How to remove epoxy squeezeout from wood?

[Alan Lightstone]

I've got a teak table top I'm about to glue up. As I've heard that teak can be a bear to glue, I'm planning on using West System 3 epoxy.

How do I remove the inevitable squeezeout from the surface of the wood before drying? Is acetone the answer? Will that weaken the joint by going into the wood? Another method?

[Marty Paulus]

Alan,

Acetone is the answer. You should be wiping down the teak with acetone before you glue/epoxy the pieces anyway. Teak is a very oily wood.

Check with West Systems Epoxy web site. They have a ton of information there.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/clean-up-removing

[Mitchell Andrus]

You can also run a strip of tape at the edge so the glue runs on the tape's surface, not on the wood.
.

[Alan Lightstone]

You can also run a strip of tape at the edge so the glue runs on the tape's surface, not on the wood.
.
Wouldn't the clamps prevent removal until the tape was epoxied to the surface of the wood?

Sounds like an interesting idea. Just can't figure out how to make it work.

And I'm off the the BORG for Acetone...

[Mike Cutler]

Alan

I use epoxy almost exclusively, for all joints I do. This is how I deal with it.

If I know the glue up will be further machined or sanded, I don't worry too musc and just wipe it as I go.
If the material is already dimensioned and I don't expect any further work, except maybe a final sanding prior to finishing, I use blue painters tape along the glue line, and let the epoxy squeeze out onto the tape. (Use good quality tape for adhesion. That cheap stuff will allow the epoxy to get underneath.)

However, you shouldn't have very much squeezeout to begin with. Epoxy doesn't require lots of clamping pressure, like yellow glue. Use only enough pressure to bring the joint together, and let the epoxy do it's work. Using excessive pressure will squeeze too much epoxy out and leave you with a starved joint.
Tape the joint line, and lightly coat both pieces of material to be joined. Then clamp.

If you have a complicated glue up, that may require additional time for alignment, place your cup of epoxy in a bowl of ice and water. This will keep the heat from deveoping and cooking off your epoxy in the cup.
Once the epoxy is actually brushed onto the material, you have quite a bit of time. More time than you realize. The charts in the back of the System Three booklet have the relevant info.
Pick the epoxy hardner based on the temperatures in the shop to be expected during the curing phase. Don't indiscriminately go with the slow hardner for time if the temps will drop below the values in System Three's booklet.
Leave that joint undisturbed for at least 24 hours. System Three's book will tell you that overnite is sufficient, but then later on amplify this with post material stress considerations on the joint. The longer the better.

[Prashun Patel]

If it's a panel glue up, I'd just let it squeeze out. When it starts to set - for the T88 product it's about 45 minutes, then just use an old putty knife to take off the majority of the epoxy.

Once hard - wait at least 12 hours, it'll sand flush fine with a ROS.

[Rick Pettit]

If you have already bought your epoxy this doesn't matter, but you can use plastic resin glue. Made a riser block for my trolling motor on my boat and used it. Been on the boat for almost 10 years. It's on the deck uncovered exsposed to all of the elements.

[Alan Lightstone]

Great info guys. Can't wait to get this bad boy glued up.

Fortunately not a complicated glue up, just a panel. Don't plan on further machining except for a final ROS go.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Mike. I just couldn't get my head around that one. I've done similar with Titebond glue and tape, but I have had issues with the tape getting glued to the board.

Already have the System 3, Rick. Out of curiosity, which plastic resin glue are you referring to?

[Mike Cutler]

Alan
The really cheap tape will allow the epoxy to get underneath. The higher quality stuff, 3M, is better. This combined with a light wiping of Acetone, alcohol, or lacquer thinner should keep the problem to a minimum.
I think Rick is referring to Dap Plastic Resin? maybe.

[Will Blick]

Mike, I am curious, why do you use Epoxy exclusively?
You never use wood glue?

I just started working with the West styem, and see some major advantages, mainly with joints which are not single surfaced (like edge to edge glue up). Also, multi sided joints can't get clamp pressure from all sides, (M&T the most obvious). So in these cases, or when total glue surface area is just too great to achieve 200 psi... (not enough clamps, or space to place the clamps)...

But for other applications that are straight forward, you still use Epoxy?

