"Critique Requested" Revival

[William Hutchinson]

Seeking knowledgeable assessments of ones creative work is an appreciated exchange of this forum. Comments of positive and negative qualities that are astute and detailed with specific explanation are especially valued. In the master sticky section there is a wonderful document of “rules” for critiques. It's important to emphasize that critiques are directed towards the work without criticism of the individual.

We have some outstandingly talented individuals here whom are so kind to offer brief appraisals that are golden nuggets for aspiring turners. I’m beginning to discover that quite often it is the subtlest of details that can greatly enhance a work. With a lively critique process we all can benefit. A 'master' learns too by teaching and developing abilities to communicate nebulous concepts and tooling skills.

The sticky is worth a look if you haven’t seen it and a revisit if it’s been awhile. I for one would like to begin to use “Critique Requested” in the subject line that clearly opens the formal assessment process. My feeling is that the 'C&C' mention tagged to the end of a post are used for cursory acknowledgments and scant reviews.

[Ken Hill]

I think you did a good job overall. The only thing I would have changed was to use a different adverb in place of "outstandingly"

[David E Keller]

I agree with the value of criticism in developing as a turner. One reason that I've chosen not to use the formal criticism process is that I'm afraid it would cause some to avoid replying to posts. I greatly appreciate and value the opinions of all turners, from student to master. When I type 'comments and criticism appreciated', I truly mean just that. I only wish that more people would post their opinions of the pieces that are posted. I also read the critiques of the work of others which is a great source of knowledge and inspiration. Ultimately, I turn for myself, but this forum and its members have helped me develop my style and ability.

[Roger Chandler]

I agree with the value of criticism in developing as a turner. One reason that I've chosen not to use the formal criticism process is that I'm afraid it would cause some to avoid replying to posts. I greatly appreciate and value the opinions of all turners, from student to master. When I type 'comments and criticism appreciated', I truly mean just that. I only wish that more people would post their opinions of the pieces that are posted. I also read the critiques of the work of others which is a great source of knowledge and inspiration. Ultimately, I turn for myself, but this forum and its members have helped me develop my style and ability.


Ditto what David said!

[Al Wasser]

I've found that constructive criticism is essentially lacking in this board. Basically a person posts a picture which is then followed by umpteen "attaboys". The practice is so prevalent that I rarely look past the original post. Sometimes the photo limits seeing all the detail needed to really analyze the piece but not always. I would really like to see more coaching on the board.

[Roger Chandler]

I've found that constructive criticism is essentially lacking in this board. Basically a person posts a picture which is then followed by umpteen "attaboys". The practice is so prevalent that I rarely look past the original post. Sometimes the photo limits seeing all the detail needed to really analyze the piece but not always. I would really like to see more coaching on the board.


Al,

You have a point about the "umpteen attaboys," and constructive criticism will help all of us to grow for sure, but tastes in form and finish are subjective.

To some turners, if it is not paper thin, then nothing is nice to them. To some, if a bowl has a foot, then it never is pleasing to them, while others, like myself like a foot on a bowl. To some, an ultra small opening and neck on a hollow form is the only good one, but to others they like more symmetry in the form, so as to give it a bigger neck or opening.

My only point is that we all must remember that we can grow and constructive criticism is helpful, but we must not loose sight of the fact that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

[Ken Fitzgerald]

That "Sticky" and idea was developed for a couple of reasons.

1. Obviously to allow turners to ask for constructive criticism.

2. To prevent unwanted criticisms and critiques from causing budding turners to give up the craft while they are early in the learning process.

At the time the process was developed everybody got critiqued without asking and some people were a little aggressive with little finesse or tact.

It is still in effect today. You see John Keeton, Mark Cothren, and others ask for critiques with nearly every one of their postings.

The request should to be in the subject line.

I reRead the sticky......and corrected my mistake:o......about critiques located in the Master Sticky in Turners Forum.

[Frank Van Atta]

. . .
The request doesn't have to be in the Title....it can be in the body of the posting....near the bottom is the usual place.

Read the sticky....

From the "Critique Documents Sticky" - When you submit a project for critique enter the words "Critique Requested" in the subject line. Only those posts containing this identifier will fall under this program. This identifier will indicate that you know and understand the parameters of this process and give the Mentors the liberty to openly and honestly critique your project.

