New Cabinet Saw

[Paul Tinsen]

I will be purchasing a new cabinet saw. I am looking at The Powermatic 2000, the Delta Unisaw and the Sawstop (since I work alone most of the time). I would like some opinions on these saws. This will be the main saw in the shop and used extensively. Is the Sawstop on the same level as the other two. Sorry I know this topic is covered quite a bit but it is quicker than going through all the oldposts! Thanks in advance for the input.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I can only comment on the SawStop - as I have the ICS. It is a good saw… but you’ll have to decide if the added safety is worth the price.

I’ve never regretted my purchase and I’d make it again.

[mreza Salav]

Some people don't care about the brake, to some other it's a very important featuer. Aside from the safety, Sawstops are very well designed and well built (the packaging, the manuals, etc are the best out there, customer service too if you ever need it).

I have not seen anybody who regrets purchasing it but have seen quite many who wish they had it (after an accident happened to them).

To **me** it's the obvious choice.

[Rod Sheridan]

Paul, if you're looking at cabinet saws, I'd add the General 650, made in Canada.

That said, I would never buy another cabinet saw, however if I did the SS is the machine simply due to the safety improvement.

Every test indicates that it cuts wood as well as the other saws, however the safety feature sets it apart.

Regards, Rod.

[Thomas L. Miller]

Paul,
I have the Sawstop ICS. I tried the new Unisaw and thought the SawStop was "more saw". The brake was the feature which helped persuade my wife. I too work alone and was upgrading from a contractor's table saw.

[Nathan Allen]

If safety is the issue and not cost go for the SawStop.

Namebrand is important go for the PM, Delta, or Jet

If Fit/Finish and cost are important you could save some money by looking at Steel City or General

And if cost is really the issue you can look at Grizzly

All of the major manufacturers will deliver a highly adjustable product with adequate hp, but it comes down to Money, Safety, and Name Recognition

[Paul Tinsen]

My biggest concern with the SS was the accuracy and repeatability of the saw and the quality of the fence system.

[Paul McGaha]

Hi Paul,

I have a Unisaw with a 52" Biesmeyer thats about (7) years old. It's been fine. No problems or complaints.

If I was buying a saw today I think I would first look at a PM-2000. I've seen several very positve threads about them here at the creek plus I've seen one up close at my local Woodcraft store.

Good Luck with it.

PHM

[Will Overton]

I have a SS PCS. My last saw had a Biesmeyer fence. I find the SS fence to be on that level. Except for the SS having an extra adjustment and easily replaceable sides, the two are pretty much the same.

[Ashwini Kaul]

If I was buying a saw today I think I would first look at a PM-2000. I've seen several very positve threads about them here at the creek plus I've seen one up close at my local Woodcraft store.

PHM

And its on sale currently!
But so is the Delta... but its still $600 or so more for comparative specs.
For $2400 shipped... it is a very appealing deal to me. It would cost at least $1200 more to get that brake :)
For me... the color is not bad either.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I have a SS ICS 5 hp. Yes, it is a little different than a PCS, but that saw is a lot of saw. The brake is a bonus. The fence great, not the best out there, but I use the fence tape and not my tape rule. Don't need to measure with a ruler anymore.
IMO, the brake is the second best safety feature, the riving knife/blade guard being the best safety feature. All the new top line saws have good riving knife/guards. That is what I would look for. I hope to never use the brake.
SS worth the money? I think so. It is definetely a lot of saw. And I personally know 3 people that have less than 10 fingers. That is what tossed me over the cost factor in the first place. Yes, I would buy another SS. Probably not an ICS, since that is more saw than I need.

Good luck in your decision.

[Rod Sheridan]

If safety is the issue and not cost go for the SawStop.

Namebrand is important go for the PM, Delta, or Jet

If Fit/Finish and cost are important you could save some money by looking at Steel City or General

And if cost is really the issue you can look at Grizzly

All of the major manufacturers will deliver a highly adjustable product with adequate hp, but it comes down to Money, Safety, and Name Recognition

Hi Nathan, I'm guessing that General is going to be more expensive than all except for the SS machine. Fit/finish/performance is extremely high, as is cost since it's made in Canada.

