Grizzly Bashing!

[Robert foster]

It seems odd to me that many who do not have Grizzly tools find that they are not up to the standards of "American" tools. I have been reluctant to buy Grizzly because of this mind set. I recently purchased a G0454Z and G0602.
The only problem I have had (other than small scrapes) has been with the US carriers who "delivered" it. I paid freight+ liftgate service. My G0454 was put on the ground 40' from where I needed it to get it into my shop. My 71 year old wife and I worked several hours to get into the shop by pulling it in short distances with my pickup and a comealong in the rain. In the process of US delivery they tore up my drive and yard. I have yet to receive word from the local terminal though the national customer service lady has been very sympathetic she can't help me directly.
The G0602 came about a week later but they wouldn't even come to my residence. I had to meet the driver just off the highway and transfer it to my pickup there.
I have looked at General and Powermatic at Woodsmith and it seemed that the main parts looked exactly the same.
I am very pleased with my Grizzly products and am happy to have the choice that Grizzly offers. I can't afford the prestigious products.

Thanks Shiraz

Bob

[Mike Cruz]

Yeah, I have heard many a story about the delivery/shipping people not being up to par.

Grizzly itself has done well by me. I'm a fan.

[Van Huskey]

Am I missing something... like deleted threads during the day? If anything this forum is a serious love-fest for Grizzly. Sure a few have had a bad experience but thats true with every manufacturer but they provide darn good value and most here recognize it. In my opinion they rarely have the best machine BUT they almost ALWAYS have the best price/value balance for machines that perform well enough for most of us.

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I probably would not have a single tool with Grizzly on it in a year, then again I would not be wearing a "junk" watch like a Rolex either... :D

[David Weaver]

General and powermatic aren't good comparisons in terms of hobbyist level tools, they aren't exactly "american", either.

Most of the importers (Grizzly, Delta, Powermatic, Jet, General International, etc) can make tools that are fine for hobbyists, some of them aren't so great (not the manufacturer in general, but specific tools), and if you order enough, you'll get one that leaves you feeling like "wow, they shouldn't have put their brand on this".

When you start getting into the high end tools, like sliding tablesaws, there is clearly still a difference - at least there was two years ago when I was at IWF. One needs only to spend 10 minutes at the importers' booths and ten minutes at the martin booth to see that it isn't just marketing hype. There's a price difference, too, it's usually there for a reason.

My delta hybrid TS (china) is one of the more uninspiring efforts I've ever seen with several things that are barely inside spec now and are out of what spec used to be with american manufacturers, but I'm pleased with my Jet bandsaw (taiwan). Most of us guys who have a little snipe when claims are made have gotten a couple of bum tools, either bum design, or bum execution.

Also, it pays to know your liftgate freight guy. Every tool I've ordered has been dropped off in my garage, as well as a piece of liftgate equipment. I grease my delivery guy a little and he puts whatever it is within a couple of inches of where I want the pallet.

[Justin Bukoski]

Robert, I think I know where you are coming from and I agree its a dated mentality. Frankly I'm not sure American=quality the way it did in the 50s and 60s. Some American = quality but there are some great tools coming out of Asia these days. The new Unisaw for instance is a great tool but so is the PM2000. The only thing I can say is that most (not all) of the European stuff has maintained a high level of quality but you pay for it.

IMO, what Shiraz has done is open up power tool woodworking to a group of people that could have never afforded it in the past. Not just by offering quality tools at an affordable price but also by forcing others to do the same. I've owned grizzly tools in the past and found them to be great value. I've also owned European equipment and found it to be superior but expensive. IMO, Grizzly is the Toyota Camry of the woodworking world - affordable, solid, good value. You buy a Mercedes if you have money to burn but you won't be sorry for driving the Camry.

I don't currently have any Griz in my shop but its always the first place I go when evaluating new tools. Glad you are happy with your purchase.

[Myk Rian]

I had a Jet 6" jointer, and bought a Griz 8" to replace it.
The fit and finish of the Griz is no where near the quality of the Jet.
I'm looking for an old iron jointer so I can get the Griz out of my shop.
Personally, I don't feel the attraction to Griz tools.

[Stephen Cherry]

I had a Jet 6" jointer, and bought a Griz 8" to replace it.
The fit and finish of the Griz is no where near the quality of the Jet.
I'm looking for an old iron jointer so I can get the Griz out of my shop.
Personally, I don't feel the attraction to Griz tools.


I've got an older 12" tiawanese griz jointer, weighs a ton (figuratively), and the boards come out flat.

Plus, I have a strong suspicion that I could actually buy parts for it, you may not be able to say this for the European manufacturers (but that's another story).

But look at the Grizzly catalog. To talk about a girzzly jointer is difficult because they have models from pretty cheap to pretty high end. The biggest jointers are still made in Tiawan, and the cheap ones are now made in China and are probably cheaper than they were 20 years ago.

Of course there are the martins, and other european manufacturers, and for some they may represent good value; but for many more, grizzly gives a good value for an amount of money that is within the realm of possibility, and they stand behind their tools. I think that it is safe to say that they took on their competition, and basically out competed them.

[Karl Card]

Well i started to post a message here and then decided that i really didnt know what to say.
Then I thought long and hard and decided that I had to say something with a little significance to it. That would be that anybody and everybody has only 1 person they have to please (excluding spouses) and that is yourself.
So far I have not had any creeker come out and tell me my stuff is junk, I have had a few to tell me that if I can get this or that for ??? price that I would be better off but that is not bad that is good company trying to take care of a fellow creeker. A person also has to understand that not everyone on here does this for a living etc... Shoot I am not saying anything that hasnt already been said so Ill shut up..

[glenn bradley]

There is a price to be paid for living out of the city a bit and breathing actual air and not bumping into your neighbor at the mailboxes. Having the delivery guy back the tractor trailer right into your driveway and set the delivery right in the garage is one of them.

I feel for folks who have adverse delivery conditions (not to mention Buford and Cletis hauling for the last mile or so). But, then I step out my front door, trip over my neighbor, apologize while chewing my air and I don't feel so bad for them any more. I guess it all balances out in the end ;-)

[John Coloccia]

My shop has all the hot button items... Grizzly, SawStop, Lie-Neilsen, etc. I've only got one thing to say: Why is it that so many people care about what tools I have in my shop?

That is all.

edit: I'm almost afraid to tell you guys about he Macbook Pro I'm typing this on. That's a whole other level of controversy :D

[Will Overton]

I can't decide on a color scheme for my shop.

Delta ras - grey
Powermatic bandsaw - yellow
Jet drum and spindle sanders - white
SawStop table saw - black
Grizzly jointer - green


IMO the fit and finish on these machines is pretty much the same. The 2 exceptions are the Jet spindle sander where the fit leaves something to be desired, and the SawStop where the black finish on the cabinet is like a mirror.

All these machines do everything I need them to do in my hobby shop/garage.

As for delivery companies, they have always put the equipment in my shop. However, only the Jet drum sander and the SawStop came undamaged ... and the SawStop I picked up at WoodCraft. :)

[Paul McGaha]

I find Sawmill Creek to be very Pro Grizzly. Fine with me. To each their own.

I dont own any Grizzly pieces myself I think due mainly to the fact there isnt a store near and I like to see the tools in person if I can. There are a couple of Woodcrafts near me that have a decent selection of Powermatic, Jet, Delta and those are the tools that I ended up purchasing.

Some of my tools were also bought based on tool reviews by magazines like American Woodworker and again tended to be Powermatic, Jet, Delta.

My tools are bought now (For the most part) and I'm happy with them, I must say though for any future purchase, I'd look at Grizzly and strongly consider their tools based on the fact they have so many Pro Grizzly people here at the Creek and because they are priced very sharply in a lot of cases.

PHM

[Curt Harms]

I wouldn't otherwise have. I have a Grizzly 3 h.p. cabinet saw, Jet J/P and Rikon 14" bandsaw with 13" resaw. If the only choices were Euro quality build (whether U.S. or Euro origin) I would still have a Craftsman 1.5 h.p. contractors saw, probably no jointer and benchtop planer. I wouldn't spend the $$ for industrial grade machinery for an occasional use hobby shop. Others do and more power to them but I would not. There's the 'cheap' old iron but I wonder if that old iron would be so cheap if there weren't the relatively inexpensive new Asian iron. Ain't it great to have a choice?

[Harold Burrell]

Ain't it great to have a choice?

And THAT is the bottomline...:D

[Chuck Saunders]

I can't decide on a color scheme for my shop.

Delta ras - grey
Powermatic bandsaw - yellow
Jet drum and spindle sanders - white
SawStop table saw - black
Grizzly jointer - green
:)
I'm with you will, I don't even know what color my Boice-Crane stroke sander is supposed to be.

[Erik Christensen]

and so far I have been very lucky. Here in San Diego my Griz lift-gate deliveries have all been by Fed-Ex freight and all the drivers have been outstanding - every last pallet dropped in my shop exactly where I asked.

