US manufactured woodworking machines

[Greg Book]

I've noticed a lot of threads about Grizzly on this site, and I think its because those tools are very affordable and very popular with all but the biggest shops. I've also been reading a book about the 'China price', which is the extremely low cost of manufacturing anything in China (or southeast Asia in general), and those two things got me thinking about the source of woodworking tools.

My question is ... what woodworking tools are still manufactured in the United States?

I have a Porter-Cable drill, some Jorgenson and Quik-grip clamps from the early 1990s, all made in USA. I recently bought a new Porter-cable drill and Jorgenson clamps, all made in China. In the last 15 years, lots of tools are no longer made in the US.

[Neil Brooks]

A place to start.....

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html

[Rod Sheridan]

I believe Pistorius machinery is still made in New York.......Rod.

P.S. I should have mentioned Oneida, after all I own one of their cyclones, and of course The Original Saw Company.

Many Lee Valley items are made in Canada and the USA.

[Dan Blackshear]

I was just thinking about this while looking at the Grizzly Bashing/lovefest thread. Someone mentioned it was good to have choices, but when it comes to stationary tools, do we really have a choice? I mean other than the color.

If it's a large stationary tool, such as a tablesaw, jointer, planer, etc. then it's either made in Asia modeled after American designs or it's made in Europe to a whole different standard and with the price premium that goes with it.

For the majority of woodworkers in this country who do this as a hobby, it just makes financial sense to get as much as we can for the amount of money we have to spend, and unless you have the patience, luck and room for "Old Iron" then your tooling is made in Asia. The only choice you have really is who you have importing it.

There are some European machines in hobbyist shops, but the price difference is still significant and in some situations it was the only choice they had as well due to space constraints (I'm thinking about the 5-way combos) I would love to have a shop full of European tools, but I can't justify spending $9000 for a 16" jointer/planer when I can get a 12" jointer and a 20" planer for half of that. Technically yes I have a choice, but realistically I don't.

[jim goddard]

Dan
There are plenty of older Delta & Powermatic machines on the market which dont require a rigger to move. Buying good used American usually makes more sense $$$ & parts wise than new Chinese. Even some of the 'big' iron is small enough for removal w/o a rigger. The 3ph 'problem' is even easily solvable w/ the newer solid state motor controls.

[Paul McGaha]

As for table saws I think the Delta Unisaw is still American made. Sawstop also I think.

As for jointers, planers, shapers, band saws, drill presses, miter saws I dont know of any of the widely known brands still American made.

I dont know of any portable tools that are still American made.

To their credit companies like Grizzly and Jet have made affordable, Asian made tools available to us. Powermatic, Delta, General followed their example.

Oneida Duct Collectors are still American made. It must be very difficult for them to compete with Asian made Dust Collectors like Grizzly due to American labor being so much more expensive.

Just my $.02.

PHM

[Rod Sheridan]

General is made in Canada and is the type of machinery I think of when people ask about made in the USA machinery, such as the older Powermatic equipment etc.

My issue with North American equipment is that the design is so dated in comparison with some of the more modern machines, such as the Euro stuff.

My wife owns a Rockwell wood lathe, made in Canada, it's probably about 40 years old. It still does the basic wood lathe stuff (spin something around so you can use a hand held gouge to cut the wood), yet it's a far cry from a OneWay lathe (also made in Canada).

Of course what we forget is that when the American or Canadian machinery was the mainstay of woodworking, most hobby wood workers didn't own a General or a Powermatic product, they had Craftsman etc.

It's great to own an old Delta or PowerMatic or General machine, however the newer machines have improved in many ways, especially dust collection, safety, and capabilities such as sliding tables, tilting spindle shapers etc that have come into the hobby range.

Regards, Rod.

[Brian Kincaid]

Northfield! I'd love to have one. Look them up and you'll see why I do not.

-Brian

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Northfield but be prepared to pay 8 to 10 times what a comparable import costs.

Is the quality of the import the same......probably not but neither is the price. If the quality is the same, why would you want to pay 8-10 times the price?

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> Sawstop also I think.

Nope, Saw Stop is made in Taiwan (or China) with close control by Saw Stop.

[Nick Lazz]

General is made in Canada and is the type of machinery I think of when people ask about made in the USA machinery, such as the older Powermatic equipment etc.

The larger General machinery is made in Canada. The other stuff is Taiwan and goes under General international.

[Nick Lazz]

I've noticed a lot of threads about Grizzly on this site, and I think its because those tools are very affordable and very popular with all but the biggest shops. I've also been reading a book about the 'China price', which is the extremely low cost of manufacturing anything in China (or southeast Asia in general), and those two things got me thinking about the source of woodworking tools.

My question is ... what woodworking tools are still manufactured in the United States?

I have a Porter-Cable drill, some Jorgenson and Quik-grip clamps from the early 1990s, all made in USA. I recently bought a new Porter-cable drill and Jorgenson clamps, all made in China. In the last 15 years, lots of tools are no longer made in the US.

This is a topic I have long struggled over. I have a mix in my shop and take the small victories. Many small hand tools are still made in the USA. As for machinery, there just isn't much as most American companies have shipped their manufacturing jobs over seas.
On my Grizzly table saw, however, one of the selling points to me was the USA made motor on it. Not all of their table saws are equipped that way, but I look for the small things like this to help me make my purchases when I can.

[Dave Lehnert]

Shopsmith is made in Dayton Ohio. Most all my Shopsmith equipment is over 20 years old. In that 20 years I have had to replace a set screw on my planer and the power switch on my MarkV. That's it.
I own the MarkV, Pro Planer, Jointer, Bandsaw, Strip sander, belt sander, dust collector and the old style Jigsaw made in the 1950's.
http://www.shopsmith.com/markvsite/images/AnvMarkVGlamour6.gifhttp://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/images/Jointer.jpghttp://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/images/Bandsaw.jpghttp://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/images/01_BeltSander.jpghttp://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/images/01_StripSander.jpghttp://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/images/FSProPlaner.jpghttp://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/images/DustCollector.jpghttp://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/faq/images/jigsaw.jpg

[Lewis Ehrhardt]

But, we do send them a lot of metal to make the stuff.

[Greg Book]

>>>> Sawstop also I think.

Nope, Saw Stop is made in Taiwan (or China) with close control by Saw Stop.