Regards, Rod.

[george wilson]

I will remind that the Saw Stop will only use 10" blades,and only an 8" dado set. I have some special blades like my 6" guitar fret blade that cuts a .020" kerf,and some others I've made up. The Saw Stop won't accept any blades that don't meet its requirements even when the brake is turned off.

We had to buy an 8" dado set when we bought a Saw Stop for my former toolmaker's shop in Colonial Williamsburg. For some reason,Forrest blades are 1/16" short of 10",so you have to re adjust the brake sensor when putting one on.

I am waiting for a less fussy saw to come on the market. Meanwhile,I'll stay with my 10" Dewalt/Clausing table saw I bought new in 1964. I'll probably never let it go anyway.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I gave up a General 350 & bought PCS SawStop. If you look at the price differance between the saws you mention they are closely the same. A new General & not the General International is the same price as the new SS. I've had two accidents on the table saw & still have all my fingers. I didn't another mishap so I went with the PCS. Great saw.

[Joe Leigh]

Before this turns into another SawStop lovefest, let me put another vote in for the PM2000. More saw for far less money than either the SS PCS or the new Unisaw, and I went over all three with a fine tooth comb.
Just one man's opinion. You really can't go wrong with anyone of these three choices.

[Lance Norris]

Just to add some confusion, I'd consider the cabinet saws from Jet and Grizzly as well. Fine saws from both.

[Chris Padilla]

I will remind that the Saw Stop will only use 10" blades,and only an 8" dado set. I have some special blades like my 6" guitar fret blade that cuts a .020" kerf,and some others I've made up. The Saw Stop won't accept any blades that don't meet its requirements even when the brake is turned off.

We had to buy an 8" dado set when we bought a Saw Stop for my former toolmaker's shop in Colonial Williamsburg. For some reason,Forrest blades are 1/16" short of 10",so you have to re adjust the brake sensor when putting one on.

I am waiting for a less fussy saw to come on the market. Meanwhile,I'll stay with my 10" Dewalt/Clausing table saw I bought new in 1964. I'll probably never let it go anyway.

I'm glad you found a point where SS might not rule so well. I've often thought that my next TS would be a SS but these points do give me a slight pause in that thought....

[John P Clark]

I would also look at the Hammer line - on sale in the same price point but with a sliding table, made in Europe, great saw – just have to wait to get it. I just received the K3 – Winner 79x48 and it is a great saw, which can do a lot more than the unisaw it replaced. Just my two cents worth

[Paul Tinsen]

I will remind that the Saw Stop will only use 10" blades,and only an 8" dado set. I have some special blades like my 6" guitar fret blade that cuts a .020" kerf,and some others I've made up. The Saw Stop won't accept any blades that don't meet its requirements even when the brake is turned off.

We had to buy an 8" dado set when we bought a Saw Stop for my former toolmaker's shop in Colonial Williamsburg. For some reason,Forrest blades are 1/16" short of 10",so you have to re adjust the brake sensor when putting one on.

I am waiting for a less fussy saw to come on the market. Meanwhile,I'll stay with my 10" Dewalt/Clausing table saw I bought new in 1964. I'll probably never let it go anyway.


George
Is this a one time adjustment or do you need to readjust for a standard 10" once finished with the Forrest? I use a Forrest along with other manufacturers blades.

[Rod Sheridan]

I would also look at the Hammer line - on sale in the same price point but with a sliding table, made in Europe, great saw – just have to wait to get it. I just received the K3 – Winner 79x48 and it is a great saw, which can do a lot more than the unisaw it replaced. Just my two cents worth

No arguments here John, I replaced a General 650 with a B3 Winner saw/shaper combo.

They're in a completely different league...........Rod.

[greg a bender]

I looked very closely at all, Jet, Griz, SS, PM and Uni. I had an unlimited budget:cool:. I bought the Uni. I'm quite thrilled with it. Dead on out of the crate, tables dead flat, excellent guard, splitter and knife. This was the saw I always wanted.
In the end, all are excellent saws. At this price point, only your personal opinion really matters. (woodworkers supply has the Uni on sale, btw)

Greg

[Carl Babel]

I have a SS ICS. Bought it for the brake - I have a young son who is interested in woodworking and will very likely use it some day. The quality and fit and finish were a surprise to me, I think it is every bit as good as the other high end American saws (I have used Deltas and PM, but never European). If I bought today, it would probably be the SS PCS.

