8000 stone

[John Powers]

I just received and used a norton 1000/4000 grit stone. Eyeopening experience. Money is a consideration here so before free shipping ends, tell me. Norton says 4000 will get the edge and 8000 polishes. I don't need polished but I do want sharp. Norton users tell me. Can I quit at 4000?

[Mark Roderick]

In my opinion no, you can't stop at 4,000. There's a meaningful improvement in the performance of the tool if you use the 8,000 grit stone.

In fact, you should really take a step beyond that and strop the tool on something. I use green paste on a piece of MDF. Fortunately there's close to a zero cost for that step.

[john brenton]

I would go ahead and get the 4000/8000 stone. The 4000 is such a great grit to use that it wouldn't hurt to have two of them.


I just received and used a norton 1000/4000 grit stone. Eyeopening experience. Money is a consideration here so before free shipping ends, tell me. Norton says 4000 will get the edge and 8000 polishes. I don't need polished but I do want sharp. Norton users tell me. Can I quit at 4000?

[Prashun Patel]

I just received and used a norton 1000/4000 grit stone. Eyeopening experience. Money is a consideration here so before free shipping ends, tell me. Norton says 4000 will get the edge and 8000 polishes. I don't need polished but I do want sharp. Norton users tell me. Can I quit at 4000?

Check out the SMC classifieds. There are a couple of stones for sale there.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I agree with Mark. Get the 8000 and then strop. Green compound can be found at ToolsforWorkingWood or Lee Valley. That and a piece of MDF or scrap hardwood is cheap.

[David Weaver]

This is what I would also do if cost is an issue (the mdf and green stuff).

The green stuff at sears for $2.75 is also fine if you don't want to pay shipping or even pay $7 for the microfine crayon. I don't know what's in it, but it cuts a little faster than the lee valley stuff. There is no way that it is as coarse as an 8000 stone, though, so you will not lose any polishing ability with it. Works better if you have some very light lubricant to work with it - I use light mineral oil.

the iron would be no sharper with an 8k stone than it is with this method, but stones are sometimes a little nicer to use.

[John Powers]

Been using the green stuff from LV for years. Thing lasts forever. I'm so pleased with the new 1000/4000 stone I may just hold off on further upgrades for now. Trying to ween myself off the jig right now and go freehand also. Joels CD makes it look easy. Thanks for the info.

[David Weaver]

Been using the green stuff from LV for years. Thing lasts forever. I'm so pleased with the new 1000/4000 stone I may just hold off on further upgrades for now. Trying to ween myself off the jig right now and go freehand also. Joels CD makes it look easy. Thanks for the info.

If you're going freehand, MDF with the green stuff and a little light lubricant has a very nice feel. Pretty much anything that doesn't disagree with the MDF is OK for a lube. I've used camelia oil, too, which works fine, but it's more expensive to use for that - costs the same for a pint as mineral oil does for a gallon.

[Andrew Gibson]

My stone collection has grown greatly this year and so has my sharpening abilities. I have King stones in 800, 1200, 4000 and 8000. I also have and use the green compound on everything I sharpen. If you made me choose between my 8000 stone and the green compound I would keep the compound.

With free shipping I have a 200 stone on the way as well for reestablishing primary bevels and removing damage and a Nagura(sp) stone.

I still use my cheep sharpening jig for most things, and free hand what the jig can't handle.

[Jim Galvin]

I've seen a well known woodworker just use a 800 & 1200 grit waterstones and strop with Herb's yellowstone and his edges are sharp. When asked about going finer with the stones he replied " do you want to work wood or sharpen tools"

Jim

[David Weaver]

I'm not quite sure why anyone says stuff like that.

You can do the same thing just as fast or faster with two shaptons - a 1000 and a 15000 (speaking of the professional stones). It takes me less than a minute to sharpen a chisel. It takes me much longer to take a plane apart and put it back together than it does to sharpen the iron. I *never* have to do it twice, either.

That is my general maintenance sharpening routine for chisels and smoothing plane irons. I have *never* needed to strop from that, and never needed to use another stone. I have prepped new tools with just those two without incident, too, including polishing the backs of irons. It's doable because the abrasives are very aggressive, which allows you to skip a lot of steps.

I have also maintained some tools only with a power strop, that's even quicker. It's harder to control geometry, though, and I usually use my lathe as the powerstrop, and sometimes that's not handy.