This has surprised me as well. I initially assumed that SawStop was made in the US, because of its high price. Or at least assembled in the US. I understand the electronics would be cheaper from Asia, but if a Delta Unisaw costs $3k+ made in the US, why would the SawStop cost $3k+ made in China?

I imagine SawStop could easily charge a tiny bit more and make the saws in the US. That would a double selling point for them. Made in the US, and super safe!

[Neil Brooks]

This has surprised me as well. I initially assumed that SawStop was made in the US, because of its high price. Or at least assembled in the US. I understand the electronics would be cheaper from Asia, but if a Delta Unisaw costs $3k+ made in the US, why would the SawStop cost $3k+ made in China?

Possible answer: the SawStop guy wants a higher profit margin.

[Zach England]

I fail to understand this obsession with "made in USA" being stamped on something. Even if something is "made" in the United States, the parts and materials are likely sourced from all over the world.

[Paul Canaris]

I think the JDS Multi-Router is.

[Rob Steffeck]

I fail to understand this obsession with "made in USA" being stamped on something. Even if something is "made" in the United States, the parts and materials are likely sourced from all over the world.

Thats not necessarily true. FTC has requirements for that phrase. If something is advertised as "Made in the USA" it must have all, or virtually all, of it made in the USA and that includes components.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm

[Zach England]

Thats not necessarily true. FTC has requirements for that phrase. If something is advertised as "Made in the USA" it must have all, or virtually all, of it made in the USA and that includes components.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm



To be fair I am not very knowledgeable about those regulations. Perhaps they are stricter than I have been assuming.


...but I still don't care where it's made (all else being equal, that is).

[David Weaver]

I think the JDS Multi-Router is.

Yes, and it's a dandy tool. A bit salty for some, though.

As far as the discussion about stationary tools, I can't think of many, and i'm one of the people who probably would get labeled as a grizzly basher. It is undeniable that grizzly and the other importers have made hobby woodworking at a higher level (equipment-wise) affordable for us. I'm in that category - I couldn't afford (or at least my marriage couldn't afford) new or lightly used industrial equipment, and if a TS was inflation adjusted vs. what they were in 1993, I'd probably have a cheap contractor's saw or no saw at all instead of a delta hybrid (which, coincidentally is much lower quality than all of the older serious good-quality contractor's saws I've seen. More features, but definitely less quality).

Where I think we've really seen a service is in large planers and jointers, and especially in a really good set of usable bandsaws in the 18 inch range. They can resaw large boards and, have nice features and can be found in the low 1000s.

[Bryan Morgan]

I fail to understand this obsession with "made in USA" being stamped on something. Even if something is "made" in the United States, the parts and materials are likely sourced from all over the world.


It means one of your countrymen has a job making something for you. At least that's what I'm told. I really don't care where my stuff is made. If its quality, does what I need at a price I'm willing to pay, who cares?

We just had a discussion at work about this. From what we're told, the only reason some China stuff is crap is because they have sort of an employment bubble going on over there. Companies keep offering more money or benefits so workers keep jumping ship and never stay in one place long enough to become skilled at what they are doing. Apparently there are a few musical instrument places (like Behringer city) that treat their employees well so they stick around and their products are of a nice quality (I have a Bugera amp myself and it is very nice). How true this is, I don't know... its just what I was told.

[Chip Lindley]

The two flagship USA brands, Delta and Powermatic machinery, are now predominately imported from China. (parts or whole) Their prices still above other imported brands, which may roll off the same assembly line. Delta/Powermatic count on "the label and the color" to help bring a premium price. In 1985, Rockwell's first-ever four-post planer (RC-33, 13") had a list price of over $1500 plus shipping. The stand was optional. In 1985 I grossed about $50 a day.

There were only small discounts, and rarely a used one at that time. Grizzly had a new 15" clone planer for about $695, but was an import upstart in the early '80s, and unproven as to quality. So, I was elated to find a barely used RC-33 for $900 in the Kansas City Star classifieds. The next day my pregnant wife and I drove 6 hrs. round trip to haul the planer home in the trunk of my old '72 Monte Carlo. That planer (made in Brazil by Invicta) remained the most expensive machine in my shop for almost 25 years. But, it did earn it's keep on a regular basis. That Rockwell paid for itself when other machines did not.

My only import machine that will remain, is a $400 gloat Woodtek 3hp shaper. (also from KC) It runs smooth as silk and has fine fit and finish, in spite of those John Deere colors. The Grizzly drum sander vacated when the Woodmaster came in! And it is only a matter of time before the ShopFox 20" planer makes way for a Delta/Invicta RC-51 20"!

162332

It's a very Global Economy 25 years after I bought my first non-Sears woodworking machine. (Emerson has cast lots of aluminum since then) We woodworking Americans still have a choice: either buy new Asian stuff at prices that can't be beat, OR buy older, pre-Reagan Era machines. Woodworking imports only add a drop in the bucket to the huge U.S. trade deficit with China. Grizzly is not the main culprit! But, I have always wondered why WallyWorld has a McBurger's and not Stir-fried Rice.

[Vijay Kumar]

The two flagship USA brands, Delta and Powermatic machinery, are now predominately imported from China. (parts or whole) Their prices still above other imported brands, which may roll off the same assembly line. Delta/Powermatic count on "the label and the color" to help bring a premium price. In 1985, Rockwell's first-ever four-post planer (RC-33, 13") had a list price of over $1500 plus shipping. The stand was optional. In 1985 I grossed about $50 a day.

There were only small discounts, and rarely a used one at that time. Grizzly had a new 15" clone planer for about $695, but was an import upstart in the early '80s, and unproven as to quality. So, I was elated to find a barely used RC-33 for $900 in the Kansas City Star classifieds. The next day my pregnant wife and I drove 6 hrs. round trip to haul the planer home in the trunk of my old '72 Monte Carlo. That planer (made in Brazil by Invicta) remained the most expensive machine in my shop for almost 25 years. But, it did earn it's keep on a regular basis. That Rockwell paid for itself when other machines did not.

My only import machine that will remain, is a $400 gloat Woodtek 3hp shaper. (also from KC) It runs smooth as silk and has fine fit and finish, in spite of those John Deere colors. The Grizzly drum sander vacated when the Woodmaster came in! And it is only a matter of time before the ShopFox 20" planer makes way for a Delta/Invicta RC-51 20"!