The best one was my 19" bandsaw - it came upright bolted to the pallet and while my garage and shop ceilings were more than high enough the %&$@* garage door was not - the saw would not fit while on the pallet & pallet jack. I shrugged & told the driver to just drop it in my driveway. He looked at the threating sky and took his pallet jack back to the truck, returned with a handcart - unbolted the saw from the pallet, muscled it off the pallet & on to the cart, tilted it on his back enough to clear the garage door and wheeled it to my shop!

[David Weaver]

edit: I'm almost afraid to tell you guys about he Macbook Pro I'm typing this on.:D

Booooo....hisssssss.... :D

[Steve Rowe]

I am with Van on this, this forum is generally very Grizzly friendly and often gives the appearance of a Grizzly love fest. This is evidenced by the common use of what I will refer to as the "G-code" in postings. This code is the letter 'G' followed by a series of 4 to 5 alphanumeric characters. Use of this code is often understood by most who evidently have memorized the entire Grizzly catalog or use the catalog as a decoder. :)

Grizzly has done a good job of marketing and placing affordable machines in many home hobbiests shops that probably wouldn't otherwise be there. In my experience, they are far from the best machines and but not quite as far from the worst. Regardless, their pricepoint is hard to beat. I have owned three Grizzly machines and am not enamored. They just didn't meet my standards for performance. I did however, get exactly what I paid for - 'a good price for an average machine' and that is about all I can say. I don't consider this as "bashing", it is just an honest opinion based on my personal experiences with several of their machines. I have recently divorced myself from my last Grizzly machine as it was time to move on to something much better. The buyer was just as happy to get the machine as I was to get rid of it. And, like Curt said - it is great to have a choice.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Use of this code is often understood by most who evidently have memorized the entire Grizzly catalog or use the catalog as a decoder. :)


There's a special decoder ring, Steve - you don't have one? :confused: You must not be in the club... :)

[John Coloccia]

psssst, dan....operation G0225 is a go...I repeat, G0225 walks with eagles...tell the fat man, "the german has no cheese".

[Mike Cruz]

While I have been guilty of using the Gcode, I do my best to follow it with whatever it is...like when talkking about the G1030 dust collector that I got, or the G1018 BS, or the G1033 20" planer. I don't know why more don't do it, but I find it a tad annoying, too when you just see G4054 without a designation of it being a TS or Planer. Of course, usually, if you read on, it becomes apparent, but assuming that everyone knows what you are talking about is presumptuous...right PM66 owners? :rolleyes:

[David Helm]

psssst, dan....operation G0225 is a go...I repeat, G0225 walks with eagles...tell the fat man, "the german has no cheese".
Thanks! My coffee is now all over the computer screen.

[Mike Cruz]

Um...who are you calling fat, German, and a cheesehater?

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks! My coffee is now all over the computer screen.

I'll second that. It was hilarious, thanks for the laugh of the day..........Rod.

[Ben Hatcher]

Let me start off by saying that I’m a quality engineer, so I have a far different take on quality than the average Joe. Here’s my rant. From a manufacturing standpoint, what many of you refer to as quality is really more correctly termed grade. Quality is conformance to specifications. Grade is the level of “fanciness”.

Grizzly tools can have the exact same quality as any fancy American or European brands. But since the design specs might call for lesser materials, cheaper/faster methods, allow for greater tolerances, etc. they’ll be vastly different grades. Grade drives the price point much more than quality.

So, that’s the manufacturer’s standpoint. The rub occurs when we as consumers have our own standards to which we judge a product. Even though that plastic housing is perfectly made, and is in conformance to the design, we might say it is low quality because we expect thicker plastic, or metal to be used for that part. That’s not the fault of the manufacturer. That’s the fault of the consumer who bought a low grade product even though they have high grade expectations.

The wonderful part of the creek is that there is such a wide variety of skill, needs, and expectations among the members. But I think when it comes to tool reviews, that range results in the exact discussion we have here where opinions vary from “they’re wonderful” to “they’re junk.” I think that when buying a tool, after you answer what do you intend to use this for, how often, etc, you really need to ask yourself a few more questions, like…What is important to me, price, value, the deal, buying new/used, the feel, features, ease of use, size, weight, capability, capacity, scalability, brand, color, bragging rights, etc.?

There’s a saying in quality circles that goes something like “You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, and you can have it good. Pick 2. I think that you can apply that to tool buying. You can get that super duper (insert tool here) for (deal of the century price), but you’re going to have to wait for it. If you want it now, you’re going to have to buy a lower grade item or fork over a heck of a lot more scratch.

[David Prince]

I don't remember having to sign a disclosure when I signed up for SMC that I was "Grizzly Friendly". If SMC is "Grizzly Friendly" then it is because there are some satified Grizzly owners out there. If SMC is very "Grizzly Friendly" then there must be a lot of satisfied Grizzly owners out there. AND as far as I know SawMill Creek isn't code for "Grizzly Lovers Anonymous"!

I own a lot of different brands. Yes, Grizzly is one of them. Each has their own appeal.

To me it isn't alot different from the car analogy. Each person has their preferences and prices they are willing to pay. They all work.

I don't need top of the line, but I don't want the bottom either.

If I am "Grizzly Friendly" it is because they delivered what I expected for the agreed upon price and it performed as I expected.

[Dan Hintz]

Let me start off by saying that I’m a quality engineer...
Shouldn't we be the judges of that?












:p

[Ken Fitzgerald]

First, I will admit to having two Grizzly tools in my shop. I have a 12" disc / oscillating spindle sander and my recent G0490X jointer purchase.

The sander has met my every expectation. It looks nice and works well.

The fit and finish on the jointer cabinet is not a great as I would like but the machine performs well in my tests and alignments.

An equivalent jointer from Northfield would have cost nearly 10 times as much as this Grizzly. An equivalent from PM would have cost double ...and the Laguna....and the Jet would have cost $1,000 more.

However, for the price of the Northfield jointer..I have a PM3520B, an Onieda 3 HP Super Gorilla, a MM-16 and the 2 Grizzly tools in my shop and they are paid for.

Are the Grizzly tools of equal grade or quality? I hope not, otherwise why pay 8-10 times as much money?

Recently becoming deaf will probably result in my retiring at least a year earlier than I'd planned and it will have an obvious financial result.

If I'd waited until I could afford US, Canadian or European tools for all my tools, I'd be retiring without a shop where I could pursue my hobby.

Unless you are a Bill Gates or other billionaire, in most things in life you have to make decisions of price versus quality/grade.

[Joe Leigh]

When one of our members here dropped his G690 (gratuitous g-code usage) on the way home from grandma's house, and was a good enough sport to admit to, and post pictures of the casualty, the owner of "G" stepped up.
I'm sure it had little or no impact on the company bottom line, but if the forum didn't exist would the member have received the same consideration? Maybe, maybe not.
I believe the Grizzly mystique has more to do with customer service than with the quality or grade of their products. I can't remember a Grizzly table saw customer who is a member here in the last year that hasn't had a complaint about a table that wasn't flat or a throat plate that was virtually unusable. Each instance resulted in replacement tables, throat plates, fences, etc.
That I think is where the real value lies, and I credit the Creek for providing an avenue to ensure that value gets realized.

[Ben Hatcher]

Shouldn't we be the judges of that?

:p

Funny. However, in this case, I'm referring to my position and not my performance.

[Ben Hatcher]

When one of our members here dropped his G690 (gratuitous g-code usage) on the way home from grandma's house, and was a good enough sport to admit to, and post pictures of the casualty, the owner of "G" stepped up...
I believe the Grizzly mystique has more to do with customer service than with the quality or grade of their products. I can't remember a Grizzly table saw customer who is a member here in the last year that hasn't had a complaint about a table that wasn't flat or a throat plate that was virtually unusable. Each instance resulted in replacement tables, throat plates, fences, etc...

Joe, That's a great point, and these returns become essential data for the company when determining the features and specifications for their products. Sadly, this is also one of the ways that compainies trouble shoot. It isn't always possible to do 100% testing of all the different permutations of use a product will see. Sometimes, especially with software, your most useful testing is done in beta versions, and first releases. This is why you see service pack 1 come out within a month or two of a new windows release. Good manufacturers will use their warranty returns as a learning tool and will tweak their processes to prevent it from ever happening again. Those that don't, don't last...or if they're a car company, get bailed out or sold to the Italians.

[Will Overton]

Grizzly tools can have the exact same quality as any fancy American or European brands. But since the design specs might call for lesser materials, cheaper/faster methods, allow for greater tolerances, etc. they’ll be vastly different grades. Grade drives the price point much more than quality.


I often see where 'experts' write that Grizzly uses lesser materials, etc. I agree, they might. I have yet to see anybody actually determine if this is fact or fiction.

Also, like Craftsman, Grizzly has a wide price difference within the same category of tool. Do the more expensive tools use the same 'lesser materials' as the cheaper ones.

I don't know what the quality of the materials are, and it always bothers me when experts paint things with a broad brush, particularly when naming any particular brand.