[johnny means]

i have a SS ICS and love it. IMO the SSs are the better saws without the brake and the brake is just a low price, lifetime insurance policy.

Sawstops have the best dust collection of the bunch, quick release locking ZCIs, easiest to manage riving knives and guards, and the fit and finish is second to none.

I cant see any drawbacks to the SS, unless price is an issue.

[Anthony Albano]

I have the PM 2000; very happy with it.

[Ben Martin]

Look for a used saw, no way I would shell out $2k for a new one when you can get a used one for $250-1000.

....Ohh, and I vote Unisaw...

[Dave MacArthur]

I have a Powermatic 66, and recently bought a SawStop ICS. I loved the PM66. However, the SawStop as a saw has better fit and finish, some design elements are better (motor cover UNDER the right wing/table instead of sticking out the left side!), both gear handles are in the front of the saw and easier to turn/adjust than the Powermatic, and overall it's a great saw. If I had to choose between keeping the PM66 and the SawStop I'd take the SawStop, even if it didn't have the safety brake.

The SawStop riving knife and dust collection are just superior (neither on the PM66 to speak of).

As far as names go, in my opinion SawStop is the superior "name brand" over Powermatic and Unisaw both right now. I would guess that over 80% of all articles and posts I read on the subject of these saws ends up rating the basic fit/finish/quality of the SawStop above PM2000 or Unisaw. Recently there's been some good hype going around about the new Unisaw, it's true.
I was/am a huge PM66 fan, but just had a SS fall in my lap for a good price, wasn't even looking for one. Now that I have it, I do like it... I suppose I'm going to have to sell the PM66.

Truthfully you can't go wrong with any of these saws, but the OP asked "is the Sawstop on the same level as these other two?" and I'd have to say it is without a doubt, and above if the safety brake feature is important to you.

Goodluck!

[Matt Kestenbaum]

George
Is this a one time adjustment or do you need to readjust for a standard 10" once finished with the Forrest? I use a Forrest along with other manufacturers blades.

The gap between the brake and the blade needs to be dialed in when changing blades...this takes all of about 12 seconds. I have found variation of a few 32nds of an inch across all my blades... I imagine after some are sharpened a few times this discrepancy may grow. Still no big deal.

I LOVE my SS PCS...it's not any more expensive than the latest Unisaw (or at least it wasn't a year ago) and it has surpassed every expectation for fit and finish. Customer service has been the best of those I've had cause to contact. My God! It was worth a few extra bucks for the sheer thrill of seeing how smartly its packaged, the way the manual is written, and ease of assembly. Search around there are lots of threads here on SMC that illustrate what I am talking about.

[Van Huskey]

Before this turns into another SawStop lovefest, let me put another vote in for the PM2000. More saw for far less money than either the SS PCS or the new Unisaw, and I went over all three with a fine tooth comb.
Just one man's opinion. You really can't go wrong with anyone of these three choices.


I voted with my wallet as well, PM2000 for me. The SS ICS is the best 10" cabinet saw but significantly more money and only a tiny bit better than the PM. Even if money was equal between the Uni/PM2000/PCS I would pick the PM.

[bill bruno]

Hi Paul,

I vote for the SS. I have the SS – ICS. The SS, to me, is the best built, has superior customer service and the brake is a bonus. Just an additional thought: when I attempted to sell my non-SS table saw, I could not even give it away to any woodworking school in the state. They will only purchase SS.

[Neal Clayton]

to establish my bias, i use an ancient PM66 and don't have 3ph power, so am limited to 220.

with that said, out of all of the new saws that you commonly see, if i were buying one, i'd take a hard look at the 12" 5hp 220v grizzly. a 12" single blade or 10" dado would make a whole lot more difference to me than a brand name. sight unseen, if i had to buy a new saw today, that's probably what i'd wind up with. larger blades make a whole list of things possible that are not with smaller blades.