[russell lusthaus]

I always used plain old (white) vinegar to wipe up epoxy squeeze out. I would suggest calling West Systems tech support and asking them.

Also, in place of the blue painters tape, you could use wax, but that may present other finishing problems if you want to go brite.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike, I am curious, why do you use Epoxy exclusively?
You never use wood glue?

I just started working with the West styem, and see some major advantages, mainly with joints which are not single surfaced (like edge to edge glue up). Also, multi sided joints can't get clamp pressure from all sides, (M&T the most obvious). So in these cases, or when total glue surface area is just too great to achieve 200 psi... (not enough clamps, or space to place the clamps)...

But for other applications that are straight forward, you still use Epoxy?

Will

It's really a personal preference. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Titebond, it's a great product, and I do use it. I have 3 types of titebond.

Like most wood workers, hobbiest, I work alone in a space limited environment which does not always facilitate laying out clamps and such and prepping the area for a glue up. So, I use epoxy because it gives me a longer open(pot) time, and a virtually unlimited working time to get any and all clamps just right and pieces aligned.
The clamping pressure and gap filling properties also make large panel glueups easier for me. Even though I have a wall full of Bow Clamps, and do use them on panel glueups, all I have to do is bring the individual pieces together and the epoxy does it's thing.

I just did a laminated glueup. Not having to stress about glue setting up allowed me to roll out the epoxy on the 14 laminated faces, 8 layers, that needed to be prepped and glued, and get them onto the bending form with zero stress.

Lastly, I used to work in boatyard repairing boats, fiberglass and such. So, epoxy is almost second nature to me.

[Charles Goodnight]

On the few occasions I have used epoxy I just wait until it is mostly set, but still a bit soft and scrape it off with a scraper. I usually take a shaving of wood off two which removes all trace of the squeeze out.

[Will Blick]

Thx Mike for nice response.....

Do you use the epoxy for all types of laminates, or just wood laminates?
Is there applications where you prefer NOT to use the Epoxy?

BTW, your logic makes perfect sense to me, I too start getting stressed out about open time, as I work alone often...

[Rick Pettit]

I am talking about plastic resin glue made by dap. You'll have over an hour of working time if you want and the stuff is hard as nails. Also for you guys that buy west marine check out boat builder central. They have epoxy that I use all of the time for boat building. It is cheaper and just as good. No amine blush.

[Mike Cutler]

Thx Mike for nice response.....

Do you use the epoxy for all types of laminates, or just wood laminates?
Is there applications where you prefer NOT to use the Epoxy?

BTW, your logic makes perfect sense to me, I too start getting stressed out about open time, as I work alone often...

Will
I can't think of a situation I wouldn't use epoxy for. The times I use Titebond are when it's convenient and the glueup is easily managed.
I just had to make table legs for a project I'm doing. Each leg "blank" is 32" long,5 1/2" wide and 1 1/2" thick. Because the legs have to support themselves, they are 2 pieces, face glued, with the grains opposing each other.
16 material pieces laid out on a table faces up is a lot of surface area. I mixed up 1 1/2" cups of epoxy, rolled it on each face with a 3" foam paint roller, matched them up, aligned them, stacked them in two stacks with wax paper between each leg blank and used 4 clamps with 2 Bow Clamps on top of each stack to glue them. Probably took a 1/2 hour to get everything set properly and clamp. Epoxy makes this very easy for a person working alone.

Plastic Resin and Hide Glue can give you the same working times, and are usually less $$ than epoxy. Hide glue is particurally advantageous, because of it's ability to be repaired. Something to consider for really fine pieces.

[Tom Rick]

Mike- horses for courses...

I do yacht carpentry in my business and can think of plenty of times when I will not use epoxy. It is a very rigid clue joint and will fail if the wood moves much. In West System literature users are directed to use cold molded techniques for epoxy glue ups where the entire work piece is encapsulated to protect from excessive stress on the joint. I avoid epoxies for any sort of timber joint ups with even moderate cross sections of wood- >~1/2". For my work I use Titebond III in glue ups or bed joints in flexible sealants for larger work.
It is a learning process still for me but cracked joints a common where epoxies are used in the wrong application.