162332

It's a very Global Economy 25 years after I bought my first non-Sears woodworking machine. (Emerson has cast lots of aluminum since then) We woodworking Americans still have a choice: either buy new Asian stuff at prices that can't be beat, OR buy older, pre-Reagan Era machines. Woodworking imports only add a drop in the bucket to the huge U.S. trade deficit with China. Grizzly is not the main culprit! But, I have always wondered why WallyWorld has a McBurger's and not Stir-fried Rice.


Chip, it seems that even the machine you bought in the early eighties was an import-a Brazilian one as opposed to a Chinese or Taiwanese unit that you buy today. Clearly it is possible to buy a machine import or otherwise if you are willing to pay enough. To translate your eighties experience, your $ 900 then was equal to $50 x 18 days of pay. If today you make $ 78k annually then 18 days of salary translates to $ 5400 (=18 days *$78000/260days). I am sure if many people were to pay that type of money for a machine there still would be manufacturers left in the US (to say nothing of Brazil). I for one would not, because though emotionally I may want to buy a made in US machine, on a more pragmatic level I do know that the China/Taiwan offerings from a reputable brand (such as Grizzly) is probably going to be OK. And when the price difference is so high I am willing to take a chance.

As far as you example of the Wallyburger, it really depends on your target audience--maybe where you are in Missouri fried rice may not sell, but out here in California they sell egg rolls along with hot dogs at the ball park.

[Greg Portland]

The Delta Unisaw is not 100% made in the USA: http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Unisaw+Made+In+The+USA.aspx

I will buy whatever product has the highest degree of quality @ my budget for that tool. There are many US manufacturers who have figured out that if they make good tools people will buy them (Lie Nielsen, Incra, etc.).

[Chris Mahmood]

To be fair I am not very knowledgeable about those regulations. Perhaps they are stricter than I have been assuming.


...but I still don't care where it's made (all else being equal, that is).

They can be absolutely strict but if they aren't enforced then they just get ignored. New Balance is a good example of this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36476797/ns/business-us_business/ I recall Leonard Lee writing in one of the Lee Valley newsletters that they had been approached by a Chinese manufacturer who said they could label tools as being made in whatever country Lee Valley wanted. Considering the Walmarts of the world don't have any qualms
about selling children's toys covered in lead paint and who knows what else I doubt they'd get hung up on whether a tool with a Made in USA sticker really was.

* When a particular item is recalled they stop selling it but they do nothing proactive (testing, cracking down on suppliers, etc.) which, at least to me, means they are fine selling it as long as they get caught.

[Dave Sabo]

You guys aren't old enough to remember but at one time "made in the USA" had the same undertones of schlocky quality that most of you think made in China or wherever does today.

At one time America had a large workforce willing to work for lower wages than did continental European and English workers. So off to the colonies went production.

Things change, the world get larger and smaller, and there will always be someone willing to work for less money.

[Bob Falk]

Robust lathes (turnrobust.com) are not only one of the best bowl lathes out there, they are made, almost entirely, in the State of Wisconsin.

[Gary Hodgin]

New Economy -- U.S. designs, sells, finances. Asia manufactures.

[Darl Bundren]

My Clearvue Cyclone was made right down the mountain in South Carolina. I don't know if they're still making them, though, as I haven't seen much of them. I went down and toured the place. I enjoyed it.

[Ben Martin]

You want made in the USA, buy used vintage equipment. Go over to OWWM, you will find that machines manufactured today or 50 years ago have about 0 functional difference between them, besides lack of quality.

Watch CL like a hawk, $40 will buy you a heck of a lot these days....

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp325/martbj/Delta%20Deluxe%20Radial%20Arm%20Saw/330621040_photobucket_17648_.jpg

Just my $0.02...

[Trent Whitehead]

Just to make you feel better about buying import stuff. You do buy it from an American business owner, with an American sales force, The item was delivered by an American truck driver, unloaded off the ship by American (mostly) dock workers. Your money does help the American economy, it also at the same time helps the world economy.

Just offering another way to look at it. :)

[Jim O'Dell]

Darl, the Clear Vue is still made in the US of A, but not on the east coast any longer. Oregon IIRC. Ed retired and sold the business a few months ago. But it has allowed him to be more active in his shop, and here at the Creek! Jim.

[Ted Wong]

I've noticed a lot of threads about Grizzly on this site, and I think its because those tools are very affordable and very popular with all but the biggest shops. I've also been reading a book about the 'China price', which is the extremely low cost of manufacturing anything in China (or southeast Asia in general), and those two things got me thinking about the source of woodworking tools.

My question is ... what woodworking tools are still manufactured in the United States?

I have a Porter-Cable drill, some Jorgenson and Quik-grip clamps from the early 1990s, all made in USA. I recently bought a new Porter-cable drill and Jorgenson clamps, all made in China. In the last 15 years, lots of tools are no longer made in the US.
Yes Chinese equipment is considerably less money than USA made stuff. The economies of scale are one of the variables but so are government regulations that protect human life and welfare such as OSHA, EPA, Workmens Comp, etc.
We've all heard this before and in my mind it is true but taking the bait now just speeds our race to the bottom. Buy cheap now and pay many times over later.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ben,

Not everybody has the time, the skill or the desire to restore old machines.

I don't want to learn to pour bearings......I don't want to deal with taking things to a machine shop to have it machined to accept new parts. I don't want to spend days or even weeks or months looking for the replacement part or trying to find a welder who weld cast iron properly.

I would love to buy American NEW but frankly I equiped my entire shop for same price as an 8" Northfield jointer.

Would I like to have tools made in the US or North America? You bet. But the average Joe can't afford them.

That's the bottom line.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks.......a friendly reminder ......political discussions are not allowed at SMC. That includes international politics.

[Darl Bundren]

Darl, the Clear Vue is still made in the US of A, but not on the east coast any longer. Oregon IIRC. Ed retired and sold the business a few months ago. But it has allowed him to be more active in his shop, and here at the Creek! Jim.

I hope he's doing well--I enjoyed visiting with him.

[Ben Martin]

Ben,

Not everybody has the time, the skill or the desire to restore old machines.

I don't want to learn to pour bearings......I don't want to deal with taking things to a machine shop to have it machined to accept new parts. I don't want to spend days or even weeks or months looking for the replacement part or trying to find a welder who weld cast iron properly.

I would love to buy American NEW but frankly I equiped my entire shop for same price as an 8" Northfield jointer.