[Warren Clemans]

My personal experience with Grizzly is mixed. I bought an 8" jointer and 18" bandsaw 10 or more years ago. I have struggled with both of them, and the bandsaw in particular. Castings broke (the part that holds the blade guide, plus the assembly that the upper wheel mounts on) and the switch died (an expensive replacement). I took the jointer infeed table off at one point and was shocked to find a huge void in the casting where the table and the base meet. It was a flaw that never should have left the factory, but it wasn't visible without taking the machine apart so they let it go. Granted, this was quite a few years ago and by all accounts their quality (grade?) is a lot better these days. Still, my personal feeling is that I got burned by Grizzly. On the other hand, I had 10+ years of woodworking that I otherwise couldn't have afforded. 10 frustrating years with a lot of wood wasted by an uncooperative saw (yes, and some user error too), but I have a lot of good furniture to show for it. Now that I can afford it I'm replacing the old green tools (the bandsaw just left my shop a few weeks ago, for cheap, with full disclosure to the happy buyer) with Italian machines.

[Ben Hatcher]

I often see where 'experts' write that Grizzly uses lesser materials, etc. I agree, they might. I have yet to see anybody actually determine if this is fact or fiction.

Also, like Craftsman, Grizzly has a wide price difference within the same category of tool. Do the more expensive tools use the same 'lesser materials' as the cheaper ones.

I don't know what the quality of the materials are, and it always bothers me when experts paint things with a broad brush, particularly when naming any particular brand.

Will, You make another very good point. But I’d still argue that they’re a value brand. When designing products, they’re going to spend more time looking for the best compromise of function and cost than they will looking for the best of the best, regardless the cost.

[Kirk Poore]

I often see where 'experts' write that Grizzly uses lesser materials, etc. I agree, they might. I have yet to see anybody actually determine if this is fact or fiction.


Here's a photo of an imported 20" planer head vs a Powermatic 180 (18") planer head cross section and bearing:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r118/rmvaughan/Planer/PMCHcomparison.jpg
(from Bob Vaughan on OWWM.org)

I think that bearing says it all.

Look--for the most part, you get what you pay for. You can get cheap and new, and not get durability. You can get cheap and old, and have to invest your time & some extra money, but you'll get durability. You can get expensive and new, and get the durability. So pick cheap money, cheap time, and durability, whichever you want--but you only get to pick two.

Kirk

[Ken Fitzgerald]

If I were a professional making a living at woodworking I could probably argue and justify buying only top notch expensive tools as durability and extreme accuracy are important to the pros.

On the other hand as a hobbyist with a limited budget, it's difficult to justify spending $12,000 or more on a Northfield jointer when I can outfit my entire shop with some fairly good major tools for the same amount of money.

The Asian made tools opened up the market for companies to other customers that would quite possibly not be woodworking at their current level if they had to save all their lives to buy a Northfield.

Go look at the cost of a new Northfield tool. Their 3 year old price list is on their website.

I won't doubt their products are of higher quality. Their tools had better be better quality for the price difference. If I had to spend that kind of money for all my tools, I wouldn't have a woodworking shop in my back yard. I couldn't justify that kind of expense for a hobby. But that's me....

You can argue durability all day.....you can argue US made all day. Something being made on the North American continent has not guaranteed quality for several decades.

In the end, it's what's personally right for an individual.

If the person enjoys tinkering/rebuilding old machines buy used. If you have unlimited funds buy what ever you want. If you live on a budget, you buy the best quality you can afford.

No manufacturer gets any slack here. None. What differs here is that the Terms Of Service that everyone agrees to when they join...the TOSs demand you have to have evidence and reason to chastise anyone or any organization/manufacturer. Even then the thread or post must be civil.

Back on topic....nobody should have to justify their purchases. We all have different income levels, different attitudes towards owning tools/toys and we should respect that right too.

[David Hostetler]

Funny how you see so many bash the lower price imports, but then you see the posts from the guys that are having serious trouble with their big tool X, Y, or Z, and they for the most part come from companies like Laguna, Delta, Powermatic etc... At least that is the trend I have been seeing lately. Particularly with Laguna...

Yes, modern designs, and this includes the imports use different, less materials what not than the old stuff. (the Powermatic 180 vs "import" planer cutter head pic is a good example)... Does that mean offhand that it is higher or lower quality? Not in the slightest. A 1950s Chevrolet used a LOT more steel than a modern Chevrolet. How many miles could you reliably get out of a 1950 Chevy? How many out of a 2010? What about safety features? What about cost?

Long story short, buy what works best for you, in function, and budget.

I have tools in my shop from all sorts of tool manufacturers, Delta, Ryobi, Grizzly, Harbor Freight, Ridgid, etc... And they ALL have earned their keep in my shop. Would a full on setup from Powermatic make me a better woodworker? Not hardly...

So while it is nice to drool over the big shiny tools in the various catalogs, if they are beyond a woodworkers financial reach, the dream of owning big shiny isn't nearly as valuable as the reality of being able to own a lesser brand machine that does the same job.

[bruce buren]

I too am extremely happy with my grizz purchases and am getting ready to get the go441 cyclone

[george wilson]

Some of you guys may be too young to recall some of the "good old" American products we had to use back in the 50's and 60's.

Parks 12" planers(I had one) were notorious for their feed roller gear boxes breaking dow. Might have been from bronze bearings being used. My old planer had a long,drawn out Rube Goldberg mess of motor,gears and chain drive to replace the failed gearbox. It fed VERY slowly. It didn't bother me when I was always making guitars,but when I made a harpsichord case,it took forever to plane the wood.

I saw a parks 12" that someone had used an old floor shift car transmission on to replace the broken gear box. Pretty clever,actually,but the machine took up more space than our 20" Powermatic planer in the toolmaker's shop.

I don't recall seeing a pot metal pulley on a Taiwan made jointer. We had 1 on our Delta 8",and it was always coming loose.

My first metal lathe was a 12" Sears Atlas. Incredibly frustrating lathe. I couldn't take off more than 1/32" at a pass with it.It was so flexible that it always failed to take off the required amount of metal that you'd dial in to the cross slide handle. All pot metal gears. I needed a new set of half nuts every 6 months.

When I got my 10" Jet lathe,it was a revelation to me of what a real lathe should be. I could not come close to paying what a South Bend of similar size would have cost.And,South bends were never considered to be great lathes,either. The Jet was much more heavily built than a South Bend 10"

You do need to watch the castings on Asian stuff. They'll slip in a defective casting if they can get by with it. Their motors are not dipped in insulating varnish. For what they are,and for the value,Vs. what you could get back in the 50's and 60's,they are great deals.

Delta has always used many pot metal parts on everything

[mreza Salav]

If I were a professional making a living at woodworking I could probably argue and justify buying only top notch expensive tools as durability and extreme accuracy are important to the pros.

On the other hand as a hobbyist with a limited budget, it's difficult to justify spending $12,000 or more on a Northfield jointer when I can outfit my entire shop with some fairly good major tools for the same amount of money.

The Asian made tools opened up the market for companies to other customers that would quite possibly not be woodworking at their current level if they had to save all their lives to buy a Northfield.

Go look at the cost of a new Northfield tool. Their 3 year old price list is on their website.

I won't doubt their products are of higher quality. Their tools had better be better quality for the price difference. If I had to spend that kind of money for all my tools, I wouldn't have a woodworking shop in my back yard. I couldn't justify that kind of expense for a hobby. But that's me....

You can argue durability all day.....you can argue US made all day. Something being made on the North American continent has not guaranteed quality for several decades.

In the end, it's what's personally right for an individual.

If the person enjoys tinkering/rebuilding old machines buy used. If you have unlimited funds buy what ever you want. If you live on a budget, you buy the best quality you can afford.

No manufacturer gets any slack here. None. What differs here is that the Terms Of Service that everyone agrees to when they join...the TOSs demand you have to have evidence and reason to chastise anyone or any organization/manufacturer. Even then the thread or post must be civil.

Back on topic....nobody should have to justify their purchases. We all have different income levels, different attitudes towards owning tools/toys and we should respect that right too.

No kidding ken when you talk about the prices of Northfield, their lowest 8" jointers are like $10-11k, wow! They better be gold coated at that price...

[Don Alexander]

back in the 70's we used to have this discussion about designer jeans such as Jordache vs. Wrangler's or Levi's :D:D:D

while the products are completely different the discussion remains the same

in the final analysis everyone has to balance price, performance and quality/grade to their own satisfaction/budget ( probably size of their shop too ) as with alot of other things in life there are often tradeoffs required to make things work out for individual circumstances.

love this forum and all the awesome info and discussions that are here
is it all relevant to my situation ? nope , but like you all i filter out what is and enjoy the back and forth of the rest as well :)

[Will Overton]

I think that bearing says it all.


The bearing doesn't say much about Grizzly products. You point out "Powermatic" and "Import". Import is not a brand. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that the experts paint with a wide brush.

Today, much, if not all of Powermatics products are "Imports". Did they automatically switch to inferior parts?

I'm not saying that there aren't inferior parts used is some tools, and Grizzly could be using them in some or all of their products. But, unless you strip down a Grizzly and a similar tool from someone like Powermatic or another higher priced competitor, nobody should be making assumtions about the "quality" (or whatever term the experts want to use) of a particular brand.

[Mike Cruz]

Funny how many people consider Grizzly to be okay for the hobbyist, but think they would need better for professional.