I am with you on stress of clue ups though. I just finished an 90' rail clue up with some 500 lf. of clue line. The work had to be jigged to the boat and was done in the sun. A real race to keep the joints from skimming over as I worked..... It was a toss up. I probably could have used epoxy but with the sticks 7/8"x1.25" it was over what I want to glue with epoxies when I cannot insure that the wood will remain protected by finishes over its service life.

[Kent A Bathurst]

".........virtually unlimited working time to get any and all clamps just right and pieces aligned......

Mike - Zero experience with epoxy, but I'm certainly listening.

Educate me, if you don't mind - how is it that the work time is so long? It doesn't set up when applied to a surface, but does when the parts are assembled? How do it know to do that? I'm a T-III guy, and that glue ain't nearly so smart.

confused in Atlanta................

[Tom Rick]

Mike - Zero experience with epoxy, but I'm certainly listening.

Educate me, if you don't mind - how is it that the work time is so long? It doesn't set up when applied to a surface, but does when the parts are assembled? How do it know to do that? I'm a T-III guy, and that glue ain't nearly so smart.

confused in Atlanta................

Epoxies are thermoset plastics.

They cure when the two components are mixed together and have highly variable cure rates. The cure rates are designed per application and can run from seconds out to practically infinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosetting_polymer

[Tony Bilello]

..... how is it that the work time is so long? It doesn't set up when applied to a surface, but does when the parts are assembled? .....
confused in Atlanta................
Epoxy has a working life like any other adhesive. Epoxy comes with 2 components - a resin and a hardener. The better epoxy manufacturers have hardeners for all sorts of occasions. One of the occasions is ambient or surrounding air temperatures. So epoxy manufacturers make the hardeners for hot weather and some hardeners for cold temperature and all temps in between. They each have a chart giving their working time based on temperature. So if you want a long working life you will use a 'slow' hardener, if it's cold in your shop and you want the epoxy to kick off quicker you would use a fast hardener.
I hope that answers your question. I have been using epoxy for a very long time, but only when necessary. Most of the time I use titebond.

BTW, alcohol cleans up epoxy better than acetone or lacquer thinner.

[Will Blick]

thx again for the great responses... those of us stuck on wood glues are really benefitting from your experiences. This has become a very informative thread regarding glue choices that many of us need some more education on. A few more quesitons if you all would be so kind....


I am using the West G Flex 655 quarts... This is what West tech support suggest for gluing fir / maple together. I feel the process of scooping out the two parts and mixing them is quite "hit or miss"... How do you get equal amounts of both? I am using a wooden paint stick and judging it... Tech support claims within 10% is fine, not even sure I am achieving that. I notice that West sells a scale, do you weigh the two parts before mixing?

Also, I bought, but have not used the WEST caulk tube Epoxy, which is a nice way to assure equal mixing... any experience with this? When to use, not use?


> In West System literature users are directed to use cold molded techniques for epoxy glue ups where the entire work piece is encapsulated to protect from excessive stress on the joint.


Tom, can you please define this a bit better. Would a M&T joint fit this category? And what is "cold molded" technique?


Also, is there an application where plastic resin glue is the preferred choice over Epoxy....obvioulsy both have long open times, but is there an applicaiton where the Plastic resin is superior to Epoxy? Or does it only come down to cost?

Good tip on the alcohol!!!

TYIA

[Mike Cutler]

Tom Rick

I was pretty much limiting my response to using epoxy as an alternative for Titebond for furniture/home type projects.

Boats are completely different than furniture projects. It might still be wood, but that sideboard isn't pitching, rolling and yawing in the full sun and rain, and there shouldn't be anywhere near the joint stress from environmental changes. as on a boat. IN your line of work you have a lot more variables to consider and try to control

Kent

Epoxies, as Tom pointed out, are thermoset adhesive. They cure by means of exothermic reaction, in other word, heat. Control the heat, and you control the cure.
Unlike fiberglass resin, which uses a catalyst, epoxy uses a hardener. A specified ratio of hardener to resin is required. Too much of either, outside manufacturers limits and the cure can be messed up.
If epoxy is applied to two surface, and the surfaces are brought together and clamped, heat builds up due to the reaction between resin and hardener, and the epoxy then sets.
If you mix an amount of epoxy, say 3 total ounces, and confine it in an 8 oz. cup. That mixture will heat up to the point of it being uncomfortable to hold.
Take that same amount, mix it in the cup and pour it on a plate and it will take a lot longer to heat up due to the increased surface area and cure.
Take the mixture from the cup, pour it on the plate, and set the plate on a bed of ice and the working time is really extended.
Why would you do this? To allows you to use the correct hardener, based on ambient temperature, and extend the working time of the pot, while maintaining the cure time.