Would I like to have tools made in the US or North America? You bet. But the average Joe can't afford them.

That's the bottom line.

Ken,

My shop is mostly outfitted with vintage machines, all of which I have done a bit of tinkering on. That being said, none of them needed the work (except my Unisaw which came home in boxes), I do it for the fun, you have to choose your battles/purchases! I agree that you can't go out right this second and outfit a complete shop like I have, but in the time period of a year you could (assuming you live in reasonable driving distance of a nice size city). I would make the argument that buying a new machine requires more set up time than a used machine (that was owned by a competent previous owner), I have had to remove cosmoline on one machine, a SC mortiser, and that was a nightmare, hope to never have to do that again.

I agree that most people place more intent on restoring the tools more than the actual use of them, but I am sure that there is plenty of example of people on the Creak that buy vintage tools, never touch them and receive plenty of years of service.

Ben, who people say enjoys working more ON his shop, than working IN it...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

You missed my point Ben or I miscommunicated it.

Some people don't have the necessary skills or desire to work on old machines.

I want to work wood not machines. I have been working on machines and electronics for over 40 years. I want to work wood.

To each their own.

[J.R. Rutter]

Go to one of the industrial woodworking shows sometime and you will see lots of high end US made machinery. Down at the consumer or prosumer level, the price tag is a tough sell. A 1:1 scale working model of the original is usually good enough.

[Neil Brooks]

You missed my point Ben or I miscommunicated it.

Some people don't have the necessary skills or desire to work on old machines.

I want to work wood not machines.

Well said.

It's economics -- the allocation of scarce resources.

In my heart, I believe I SHOULD buy old iron, and fix it up.

In my head, though, I know that means I have to cut time from other things -- things that I prioritize.

Ah, yes. If time AND money were unlimited ;-)

[mreza Salav]

This has surprised me as well. I initially assumed that SawStop was made in the US, because of its high price. Or at least assembled in the US. I understand the electronics would be cheaper from Asia, but if a Delta Unisaw costs $3k+ made in the US, why would the SawStop cost $3k+ made in China?

I imagine SawStop could easily charge a tiny bit more and make the saws in the US. That would a double selling point for them. Made in the US, and super safe!


Possible answer: the SawStop guy wants a higher profit margin.

If you enforce your quality and grade control at a plant I don't think the nationality of the people working in the plant has anything to do with the quality of the product coming out. I do not think USA or N.A. made equals good quality always (think auto industry?), although often you get better products made here vs. China.
As for sawstop, I think it is a very well designed cabinet saw (best out there that i have seen) with good quality and implementation. Here is a photo comparison of one of the parts against its competitors:

162406

There was another post in the Grizzly Bashing thread where a poster posted a photo of a powermatic cutter head and compared the bearings against an import machine and said that the photo says it all. That can be said in this instance too, right?

It's not all about the origin of the machine, it's the design and how well it is implemented.

[Neil Brooks]

If you enforce your quality and grade control at a plant I don't think the nationality of the people working in the plant has anything to do with the quality of the product coming out.

As somebody who dealt with offshore manufacturing, I happen to think you're 100% correct.

To make up numbers ... if Company X thought that they could cut their total cost of manufacture by 10% by moving production to Asia, while maintaining strict quality controls, and maintaining defect rates that are no higher than what they saw, with domestic production, they might be tempted to lower the bar, on QC, in order to maintain, say, 25% overall savings, instead.

Most companies that sell a product keep scrupulous track of defect rates (termed any way you want to -- return, refunds, replacements, customer satisfaction indices ... whatever).

It's invariably a business decision -- one which, unfortunately gives inadequate weight to "lifetime value of a customer" -- to decide that higher defect rates are "acceptable," given an increased near-term profitability, arrived at through further cost reductions.

As always, we're partly to blame. As long as we subsidize those business decisions, by continuing to buy products with higher defect rates, we send a message that ... the companies have found just the right sweet spot.

Incidentally, I looked for a star in the East, yesterday, after assembling about my fifth Harbor Freight tool stand, and finding exactly the right number and mix of fasteners, and NOT having even ONE be defective.

Or ... was it all just a dream :p

[Cary Falk]

As for sawstop, I think it is a very well designed cabinet saw (best out there that i have seen) with good quality and implementation. Here is a photo comparison of one of the parts against its competitors:

162406
.

I am not bashing Sawstop but I think this is an unfair comparison. The Sawstop arbor needs to be larger since it is slammed into a chunk of Al in a millisecond. It's like comparing some critical part on a F350 to a F150 truck. The one on the F350 is bigger because it needs to be. Does that make the F150 junk(not a Ford fan but only using as an example)? Not really. It does what it is designed to do.

[Greg R Bradley]

The picture of the spindles is misleading, at best. Was this picture created with the intention of misleading people? I bet most of the other pieces in a Saw Stop would look wimply by comparison to the Unisaw based upon looking at one at the local dealer.
The Powermatic and Delta spindles shown look very strong. If those designs are built with quality materials they look very rugged for the forces you would expect. The Saw Stop spindle has to be much more rugged since they are firing an explosive charge into the blade and the spindle must be able to absorb that force.

[mreza Salav]

Respectfully, I think you are missing my point. I am not saying "why" the bearings or arbors on Sawstop are bigger (you are right in that argument why it should be bigger). I was trying to say you can have well designed machines built overseas that are better than their competitors built here in N.A and partly refute the assumption that the ones built here are beefier/more heavy duty/etc.
BTW, I'm not going to get into argument if unisaw or powermatic is better or not. We can have our different opinions.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

One of my deceased friends was one of the best gunsmiths in the Pacific Northwest.

He was originally a machinist from Wisconsin and moved here to work for Speer when the initially started a bullet company here. He then moved to Mexico for Speer and helped set up their factory there and train local people. When a corporate buyout went down, he left and moved to Alaska where he set up his own machine shop until he retired and moved back to Lewiston. Here he once again setup a gunsmith shop. I met him through a local gun club and later served as his Treasurer when he became President of the club.

Shortly before discovering he had ALS, he built two benchrest rifles for two local shooters. Those two guns and the shooters ended up in the Benchrest nationals that year.

Ron could, indeed, do some great work. He was old enough to be my father and we rode each other's back unmercifully. I miss him.

When he retired, moved back here and set up his gunsmith shop...his lathe, mills etc.....all were made in Taiwan....

