saw handle dry rott

[Robert Culver]

Wow I started cleaning up my handle for a d-8 cross cut saw I had picked up and it turned into a pretty frustarting prosses. The handle was covered with some sort of grease and it had been eating away at the finish. It took alot of scrapping with a card scraraper to get it back to good wood. But even then it was still a little out of wack so I hand sanded parts that were in need of more work after a bit I tought that maybe I should just take a couple fine swipes with a hand plane just to see it I could straighten it out a bit more. I desided not to do that because I didnt want to change it to much so I settled with a 400 grit smoothing with sand paper and it was nice a silky but even after 5 coats of oil and a coat of waz its just not as nice as some of the handles I have done I nothiced to that the wood is cosiderably lighter. Oh well thats life its still going to make a good user tool just a bit disapointed.Has anybody else had this problem?

[David Weaver]

Only on old beech saws. On old beech saws that are dry as a midwest popcorn fart, I just keep oiling them until I have them about like I'd want for grip. They're probably not coming back to what we'd like, but there is always the option of making another tote.

You could literally immerse the thing overnight in oil, starting with it warm and then take it out and put it in a box of sawdust the next day to get the excess oil out.

The old apple handles have all held up well, they're just covered with grime.

[Andrew Gibson]

last week I cleaned up 4 old saws I got. I took the handles off scrapped off the remaining shellac or lacer that was on them, and soaked them in BLO for about an hour.

I hade 3 beech handles and an apple. The apple handle didn't seem to be very thirsty but the beech handles were quite dry and now seem much happier after their soak. A couple of them could have soaked longer but the hour soak seem to have done them quite a bit of good.

[george wilson]

Soaking old beech with oil will do nothing for its strength. You'd be better off soaking beech in "Get Rot" or another of the thinned out epoxy based fluids for injecting into rotted woodwork around your house.

Many years ago in Williamsburg,two guys were playing around with a mid 19th.C. brass bound beechwood brace. One was pretending he was going to drill the other guy with the brace. There wasn't even a drill bit in the chuck. The other guy grabbed the BRASS CHUCK with his bare hand while the other was twisting it. The wood shattered around the brass chuck!! Just with the one hand gripping the brass at the chuck!!

There were no worm holes,or any other sign of cracks or damage on the brace before the accident. It was simply about to fall apart from being perished.

Beech wood logs will not stand being left on the ground well at all after being cut down. They will soon spalt. I think it is not a rot resistant wood at all.

I don't think anyone had ever used that brace. If they had drilled a 3/8" hole with it,the brace would have fallen apart.

I think that old beechwood that has gotten as bad as that brace was,has no chance of being a user. Thing is,you might not be able to tell how bad it is from looking at its surface.

P.S.: I actually saw this happen.

[Robert Culver]

well there is only one way to find out and that is to bolt her up and make some cuts I guess. If the handle explodes I will be makin a new one somehow I guess. The saw plate is in great shape better than the plate on the rip that had the outstanding handle. I guess that life with old tools and auctions though.

[Andrew Gibson]

You could take a tracing of the saw handle if it suits you. That way if it self distructs you have a starting point for making a new handle.

[Rick Markham]

Robert, I would do what Andrew suggests, while you have it off of the plate, take pictures and trace it. It really isn't terribly hard to make a replacement. I enjoyed making mine. Andrew, has made quite a few, and George is by far an expert. If you do a quick search on here you should find many threads about making saw handles. Give it a shot, if your disappointed by it now, make your own, then you will be happier with saw and it will really be yours ;)

[Robert Culver]

Good point I will be sure to make some kind of pattern first.

[Marv Werner]

Robert,

If your saw is a young saw, made in the 40,s, it could have been made from Beech, hence the light color. It was during that period of time when Disston was running out of Apple wood. Disston was approaching the time when they sold the company to H.K. Porter in 1955. By that time their saws were pretty ugly. They had been doing everything they could to cut manufacturing costs. The handsaw was no longer the only way to saw a board. The electric motorized saws were becoming the popular saw of choice for carpenters. If the screws and medallion on your saw are made of steel and not brass, then for sure it was made in the late 40,s or 50,s and the model number is D-8 instead of D8.

Sounds like it might be a good candidate for your first practice handle for your wheat carving. :)

Marv

[Robert Culver]

Im thinking it may be beech that may be the reason for its lightness it is considerably lighter than the other handle and not quite as red. I agree it may be a prime target for my first wheat try.