Will
I''ve used epoxy on quite a few M&T Joints. Just like Titebond, you have to be aware of the tenon width. Too wide and you risk failure. Ergo, it would have to be divided.

This probably the single best source of info for glues/adhesives I know of.
I'm fairly certain Bob has forgotten more info on the subject than most folks ever needed to know.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent

Epoxies, as Tom pointed out, are thermoset adhesive. They cure by means of exothermic reaction, in other word, heat. Control the heat, and you control the cure.
Unlike fiberglass resin, which uses a catalyst, epoxy uses a hardener. A specified ratio of hardener to resin is required. Too much of either, outside manufacturers limits and the cure can be messed up.
If epoxy is applied to two surface, and the surfaces are brought together and clamped, heat builds up due to the reaction between resin and hardener, and the epoxy then sets.
If you mix an amount of epoxy, say 3 total ounces, and confine it in an 8 oz. cup. That mixture will heat up to the point of it being uncomfortable to hold.
Take that same amount, mix it in the cup and pour it on a plate and it will take a lot longer to heat up due to the increased surface area and cure.
Take the mixture from the cup, pour it on the plate, and set the plate on a bed of ice and the working time is really extended.
Why would you do this? To allows you to use the correct hardener, based on ambient temperature, and extend the working time of the pot, while maintaining the cure time.

Gotcha. I knew the exotherm part - it is your explanation of application to both surfaces and bringing them together to kick it over that clicked. And then, the part about mix-plate-ice really dialed it in - use the correct hardener for ambient temp, and use the plate and ice for slow operator. Thanks for the excellent street-language explanation. I know you are capabale of all of the physics behind not only that, but probably everything else there is.

In Sum: Epoxy ain't smarter than T-III. Mike is smarter than Kent.

Suspiscions confirmed. Again. I LOVE that Carter ETG, BTW. Find the indicator # that works for a given combo of species, height, and blade width, and it returns me right to "Go" each time.

Gratzi.

[Alan Lightstone]

Would acetone - let it evaporate, then denatured alcohol be better still, or overkill.

BTW, Titebond, on their website, says that Titebond III is ok with teak. Best if you glue a freshly jointed joint, or second best -- immediately after application of acetone.

[Mike Cutler]

Kent

Believe me, I'm no smarter than anyone else.
I just think I graduated with honors from the college of trial and error.:o

I'm glad the Carter ETG is working. That is one very nice device.
Someday if I get enough time I'll put together all of the research and testing results I have on bandsaw tension meters and post them. It all reads like an engineering white paper right now. Very dry stuff. Lots of data tables, physical and dimensional measurements, and testing procedure.

Alan

I don't see why a combo of the two shouldn't work. I'm no chemist though.
Tape the joints, wipe the excess, and you're issues should be minimized.
Depending on your finish, any left over residue may be invisible.

[bill mullin]

Epoxy has a working life like any other adhesive. Epoxy comes with 2 components - a resin and a hardener. The better epoxy manufacturers have hardeners for all sorts of occasions. One of the occasions is ambient or surrounding air temperatures. So epoxy manufacturers make the hardeners for hot weather and some hardeners for cold temperature and all temps in between. They each have a chart giving their working time based on temperature. So if you want a long working life you will use a 'slow' hardener, if it's cold in your shop and you want the epoxy to kick off quicker you would use a fast hardener.
I hope that answers your question. I have been using epoxy for a very long time, but only when necessary. Most of the time I use titebond.

BTW, alcohol cleans up epoxy better than acetone or lacquer thinner.

I have used alcohol (isopropyl) for years to remove excess epoxy when
building model airplanes.
I have no idea if West Systems responds the same.