He said in plain English "I would love to have US or European made machinery but can't justify it for a hobby." The money he made as a gun smith.....a fine gun smith...paid for his other hobbies.....benchrest shooting...elk and deer hunting.....flying......

The point is and a lot of folks are missing this point.......the company, like Grizzly, just for an example, sets the standards to which their product is manufactured and it's up to them to see those quality specifications are met. There are some really good stuff....like my friend Ron's metal working machines, that are manufactured in Asian countries.

SAWSTOP is made in Taiwan..........and it's considered a fine machine.


On a side note....I had known this guy for 10 years ....I was in his shop regularly....he elk hunted....deer hunted....old enough to be my Dad.....he was teasing me....I hauled off and kicked him in the shins.......He said "Do it again....It didn't hurt a bit"....I kicked him again....."You dummy" he said...he rolled up his pant leg and showed me his artificial leg. In his 30's....having purchased his first airplane......flying that Piper back from Kansas with his flight instructor....they flew into a box canyon trying to find a pass through the mountains.........They crashed...he lower leg was broken and they walked out 9 miles to the nearest highway .....him on his broken leg. Later infection set in and he lost it. It didn't stop him from doing what he wanted for the next 40 years. I miss him.

[Gary Herrmann]

Another plug for General.

To Rod's point, the design may be dated, but the quality and robustness of the tools is fantastic.

If I owned a money tree, I'd fill my shop with Northfields.

[Bill McDermott]

I bit on the Jessem inventory liquidation for a router lift. I practice "buy American" all the time and had to wrestle with the purchase. Still the value prop was compelling (half price, full warranty, not perpetuating the offshore model). Interesting aspects were that they are a Canadian firm that made the decision to not manufacture in Asia. The experiment proved quality was acceptable, but something (patriotism?) brought the jobs back to Canada. It arrived early this week. The packaging differentiated it from domestically built by labelling it as "International Series". Boy, I thought that sounded much better than "Made in China".

[Rod Sheridan]

Another plug for General.

To Rod's point, the design may be dated, but the quality and robustness of the tools is fantastic.

If I owned a money tree, I'd fill my shop with Northfields.

I agree about the quality, as you know I've now disposed of all my General equipment, kind of sad.

I think the lack of development will kill General, which is sad indeed for such a well regarded manufacturer...Rod.

[johnny means]

Ever wonder what an all USA made sub $1000 cabinet saw would be like:rolleyes:. Couple of hundred for materials, couple of hundred more for overhead, then maybe you could use the rest on ten to twelve hours of labor to slap it together.

Sure my numbers are arbitrary, but I think we can get the jist. Quality American made machines at an affordable price point are like dinosaurs, we see their relics, but they are gone forever.

[ed vitanovec]

Woodmaster, they make planer combo's and drum sanders. I think their machines are really nice, I have the 18" planer. Byrd which makes the joint/planer heads.

Regards!
Ed

[Van Huskey]

Woodmaster, they make planer combo's and drum sanders. I think their machines are really nice, I have the 18" planer. Byrd which makes the joint/planer heads.

Regards!
Ed

Excellent example of a product that is top of its class, made in North America, and the price penalty is not as bad as you might expect. The 38" drum will have a place in my new shop.

As for General, their International series is working on development with more features BUT the Canadian made line seems to be grasping the price point they need to actually sell the machines in any volume by leaving them as they have been for quite a while. As far as that goes, look at Northfield they make rather basic machines, legendary in quality but priced in a way only the Pentagon muct order them.

[Alan Schaffter]

As far as accessories-

Woodpeckers, INCRA, Dynabrade - made in USA.

ClearVue has moved to Kent, WA.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

And Williams & Hussey molder planers
And Belsaw?
All in a market only recently pursued by imports- they may not survive. .

[Gary Herrmann]

I think the lack of development will kill General, which is sad indeed for such a well regarded manufacturer...Rod.

That would be sad indeed. I hope you're wrong, but I wonder.

If I had a garage shop, I'd probably go for european combo machines. They're just too big to get down the stairs to my shop.

[Van Huskey]

That would be sad indeed. I hope you're wrong, but I wonder.

If I had a garage shop, I'd probably go for european combo machines. They're just too big to get down the stairs to my shop.

If you trust Rod's word don't bother with Euro machines (see my sig below) and he should know as he owns them... :eek::D:D

[Rod Sheridan]

If you trust Rod's word don't bother with Euro machines (see my sig below) and he should know as he owns them... :eek::D:D

Wiseguy:D.............Rod.

[Bud Millis]

Oneida Duct Collectors are still American made. It must be very difficult for them to compete with Asian made Dust Collectors like Grizzly due to American labor being so much more expensive.

Just my $.02.

PHM

Price and quality wise the Oneida Collectors are a very nice machine. As far as price they are very competive with Asian machines. Quality, I feel, is better. Earlier this week I was at the plant in Syracuse, NY. Overall I was very impressed with their operations.

Side note: I'm in the process of ordering a 3 hp unit from them. They are designing the layout of the duct work.

Buy local and American.

[Paul McGaha]

Bud,

As far as buy American and local I appreciate your point of view.

With a lot of tools though I dont think it can be done anymore. If you need a new planer, jointer, shaper, etc. I dont know that there are any American made choices left with the exception of tools that cost $10K that are simply out of my price range.

Good luck with your dust collector purcahse from Oneida. I installes a 2 HP Dust Gorilla earlier this year.

PHM

[Tom Rick]

Ben,

Not everybody has the time, the skill or the desire to restore old machines.

I don't want to learn to pour bearings......I don't want to deal with taking things to a machine shop to have it machined to accept new parts. I don't want to spend days or even weeks or months looking for the replacement part or trying to find a welder who weld cast iron properly.

I would love to buy American NEW but frankly I equiped my entire shop for same price as an 8" Northfield jointer.

Would I like to have tools made in the US or North America? You bet. But the average Joe can't afford them.

That's the bottom line.

I purchased my "Old Iron" by another tact- I purchased restored tools. What I found was that perfectly/lovingly restored machines go asking for less than the price of the imports. I have a shop full of them. I run a pro shop and did not have the time to do the restorations myself but I sure do love the old tools.

Case in point- My 1944 Unisaw. A perfect as new rebuild with a $500 Biesemeyer fence and a brand new $100 blade- I paid $500 for the package. The saw looks like it came off the showroom floor and cuts like a dream.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Tom

How often do those type of deals come available?