[Frank Drew]

I think beech handles wet conditions better than dry; almost every wood kitchen tool I've ever bought has been beech.

[george wilson]

Beech is cheap. That might be why your kitchen handles are beech. Is that your total reason you think beech handles moisture well? I think the whole reason beech was the most common tool wood is it's cheapness and availability. Beechwood trees don't even get too large,not much over about 18" or 20" in diameter because their hearts rot out,leaving holes over 8" in diameter in their centers. You dare not leave the logs on the ground very long. They soon spalt.

We cut 5000 bd. ft. of beech for toolmaking. It is also about the WORST wood for being unstable I've ever seen. 6" X6" beams twisted like cork screws while air drying. It was very difficult getting a straight 4" X 4" out of a 6X6 to make a cooper's jointer. It just kept twisting for about a year after we got it into the shop AFTER it had been drying several years. We'd plane it out straight. It warped again and again. We'd wait months and plane it again,etc.,etc..

Today you only find pallets made from it,and maybe some Scandinavian furniture.

There is nothing magic about beech.

[Robert Culver]

I will agree with that I cut down 15 beech trees a few years ago because the woodpeckers had drilled into them after horntails and they posed a great risk of falling on the house. It rots fast I think I only have 3 or 4 trees left among some big maples and oaks it wont be long and they will be gone to. I dont think it holds up to mosture well a all.:mad:

[george wilson]

I know it doesn't,having worked with beech from tree to finished tool.

[Dan Andrews]

I have seen people buy a truck load of beach logs for firewood. The centers were so rotted out that they probably got 1/2 the wood they paid for. A nice cherry handle for your saw Robert, makes sense to me. If the nuts are steel, I would use some old brass nuts all polished up for reassebly. Carve your wheat and you will have a saw to use and be proud of.

[Frank Drew]

Beechwood trees don't even get too large,not much over about 18" or 20" in diameter because their hearts rot out,leaving holes over 8" in diameter in their centers.

You need to get outdoors more; beech trees can be long lived and develop truly enormous trunks.

"Maine Tree Species Fact Sheet http://www.extension.umaine.edu/mainetreeclub/images/factsheets/Americ7.jpgCommon Name: American Beech
Botanical Name: Fagus grandifolia
Tree Type: Deciduous
Physical Description:

Height: The American beech is a slow to medium growing tree and reaches 50-70 feet in height, with a trunk diameter of 13 feet [emphasis added] and a spread usually less than or equal to height.





Today you only find pallets made from it,and maybe some Scandinavian furniture. Yeah, those Scandinavians, what do they know? :rolleyes: Of course, beech is also the preferred wood for work benches in Europe, and is commonly seen in carcases and furniture frames, so apparently some people know how to use it.


There is nothing magic about beech. On this we can agree; I've never been tempted to buy any. But the OP was asking about how prone beech seems to be to dry rot; I was surprised because I've never had a beech kitchen utensil degrade from wet rot (let alone fall apart in my hands) and that's after countless wet/dry cycles. I understand, of course, that that's not the same as considering beech a suitable wood for an exterior application.

[Robert Culver]

Frank while I don’t disagree with your technical information as I am sure it from a good source and I know it is a great material to use for benches. I have lived in the country all my life and have been splitting firewood since I was big enough to hold an axe. My personal experience has been that most trees of the age that your material speaks of while they may be still standing and live the have started to rot I have cut trees down that where the size stated as they were producing a risk to homes and I bet 99 percent of those trees were more than half rotted in there heartwood I see this allot in the trees in that age range. This is one of the reasons that beech can be dangerous to drop as you can’t see what is going on the inside of that trunk. Your saw will be sure to tell you that story by the speed that it cuts but by that time it may be to late. I would be willing to wager that most of the beeches you find in lumber mills in my area are young trees. Good quality old growth beech is getting harder and harder to find. Just my experience as a woodsman for about 30 years now. It seems to be suffering a similar fate to the American chestnut. It just don’t get the same press. I know beech kitchen tools hold up well and are wet alot but also remeber that you are giving that tool a very slight coat of waxes and oils everytime you use it. If you take one of those tools and just get it wet with water and let it dry mutipule times it will start to turn black this is the first stage of spalting and spalting in beech with lead to rott at a pretty fast pace if moisture is consistant.

