Who is Your Favorite Handsaw Maker?

[Tim Null]

Who is your favorite handsaw maker? Who is making the best rip, crosscut, tenon, dovetail saws , in your opinion? Tell us what you have used and own, please.

Thanks.

[Eric Brown]

Sorry I can't tell you what saw is best, but I don't think it matters for most people that much anymore. Lets face it, almost all the good makers use the same materials and all produce quality tools. The initial sharpening will only last so long before it needs resharpened and may end up slightly different when it is.

Perhaps what is more important is what you are doing and what saw configuration is best. I like backsaws for some cuts, panel saws for others and switch between dovetail saws depending on the situation.

I have about twenty saws (including specialty) that I choose from.
It would be difficult to narrow that down to just a couple.
There are many here that have and use even more.
It really depends on what you are doing.

Another consideration is your hand size. Most saw handles are made to fit people with average sized hands. If you have very large or small hands then a custom one might be the best option.

Also consider saw plate thickness. There are some saws with very thin blades that cut very nicely, but that thinness has a cost. The blades dull a little quicker and may be damaged easier than thicker blades in less experienced hands.

In the end, the saw is not as important as the technique used for sawing. If the saw is sharp it will cut - if used correctly.

I would suggest trying out as many as you can first. See how they feel. If you can, the Woodworkong in America show in Cincy 1-2 Oct would be a great place to see almost all the makers at once.

Good luck.

Eric

[Andrew Gibson]

I have a LN dovetail saw and 4 Winzloff and sons saw kits. I like both very much. I also have several vintage disstons. when sharpened properly thay all do quite nicely, I think the handle is the most important part.

[Chris Vandiver]

I prefer vintage Disston, Simonds or Atkins. The handle, although important, is secondary to the saw plate quality. Afterall, the plate does the cutting. Modern saws can't beat the plate quality for hardness and tension, IMHO.

[Robert Culver]

good question I have a lie nielson dovetail saw and love it. Im looking for a nice saw to cut tenons with now. Im watching ebay pretty hard but am not sure which model to get the older distons look like they had a better handle design in my oppinion.

[Johnny Kleso]

Leif Hanson
I dont think he is making them any more though

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/

Mike would ne No.2 and now better than a NorseWoodSmith I am sure

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/

[Tim Null]

Of the ones that are out there making saws, such as Mike, LN, BadAxe, etc, which ones do you own and what do you think of them?

Myself, I have two from TFWW. The dovetail that I made from kit and a sash saw I bought complete. I like both. But I am thinking of one or two more. Something to either rip occasionally and crosscut. I was thinking of the BadAxe "Jack", that seems to be like a Jack plane, can do all. Or maybe a dedicated rip and crosscut.

So looking for some ideas and opinions on what is out there.

[Dave Schwarzkopf]

I've the Bad Axe carcase and 16" tenon pair, (rip and crosscut), as well as LV, LN, and Grammercy options. My 'go-to saws are all Bad Axe.

Mark Harrell is a gentleman to deal with, and will custom file your saw to the work that you do. As soon as he puts out a dovetail saw, I'll be jumping all over it! If you have any questions about his products, I'd recommend giving him a call, very personable and won't push his products on you.

Dave

[Steve LaFara]

Leif Hanson
I dont think he is making them any more though

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/


I have three of Leif's with Cocobolo handles and they are awesome! I wish the dove tail version was a little shorter in height like the LN, but it works extremly well.

[Joe McMahon]

Chris Schwarz just put out a sawing DVD through LN. It is EXCELLENT and covers saws as well as sawing. It has a lot of information regarding points per inch, set, fleam, rake and style of saw.

I don't think any discussion of saws is complete without taking these factors into consideration.

[Jim R Edwards]

I have had no problems with my LN and vintage Disstons. The Lie Nielsen has a nicer handle in my opinion.

[Mike Zilis]

I've the Bad Axe carcase and 16" tenon pair, (rip and crosscut), as well as LV, LN, and Grammercy options. My 'go-to saws are all Bad Axe.