I worked in a custom shop that made some remarkable stuff... DC, 20" planer, wide belt sander, 8" jointer, edge sander, 18" BS...all Grizzly.

Sure every once in a while, the stuff needed tweeking and adjusting. But I can't imagine any tool not needing it after the amount of wood pushed through them.

Hey, even businesses need good values, and believe me, they stood up to our abuse.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Even within given brand, there low grade products and higher grade products....within Grizzly.....within GMC...... different price points for folks with different budgets.


Think about this for a minute........ I bought my first car in 1965. It was a 1956 Chevrolet 2 door sedan. That was the model too....Chevrolet..not just the brand...... it had 125,000 miles on it and it was toast. Within a year I had to put a new motor in it...a new rear end in it and the manual OD never did work...when I got it or when I got rid of it.

Now my father is dead now so I'll own up to it today. "Yes Dad! I was hot rodding it!" but at age 15 I started roughnecking on oil rigs nights and going to HS days and paying room and board to my parents. I was working for my Dad and he had 5 other kids and Mom to support. It only seemed right. I bought that '56 and wished I had it back today....just for sentimental reasons not because it was a particularly good car.


Now Chevrolet....is warranting their products 100,000 miles...They didn't warrantee them that much then.

Products then had their problems.

[David Weaver]

I don't recall seeing a pot metal pulley on a Taiwan made jointer. We had 1 on our Delta 8",and it was always coming loose.


George, I have a taiwan jointer made in the mid 90s with a pot metal pulley. It's a real turd! Guess who makes it? Delta. It's junk, but it's only a 6" jointer obviously aimed at home users (with an open stand and semi-fixed tables) and I don't use a power jointer that often (never for good quality work, I usually mooch off a buddy if I feel the need to use a good power jointer).

A lot of the made in usa homeowner grade stuff from 50 years ago was junk, too, just as you're saying. It's popular around here because this town was in its heyday back then and people were starting to work wood as a hobby, even though metal and tool and die shops rule the area. My dad is using that level of stuff, and has been since the 1970s. he's still using it, and he uses it hard (well, as hard as you can use it without breaking it). he doesn't make furniture, he and my mother have a retirement business making artsy fartsy stuff. I think his tools are kind of hard to tolerate, though, but he came from no money and he doesn't mind them.

At any rate, in my opinion, there's never been a better time to be a hobby woodworker or tool tinkerer, because even if you don't like the import stuff, if you want a tool to do a function you're not going to do too much, it's always there.

[george wilson]

Our millwork shop,against my advice,bought a Powermatic 8" jointer,asian made. Paid something over $2000.00 IIRC. I advised them to get a Bridgewood like I have. It has always been a perfectly accurate Taiwan made jointer. I bought it used for $400,or $500.00,but still like new. Got my 15" Bridgewood planer the same day,from the same shop the jointer came out of. Like new,too. The owner had upgraded to larger machinery shortly after buying these machines. When I get grown up,maybe I'll have big machines too.:)

The Powermatic's tables were SEVERELY out of alignment. I mean way over 1/8" 2' from the cutterhead. I used my precision Tumico 4' straight edge to check it out.

The purchasing dept. may have been involved in choosing this piece of junk,I don't know. the jointer was hopelessly out of true.

Before I left,I decided the old 1950's Delta jointer needed replaced. I bought the cheapest 8" jointer Grizzly sold. It was an old model they were selling out,so I got it very cheap. It was dead on accurate every where. Planed so much better than the old Delta ever had. The old Delta looked just fine,but the tables were worn just enough that they were a bit out of true across the cutter head. I could never get the knives adjusted so that they were true to both infeed and out feed tables. Always bumping into the outfeed table's leading edge,or snipeing a bit. Take your choice. The Grizzly was perfect,and the height of each side of the head could be adjusted with shims,too. I liked the looks of the old Delta machinery,but the accuracy wasn't there.

The grinding of new equipment is much better than the old. The new way is to use a large grinder whose wheels are as wide as the table to be ground. The surfaces are ground in 1 piece. The OLD Blanchard grinding was never especially accurate in the old machines. Maybe their grinders were worn. I hear Blanchard can be accurate,but the old grinding wasn't very.

The table of the new Saw Stop I got for the shop was beautifully ground,too. 1 big,smooth grind.

I'm glad I didn't get a Saw Stop for myself. It's not possible to use special saw blades on it,such as my 6" guitar fret saw blade with a .020" kerf. But,the saw was very well made,and a great looking saw,too.

[Jim Heffner]

I really don't understand why all the Grizzly bashing as of late? Do you?
I personally don't own any Grizzly machines, but it seems to me that most
people on the forum(s) that I read on a daily basis are happy with their
choice of machines whether it is Grizzly or not!

I buy what I can afford at the time, use it and go from there....and don't worry if someone else likes it or not, I think that their opinion and $1.37
will buy them a cup of coffee at the Waffle House! If someone doesn't like
a particular brand of machine, best thing to do is SELL IT,and buy what they
want from someone else and stop all the whining.

[David Prince]

Has there ever been a comparison done that tries to adjust dollar for dollar American made vs. Chinese made? An American union worker makes $x.xx and a Chinese peasant worker makes $x.xx. It costs $x.xx to ship in the US and $x.xx to ship from China. American steel costs $x.xx and Chinese steel costs $x.xx. etc.

So, if you actually figure it all in, is a person getting a better deal out of the Chinese product because I would bet the majority of their cost is way lower. Their wages (minimal), unemployment insurance (unknown if there is any), workers comp. (unknown if there is any) can be HUGE differences.

Dollar for dollar there are probably a lot of reasons why the Chinese product is cheaper and isn't always necessarily because they use inferior quality materials or produce an inferior product. Just because it is cheaper doesn't necessarily mean it is crap in my opinion if you take into consideration other factors.

Another aspect that hasn't been brought up is the "feel" of the tool and controls. I looked at several table saws before choosing a G0690. To me the Grizzly just "felt" comfortable to use. Every saw isn't exactly the same. (another odd selling point for me was that the dust chute was exactly where I needed it to be without having to retrofit my DC pipes)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

A little friendly reminder.....political discussions are not allowed at SMC.

Please don't go there.

[Andrew W. Thomas]

Prior to doing research... and reading SMC, I had not heard of Grizzly. When I posted a couple contractor saws that were in my price range asking for advice it was then that others turned me towards Grizzly. I did loads of research and ended up going with the G1023Z. As a hobbyist woodworker I couldn't have been happier with my purchase. Price was a huge factor with the wife setting my budget and my goal was to get the best quality bang for my buck. My delivery through Overnight Express of Rockford, IL (division of UPS) was great with the driver rolling the pallet right into my garage and refusing a tip. I have not used any other cabinet saw except for a Grizzly but I'm quite sure that had I not gone with Grizzly I wouldn't have been able to afford a cabinet saw. It has worked great for me so far and would buy Grizzly in the future.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Let me start off by saying that I’m a quality engineer, so I have a far different take on quality than the average Joe. Here’s my rant. From a manufacturing standpoint, what many of you refer to as quality is really more correctly termed grade. Quality is conformance to specifications. Grade is the level of “fanciness”.

This reminds me of the 'total quality management' movement of the 1980s of which I was clubbed over the head with. I suppose this philosophy may appear sound in the corporate world of contracts, but it's a narrow definition if you want to ensure the satisfaction of your client or buyer.

First, ethical conduct by the provider doesn't come into play using this definition. Ethical conduct cannot be specified and should not be confused with legal and/or contractual conduct. This is a growing problem with all services and products these days.

Secondly, the definition of quality as 'conforming to specifications' requires that exhaustive specifications are often needed to describe the performance of the product in all situations. In the real world, this is exceedingly hard and is even harder, if not impossible, amongst even the well informed home consumer. It also becomes cost prohibitive. However, many suppliers will routinely compensate for their client's deficient specifications as to ensure the client's satisfaction will be met in the end and the provider's reputation sustained.

After all these years, I have found that the definition of quality remains to be a subjective term.

-Jeff :)

[Ben Hatcher]

This reminds me of the 'total quality management' movement of the 1980s of which I was clubbed over the head with. I suppose this philosophy may appear sound in the corporate world of contracts, but it's a narrow definition if you want to ensure the satisfaction of your client or buyer.

First, ethical conduct by the provider doesn't come into play using this definition....
Secondly, the definition of quality as 'conforming to specifications' requires that exhaustive specifications are often needed to describe the performance of the product in all situations....

After all these years, I have found that the definition of quality remains to be a subjective term.

-Jeff :)
Jeff,
It is interesting that you bring up total quality management. As I recall, the genesis of that movement was something very similar to what we have here. To the person who got the defective unit, it doesn't matter that you only make 1 defective unit in 1,000. It would be an interesting poll to conduct on the creek to see how many member have Gxxxxx device and what percentage of them have had something break or otherwise be unacceptably made.

