more sponge like seems best for me.

What do you recommend?

[Ron Petley]

Wonderful stuff, This is perfect for me, I am just about to try this whole thing. I have the stuff and will try a few practice goes to get the hang of it and then will try it out on a banjo I am working on.
Any words on what "cut" you like to use. I have mixed a 1lb cut for a first filler coat, but not sure this has enough shellac in it, I can always add more if you think it is needed.
I have some old cloth diapers that seem to be the right texture and cotton balls for the inside. I made one pad and tried it out on a wood bowl I got at a garage sale. It had a red stripe on it and of course it came off onto the the pad and turned it red, so that was the end of that, lesson learned with no harm, not to smart but a steep learning curve, Duh. Cheers Ron.

[John Coloccia]

Honestly, I almost always mix a 2lb cut if I'm measuring. From there, I control the actual cut by using alcohol on the fad, or mixing a little alcohol into my little dispenser.

The cut is really just not all that critical. In fact, I'll tell you a secret...I don't actually measure anything anymore. I put enough shellac flakes to make me happy, and then I fill up with alcohol until the alcohol is twice the height of the flakes. That's usually about right for me.

To make the shellac dissolve faster, I usually chop them up in a coffee grinder, but I do this AFTER I measure out if I'm eye balling it. The ground up shellac takes up a lot less volume than shellac flakes. If you're using ground shellac, you'll want a about 1/4 to be ground shellac flakes, and the rest is alcohol...APPROXIMATELY. That's just what works for me, my grinder and my eyeballs.

Anyhow, you'll develop a feel for this. There will be lots that disagree, but I feel that 90% of this finish is the technique of smoothly rubbing the new layer into the old layer. It's pretty insensitive to material, contaminants, dust, etc. To me, it's like making pasta dough. I know when it feels right. I don't measure that either.

[Larry Fox]

I am kinda with John in that my cut is approximately 2#. I do thin the earlier sessions (the term coat does not really apply in FP) but leave the later sessions at about 2#.

One thing about trying it on your banjo is to make sure you are really, really comfortable with the process before approaching your instrument with it. I am not concerned about the motion as much as the downward pressure. The later sessions require more pressure than the earlier ones and I imagine that it would be easy to focus more on making sure your FP technique was good and loose sight of the fact that you are pressing down pretty hard on a hollow-bodied instrument and you could break it. I believe they make mention of that in the article that I posted the link to.

The cover cloths they sell at Homestead are very clean and lint-free. They are much thinner than t-shirt material and so I find that I need less oil in the beginning. With T-shirt material it seems (to me anyway) that you need to use more oil in the beginning until it gets "burnished" and the fibers get mashed down. However, by that time it seems that it is time to change the cover.


John - question for you. I see in your original post that you have what looks to be a solid-body electric on the bench. Do you FP those as well? What do you do about finish on your fingerboards and necks? I am planning a solid-body build and the neck and fingerboard finish is something I have not worked out. I was considering just spraying it with nitro - frets and all- and stoning the frets after.

[Rick Markham]

Ron, an important aspect in choosing material for the outer layer of the "rubber" that has only lightly been touched on is 'lint free' Be careful whatever material you choose to use that it isn't old and "rotten" where the fibers are so worn that they come apart too easily, if you choose your favorite 'holy' t-shirt you might find yourself frustrated tying to sand away a whole lot of little t-shirt fibers off your banjo. Clean, lint free, and not worn out are the three most important aspects.

I'm gonna give the sock a try next time.

[John Coloccia]

John - question for you. I see in your original post that you have what looks to be a solid-body electric on the bench. Do you FP those as well? What do you do about finish on your fingerboards and necks? I am planning a solid-body build and the neck and fingerboard finish is something I have not worked out. I was considering just spraying it with nitro - frets and all- and stoning the frets after.

Ah yes. That's prototype #3 of an original design. Prototype #4 should nail it. It's a chambered solid body with a flat spruce top, with possibly an option for a carved top. The spruce lends itself very well to a FP. The body is alder and, well, let's just say FP really doesn't bring out the best in that wood. It's OK, but I really prefer the look of more traditional electric guitar finish on something like this. Even though the spruce looks very nice with a FP, a plain spruce top just doesn't really seem to fit the look of the instrument.

So the answer is I've experimented with FP on electrics, and while it works much as you'd expect, I don't think it's the ideal finish. It's not just aesthetics either. It's just much too fragile for how people treat electrics. I've experimented with traditional varnish also, like a violin finish, and have done sunbursts like that (not on an instrument...just on scrap). While it looks very nice, it just doesn't seem like it'd fit the instrument. I think it would do better on a mandolin or an archtop, but I've never built a mandolin and never tried it on an archtop.

The other thing to consider is that you really don't get much benefit from a FP on an electric. It's a solid piece of wood, after all. I believe a FP on an acoustic top does help it vibrate some. Some builders are doing FP on the top, and lacquer everywhere else, so that you get the toughness of the lacquer on the wear points, but at least have a FP on the top where it might make the most difference. This isn't uncommon for classical/flamenco guitars where you really need to squeeze the most out of the instrument. It's so lightly braced to begin with, it wouldn't take much to choke it off, in my opinion.

French polish works just dandy on the neck. Once it's cured and polished, the neck just feels AWESOME. My fretboards never get any finish at all. I mask it all off. The one on the bench has an ebony fretboard, and generally I prefer ebony, even for acoustics. If I were to use rosewood, the same applies, though. I sand to 600 grit, and then polish. A touch of oil just to preserve it a bit, but I'm not convinced that's even nescessary. The only time you really need to worry about it is with a maple fingerboard, a'la Fender, but I don't EVER do that. That's just my personal preference. There are plenty of builders that make wonderful Strats and Teles....just not me :) Prototype #4 may have a FP neck with a lacquer everything else. I've never tried that. We'll see how it goes.

I absolutely love Mcfadden's lacquer, but I don't use solvent based anymore. I really just don't have the facilities to spray it properly, and now that I want to spray year round, spraying outside is not an option. I'm fooling around with Target's waterborne lacquer, and I can tell you that it goes on beautifully and is tough like traditional lacquer when it's cured. It's a true lacquer finish, is non-explosive and is environmentally friendly. The only thing about the water based lacquer is it doesn't flash off quite as quickly as the solvent based stuff, so it takes a little longer to build up a finish. This doesn't matter to me.

Sometime before the end of the year I'll have some photos and samples of my offerings. You can see how the Target stuff is working out.

That's probably more info than you wanted to know :) Maybe George will weigh in on this. I believe he has vast amounts of experience with FP, varnish and traditional lacquers, and he might have some insight based on what he's tried and settled on over the years.

[Ron Petley]

Thanks for the tips. I have a garage sale bowl to practice on, it is a nice figured, had to buy it for $2 to give it a new home.
I have some flakes mixed up and will make a "rubber" and give it a go. This is a thin bowl so it should be a a good practice it is more fragile than my banjo and round.
The cloth I have is not worn out so I will start with it, it is not really thin like a T shirt.
I will start a new thread and post some photos as I go along.
Cheers Ron.