Mark Harrell is a gentleman to deal with, and will custom file your saw to the work that you do. As soon as he puts out a dovetail saw, I'll be jumping all over it! If you have any questions about his products, I'd recommend giving him a call, very personable and won't push his products on you.

Dave

Dave,

I recently received a prototype of the soon to be released dovetail saw from Badaxe. Compared to my pair of Lee Valley DT saws, this saw is a dream.

Mike

[Marv Werner]

Hi Tim,

I know both Mike Wenzloff and Mark Harrell. I wouldn't hesitate to do business with either one of them.

Mike might still have a long lead time for delivery. Mark is probably not backed up as much, he hasn't been in business as long. However, he has become very well known within the world of woodworking in a relatively short time. Everybody seems to know him and his products. Good news travels fast.

Both saw makers will make any saw to fit your needs. Price wise, last I checked, they are quite comparable.

For me, I think I could get used to using almost any saw regardless of the hang and handle. More importantly, in my opinion, how is the saw filed? Do you know how to sharpen it yourself or will you always have to send it to the saw maker you bought it from? Are the teeth filed in such a way that most any good saw filer can duplicate the original filing? As you know, no matter the price or who made it, it will get dull. If you use it strictly for hardwoods, it will dull sooner. If you send it to the original saw maker, are you confident that he will pay equal amount of attention to detail as he did originally?

My point here is, it's not only buying the saw that fits your needs initially, it's the maintenance of that saw as time goes by. I know this is off your posted question, but frankly, if you are someone who uses your expensive saws on a regular basis, and money is a factor, you would be wise to take some time to properly learn how to sharpen your saws. If nothing else, learn how to touch them up without changing the shape of the teeth much. Just doing that will save you a lot of shipping and resharpening costs. If a saw is touched up before it gets too dull, it only takes a couple strokes of the file on each tooth. You can do this about three times before having to add set to the teeth. Sharpening your own saws isn't something that is immediately required to continue doing your woodworking, but it's something to consider.

If you feel you will want to file your own saws, make yourself aware of how complicated the tooth profile is that your saw maker will be using to make your saw. People who file saws regularly, will usually tell you it is easy, no sweat. And it is, "for them". But if you try to file your saw for the first time, you can easily change those teeth significantly with just one pass down the tooth line. That's why I suggest, if you intend to file your own saws, spend some time to learn how to maintain that saw so it will cut as well as it did when you first got it.

If you are in a situation where you can attend the WIA show in Ohio, I think it's next week, all the major saw makers will be there. It would give you an opportunity to talk one on one with all of them and directly compare their saws. Talk to them about the tooth profile they use and how easy or difficult it might be to duplicate.

Good luck,
Marv

[Bob Betker]

I'll put in votes for Bad Axe and Mike Wenzloff as well. I've got 2 Bad Axe backsaws and 2 Wenzloff handsaws which are my go-to saws. I have an Adria DT and a couple of L-N's but their grips just aren't really comfortable for me (they don't work with my fat hands). Now that I hear Mark will be coming out with a dovetail, I think my Adria will become available for use as a down-payment for the Bad Axe DT.

Bob

[Dave Schwarzkopf]

Dave,

I recently received a prototype of the soon to be released dovetail saw from Badaxe. Compared to my pair of Lee Valley DT saws, this saw is a dream.

Mike

Mike,

Now I am both jealous and impatient! Looking forward to having one in hand.

Thanks again for the tipper,
Dave

[Tim Null]

All good stuff guys, thanks. I may have to learn how to sharpen my own saws, as Marv suggested. For any of you who do, is it any tougher than sharpening planes or files?

[Marv Werner]

Tim,

Don't know nut'n bout sharpening a file.

But, yes, lots more to learn about sharpening a saw plus you'll need a method to hold and clamp the saw while you file it. I think the vise that TFWW is a good vise. Cost about $120. You will need a good saw set. I will only recommend a Stanley 42X. I buy them on eBay. Opps...am I allowed to say that?