As for the level of detail that is realistic...I assure you that every part on a mass produced item be it grizzly or any other manufacturer is specifically detailed. Every slot, hole, bearing, shaft, gear, etc. is described in excruciating detail. Where it is, what it is made of, the surface finish, the straitness, the roundness, the size, etc. is clearly spelled out in the drawing. This doesn't happen so much in job shops where you can just tell Joe on the other line, hey, I need a board cut to 15x13x3/4 and you get one pretty much dead on what you asked for. This is asking Joe to make you 10,000 of them and you're trying to match them up with another part supplied by Jerry in similar quantities and you need them in 5 days. I assure you, the quality of Joe's work is not subjective. They either fit or they don't.

[Greg Peterson]

My understanding of quality and grade have been re-calibrated.

Thanks Ben for clarifying.

[Paul Jensen]

Hey all, fairly new here to Sawmill Creek, just couldn't help weighing in on the Grizzly subject. I have been building cabinets and furniture for over 25 years and have had upwards or eight employees at a time. During this time I have had several pieces of Grizzly equipment and have generally been very satisfied. My chief complaint has been that they just don't seem to be AS durable as some of my other equipment. Keep in mind though that these tools are getting hours and hours of use every week, but, I keep going back. In Grizzly tools I currently have: 10" cabinet table saw (used exclusively for ripping hardwoods), an eight inch jointer, 20" planer, 17" bandsaw and a lathe with copy attachment. Not to mention two gravity fed spray guns. I also have a powermatic 66 (before they were made overseas), a 37" wide belt Sandya S1 sander and my newest addition, (just came Tuesday) a Camaster 408 X2 with recoil lathe! All this to say, the Grizzly equipment really holds its own against some of this "better" equipment. I would not hesitate to recommend it. (and no, I do not work for Grizzly)

[Andrew Joiner]

a Camaster 408 X2 with recoil lathe!

Welcome Paul,

What's a recoil lathe? What do you make with it?

[Mark Woodmark]

My shop has all the hot button items... Grizzly, SawStop, Lie-Neilsen, etc. I've only got one thing to say: Why is it that so many people care about what tools I have in my shop?

That is all.

edit: I'm almost afraid to tell you guys about he Macbook Pro I'm typing this on. That's a whole other level of controversy :D

Maybe we are just kids in big bodies. We love our toys and want to know what toys the other kids have so we know what toys to buy.....At least this applies to this big kid

[Keith Outten]

With the exception of the wealthy among us most of us make purchase decisions based on "Best Value" not the best quality, lowest cost, etc. A major part of the Best Value judgment is the persons financial situation, thus the equation is not the same for everyone.

The job of evaluating a specific purchase that involves multiple manufacturers and often multiple models is difficult. Ultimately the responsibility of purchasing the tool that represents the Best Value rests with the purchaser, if he/she makes the wrong choice you have only yourself to blame. You bought a machine to small or to large or you spent less than you knew you had to to get the tool you knew you needed for the job at hand. Blaming the manufacturer for delivering what you ordered is all to often what happens, probably more often than someone receiving a defective machine.

You can put my name in the Grizzly Fan column. I have been purchasing their tools for over 17 years and I wholeheartedly agree with the statement made above that Grizzly has made tools available to me that I would never have been able to own if I had to purchase them from another vendor. Years ago when i was raising my family and counting every penny the tools that I could afford to purchase were very limited. I was very happy to be able to purchase from Grizzly, they were the only vendor in those days providing machines that allowed me to become a woodworker other than Sears.

In spite of the fact that I could not afford to purchase the very best I still have the majority of my Grizzly tools in my shop. There were a few that I haven't kept, mostly because I purchased the wrong machine not that the machine was of poor quality.

My review of the Grizzly tools that I own doesn't have any bearing on the fact that they are now an advertiser here. My table saw, joiner, planer and dust collector are all older than SawMill Creek so there isn't any financial leverage in my opinion concerning the "Best Value" choices I made in the past.

Paul, congratulations on your new CAMaster Cobra, Saturday they delivered my new Stinger II CNC Router with a 48" Recoil lathe and I am pleased with the machine so far.

Andrew, you can order a CNC Recoil lathe as an accessory from CAMaster when you purchase one of their CNC Routers. A computer controlled lathe is a pretty cool machine IMO.
.

[Bart Leetch]

I had a Jet 6" jointer, and bought a Griz 8" to replace it.
The fit and finish of the Griz is no where near the quality of the Jet.
I'm looking for an old iron jointer so I can get the Griz out of my shop.
Personally, I don't feel the attraction to Griz tools.

Myk: I say this in Jest but in all earnestness too are you looking for a highly polished Porch to set there & look pretty & zoom down the highway? Or does the Grizzly tool when the bed & fence are waxed do the job of flattening one side & squaring one edge to that side as its supposed to? In other words if the pickup truck runs ok & looks reasonable & hauls what you need to haul but won't win honorable mention at an auto show so what, as long as it does the job you bought it to do. I didn't say this just because it's a Grizzly tool. I have older tools that were my Dad's that he purchased used that were missing paint & the beds were not highly polished & he needed to change out the 3 phase motor for a single phase motor but he made enough with that one tool to purchase the 3-5 of the machines in most of our shops. This was back in a time where all the fancy smance machines we have available to the average hobbyist couldn't be afforded by a small business owner & at times were not to be found depending on what part of the country you lived in. Sorry I have a hard time with whining over spit & polish when what comes out the other end production wise is what really counts. Long after we're dead & gone the furniture or what ever we make will be looked at & admired for the effort we have put into it. You won't here I wonder did they joint this on a Powermatic.

[Cary Falk]

I find that this site is more Grizzly friendly then other sites I have visited. The threads that are about Grizzly problems do seem to get more hate'n then Delta, PM, Jet, Steel City, etc. I have not figured out why that is. I have more and more Grizzly tools as I move foward. I have seen posts about problems on alot of companies including the Italian bandsaws. Any company can ship out a dud. The Grizzly tools I have will way outlast me and I don't see spending more money on a tool that will supposedly last multiple. If the tools are easy to adjust, keep the adjustments, and do what I need them to do, what more do I need. There are a lot of companies that have Grizzly tools. I mentioned that in one thread and the responce was that it was all about advertising. If I was running a company I would not use any equiptment that cost me a lot of money in down time no matter what kind of deal I got on them. I am at that point in my life that I don't keep any tool in my garage that flustrates me.

[David Helm]

My first cabinet saw (that I owned) was a Jet. I bought it 11 years ago. It was an excellent saw; fit and finish were fine, no arbor runout, quiet runner. It died in an unusual hit and run accident. I paid $1400 for it back then. I just replaced it with a Grizzly. I paid about the same as I did for the Jet. The fit and finish are excellent; no arbor runout, quiet runner. It has better dust collection than the Jet; it has a riving knife. Is it better or worse? It's probably too soon to tell, but in all respects it appears to be a superior saw to the Jet. All this talk about quality and grade seems to be a lot of hooey. Is the tool what you hoped for? Does it do what you ask of it? Does it hold up? Do you have problems? Are they solved for you? Any manufactured product is subject to problems. The main difference is in customer service.

[Paul Johnstone]

The only problem I have had (other than small scrapes) has been with the US carriers who "delivered" it. I paid freight+ liftgate service. My G0454 was put on the ground 40' from where I needed it to get it into my shop. My 71 year old wife and I worked several hours to get into the shop by pulling it in short distances with my pickup and a comealong in the rain. In the process of US delivery they tore up my drive and yard. I have yet to receive word from the local terminal though the national customer service lady has been very sympathetic she can't help me directly.

The frieght carrier is only responsible for dropping off the tool at the curb, as far as I know. Some will be nice and do extra work (like bringing it into the garage), but you need to be prepared in the event that the guy will not.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but why didn't you find a mover on Craigslist to help you move the tool in? I've done that. In this economy, it's very inexpensive. My guy charges $30/hour, $50/minimum.. Wouldn't it have been worth $50 not to have you and your wife struggle?

Try to look at it from the driver's point of view.. He's hauling heavy stuff all day. He's got a task list that he has to complete. He's on a schedule.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Without liftgate service, it's my understanding the driver's only responsiblity it to get it to the rear of the truck. Getting it out of the truck and into the shop, house, etc, is the receiver's responsibility.

With liftgate service, the driver will move it on to the liftgate and down to the ground/street/road.

That's the system's requirement....not the driver.

I have yet had a driver fail to help me put it where I wanted it. The last guy even flat out refused a $20 tip.......flat out refused.

Due to rain and soft ground we couldn't get my jointer to my shop on his pallet jack so we put it on my carport.

[J.R. Rutter]

I like the distinction between "grade" and "quality". Every little part on a machine has been subjected to cost/benefit analysis, from the plastic used in switches, to the bolts holding it together, to the type of paint used. Some machinery that ends up costing less has a greater level of compromise built in as a result of this. At the cheapest end of the spectrum is what I think of as a full scale model of an actual machine. The "cost no object" end has a much greater likelihood of a completely engineered solution from materials, to ultimate purpose of the machine, to human/machine interface. Thankfully, most machinery falls somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.

I did read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance many years ago and get that quality can mean much more than conformance to specification. So in some sense quality as a personal experience of a thing is completely relative. That gets at the huge disparity between different people's perception of the same thing. One man's value is another's excess, or vice versa.