[Joe Leigh]

Hi Paul,

I vote for the SS. I have the SS – ICS. The SS, to me, is the best built, has superior customer service and the brake is a bonus. Just an additional thought: when I attempted to sell my non-SS table saw, I could not even give it away to any woodworking school in the state. They will only purchase SS.

To be fair, the brake might be viewed as a "bonus", but it's a $1000 bonus over the PM2000. As for the schools not purchasing anything other than SawStop, that's more about perceived safety than it is about quality.

[Tom Godley]

The amount of money you want to spend will really determine the saw. I am not a huge user of the table saw --- but I wanted a regular powerful cabinet saw for the few times I use one. I went with the PM2000. At the time the SS was at least 5k and I was able to get the Powermatic for around $2300.00 on Amazon. The PM is a very nice saw - great way to go if you want a new unit - quiet, nice fence, lots of power, good dust collection. Having used a ICS SS on numerous occasions I feel the quality of the PM and the SS are about the same.

I was very impressed with the quality of the Grizzly unit I looked at last week -- not quite to the level of the PM -- but it was 1/2 the price and looked to be equal as far as functionality -- liked the fence on the PM better.

Everyone has different styles of work. If I was a woodworker whose methods revolved around using the table saw for most of my projects I would have purchased a sliding table saw -- IMO they are the safest way to go on multiple levels. But I have the space. If it was going to be used constantly and I only had room for a table saw the SS would be a compelling purchase.

[Prashun Patel]

I have the SS PCS. I do like my saw, but the shine has worn off a little:

1) If you want to dado, you have to change the brake and you have to use an 8" stack. When you change the brake, you have to doublecheck the distance to the blade so's not to cause a misfire, but to be close enough to fire accurately. This is the kind of thing I want to do once - not when I'm rushed bkz I'm already annoyed at the time it takes to swap out a dado stack and adjust the shims, etc. My sol'n is to do dado's with the router - or to avoid them.

2) I'm not so keen on the dust collection. I've tried a couple of configurations, and can't get it to work as well as the last saw I had. Others may beg to differ, so take this as one data point.

What I DO like about the fit / finish of my saw is the ease of changing the guard and riving knife (toolless). The fence is fine and accurate. The manual is amazing - which really helps to tune it properly.

If comparing it to the Uni or the PM, I believe feature wise you might be about even. If comparing it to a cheaper saw, I believe you might be able to close the gap in any quality/safety diffs by purchasing aftermarket guards, etc.

If yr deciding between th

[David Helm]

I hate to be an old stick in the mud; but safety isn't the brake. Safety is the attention of the USER! If you don't have safe practices, you probably shouldn't be using a table saw.

[Joe Leigh]

I hate to be an old stick in the mud; but safety isn't the brake. Safety is the attention of the USER! If you don't have safe practices, you probably shouldn't be using a table saw.

Hence the word "perceived".

[Neil Brooks]

I'm not in a rush to get a cabinet saw, but ... it's on the short list of wants.

And -- like the OP, and so many others -- I'm looking at all the same issues, and the same contenders.

I'd love to hate the SS, but can't. Period. Seems like a darned good saw.

It's probably NOT my front runner (tends to vacillate between the Delta and the PM2000), but ... nothing I've heard, read, or seen about it EVER drops it from contention.

Much of the decision CAN be based on the "what kind of person are you" generality. As I'm fond of saying, I'm pretty geared up, with safety stuff, when I road bike, mountain bike, and ride my dual-sport motorcycle.

I put ALL the burden of safety on ME, in an "active" sense, but take pretty good advantage of many of the "passive" safety devices out there.

Because ... they're out there.

If the SS were even a NOTCH worse, in overall performance, than the others, it wouldn't be on the short list.

But ... sadly ... it doesn't seem to BE a notch worse, on most fronts.

[Ashwini Kaul]

Can someone comment on their dust collection experience on the PM 2000 - both above and below the table?
I have been looking at the same contenders, and was close to getting the new 1023 Grizzly, but its backordered. With the current sales on the PM and Delta - the PM 2000 looks very tempting.

[Paul McGaha]

Ashwini,

You sound to me like you are very close, just about there.