You will need to acquaint yourself with the various size files needed for different size teeth. TFWW will sell you some good ones and they have a list of sizes for each size tooth. Before you get started, google "sharpening handsaws" and read what all the good filers have written about it. You could start by going to Norsewood.com and read what Leif Hanson has written. He's a good start and also directs you to other treatise on the web on the subject.

Marv

[Tim Null]

Thanks Marv, meant chisels not files.......must have had that thought on the brain.

[Gary Herrmann]

I'll echo the fact that Mark Harrell is a first class guy to do business with.

Now he's coming out with a dovetail saw too? I wonder why he didn't do that first? Less competition for tenon saws maybe.

[Adam Cherubini]

Including my own line of saws my favorite saw maker is Mike Wenzloff and Sons. I think the total package- design, finishing, and toothing is the best. As individuals, I like Joel's Gramercy DT best out of the DT saws, but the handle is too thin for my meat hooks (but I'm a freak). I think a very finely toothed DT saw offers a significant difference in the capability and user experience. Applied strictly (to thin stock) this saw is just plain better than coarser toothed alternatives. I thought the spines were too light, but I liked them in use.

All the others I've tried (and I think I've tried them all except Cosman's) are nice. Most or all have something I really like about them. The LV is by far the best buy.

But some had teeth that I felt made no sense and didn't work well. For example; I'm not a fan of LN's progressive teeth. I think the difference between toe and heel is much too great. I don't recall if there was a corresponding difference in rake angle (there should have been) and I think they applied this technology to the wrong saws in their line up. It would be better on the larger saws. Really bad choice for a DT in my opinion. I've also encountered what I hope were QA problems with one saw. But this was a while ago and LN excels at working stuff liek that out.

Several makers are not tapering their saw plates (on their back saws) depthwise which I feel is an escape. It's easier to fabricate a rectangular saw plate, but it makes the tools unneccessarily toe heavy. More than that, it represents de-optimization which I feel runs counter to what the boutique saw makers should be all about. Ditto, saw makers should pay closer attention to the depth of cut and hang anges for back saws.

The one thing I think I was best at was linking teeth, handle angles and plate size and shape to actual (and specific) cuts. I wasn't the best maker, but I think my products were more highly optimized than any others on the market. I believe my soft wood rip saw for example was extremely fast cutting out of the box. I've never seen it's equal. The teeth on that saw were 100% hand filed. They changed in size and shape all across the saw plate. Not so easy to start with a mechanically toothed saw and get it to cut like mine. Next chance I get, I'll make some of these saws for industry folks or try to work out a better way to make teeth that mimic those on the rip saws I made.

I think there's a question about whether the cost associated with my custom filings (I never made money making saws) was worth it. It's possible some users wouldn't be able to tell the difference. (that doesn't mean it isn't there or that the difference is irrelevant however)

In general, I think what happened to the 19th century tool industry is that they became so big they lost touch with expert users who previously defined their products. My friend Chris Storb (carver/conservator, Philadelphia Museum of Art) says the difference between Addis' carving tools and current makers' is that Addis built tools for professional carvers and modern makers build for amateurs (us!).

I think that can happen to us so I feel questions like this one are important. My experience was, at the demo table, the DT with the finest teeth and most rake will be the biggest crowd pleasers. But these aren't necessarily features that will make them good users. So manufacturers need to be careful to make saws to support the experts all of their customers will (hopefully) soon become. That's tricky business indeed.

Adam

[David Keller NC]

Tim - I've a whole lot of saws - mostly vintage Disstons and 19th century British makers, but also around 12 Lie-Nielsens/Wenzlof & Sons/Adria, etc...

My personal preference in backsaws where the ones made in the early 20th century by the British firm Drabble & Sons because they've got exceptionally heavy brass backs, thin saw plates, and works-of-art totes. However, it might be tough to find one of these in good condition as it was a fairly small firm.