[Ben Hatcher]

JR, I still maintain that quality is conformance to specifications, even at the consumer level. The difference is that the specifications you're checking against aren't the manufacturer's, they're yours. The greatest thing about this thread is that everyone, be they a lover or a hater of the green, is right! The product either met their expectations, or it didn't.

The unfortunate part is that the reason for that isn’t always that the manufacturer is bad, but that the customer bought the wrong grade item from that manufacturer. I think that Grizzly is especially susceptible to this for several reasons. First, they offer a wide range of product grades, and, in my opinion, don’t differentiate them very well. There is no Scion, Toyota, Lexus, if you will. Add to that the fact that they’re mostly a mail order business. All of these mean that the consumer has to do a lot of research to make sure that what they’re buying is going to match their expectations. That’s pretty tough when all you have to go on is a small picture, and reviews by people who’s needs could differ greatly from your own. Contrast that with walking into your local Woodcraft or whatever where you can touch, feel, and sometimes even use the various grades of products making it all the more likely that what you buy is exactly what you expect.

[J.R. Rutter]

The difference is that the specifications you're checking against aren't the manufacturer's, they're yours.

And sometimes even you don't know what they are! Subjective vs objective . . .

[Will Overton]

I still maintain that quality is conformance to specifications, even at the consumer level.

Sometimes words are used within an industry one way, and percieved by the general public to mean something else. When explaining things to the general public (there are more of us) it usually helps to use commonly accepted definitions instead of sticking to industry standards.

" What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

[Robert foster]

Paul: You asked why we didn't find a mover from Craig's list. First of all I have had other pieces of equipment delivered in the manner in which many of you have received. Very good. I have also had 70 ft long semi's come and turn around in my drive way. This is the first piece of equipment I've had delivered by this company. When the driver came he was trying to deliver it so we could get it into the shop out of the rain. The closest Craig's list is 100 miles away. I did try to get my neighbor help with his forklift on his skid loader but it was down for repairs. It was raining, the driver, who was very friendly, did try but with the rain he got stuck in my drive and yard and did a lot of damage. He had to be pulled out by a wrecker. They also did damage to my yard.
Even though I paid for residential delivery the company would not even bring the second piece of equipment to my residence.
As for the 20 " Planer I suppose I could have left it out in the rain with a cover but that didn't seem to be the thing to do at the time. My wife and I figured out a way to get it into the shop and so we did.
If I were to come to where you live and tear up your drive and yard I would feel responsible for fixing it. Evidently this delivery company doesn't feel any responsibility since they will not even respond to me.
I still believe that the customer should have some expectation of service for which they have paid.
I think that in many cases the customer,who pays the wages of the service company, has been forgotten. I worked for a company many years ago which has grown tremendously because we took care of the customer. My boss used to say "the customer is not always right but they are still the customer and they pay your salary".
I now have to take this into consideration for future purchases. That is the reason why I suggested that Grizzly set up it's own delivery service. They have good customer service and I believe if they had control all the way to the shop we would all be happier for it.

Bob

[Jeffrey Makiel]

JR, I still maintain that quality is conformance to specifications, even at the consumer level. The difference is that the specifications you're checking against aren't the manufacturer's, they're yours.

That's exactly the point of my earlier post. What common woodworking consumer walks around with a set of drawings and material certification standards to specify their new tablesaw?

For instance, I want to buy a tablesaw and my purchase specifications address size, power, longevity, good tolerance, vibration, noise, safety features, and fit and finish clear of blemishes and dents.

I then find and buy the tablesaw that met all those things. By definition, I just bought a quality tablesaw.

I bring the saw home and when moving it, the stand bends under its own load. In my mind this should have never happened. However, using the 'conformance to requirements' definition of quality, I didn't specify that it had to have a base that can withstand its own weight when being moved about in my shop, therefore, it must still be a quality saw by my definition?

The primary point in my message is that a manufacturer designs and produces a consumer product that conforms to specifications based upon how a consumer will reasonable use it, and not rely on the meager specifications provided by the everyday consumer while standing in the showroom.

As for me, I will feel that my tablesaw with the bent stand is poor quality even if I didn't provide a mobility specification at time of purchase. In the manufacturing world, the manufacturer can push back using contractual enforcement. However, in the consumer world, the manufacturer is committing suicide if they think they can use this definition of quality with the lay person.

So what's the real definition of quality?

-Jeff :)

[Greg Peterson]

Engines, just in order to perform, have to be manufactured to very specific tolerances. The quality in a Toyota Corolla engine is likely no less than the quality in a BMW 3 series.

However, it is unlikely anyone would confuse the obvious difference in grade between the two engines.

How many times have we bought a cheap tool only to find out that it doesn't perform as well as we expected? The tool was manufactured to specification. The tool was just never intended to perform the task the consumer assumed it was designed to perform. Chalk one up for the ad agency.

[Paul Jensen]

Hey Kieth, thanks for the kind welcome. Enjoyed meeting you at the show and listening to your presentation. I agree with you regarding the Grizzly tools. Not the best, but certainly a great value. I too started business while raising a young family and the Grizzly tools allowed me to expand my capabilities without breaking the bank. I even sent my first Grizzly cabinet saw to Brazil with a missionary friend and it is still running strong over ten years later! Now my challenge is to get this Camaster up and running.:confused::confused:

[Bret Duffin]

I have several Grizzly tools. They are not perfect but they are good and cheap.

Next subject...

[Terry Beadle]

I've owned my griz 1023 now for several years and have been super pleased with it. 3HP left tilt Absolutely no problems. Cuts 8qtr no problem. It was $850 at the time I bought it. Delivered to my local carrier ( Yellow Freight ), forklifted to my pickup, and moved to my basement with no mishap.

If I ever upgrade my jointer ( delta 6" at Lowes on clearance $150 ) it will be a griz. Same for the drill press...although I may upgrade to a mill instead so I can make more infills.

I have tools from other manufacturers that satisfy me too. We are lucky as consumers to have so many good choices IMO.

Count me Grizz +1

[Ruhi Arslan]

The only problem I have had (other than small scrapes) has been with the US carriers who "delivered" it. I paid freight+ liftgate service. My G0454 was put on the ground 40' from where I needed it to get it into my shop.

While ago in San Diego, I received back a pair of speakers from the manufacturer after a warranty repair (a month past ten years warranty period by the way). I paid for the return shipment for these two boxes weighing 180lbs each. Freight driver had a lift gate on his truck. He placed the boxes on a hand truck and dropped them in front of the building right outside the foyer by the elevator. No steps, no ramps to climb. He refused to take them to the elevator and another few hundreds of feet from the elevator to my apartment. He wanted another $150 for the "additional" service although the shipping papers said "home delivery". I tried to reason with him, suggested that I will tip him generously, etc. He didn't budge. I walked away telling him to sort out what he wants to do with the "undeliverable" goods. He tired to hold the elevator door, realizing I was serious. I have immediately called the manufacturer in KY and told them what is going on. Few minutes later, he showed up at my door step handing out his phone with his super on the line. Supervisor apologized on behalf of his driver and ask my permission to "complete" the delivery. Needless to say, he's got no tip. I received a follow-up call from the manufacturer (Thiel, by the way) asking if everything was corrected. Few days later, I received a card from the DRIVER, hand written, trying to explain his unprofessional behavior.
Reason for the long story... Delivery, freight or not, can be only as good as the contracting/hiring company. If distributors/manufacturers don't give rats rear end, you get a lousy service from the delivery end as a result.



Also, it pays to know your liftgate freight guy. Every tool I've ordered has been dropped off in my garage, as well as a piece of liftgate equipment. I grease my delivery guy a little and he puts whatever it is within a couple of inches of where I want the pallet.

When I received JJP12, driver was so helpful and concerned well beyond his responsibility. After he brought the pallet to where I wanted, he was worried if I would be OK to take it down from the pallet. Makes a big difference...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks..........

It depends on what is contracted. The driver has no responsibility beyond doing that which was agreed on, contracted and paid for.

When you go to the shipping on Grizzly and even WoodCraft it states that the drivers responsibility for a residential delivery is a "tail gate" delivery. He gets it to the back of his truck. It is the recipients responsibility to get it to the ground and moved to its final location. If you pay for "lift gate service" the driver's responsibility is to get the object to the ground at the back of his truck. There are good reasons for this especially in a residential setting. Most homes don't have a loading dock. Many large tools come in a tractor trailer. A lot of homes (including mine) don't have the clearance to back a tractor trailer back to the shop.

You can rant, scream, whine, complain and call whomever you want, but the driver's responsibility is clearly stated at most websites.

I have been extremely lucky in the deliveries of all my large tools. I paid for lift gate service and the drivers not only put them on the ground but also assisted me in placing them where I wanted them.

The x-ray tubes on the new CT scanners my employer manufactures weigh 354 lbs. and are in an industrially designed strong, well thought out wooden crate. The crate consists of 3 parts 2 of which are mirror images. The crate assists in allowing one person to remove an old x-ray tube and install then new one by themselves. Often we find ourselves changing these x-ray tubes alone. The contract my employer has with a trucking company provides that the crate will be delivered to the CT scan room at the hospital. That is what is contracted. The company delivers them there...that's what is contracted.