There seems to be a movement of people who use older methods or coarser methods of sharpening where they feel like there is something superior and faster about that. It's especially prevalent among oilstone users, and it is fine if someone is comfortable with those methods, but it is no longer the case that fine means slow.

I didn't get oilstones until this year. My oilstones are fun to use, but they cost a lot more than my two shaptons, and if anyone is being honest, they are not as effective.

[Steve Branam]

With free shipping I have a 200 stone on the way as well for reestablishing primary bevels and removing damage and a Nagura(sp) stone.

For repairing damage, I've started using a piece of MDF with some coarse grit PSA paper adhered (I use 80 on one side and 120 on the other, might even try 60). I can be as mean and rough with this as I want, including heavy two-handed pressure from a backing stick when flattening a nasty back, a la Toshio Odate or David Weaver's two handed holder.

Conversely, I found the Norton 220 to be pretty soft, so I was afraid a lot of heavy repair grinding would wear it down too quickly. By using the paper for the bulk of the heavy work, I can spare the 220 for the last bit.

Of course, a 220 is pretty cheap, so I may be fooling myself and trading off slower grinding to save an inexpensive stone. I haven't tried to compare grinding time between the stone and the paper.

[michael osadchuk]

For repairing damage, I've started using a piece of MDF with some coarse grit PSA paper adhered (I use 80 on one side and 120 on the other, might even try 60). I can be as mean and rough with this as I want, including heavy two-handed pressure from a backing stick when flattening a nasty back, a la Toshio Odate or David Weaver's two handed holder.

Conversely, I found the Norton 220 to be pretty soft, so I was afraid a lot of heavy repair grinding would wear it down too quickly. By using the paper for the bulk of the heavy work, I can spare the 220 for the last bit.

Of course, a 220 is pretty cheap, so I may be fooling myself and trading off slower grinding to save an inexpensive stone. I haven't tried to compare grinding time between the stone and the paper.

I also found the Norton 220 soft and figured that its useful would be dramatically short. I returned the stone and got the bigger 200 grit stone and find that it cuts great and doesn't noticeably shrink.

And shapening and honing is not polishing....... 8000, 15000, good 'polishing' natural Japanese stones, honing compound all sharpen and, at the extremes, make the edge more uniform (this is visible in electron microscope pictures) and, apparently, make the edge more durable.
You don't need an uber sharp edge for every task, but for final plane smoothing or working with difficult wood, every bit of edge sharpness your sharpening media and skills can generate is, imho, materially beneficial.

good luck

michael

[Don Dorn]

I use an 8000 stone and get edges plenty sharp enough. That said - according to his DVD, Frank Klausz goes to 6000. There is quite a cost difference between 6 and 8k. I have a 6k and when my 8k wears out, I'm going to try it before getting another 8k, mostly out of curiousity. I've never tried the paste before and while I'm sure it works well based on what I read, I'd rather not mess with it - I want to get back to work after my last stone.

[Russell Sansom]

I like the 6000 Shapton, but for me it's not really a substitute for the 8000. It's always a call to make at the time depending on how the dullness shows itself, but generally, I can go 1000, 6000, 8000, wishing the 6000 were a 4000 or a 5000. For me, again sort of an average, 2-6 swipes on the 1k, 2 on the 6 k and another 2 or 3 on the 8000.
For plane irons, I almost always take a couple quick swipes on the 16k. That way I know exactly how sharp it was before I put it back to work. If the iron isn't perfectly ready, the 16k will show it and save me a trip to the low-powered microscope.

Epigrams, like "would you rather work wood or sharpen tools" give me a satisfying chuckle, but 1) sharper tools give me the results I want and, 2) I can go much longer between sharpenings and I can touch up more quickly with less removal of expensive tool steel.

[John Coloccia]

Because I HATE to soak waterstones, here's what I use:

DMT Blue/Red (I think coarse/fine) stone for shaping.

Norton 8000 stone for general sharpening/honing.

Shapton 16,000 stone for honing/polishing.

and a leather strop.

Nothing here needs to be soaked. Just a spritz of water. If you keep your edges in good shape, you shouldn't need to go finer than 8000 for a touch up. Just keep them sharp, and a light honing/polishing should maintain that unless you really screw up the edge and need to reshape it.