As for new saws, I personally prefer Lie-Nielsen and/or Wenzlof & Sons. To me, both have a similar design philosophy with relatively thin plates, relatively larger totes, and fairly thin brass backs.

The only caution I'd give if you decide on one of the small-shop saws (Wenzlof & Sons, Bad Axe, etc...) is that you call to check for availability before you buy. Most of these gentlemen don't have the manufacturing capacity to keep up with the demand for their products, and you could be waiting as long as 6 months for your order if it's not in stock.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I mostly use Japanese saws and the best (vs favorite, I actually don't much like this guy) I know of was Yataiki (Miyano del Endo); but he's on his last legs and I'm waiting for Mark Grable (he studied with Yataiki) to come to market. Fortunately I probably won't need more saws anytime soon.

Pam

[Johnny Kleso]

Another good saw maker is Ed Paik not to be over looked..
http://www.medalliontools.com/

He made one of three saw makers that started their businesses on another web fourm when they allowed members to sell direct to other members it was a really great thing to see these small businesses start

[Gary Radice]

My personal preference in backsaws where the ones made in the early 20th century by the British firm Drabble & Sons because they've got exceptionally heavy brass backs, thin saw plates, and works-of-art totes. However, it might be tough to find one of these in good condition as it was a fairly small firm.


I recently picked up a Drabble and Sanderson DT saw from a well known online auction site. It is dull and I haven't sharpened it yet to use it, but it fits my hand nicely. This is my first English cabinetry saw. I've used Japanese saws almost exclusively before so I can't really weigh in on which saw is the best. Just thought I would toss up a picture since David mentioned Drabble and Sanderson.

[David Gendron]

In my opinion, the best one I have are the Bad Axe saws, and I have LN, Medallion, Wenzloff, Adria, Gramercy and some vintage ones... That said other than the LN, all the other are great saws espacialy the Adria(carcass and tenon saw) and Gramercy(only have there DT saw) and these are all back saws. As for panel saw, I love my old disston #7, nothinh better then them in my opinion!!
But again, this is all mather of preferences, since all of them(new saw makers) make wonderfull saws!!

[Marv Werner]

Hi David,

All of those saw makers fall into a certain category of expertise...

Then there are the Andrew Lunn saws that are in a category of their own. I can understand why his saws have not been mentioned in this thread.

Marv

[Michael Hammers]

My favorite for joinery saws is Andrew Lunn's Eccentric Toolworks ...I just ordered my first panel saw from Mike W. so I am sure it will be just fine...

M

[David Weaver]

The only saws I have are wenzloff saws, and those are kits, but after dealing with Mike, he gets my vote. Patient discussion, prices that are way more than fair, and a full line of saws from dovetail to panel saws, including tapered blade panel saws.

The kit parts are top notch to your specs and really inexpensive for what you get.

I have never used a new panel or carpenter's saw, but I like #7s and #12s an awful lot. I'd imagine I would like any saw with a lot of taper and a handle orientation ( to the plate ) like a #12 or #7 tote.

That said, it is awfully awfully difficult to beat gyochuko and Z brand saws for value in very tough and very useful and nice cutting utility grade saws. If you shop around, their impulse hardened blades are only marginally more than files cost if you figure they hold their edges a whole lot longer than do western saws. They are not taper ground and do not feel like an expensive saw, but they leave a cut quality that i haven't seen anywhere else - especially not at the speed that they do it.

[Marv Werner]

Michael,

A very nice display of the best saws on the market. I especially like the one on the left. Took more than a couple days to make that handle.

Marv

[Michael Hammers]

Thank you...Andrew is not only a super talented tool maker but just a genuine down to earth super nice guy.

Now to get my skill level up to what these saws are capable of.