When I bought my DC from Onieda, I ordered a 2.5 HP DC. A few days went by and I got a call from Oneida stating there might be a few days delay in shipping due to a shortage of 2.5 HP Baldor motors. "No problem" was my reply. A few days later I got a call. The shortage was continuing and would I mind if they sent me a 3HP instead at the same price? "Sure and Thanks!" was my reply. I would bet they wouldn't have voluntarily considered this alternative if I'd screamed and shouted when they called me initially.

As someone who has been in the customer service business for 34 years I will tell you that being civil with people will get you a whole lot more than taking names and shouting. Uncivil customers get exactly what the contract states....nothing less and absolutely nothing more. Reasonable, friendly customers get find out where I can bend,stretch or interpret the terms of the contract to their benefit.

[Robert foster]

Ken: Are you sure you're not a truck driver? I'm kidding. You've been in Customer service for 34 years but I've been in customer service for nearly 60 years. I know that you don't have to do anymore than is in the "contract" but some companies have discovered that going above and beyond the "contract" pays dividends in good customer relations and repeat customers. I have no problem with the driver. He did what he could under the circumstances. But the higher ups wrote him up for trying to deliver my planer in a manner that we could get it undercover and into a place where we could use it. My problem is with management who will not even contact me when I told a very nice customer service lady that I wanted to file a damage claim for damaging my drive and yard. I believe it is common courtesy and responsibility to respond to me. I have a damaged drive and yard and it was the delivery truck company that did it. All I ask is that they recognize their responsibility and fix it.
Have a good day
Bob

[John Coloccia]

Most drivers I know won't even go one your property because they don't want people calling them up saying "You broke my yard!".

When I get a delivery, I tell the guys flat out, "Look, I know you can't step foot here. I'd appreciate the help and if you do, it's not as a driver. It's just you helping, me out. If you drop it, step on my flowers or do anything else, no worries", and no one has ever refused me. I did have a guy that tried to back down my driveway, couldn't quite turn and got stuck in my gravel. He had to have someone tow him out. It took quite a bit of work to fix the mess he made but I didn't sweat it. He was trying his best to help me out. I'm not going to reward him by causing trouble. Now I know and I tell them "No, there's NO WAY you'll make that turn. TRUST ME". :D

Anyhow, I don't mean to pick on anyone. It's just that this is what happens when they try to do more than just dump it off at the curb. Sometimes things go wrong, someone has to pay for it, and no one is ever happy.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Robert,

Nope not a truck driver.

I do, however, deal with customers who feel they should pay for a Yugo and get Mercedes service.

A lot of folks IMHO have unrealistic expectations.

Over the past decades a common practice in most businesses has been to drive cost down. Today in my profession hospitals pay less for a service contract than they did 15 years ago. The cost of operating our business has continued to rise. So, something has to give. We carry a larger work load now than we did 20 years ago as a result and the chances are, we won't be able to respond to every service call as quickly as in the past because we are busy elsewhere.

Some customers love to complain about that....but they don't complain about the lower price on the service contract..........and they don't want to accept that they helped create the problem by hardball negotiating the cost of the service contracts.

To me....those things are unreasonable. But...that's just me.......

[Will Overton]

Since moving to Delaware almost every large piece of equipment has come damaged ... not good.

On the other hand, even when I had help standing by, the driver (sometimes with a helper) always insisted on getting everything into the garage/shop. Most did not want to accept a tip.

For awhile, Amazon posted a policy of getting the merchandise inside and checking for damage before the driver left. They were apparently having trouble getting reimbursed.

[Chip Lindley]

Grizzly, AFAIK, responsibly stands behind their products damaged during shipment. Griz takes it on the chin when the delivery companies may bear responsiblity for brutal neglegence. The OP suffered no damage, except to his stamina, having to move heavy machinery a distance to his shop. As Ken F. reminds us above, all that fine print is there for a reason. WE all should take notice and be fully apprised of what will come down when the Grizzly Ship comes in!

Since Grizzly's first ad in FWW #43, Nov/Dec 1983, it has been an importer of consumer-grade tools and machines, made in Taiwan or mainland China. There are no surprises there. Grizzly prices make their wares very attractive to the multitudes, and business has grown exponentially since the first offering of a 15" 4-post planer for $795, F.O.B. Bellingham, WA.

162650

At that time, Rockwell's RC-33 13" planer was about twice the price; made in Brazil by Invicta. To this day, Invicta machines are considered commercial quality, while in the early days, many were suspect of Grizzly's Asian origin and quality control.

If any bashing is to be done, IMO, it should not be Grizzly, but Delta or Powermatic, who's parent companies have used long-standing brand identities to market just another import tool, which may be made in the very same factory as Grizzly. The NEW Delta Unisaw is purported to be Made In USA but the castings come from Asia. It is "assembled" in the USA. The SawStop is imported from China, although that company would rather not talk about it.

The only viable alternative to Grizzly's attractive prices today, is to buy older, commercial equipment and either refurbish or hope that there is some quality still left within. Some woodworkers have neither the time or ability to tear into an older machine. That can become a pastime all unto itself, rather than making sawdust.

[Guy Roland]

I have a Grizzly question, I just bought a GO513X2 bandsaw. In the catalog it states this saw is "made in an ISO 9001 factory". Can anyone tell me what this means?

In my case it was delivered UPS tractor trailer. I chose no electric tailgate delivery and have the driveway from hell. I told the delivery rep to have the driver stay on the road and I would come down. When I showed up on my tractor with the fork setup you could see the relief on the driver's face it was actually funny.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

ISO is the International Organization for Standardization. For a company to rate the ISO 9001 approval they have to demonstrate that they have a standardized quality management system in place, implemented and is actively functioning.

From Wikipedia:
4.2 Documentation requirements
[edit (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/w/index.php?title=ISO_9000&action=edit&section=6)] 4.2.1 General Specifications


The quality management system documentation includes:

documented statements of a quality policy and quality objectives,
a quality manual,
documented procedures and records required by the ISO 9001:2008 International Standard, and
documents, including records determined by (Company Name) to be necessary to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes

[Robert foster]

Well guys, I guess I've learned about what I can expect in this old world. I've been it over 70 years so I ought to have known that it's a tough uncaring world out there. Of course I've been in the caring business all my adult life so I guess I'm being unreasonable believing caring and service and responsibility mean anything any more. Well at least I started a good discussion on delivery (service)?

Have a nice day!

Bob

[Dan Hintz]

Just an FYI, but ISO9001 means bupkus when it comes to anything real. As Ken posted from Wikipedia, it merely says there is documentation in place that specifies a quality policy... it says absolutely zero about the quality itself, just that a procedure to keep that quality from unit to unit is in place. That is a major distinction, and unfortunately many have come to think of ISO9001 as meaning high quality manufacturing... it does not. It can actually be no more than "I guarantee every unit that leaves the building has been turned on for 5 seconds and didn't let the magic smoke out."

[Greg Peterson]

Ben does bring up a good point about the Grizzly catalog. There is no way to determine the grade of a given machine. Price alone does not appear to quantify the grade of the unit, it bares a direct relationship to the size of the beds, HP, cutter head, bed lengths and so on.

Is one to assume the $375 G0654 6" x 46" Jointer is every bit the same grade as the $675 G0452Z 6" X 46" Jointer w/ Spiral Cutterhead?

What I see in the catalog are bigger, stronger, faster versions of a given tool. Are the jointer beds on the G0654 every bit as true and accurately adjustable as those offered on the G0452Z? Are the tolerances between the two machines the same?

Clearly there are differences between the various offerings (bed width, length, adjustments, cutter heads, bases, mobility...), but aside from these obvious options are there any differences in grade of tool? If so, Grizzly does not offer any information.

[Paul McGaha]

I'm glad you started the thread Robert, It's been an interesting thread to read.

In regard to the trucking companies I see their point. As Ken pointed out it's not their job to move the tools into place for us and the honestly may not have the time. It's their responsibility to move the tool to the back of the truck only. If it's lift gate service then to the ground. If you happen to get a driver thats willing to do more you're lucky.

In regard to bashing Grizzly, I see Sawmill Creek as very Pro Grizzly as can be seen by reading this thread.

PHM

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Robert,

I surely didn't mean to insult you. That wasn't my intentions and if I did, I offer my sincere apology.

Grizzly and other major companies negotiate some really good trucking fees with the major carriers. If you doubt that, take the weight of one of your purchases and call a trucking company and get an estimate to have it trucked from your place to the Grizzly terminal from which it was delivered.

I work for a huge corporation....one of the largest in the world. Just my branch of the company ships thousands of parts annually via FedEx. My employer negotiates a contract with FedEx and the employees there have told me....the employee rate isn't as good as what my company gets....

The point is the business world has changed. It is no longer the leisurely world it was 30 or 40 years ago. Those days are gone. 34 years ago we took an hour for lunch. I used to see other field engineers on the job regularly. We had the manpower and hey....let's go help John out... We don't have that luxury today.

We also live in a more litigious society today. People are suing for little or no reason or just because they don't want to accept responsibility for something. As a result, when I am working in a hospital, things that 34 years ago I would have volunteered to help the hospital fix, I now just advise them it needs attention. The moment I try to be nice and assist them..and a patient gets injured or killed....me and my employer become liable.