I sincerely doubt there would be enough available to fulfill the needs of everyone we see "gloating" here on the Creek.

It's certainly an alternative.

Here's the deal.

I have major tools in my shop that were manufactured in the US, Italy, Taiwan and yes, China.

[Tom Rick]

Tom

How often do those type of deals come available?

I sincerely doubt there would be enough available to fulfill the needs of everyone we see "gloating" here on the Creek.

It's certainly an alternative.

Here's the deal.

I have major tools in my shop that were manufactured in the US, Italy, Taiwan and yes, China.

Point taken- there clearly is no supply of OWWM's restored by retired machinists that is large enough to meet the entire market need. A guy or shop can take this tack though if it suits them.

[Gary Herrmann]

If you trust Rod's word don't bother with Euro machines (see my sig below) and he should know as he owns them... :eek::D:D


Well, I'm old enough to not blindly trust many people at this point. But I do have General tools and a european bandsaw, so Rod's view seemed to be safe to agree with...





;)

[John Coloccia]

I think one of you guys who wants American made woodworking tools should put together a business plan, scrounge up some funding and build them yourself. You can start by designing a decent drill press, jointer or planer.

...yeah, no one else thinks they can afford to do that either.


:D

[Paul Wunder]

I just bought a Jessem slot mortiser on sale at Woodcraft. I was pleased to find that it was "made in the USA"

[Thomas love]

My machines are a mix of all the aforementioned, what is important is what comes off of them is made here in the good ole USA ;-)

[Mike Ashton]

I work for a manufacture of commercial mechanical equipment (large electrical and HVAC equipment). Manufacturing used to be done in the US, at that time one specific piece of equipment cost around $840 each to build, since the assembly has moved to China that same unit costs about $30 to manufacture.

As for why they cost substantially less, some have started to touch on this. Before anyone gets too upset, this is just the way it is for the company I work for- what I have seen firsthand. First and most obvious is they are paid substantially less. Next, the line workers are rarely skilled tradesmen, rather they simply do as shown and put "A" part to "B" part with "#1" screw and tighten. At first we horribly struggled with quality control (stripped out screws, electrical connections, tolerances were a joke). Engineering slowly rotated from the states through the facility to get them on track and it has gotten much better.

Safety in some cases is non-existent. I've seen things there that we were told specifically we were not allowed to photograph. I would go as far as to say some things were violations of human rights. It's not uncommon there for the workers to put in their shift, then rotate to the eating/sleeping building, then go back to work, not going back to "home". These factories are rarely owned by one company, rather they are contracted to do the work. Which leads to the insane amount of counterfeit equipment on the market, but that's another topic all together.

Unfortunately, for work like this it's just about impossible for an American company to compete. Even if the US worker builds the same unit in half the time and a quarter the warranty costs, they still won't be able to compete. Companies just write off the warranty repairs as the cost of doing business.

[Neil Brooks]

To Mike Ashton's point ....

No. Nothing like OSHA. Nothing like the EPA. AFAIK, no substances are banned, nor are any abusive working conditions discouraged.


I am not a purely "Buy American" kind of guy. I DO, however, think that we should know where our money goes ... wherever we spend it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

This discussion is rapidly becoming political.

This website is open for the entire world to see.

Political discussion or comments are not allowed at SMC as per the TOSs.

Please refrain from such actions.

[Richard Wagner]

I too am a devoted Shopsmith owner and I believe my equipment has lasted for these many years (over 25) because it was manufactured to strict quality standards. Furthermore, those same quality parts are still available to facilitate repair when needed. However, the "Made in the USA" label may no longer be as appropriate as it once was. There are significant parts in today's machine that are from off shore. Is that bad? I don't necessarily believe so, IF they were manufactured to those same quality standards.

[Mike Archambeau]

I fail to understand this obsession with "made in USA" being stamped on something. Even if something is "made" in the United States, the parts and materials are likely sourced from all over the world.

Well it might have something to do with helping to put Americans back to work. 40% of Americans live in poverty now. When people don't have jobs they don't have incomes, and therefore they don't pay income taxes. The federal government spends more than they take in, so they racked up a 14 trillion dollar debt. That kind of federal spending will come to an abrupt end unless of course we find a way to put our countries people back to work. When you buy made-in-usa you helped put one of your neighbors back to work..............and maybe helped a little bit in putting your country back on a solid financial footing........

[Alan Schaffter]

Well it might have something to do with . . . . Political post that is factually incorrect.

[John Coloccia]

Well, here we are over a year later, and I've given up on Made In USA. I won't get anything done if I hold out for that. Instead, I settle for "not Made In China". To that end, I had to drive from Home Depot and Lowes down to my local Grainger in Hartford to find a short extension cord NOT made in China. It's made in Indonesia. It only cost a few bucks more. It's seems to be much higher quality.

If there was a Made In USA cord available, I would have bought it. You can't buy what doesn't exist. C'est la vie.

[lloyd anderson]

I think there are places where USA built can compete, like this http://www.serioustoolworks.com/. Unfortuntely it will be in the rarified niche world. But hey, if you have that kind of money....

[Ronald Blue]

Two American made extension cords are Safe-T-Lite and Coleman. Unless I am misinformed.

[Kevin W Johnson]

Political post that is factually incorrect.


Really? So buying American made goods doesn't employ Americans?

[Steve Griffin]

My machines are a mix of all the aforementioned, what is important is what comes off of them is made here in the good ole USA ;-)

3 cheers for this post.

THanks to affordable machinery, I was able to start my business on a shoestring and have been making stuff for 13 years which is "made in america".

If the "buy in america" only fanatics had their way, I doubt I could have pulled it off.

[Alan Schaffter]

Really? So buying American made goods doesn't employ Americans?

My statement applied to a specific post.

As to this entire thread, it has avoided any discussion of the "global economy." Its not just "Us" and "them" anymore. Many, many companies are multi-national. Many "foreign" companies are wholly or partially owned by US banks, investors, companies, etc. and many "US companies" are partially or wholly foreign owned. This topic is much more complex than touched on here by sound bites and random statistics.

[John Coloccia]

3 cheers for this post.

THanks to affordable machinery, I was able to start my business on a shoestring and have been making stuff for 13 years which is "made in america".

If the "buy in america" only fanatics had their way, I doubt I could have pulled it off.