Under 8000, the Norton stones need to be soaked. 8000 and up, just a light spray of water get them working properly.

Anyhow, that's just how I do it, and my stuff is as sharp as it gets, all the time, and it only takes a minute to get it there.

[Brian Ashton]

Now to really give you a headache with all the options... I used a mdf disk mounted on a 3phase motor connected to a variable frequency drive so I can get down to some really slow speeds. I charge the disk with white buffing compound. This allows me to go straight from the grinder to the mdf wheel. Produces a blood letting sharp edge. Using green compound would make the tool even sharper. The sharper the edge that cuts flesh the longer you'll bleed. You can try it if you like but I wouldn't recommend it. An alternative is to mount an mdf disk on a lathe. The trick is to keep the speeds down enough to not over heat the wax matrix of the buffing compound, otherwise it gets so sticky it sticks to the blade back. For this a regular grinder wont work or even a "slow speed" one for that matter. In nearly 35 years of sharpening stuff it's the best method I've worked with.

PS
I use this method for sharpening my carving chisels and then give them a touch on a buffing wheel for a final tweak. They're so sharp I swear it feels like they can pull themselves through the wood they're so sharp - almost too sharp.

[Frank Drew]

I think perhaps the point of the remark about sharpening tools vs actually using them is that it's not unheard of (!) for folks to become a bit obsessive about sharpening stones, routines, getting the perfect combination of grits, etc., etc.

In many years of working at the bench, I finally settled on Japanese waterstones, 1000 or 1200 for initial sharpening followed by 6000 for polishing. Then back to work.

We're not polishing the mirrors for the Hubble space telescope, after all.

[John Coloccia]

I think perhaps the point of the remark about sharpening tools vs actually using them is that it's not unheard of (!) for folks to become a bit obsessive about sharpening stones, routines, getting the perfect combination of grits, etc., etc.

In many years of working at the bench, I finally settled on Japanese waterstones, 1000 or 1200 for initial sharpening followed by 6000 for polishing. Then back to work.

We're not polishing the mirrors for the Hubble space telescope, after all.

There's plenty of woodworkers out there that stick their Buck Bros. chisel on a bench grinder and call it sharp because they don't see anymore nicks in the edge. To them, you're the one polishing mirrors for the Hubble space telescope.

It's impossible for anyone here to tell anyone else how sharp is sharp enough. It depends on the application. Not everyone is chopping mortises or making dovetails. 6000 is probably fine for that, but there's no denying that going to 16000 and following with a strop is a whole different level of sharp. Some people want that for whatever reason. I hone and strop my chisels long before most anyone else would, but then again I need to be able to trim and shape, with great accuracy, endgrain on sitka spruce, for example. "Arm shaving sharp" is simply not sharp enough to do that without crushing and tearing. Heck, my tools still shave at the point I consider them dull.

[Brian Ashton]

I think perhaps the point of the remark about sharpening tools vs actually using them is that it's not unheard of (!) for folks to become a bit obsessive about sharpening stones, routines, getting the perfect combination of grits, etc., etc.

In many years of working at the bench, I finally settled on Japanese waterstones, 1000 or 1200 for initial sharpening followed by 6000 for polishing. Then back to work.

We're not polishing the mirrors for the Hubble space telescope, after all.


Or! Here a really far out theory on the subject. Maybe, just maybe, people like to share their methods of what they do and how well it works for them. Then if that weren't enough people could take from it what they want and come up with their own personal method... Ya, you're right probably a completely outlandish idea...

As a matter of fact I have a method for polishing mirrors for the space shuttle! It's over at shacetravelforameturesforum.com. Maybe you'd like to read it.

[Richard Jones]

I just received and used a norton 1000/4000 grit stone. Eyeopening experience. Money is a consideration here so before free shipping ends, tell me. Norton says 4000 will get the edge and 8000 polishes. I don't need polished but I do want sharp. Norton users tell me. Can I quit at 4000?

You could probably quit at a better quality 4000 stone, but I really don't like the Norton 4000. For me, it gouges easily, wears quickly, and really doesn't act like any other 4000 stone that I have. To me, it's certainly not in the same league as a Shapton 4k. Not knocking Norton, as I think the 8000 is a great stone. The best thing I can say about the Norton 4000 is that it makes a great base for my 8000..........

Anyone else dislike the Norton 4000?

Rich