:(

[Frank Van Atta]

I've found that constructive criticism is essentially lacking in this board. Basically a person posts a picture which is then followed by umpteen "attaboys". The practice is so prevalent that I rarely look past the original post. . .

I agree completely, and often do the same myself.

IMO this happens because people are loathe to make any negative comments, so if they don't like a piece they simply go on and make no comment at all. I'm "guilty" of this myself - far too often any negative comment creates hard feelings or starts a war.

Perhaps the "critique requested" method will alleviate this somewhat. Time will tell.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Frank....I need to take my own advice.....Huh! I reread the sticky.

Here's what makes critiquing a crux. While someone giving a critique may help some or most turners, an improperly calloused critique can discourage and even cause a beginning turner to give up or certainly show down their development.

I would suggest if you can't be tactful while giving a critique and making suggestions for improvement, the best thing is to not give a critique.

If someone wants a critique do so in the manner outlined in the sticky.

If someone doesn't ask for a critique, respect that just as well.

Just saying something is ugly fails to help anyone and shows a lack of character on the part of the poster IMHO.

[William Hutchinson]

I think you did a good job overall. The only thing I would have changed was to use a different adverb in place of "outstandingly"

Thanks Ken, the other quality I like about this forum is the wit and banter amongst the cult... that is if you were really kidding. If your post was sarcastic criticism of my adverb choice to trash the intent of the post and poison the well- then never mind. I'll move along to another forum where people aren't so damn critical.:rolleyes:;):D

[Frank Van Atta]

I think you did a good job overall. The only thing I would have changed was to use a different adverb in place of "outstandingly"


Thanks Ken, the other quality I like about this forum is the wit and banter amongst the cult... that is if you were really kidding. If your post was sarcastic criticism of my adverb choice to trash the intent of the post and poison the well- then never mind. I'll move along to another forum where people aren't so damn critical.:rolleyes:;):D

Methinks these are the type of comment that starts food fights - smileys notwithstanding.

[Ken Hill]

Thanks Ken, the other quality I like about this forum is the wit and banter amongst the cult... that is if you were really kidding. If your post was sarcastic criticism of my adverb choice to trash the intent of the post and poison the well- then never mind. I'll move along to another forum where people aren't so damn critical.:rolleyes:;):D

Pure humor haha:D

[Scott Hackler]

I, for one, openly ask for comments (negative and positive) because I want to grow as an "artist". While I agree that some people's personal preference might bias thier comments, it is extremely nessesary for me to hear what people like and dont like. Sometimes I dont agree, but a lot of the time I can read thier comments with an open mind and see the point they are making.

A funny thing I do is to mentally keep track of the replies when someone post a picture of thier project. To me it is a sign of what the masses find acceptable and enjoyable to look at. There is something to be said about the threads with the 3+ pages of replies/comments. Most of the multi-page threads are accolades and praises, because they are a testament that someone "got it right"!

Take John Keaton, for example. He is extremely talented, as seen by the projects he has shown us. Most people are drooling over everything he post and he doesnt get much as far as negative comments. Lots of positive comments (and very well deserved, IMO). Compare that to a few of my posts and the thread counts can varify that 1) he is more talented than I (at the moment :) ) and 2) the general public finds his forms more pleasing than my own.

This obsevation means something to me. Not as a competition to John Keaton and the others, but as a creative tool for me to study what makes his thier work more appealing to the audience than what I currently produce. This mind set has helped my quest for delicate finials. While I know that the diameter I am at on my finials/pendants is an accomplishment on its own, I now must work on the contours and elements to make a perfectly flowing creation.

Staring at the work of Keaton, Fuller, Drozda, Keller and many others... helps me to work towards that "perfect form".

[Sean Hughto]

I think it's all about the original poster's desire for honest reaction and ability to take it in stride. I, personally, am always happy to have someone say what they really think because that's more interesting and useful to me than what might be thought of as kind white lies. I'm stubborn though, so I'm unluckly to get offended. By that I mean that I turn to please myself, and if a turning I've made pleases me, that pleasure is not going to be ruined because others - even master turners like many of you - don't share my enthusiasm for a particular piece.

I'll admit that I often take Thumper's mom's advice about "if you can't something nice, don't say nothing at all" around here (but I don't get to every thread either, so don't take silence from me as a put down, by the way!).

And then there are times that I have an opinion, but that I pretty much know that my opinion is not really gonna be helpful to the poster because I can see they are following their bliss and couldn't do otherwise no matter what I said (even if I had a point).