[Marv Werner]

Not purposely trying to be a smartass here, but I'm trying to picture in my mind a 50 ft. tree with a 13 ft. diameter base that is approx. 1/3 it's height. I live on the west coast. I don't think they grow around here, so I've never seen a Beech tree. I could be wrong about that. I learned just a few days ago that I don't actually know everything. :D Are they shaped similar to a Maple tree or Oak tree? I'll do some googl'n.

Thanks,
Marv

[Robert Culver]

13 ft does sound out of the range here in NY but what do I know I guess I missed that most of the old grorth I have seen maxes out at about 3 ft. 50 foot is typical for the most part its alot like a maple in most ways the bark however is smooth and grey.Smooth being it wraps the whole tree and is not rough best I can explain I guess. Maybe 13 ft is a typo. maybe they are saying 13 ft if you measure around the whole trunk it still soulds a little on the large side but thats info from maine also Im sure there is still alot of really old growth there.

[Marv Werner]

Yeah, I can more easily picture a 50ft. tree with a base 13ft. in circumference.

[Robert Culver]

I would have to say though a beech tree is more simalar to a cherry tree in size a structure as maples and oaks tend to brach out sooner and more often.

[george wilson]

I am talking about beech trees in Virginia,Drew. Do you have personal experience logging and milling beechwood into lumber here in Virginia? I do.

[Frank Drew]

We had a beech tree in my backyard in New York when I was growing up that had at least a 5' diameter; not three miles from where I live now there's a stand of old, large beech trees with maybe 6-7 foot diameters -- the trees are really majestic old things.

I've never seen one with anything like a 13 foot diameter but I know the trees can get much taller than 50 feet, and I know they can live a long time in the right conditions.

Again, this is not my infomercial for beech trees; I have no financial connection to beech trees :D; just adding some information from my own experience, and noting the widespread use of the wood (their version) in Europe, where it's apparently not considered a total junk tree only suitable for pulp or pallets.

[george wilson]

I don't "get outdoors" in Maine,Frank. I live here. Your assertion that beech stands wet better than dry is just plain wrong. How many ships have you heard of being made of beech?

I can see from your post that you apparently have nothing better to do than sit up all hours of the night to prove your point about beech that grows elsewhere. Here where I live,it grows as I have stated. 2' dia. and it's got an 8" rotted hole in the heart. Leave it on the ground much,it's spalted.

As for getting out doors, we spent 3 freezing weeks in Feb.cutting beech for our shop with a guy who had a portable sawmill.

European beech isn't quite the same as American anyway,but that's another discussion. In OLD CHEAP furniture from England,I have seen beech used. It was cheap.

P.S.:here in Williamsburg,I was obligated to use beech that the locals had in the 18th.C.. They imported exotic woods like mahogany,but not cheap stuff like beech.

[Robert Culver]

Are you talking daimiter or circumference a 5 ft diamiter tree would be pretty large? I dont think I have ever seen one that large here in NY. I have cut alot of beech with a 24" bar never needed any thing larger you would need a pretty big saw to cut a 5ft Diamiter.

[george wilson]

Since few put their location on this forum,always a source of consternation,should be required, it isn't possible to know where his large beeches are growing. Here in tidewater,Va.,they don't get bigger than about 2'. Maybe in mountains,or cooler climates,etc., they do better.

[Frank Drew]

I can see from your post that you apparently have nothing better to do than sit up all hours of the night to prove your point about beech that grows elsewhere. Here where I live,it grows as I have stated. 2' dia. and it's got an 8" rotted hole in the heart.


George, now you're just being silly, and that kind of (wrongheaded) personal remark in response to being contradicted is exactly the kind of thing that would get you all up in arms if it was directed at you; if you really need an explanation for the time stamps on my posting, I was up late last night because I didn't get home from work until around midnight. Sheesh!

And in fact you didn't state that you've never personally seen a beech tree as wide as I've cited, you stated quite categorically that they didn't grow more than 18-20".

Robert, diameter, across the width; my arms aren't big enough to guesstimate the circumference. (Okay, okay, I could have done the math!)

[george wilson]

They don't around here. So sue me. You made a few personal remarks too,like I need to get out more. What's with that? Do you have personal information on how often I get out? Why don't you guys give at least a decent location? You could at least give a general area,like mountains,or something. Since trees have a tendency to grow differently in different locations,it would help.