Having a high-end saw does not magically make one a master sawyer...;)

I am very much looking forward to receiving Mike's saw...After chatting him up he is kindly using a piece of figured maple he had sitting about to go with the maple on the joinery saws..(oh vanity):o

22" blade length
9 ppi cross cut
.035" taper ground
7" height at the heel
Curly Maple handle


Cheers,

Michael

[Tony Shea]

It's too bad, I just recently read a disheartening post about a lost customer of Andrew's. Unfortunatly I've only got one side of the story (dis-satisfied customer) and can only judge the situation by that. Not that I could even dream about affording to spend that kind of money on a saw. Those saws sure are beautiful though, a little too flashy for my taste. I'd be afraid to use one of those saws and would probably cry if anything happened to one.

[Marv Werner]

Hi Michael,

I'm in total agreement with you regarding Andrew Lunn.

I have done some wheat carving for Mike. His handles are superb. Not in Andrew's category, but for a production handle, Mike and Son,s do consistent work that surely warrants their well earned reputation.

Marv

[Tim Null]

So at this point, I have a Grammercy Dovetail and Sash saw as well as the little bow saw that uses the coping saw blades.

I am thinking of making a larger bow saw and can't decide whether to get a large tenon saw like Bad Axe Jack, or a panel like the LN in addition.

I am from a power background, just getting into hand tools. I know the advice would be get both, can't have too many.

But what should be next? What does the panel offer as opposed the the tenon and vice versa?

[Jonathan McCullough]

So at this point, I have a Grammercy Dovetail and Sash saw as well as the little bow saw that uses the coping saw blades.

I am thinking of making a larger bow saw and can't decide whether to get a large tenon saw like Bad Axe Jack, or a panel like the LN in addition.

I am from a power background, just getting into hand tools. I know the advice would be get both, can't have too many.

But what should be next? What does the panel offer as opposed the the tenon and vice versa?

If you're going to do some mortise and tenon joinery, I'd suggest you get a tenon saw; it would complement your sash saw quite nicely in that application. An 18"-22" panel saw is handy to have around the bench for cutting things that are too thick to accommodate a sash/carcase saw's back; most are filed crosscut with a high tpi like 10 - 12 tpi and can make some pretty respectably smooth cuts. If you don't already have one, I'd suggest a regular 26" hand saw at about 8 TPI for chopping stuff up to size for work on the bench.

I do not like saws with in-line handles like gents' saws or bow saws. After only a bit of use they are uncomfortable for my wrist and do not have the control of a back saw. I've been thinking of adapting or making a butcher's saw with thinner coping saw blade for a the maneuverability of a bow saw but the comfort of a back saw.

[Tim Null]

Thats kind of what I thought, I need both!

I like the Bad Axe Jack saw from the looks of it and the LN panel. Anyone have either of these or any other recommendations?

[David Gendron]

Hi Marv, I didn't mantion Andrew, just cause I thought it would start a long debate on saw $$... I was in line for on of his saw, and the guy is a thrue gentleman and a great person to exchange thoughts with!

One day I will own one of his saw!

Cheers

[Michael Hammers]

Hi Michael,

I'm in total agreement with you regarding Andrew Lunn.

I have done some wheat carving for Mike. His handles are superb. Not in Andrew's category, but for a production handle, Mike and Son,s do consistent work that surely warrants their well earned reputation.

Marv


Marv...

I am pretty excited to get Mike's saw. It was a lot of fun chatting with him. I would love to see your wheat carvings by the way...!!

I love artisan made tools, it is another dimension of the hobby for me.


I contacted Adam C. recently about getting one of his saws but at this time it was not possible :( So hopefully in the future I can get a saw made by Adam. I do admire his work and research.

I plan on getting a long saw from Andrew this winter. I needed a long saw to replace a broken saw quickly so I went with Mike (because my forray into Japanese saws was disaterous.) My fault not the saw. :o


I took down a large apple tree a while ago and have it drying, so I hope to have my handle made from that.

Mike

[David Weaver]

I took down a large apple tree a while ago and have it drying,

Homena homena