All around, an interesting topic.

Cheers!

[Allen Neighbors]

I've found that constructive criticism is essentially lacking in this board. Basically a person posts a picture which is then followed by umpteen "attaboys". The practice is so prevalent that I rarely look past the original post. Sometimes the photo limits seeing all the detail needed to really analyze the piece but not always. I would really like to see more coaching on the board.
Al, I've looked at a lot of pieces and posts on this forum. I've given attaboys many times, when I really didn't care for the overall form. But I think there are times when criticism is warranted, and times when it isn't. Sometimes folks just need an encouragement to keep on turning, and if they like a piece enough to post a pic of it, who am I to say what is or isn't "right" about it.....
If it's the poster's first piece of that type or style, I believe that it isn't proper to criticize it, when they haven't asked for a critique, and if it's a good try for the first piece, it deserves praise, of sorts, especially when we don't know the person doing the post, and when I can remember what my "firsts" (and some of my "lasts") looked like, and this piece is better.
Also, some of us, like myself, don't feel qualified to do a good critique of someone's work.
Coaching, I agree with, because it might help someone find out what they do or don't like about their own piece.
Just my opinion... :)

[Roger Chandler]

Al, I've looked at a lot of pieces and posts on this forum. I've given attaboys many times, when I really didn't care for the overall form. But I think there are times when criticism is warranted, and times when it isn't. Sometimes folks just need an encouragement to keep on turning, and if they like a piece enough to post a pic of it, who am I to say what is or isn't "right" about it.....
If it's the poster's first piece of that type or style, I believe that it isn't proper to criticize it, when they haven't asked for a critique, and if it's a good try for the first piece, it deserves praise, of sorts, especially when we don't know the person doing the post, and when I can remember what my "firsts" (and some of my "lasts") looked like, and this piece is better.
Also, some of us, like myself, don't feel qualified to do a good critique of someone's work.
Coaching, I agree with, because it might help someone find out what they do or don't like about their own piece.
Just my opinion... :)

There are 2 purposes that have helped me from this forum. Encouragement and coaching, and at times instruction on how to pull off something related to technique, etc.

Al and Allen both have good points, and both are needed. The secret to this forum being helpful is to know when one is needed and not the other.

Well said, both Allen and Al. :)

[Michael James]

I hang around here because I enjoy the humor and really am inspired by some of the work I see posted here and appreciate the turner sharing that with me, the newbie. I value the friendships I am developing and probably most appreciate the generosity and giving in this community. Amen, no higher purpose.
I turn because it fascinates me throughout the whole process, not just the parts that I enjoy about any wood work which I have done both to pay the bills, and for my own enjoyment. I do not need anyone's validation to make this more meaningful to me. I do appreciate being able to share the joy I get without comparing my stuff to yours. I do appreciate the helpful advice and I DO read through the comments and will offer what I know about something if I think it might be helpful. That is the function of the community to me. To share.
For those with the competitive button ON, I like the "critique" format and at some point would even ask for that, there are people here who mentor me that don't even know they are mentoring me..... a couple do...
So personally I would not like to see this forum become bootcamp for those of us that are not interested in that style of learning. And, I would honor any format for critiquing that the mods/sysop choose.
I thank you all for being here and sharing yourself and your work with me. I will continue to come back until I no longer get that connection.

[Roger Chandler]

I hang around here because I enjoy the humor and really am inspired by some of the work I see posted here and appreciate the turner sharing that with me, the newbie. I value the friendships I am developing and probably most appreciate the generosity and giving in this community. Amen, no higher purpose.
I turn because it fascinates me throughout the whole process, not just the parts that I enjoy about any wood work which I have done both to pay the bills, and for my own enjoyment. I do not need anyone's validation to make this more meaningful to me. I do appreciate being able to share the joy I get without comparing my stuff to yours. I do appreciate the helpful advice and I DO read through the comments and will offer what I know about something if I think it might be helpful. That is the function of the community to me. To share.
For those with the competitive button ON, I like the "critique" format and at some point would even ask for that, there are people here who mentor me that don't even know they are mentoring me..... a couple do...
So personally I would not like to see this forum become bootcamp for those of us that are not interested in that style of learning. And, I would honor any format for critiquing that the mods/sysop choose.
I thank you all for being here and sharing yourself and your work with me. I will continue to come back until I no longer get that connection.


Micheal,

Well spoken! I hope you will always feel that connection! :)