I am on other forums where location is required,and I think it should be here. Guys come on and ask questions,giving NO idea where in the whole World they are. Many times that info would help.

There are MANY sub species of oak growing around here. Maybe all beech isn't the same. I'm not a botanist. I just make things out of wood,metal,and other materials.

[Marv Werner]

Robert,

This thread is becoming one "beech" of a discussion.... :D

Circumference is a little more than 3 times the diameter. You can use that as a general rule to figure one versus the other. If I recall, it's 3.14 times the diameter. Any mathematicians in here?

Around here in Northern California, most of our oak trees are rotten in the middle. Perhaps it's due to a lack of water to sustain the tree as it gets bigger. There is only so much water source in any given area. The tree reduces it's mass inside so the outside can continue to grow. It's astounding how much water one tree will use per day. I don't remember the numbers, all I remember is, I was astounded when I read it.

Marv

[Robert Culver]

Marv. Im no math major either but I am pretty sure you are pretty darn close on your figuren. When us hillbillys figure things round here we use the simple p= formula

P= Plenty

Make sure you got enof.

Yuk Yuk

Rob

[george wilson]

I've had enough of this debate. Personally,I'm concerned with what I can make out of wood,rather than its botany. I enjoy trees,but only know about what grows in my area. And I still know darned well that it doesn't last long if kept wet.

If someone could give me real proof that ships were made from beech,I might change my mind.:)

I'm not sure what the"What do the Scandinavians know?" remark is supposed to mean. Yes,they make furniture from beech. I have a $3000.00 Ecorn recliner made in Norway. However IT AIN'T OUTDOOR FURNITURE.

[David Weaver]

Back to the saw handle. I agree that I don't like it when it's old and it's not cared for. It's weak and reminds me of driftwood once it's had a chance to age without protection, and it makes for saw totes that you can oil hard, but they're never going to be like new.

I have a few that dried out, that I've oiled the crap out of. As george states, the outside of them is weak, the wood has no toughness at the surface. They still look OK, but they'll never look as good as a piece of fresh beech.

It isn't hard to find old planes in this condition, either.

I would MUCH rather have a tote made of fruitwood than beech, but you don't get the choice if you buy really old saws and they're not premium saws.

As far as new beech, I have yet to find a sawmill or lumber dealer who describes it as scarce, and I see tons of videos on youtube of people cutting up huge diameter trunks of beech to test their chainsaws, or to show videos of themselves making firewood, especially in ohio. What the lumber dealers do describe it as is worthless, a utility wood - including the guy at hearne. I asked him if he has any requests for quartersawn beech, and he didn't really commit to a "yes", in fact i think he went on to give me advice on something else after explaining that the market for beech was ruined in general when there was a bunch dumped from germany umpteen years ago. I think it's purely an issue of demand - what demand is there for a bunch of poorly behaved (when drying) utility grade hardwood when a couple people here or there might pay 10 bucks a bd foot for it quartersawn. Compare that to demand from cabinet shops for well behaved hardwoods.

I'd love to be able to find it cheap to make planes, but I haven't been able to, but not because it's scarce - because nobody really wants to pay anything for it in quantity.

That's my opinion, and what I've heard. If you ask old-timers around where I live about beech, they say "burns well!".

[george wilson]

David,when I first became toolmaker,before we made arrangements to go cut 5000 bd. ft. ourselves,we got some hunks of firewood from a friend's firewood pile and started drying it. At the time I was still figuring out how we could economically cut the throats out for the large number of planes we were to make. It would at least give us something to experiment on.

That's the only place we could find any-in the firewood pile.

[Robert Culver]

I hope I wasnt misnderstood when I compared it to chestnut. It is plentiful but finding it in good quality old growth is hard to find. I have been told this by people that make tools the beech is still there its just not as good as it was in the past. In my experiance trees here in ny start to rot in the centers early on. Anyway the saw handle..... I wipped out a pattern of the old then I wipped out a modified pattern that will keep the saw plate in the same place but with any luck change the angle of the way the saw is held by a deg. or two. to experament a bit I still havent figured out how to take care of the main curved cut but I got a couple of ideas from the other thread Im just not sure which to try first. Im working on like 3 other projects at the time so once I wrap all these up I going to have to take a crack at this.