PHM

[Joe Leigh]

Can someone comment on their dust collection experience on the PM 2000 - both above and below the table?


I'm very impressed with the dust collection on my PM2000. With the blade guard in place I get little to no visible dust when ripping, and I run a modest 650CFM collector with a zero clearance insert full time. The lower cabinet does collect some dust that the shroud misses but it's a very small amount and is contained within the cabinet. Simple enough to open the hinged motor access door periodically and vacuum it out once a month or so.
Above the table with the blade guard removed you will get some dust thrown back at the operator but that's the same on any saw. You can minimize this by paying attention to blade height, or do like many here do and install above blade dust collection.

[Ashwini Kaul]

Ashwini,

You sound to me like you are very close, just about there.

PHM

:)

Paul... you Sir are very perceptive!
I am very close to pulling the trigger and am debating the extra $600 for the Unisaw? I am leaning towards the PM regardless.

[Paul McGaha]

Ashwini,

Of the (3) manufactures that Paul Tinsen started this thread with, and the other suggestions, I really dont think there are any bad choices.

I suppose it comes down to your personal preferences.

Good luck with it.

PHM

[Tom Godley]

I find the dust collection to be very good - especially since mine is not connected to anything very powerful. The SS I have used is connected to a large system with similar results.

I have no experience with the new Delta -- other then the reviews.

[greg a bender]

So far, I've found the dust collection on the new Uni very good. They do recommend at least a 1200 cfm DC. I'm using a HF 2hp with a cartridge filter and trash can cyclone. With the standard guard and throat plate, no dust in the face!

[johnny means]

I hate to be an old stick in the mud; but safety isn't the brake. Safety is the attention of the USER! If you don't have safe practices, you probably shouldn't be using a table saw.

Yeah, because only stupid, drunk, innattentive donkeys get hurt:rolleyes:.

[Paul Tinsen]

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the info. Sorry I took so long to reply. I went with the Delta Unisaw. I needed to buy some other tools as well so saving the grand over the SS helped. Plus it was on sale with a free mobile base. Just couldn't pass up the deal. I would have liked to look at the PM but no one in my area carried it in stock and with this sort of purchase I need to see and feel the product. I am very satisfied with the Unisaw. As a side note, I love this forum, so much knowledge and insight and it always seems to come very quickly. Thanks again I am sure I will have many more questions!

[Joe Jensen]

My biggest concern with the SS was the accuracy and repeatability of the saw and the quality of the fence system.

I owned a 1970s Uni from 1986-1990, nice saw. I had a Biesemeyer fence and loved it.

Then I "upgraded" to a new 1990 PM66 with a Bies fence. Loved it more than the Uni. Really liked the left tilt for cutting angles on sheet goods, which I did a fair bit of back then.

In 2006 my wife and I stopped at a WW store that had the Sawstop ICS with the top removed so you could see the trunions and interior. I found it to be very impressive and a clear step up from the Uni and PM66. While there my wife saw a video of the SawStop ICS and she insisted I get one. We actually ordered it on the spot. IMHO the Sawstop is a superior saw to the other cabinet saws (not considering the brake). It's very well designed, fit and finish in line with the Felder sliding saw I have now. But, it's a lot more money. I have a thing for nice tools and honestly, without a brake I may well have upgraded from the PM66 to the Sawstop ICS. With the brake, for me the choice was clear.

The store where I bought is the largest WW machinery store in AZ, lots of consignment, Delta full line, PM full line, and lots of commercial machines. they claim to sell SawStops 5 times more Sawstops than all the rest combined. When I bought I had some concerns about brake availability over time so I bought an extra brake. Now with so many being sold I wouldnt' really worry about the brakes. If Sawstop failed, someone would buy the rights to make and sell replacement brake cartridges.

Also, I love the Biesemeyer fences. The ICS clone is slightly nicer than the Bies, and if I were ordering a Sawstop ICS today I'd get their fence. If you don't like the Bies style, then you wouldn't like the Sawstop fence.

Having said all that, my comments are about the ICS. I have no experience with the other models.