I see. "Fanatics" who like to support local businesses somehow impact your ability to source your shop from China, Madagascar or anywhere else you want? Please don't say anyone is trying to ban imports because I re-read the entire thread and I see nothing like that, though I admit I may have glossed over it.

You know, I just find it strange that there are people that put others down for no reason other than they're trying to support their own country. As far as I can tell, that only happens in the USA and it's collective social sickness IMHO.

As I've said previously, though, I've given up on trying for all Made in the USA because I'd never get anything done. Ever since I've started sourcing from Canada, USA, Europe, and even India though, I pay a little more but the quality is FAR better almost across the board, my work is better, and I spend far less time struggling and fighting poor, unreliable tools.

[Alan Schaffter]

Yep, I know. And I'm referring to your post specifically. You called his entire post "factually incorrect".Puttin' words in my mouth- didn't say his "entire" post was factually incorrect. But most of it was.



Without arguement, I'd say the following is indeed correct:Gotta "argue with that too"



"When people don't have jobs they don't have incomes, and therefore they don't pay income taxes."I don't have a job, but have income, and pay taxes.


"When you buy made-in-usa you helped put one of your neighbors back to work"Not true in many cases. Many examples but here is one- a company may be able to assemble 10,000 widgets with the same labor force as it takes to produce 20,000 widgets. What if some components come from offshore, in that case buying made-in-usa may theoretically result more foreign workers being hired by a foreign factory!


"The federal government spends more than they take in, so they racked up a 14 trillion dollar debt"Just a sound bite that is only partially true. How does the Fed deficit affect employment (don't waste your time answering, too complex)? But where do you suppose the money spent by the Fed goes? Much of it goes back into US pockets for goods, services, and social programs- security (military), harbor, highway, etc. maint, Social Security, Medicare, etc. etc., etc., etc.! Why do you suppose the economy has always been strongest when the Fed is over-spending outrageously during war!


As for "40% of Americans live in poverty now." Yeah, he missed that one, it's not 40%, it's 46+ million and rising.If you accept the definition and number it is more like 15%. But you can Google all day and still not find "universally accepted definitions and data." Just look at some of the terms used by the Government and other organizations: Absolute poverty threshold, relative poverty threshold, Annual poverty rate, Survey of Income and Program Participation (SIPP), Average monthly poverty, Chronic or long-term poverty, Cross-sectional survey data, Entrance rate, Episodic poverty, Equivalence scale, Federal Poverty Level (FPL), Gini ratio, Income deficit/income surplus, Income surplus, Income-to-poverty ratio, Longitudinal survey data, Long-term poverty, Monthly poverty, Poverty areas, Poverty in the past 12 months, Poverty rate, Poverty spell, Poverty thresholds, Poverty universe, Ratio of income to poverty, Relative poverty thresholds, Small Area Income and Poverty Estimates, Working poor, and the list goes on!

As I said in another post, the issue is too complex to be completely and intelligently analyzed and discussed in a WW forum, and certainly can't be solved by sound bites!

[Ruel Smith]

This is a fallacy... Economics 101: A good or service will sell in the market for whatever the market will bear, regardless of the cost to produce. If a table saw costs $1000 to produce, or $2000, if they can get you to pay $3500, they will. Affordable machines have just about always been there, even when everything was made in the USA. They just have lower QC, not as well designed, etc.. Believe me, if Grizzly could command Powermatic prices, they would. Powermatic is still sky high, even though it's made in either China or Taiwan, and they're not getting any cheaper. They didn't drop the price of Powermatic when it switched production offshore, either.

Another element is the cost of raw goods. The cost of oil, copper, steel and just about all raw goods has skyrocketed, mostly because of the new demand of the rising Chinese market for them. Bringing production back to the US will subdue the cost of raw goods, somewhat, and lower the cost to produce.

[Halgeir Wold]

While I really should leave this thread alone, and to all you US guys, there is some points that have hardly been mentioned.
I think most of us can see the point i "Buy Local", whatever that may be, but that is unfortunately a point of little relevance in todays world.

I work in the electronic business, - design and service. Been with the same company all my professional life, since 1975. When I started out as a greenhorn engineer, most quality instruments were "Made in USA". Companies like Hewlett-Packard, Tectronix, General Radio etc. were the more common brands on our service desks. Semiconductors too were mostly made by Texas Instruments, National Semiconductor, Analog Devices, Burr Brown etc.etc. Mostly all-american. made.......
Come 1980 or so, the labels on the instruments and component bags changed. They all started to read "Made in Singapore, -Taiwan, Indonesia, Korea" and so on. And this was in the 80's. Why is that? one may think....

The pricipal mechanics af all shareholding companies are to make profit for the owners. That's nothing new, and I think we all accept that. What has changed dramatically, is the personality of ownership. While up until the 80's, minor shareholders were strong in the markets, accepting their 2-4% dividend and a genuine knowledge of ownership. Todays shareholders are mostly consortiums and investment companies, whose only aim seems to be " Get in - get the doe- get out".
If the goal of 15% annual profit shows to be only 10%, the saying isn't "We only made 10% this year", No - it is "We lost 5%!. This is totally unacceptable!" " Let's get out and dump this S**t!". The Gordon Gekkos of the modern world are for real! You americans, of all, should really know that!? Year 2008 ring any bells?

While I would love to get my hands of some of the machines and tools you can get, mostly non-US made, I cannot, for obvious reasons. Well - to a small extent I can, but then the price of the Jet this-or-that have almost tripled when it gets over here. Go figure.... I used to build loudspeakersand amps - a real HiFi buff :-). US based Madisound retails Norwegian made Seas loudspeaker elements at rougly 60% of our local retail prices... go figure....

Dear friends and members of the Creek - this is just our beloved market economy at work - no more - no less." One's death - another mans bread" goes a saying over here. As I slowly become of age, me thinks that Mr. Friedman needs a solid revision!

EDIT: I forgot to mention, that of all the still US registered instrument and semiconductor companies, I doubt that there are any left that actually have any production left in domestic US.

[Jared McMahon]

As far as the original question goes, I'm not sure how much more can be said. I'm generally a hand tool person so I have very solid default vendors to run to like Lie-Nielsen, Wenzloff and Lee Valley (Canadians are our kissin' cousins).

To the larger discussion, and I hope this stays solidly in the realm of economics and not politics, there was a recent NPR story about Apple's manufacturing processes and it raised some excellent points about the resources available in China and the economies of scale. It really muddied the waters for me in terms of how manufacturing items in China keeps price point down, there are an awful lot of variables in play.

To the Grizzly discussion, I admit I'm somewhat biased towards them. I live only an hour or so south of their Bellingham, WA facility so I consider them kinda-sorta local. That's also why I consider Canada as effectively "local"; if I break speed limits, I can be at the border in around an hour.

[Mike Archambeau]

Yep, I know. And I'm referring to your post specifically. You called his entire post "factually incorrect". Without arguement, I'd say the following is indeed correct:

"Well it might have something to do with helping to put Americans back to work"
"When people don't have jobs they don't have incomes, and therefore they don't pay income taxes."
"When you buy made-in-usa you helped put one of your neighbors back to work"
"The federal government spends more than they take in, so they racked up a 14 trillion dollar debt"

As for "40% of Americans live in poverty now." Yeah, he missed that one, it's not 40%, it's 46+ million and rising.

U.S. Poverty: Census Finds Nearly Half Of Americans Are Poor Or Low-Income

"Squeezed by rising living costs, a record number of Americans – nearly 1 in 2 – have fallen into poverty or are scraping by on earnings that classify them as low income.The latest census data depict a middle class that's shrinking as unemployment stays high and the government's safety net frays. The new numbers follow years of stagnating wages for the middle class that have hurt millions of workers and families.

About 97.3 million Americans fall into a low-income category, commonly defined as those earning between 100 and 199 percent of the poverty level, based on a new supplemental measure by the Census Bureau that is designed to provide a fuller picture of poverty. Together with the 49.1 million who fall below the poverty line and are counted as poor, they number 146.4 million, or 48 percent of the U.S. population. That's up by 4 million from 2009, the earliest numbers for the newly developed poverty measure."

The complete analysis can be read here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/15/census-shows-1-in-2-peopl_1_n_1150128.html

I am neither poor or low income and am eternally grateful for that. But it troubles me that so many of our fellow citizens are poor or low income. The magnitude of the problem is almost ovewhelming but believe me there are a lot of people who would benefit from the job they would get if you spent your hard earned money on made-in-usa..............you could change the course of things begining with your next purchase......now I need to read my youngster a story before we tuck him in for the night, and we will hope his future is brighter than the one that a lot of youngsters will face if we don't fix this situation......

[Kevin W Johnson]

U.S. Poverty: Census Finds Nearly Half Of Americans Are Poor Or Low-Income

"Squeezed by rising living costs, a record number of Americans – nearly 1 in 2 – have fallen into poverty or are scraping by on earnings that classify them as low income.The latest census data depict a middle class that's shrinking as unemployment stays high and the government's safety net frays. The new numbers follow years of stagnating wages for the middle class that have hurt millions of workers and families.

About 97.3 million Americans fall into a low-income category, commonly defined as those earning between 100 and 199 percent of the poverty level, based on a new supplemental measure by the Census Bureau that is designed to provide a fuller picture of poverty. Together with the 49.1 million who fall below the poverty line and are counted as poor, they number 146.4 million, or 48 percent of the U.S. population. That's up by 4 million from 2009, the earliest numbers for the newly developed poverty measure."

The complete analysis can be read here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/15/census-shows-1-in-2-peopl_1_n_1150128.html

I am neither poor or low income and am eternally grateful for that. But it troubles me that so many of our fellow citizens are poor or low income. The magnitude of the problem is almost ovewhelming but believe me there are a lot of people who would benefit from the job they would get if you spent your hard earned money on made-in-usa..............you could change the course of things begining with your next purchase......now I need to read my youngster a story before we tuck him in for the night, and we will hope his future is brighter than the one that a lot of youngsters will face if we don't fix this situation......

I don't disagree with you, Alan was calling your post "factually incorrect", which is what i disagree with. There is a difference in poverty and low income, I was merely pointing out the poverty numbers, which is mid-upper 40 millions (46-49, depending on what you read) add that to low income, and yes it's a very large number. But again I was commenting based on your use of "poverty" and the fact that your original comment didn't include low income.


Again, I agree with you.

Made in USA needs to be in the front of peoples minds. It's harder to find these days, but every time we can make that choice, it helps our fellow neighbors, whether they be next door, or states away. Not everyone is college bound, not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, etc, etc. Manufacturing jobs mean decent wages for people that would otherwise be stuck at the likes of Walmart, etc. As a country we have been replacing high/good paying manufacturing jobs, with low paying retail service jobs at alarming rates, and there's nothing positive to say for that.

[Kevin W Johnson]

3 cheers for this post.

THanks to affordable machinery, I was able to start my business on a shoestring and have been making stuff for 13 years which is "made in america".

If the "buy in america" only fanatics had their way, I doubt I could have pulled it off.

Congrats, your products you produce are "made in America", if there were no "made in america", "fanatics" as you put it, Who would buy your product?

[Neil Brooks]

The floor is starting to tilt, and get a might slippery.

Meaning ... this thread really could be going downhill :(

[Van Huskey]

I am all too willing to argue about pretty much anything BUT this thread has lived a long useful life, lets try to make sure it doesn't become a tit for tat argument that precludes the usefulness of the thread.

Disagree about the quality of Asian sourced machines or the superiority of those built in Europe or why 70 year old US built machines are the best thing since sliced bread... There is plenty of meat on those bones!

[Jeff Duncan]

Nice try Van, but this thread has gone way off the deep end. Truthfully I'm usually in favor of the mods giving us some leeway in these discussions, unfortunately you can have a few people who want to turn it into a political pissing match and ruin the thread for the rest of us.

I'm happy to start comparing the older US made stuff to the older Euro stuff to whatever....but I think it's too late for this thread.....RIP

JeffD

[Van Huskey]

Nice try Van, but this thread has gone way off the deep end. Truthfully I'm usually in favor of the mods giving us some leeway in these discussions, unfortunately you can have a few people who want to turn it into a political pissing match and ruin the thread for the rest of us.

I'm happy to start comparing the older US made stuff to the older Euro stuff to whatever....but I think it's too late for this thread.....RIP

JeffD

I hear Martin makes some superior machines but they really dropped the ball on their shapers. From what I can tell a restored Delta HD shaper is better than anything Martin made! :D

[Jeff Duncan]

Oh no....your not going suck me in on that one:p