[Tom Cornish]

Most of the time I'm a safety conscious careful person. Most of the time my concentration is adequate for the tasks I'm performing. Nearly always, in fact.

I bought the Sawstop ICS for that one time in a thousand where one of the above characteristics is momentarily not true.

I've had it for about a year and haven't fired the brake yet. I hope and expect to use the saw for many years without ever needing the brake, but I'm glad it's there, both for my sake, and my kids'.

The SawStop doesn't replace any general table saw safety practices, but does buffer the human element enough in my opinion to justify the extra cost.

+1 to other comments that the SawStop is equal or better in quality to the other similar quality machines.

[Bill Blackburn]

I'd be tickled pink with any of the mentioned saws - and that includes the General which in many areas doesn't get to much ink.
I wonder how many $$$ the schools are essentially forced to "take" from me to avoid potential lawsuits by not having the SS inside due to it being available. They are great saws but even greater at marketing the liability aspect of things. At least in my eyes ... personal .02
3 of my kids teach in elementary education. 2 of them today are smack dab in the middle of lawsuits against the school district(s) for NOT providing the "latest and greatest" for 2 respective students. One is visually impaired to point he cannot see 1 foot in front of him, the other has a feeding tube and wears diapers but they insist on main streaming both. I understand parts of it - but the cost is more than $200K in one case and well beyond that in the other. Tough decisions but we spend this much here and there on Students X and Y - we have nothing left for the 99% left.
I'm ranting - but at what point are lines drawn and costs vs benefit drawn? After all, the costs incured are everyones and they are huge if all "wants and needs" are met. Sorry ---- back to the saws.

I would like one of each please. :D

[Brad Gobble]

Hence the word "perceived".

SS PCS owner here ...

SS is not more safe - you have all of the same risks with any other big saw. However, in traditional risk management parlance, (Frequency x Impact / Control Effectiveness) the impact is dramatically reduced to a blade and a catridge should the worst happen. Now I don't want to spend $200 if I don't have to, but I'd gladly cough it up to avoid losing a finger.

So if mitigating that risk is worth $1000 to ya, do it. If not, that's OK too.

As far as being a great saw: I am very pleased.

[BOB OLINGER]

I hate to be an old stick in the mud; but safety isn't the brake. Safety is the attention of the USER! If you don't have safe practices, you probably shouldn't be using a table saw.

Yes, you should have safe practices in using a table saw. However, and in all due respect to this statement, accidents happen because they are accidents. I nicked my thumb on my table saw blade and was using a push stick; first such accident in 40+ years; a split second lapse of concentration can result in serious injury. I will be purchasing a Saw Stop later this month as a result. While safety won't be entirely in the brake, it will be there in the case of an accident. FYI, my wife TOTALLY supports this purchase, which I'm very thankful.

[Rick Prosser]

Originally Posted by David Helm http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1524982#post1524982)
I hate to be an old stick in the mud; but safety isn't the brake. Safety is the attention of the USER! If you don't have safe practices, you probably shouldn't be using a table saw.
Agreed - the brake is insurance. Insurance for when/if safety practices fail (for whatever reason).

[John Sanford]

SawStops are being purchased by more than just schools. Here, every major resort has a cabinet shop for the maintenance staff. One of them went with the SawStop about 4 months ago. Sucker went BAM two weeks ago. The user would have lopped off his right thumb tip.

The savings in workmen's comp from that one incident paid for the saw. Yes, he wasn't paying full attention. I don't know whether he lined up on the workpiece slightly off initially, or if he shifted his hand placement during the cut, but either way, his right thumb was about 1/2-3/4" across the cutline.

Yes, real humans use tools. Only robots, and the occasional superhuman helmsman always, 100% of the time, have safe practices. For the rest of us, there's handrails on stairs, GFCIs, smoke detectors, seat belts, life vests, motorcycle helmets, hardhats, breakaway ski bindings, and backup parachutes, for when either we aren't paying full attention or "stuff happens".

If I were in the market today for a new American style cabinet saw, I'd go with the SawStop. Without the brake technology, the Unisaw.

Btw, remember that the fence can always be swapped out, which means you can go with the cheapest fence available on the saw and then put on the one your really want (or already have) if it's not a factory option.