Trucking and delivery companies like FedEx are the same way. Their drivers carry computers that track every delivery. Drivers are busier. In the course of helping someone beyond the scope of the details of a contract, they place themselves and their employee in jeopardy. One of the reasons companies charge more for special services is because they shoulder a bigger liability.

Robert,

I certainly didn't mean to be insulting or sounding uncaring and I apologize if I came across that way.

[Peter Quinn]

Grizzly, AFAIK, responsibly stands behind their products damaged during shipment. Griz takes it on the chin when the delivery companies may bear responsiblity for brutal neglegence. The OP suffered no damage, except to his stamina, having to move heavy machinery a distance to his shop. As Ken F. reminds us above, all that fine print is there for a reason. WE all should take notice and be fully apprised of what will come down when the Grizzly Ship comes in!

Since Grizzly's first ad in FWW #43, Nov/Dec 1983, it has been an importer of consumer-grade tools and machines, made in Taiwan or mainland China. There are no surprises there. Grizzly prices make their wares very attractive to the multitudes, and business has grown exponentially since the first offering of a 15" 4-post planer for $795, F.O.B. Bellingham, WA.

162650

At that time, Rockwell's RC-33 13" planer was about twice the price; made in Brazil by Invicta. To this day, Invicta machines are considered commercial quality, while in the early days, many were suspect of Grizzly's Asian origin and quality control.

If any bashing is to be done, IMO, it should not be Grizzly, but Delta or Powermatic, who's parent companies have used long-standing brand identities to market just another import tool, which may be made in the very same factory as Grizzly. The NEW Delta Unisaw is purported to be Made In USA but the castings come from Asia. It is "assembled" in the USA. The SawStop is imported from China, although that company would rather not talk about it.

The only viable alternative to Grizzly's attractive prices today, is to buy older, commercial equipment and either refurbish or hope that there is some quality still left within. Some woodworkers have neither the time or ability to tear into an older machine. That can become a pastime all unto itself, rather than making sawdust.

Wow Chip, I love the old adds. I was given a nearly complete subscription to FWW a few years back, and the old adds are some of my favorite content!. I also remember counter attack adds from Delta, basically warning consumers about cheap Asian knock offs, and the fact that "some companies were stealing their designs". They actually made an appeal to the consumers morality! Guess they have a higher estimation of that than I do?

Somewhere in those old FWW pages there is a planer review, where they compare a delta/rockwell planer head to head with a grizzly and a few others. They actually dismantled the machines to compare the parts inside! Seems the delta had three stout springs on a rigid chip breaker, but the Grizzly had a two paper clips on a bent bean can to do the same job. And the Grizzly sniped like heck and could not be adjusted, while the Delta worked beautifully. Go figure. I'd love to see them do this today, check the gears, check the rollers rubber compound, etc. Really get into the machine.

Every company starts some where, and it often involves blatant cheap rip offs of an already proven company with an established market and sound designs. This a pretty regular motif for founding a start up, though cheaper AND better is a nice way to go as well. Is that Grizzly bashing, or is that pretty much how it was? Well, that was a long time ago in any event.

I have a few things in my shop from Grizzly, though no major machines. I bought a stock feeder a few years back as a "toe dip" in the green waters, and based on that, I bought no more, but instead bought used later model euro machines. A BS, a shaper, another feeder. All work great! I personally won't buy another device from Grizzly that I haven't inspected in person first. The grizzly feeder was cheaper than other options, bit IMO not much of a value for my needs. Quality? Grade? Well, it has some of the best made cheap plastic handles I have ever used, and one of the finest low grade induction motors available. Yes, its a fine assembly of low grade parts. I've never seen cheaper less sticky rubber on a feeder's wheels, and this is the only feeder I have ever had "stop dead and over heat" during what I consider a fairly normal medium duty production run of a small molding. Is that Grizzly bashing? I also have a 1 1/HP replacement motor from Grizzly that works great despite arriving with a big dent in the control box. Funny, the baldor motors I have received had bullet proof packaging and arrived in pristine order, the small grizzly motor looks like it was packed and delivered by angry drunken chimps! Freight companies fault? Only partially.

On a bright note my local freight company is great. They take great care, they always arrive for local deliveries with a lift gate truck and have never charged extra for that service. Large machines from Laguna and powermatic arrived in perfect order, and were shipped in VERY SOLID crates. Just what is it that makes a lift gate ride worth $200 anyway? Thats right up there with some of the shady bank credit card fee schemes. A way to take your money because they can, not because they have earned it. If you don't have a fork lift, you need a lift gate, lifts aren't that expensive, and it certainly takes little real effort to operate. I know the drivers don't get paid extra for pushing the button, and lift gate deliveries don't particularly slow them down. So the charge $200 though no real costs are involved? It may be a "local deliveries are a PIA fee at best. When we get deliveries at work they have to wait for up to 30 minutes for the foreman to sign the invoice and track down the lift operator who may be in a warehouse somewhere. At my house they are in and out in under 10 minutes because I'm waiting, and I tip if they will take it, which frankly most drivers won't!

[Robert foster]

Ken: I'm not insulted. Again the delivery though disappointing isn't the problem. It's the damage they did to my drive and yard. If I were 40 yrs younger it might not matter so much but it' a lot of work and some expense to fix something they broke. And they won't even talk with me about it. I will surely find out what the delivery situation really is ahead of time the next time. I've delivered all but one of my big tools myself before and knew what to expect.
Some guys here are just plain lucky to have had such good experiences with their deliveries. Of course there are those who have had loads of damages to their packages too. I was lucky there and unlucky with the delivery damages.
If they are reluctant to do anything extra for fear of reprisal then shouldn't they also fear reprisal when they do the damage.

Your Friend

Bob

[John Coloccia]

Ken: I'm not insulted. Again the delivery though disappointing isn't the problem. It's the damage they did to my drive and yard. If I were 40 yrs younger it might not matter so much but it' a lot of work and some expense to fix something they broke. And they won't even talk with me about it. I will surely find out what the delivery situation really is ahead of time the next time. I've delivered all but one of my big tools myself before and knew what to expect.
Some guys here are just plain lucky to have had such good experiences with their deliveries. Of course there are those who have had loads of damages to their packages too. I was lucky there and unlucky with the delivery damages.
If they are reluctant to do anything extra for fear of reprisal then shouldn't they also fear reprisal when they do the damage.

Your Friend

Bob

Not all my delivery experiences have been great. When I had to ship out my Jet JJP-12, it took quite some doing to get it to the top of my driveway. ATV's, tow straps, and lots of praying/cursing/luck were involved, followed by celebration beer. It was quite an ordeal. Anyhow, now that it's up there, just sitting in a crate in the "upper" driveway, my guys just HAVE to come pick it up. I'm waiting at home, took the day off, etc. 20 minutes after they were supposed to have picked it up, I get a call that they can't make it because the lift's not working right. I just about flipped out. Call me in the morning. Call me a few hours ahead of time. Heck, call me 20 minutes ahead of time. Don't call me after you're already late with a sob story.

So I let them have it for their unprofessional behavior. I guess I shamed them into giving it a try anyhow because the driver called a few minutes later and told me he was on his way. He gets there, drops the gate, and we muscle it onto the lift gate. And then nothing.... LOL. The gate was acting up again and wouldn't go back up. All the paper work was done and signed so now he HAD to take it.

While he was on the phone with his dispatch, working out who's going to come out to fix the gate (because he can't well drive home like that), I ran inside. I came back out, gave him a nice tip and nicest one of my pens I could find, and gave it to him. We had a good laugh, he assured me that they'd figure it out and it was their problem now.

I ran inside to grab my keys. By the time I came out, he had flipped some magic switch somewhere and the crate was on the truck. We had another chuckle and went our separate ways.

Ok, so maybe I am lucky when it comes to this kind of stuff. Even my bad stories turn into happy ending stories.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Somewhere in those old FWW pages there is a planer review, where they compare a delta/rockwell planer head to head with a grizzly and a few others. They actually dismantled the machines to compare the parts inside! Seems the delta had three stout springs on a rigid chip breaker, but the Grizzly had a two paper clips on a bent bean can to do the same job. And the Grizzly sniped like heck and could not be adjusted, while the Delta worked beautifully. Go figure. I'd love to see them do this today, check the gears, check the rollers rubber compound, etc. Really get into the machine.



Oh yes, great old memories. I remember that test very well, although not quite as bad as you describe it. That test was done about 25 or 26 years ago, If I recall correctly, and the difference was that the Delta had three springs on the chipbreaker and ours had one. Within three weeks of that issue coming out, we sent all customers the extra chip breakers, made it a permanent change and never looked back!

We have come a long ways since then and are larger than Delta, Powermatic and almost all others in this business for a reason.

The issue about freight companies has been discussed at great length on Sawmill Creek. Do a search. I have posted many times, and so have many others. Just because you pay more for a product does not mean that you get better packaging. Many of you remember Lemkin - the guy to whom we shipped three jointer/planers (if I remember correctly) before telling him that he would be better off buying elsewhere. We had even recrated the replacement machine before shipping to him, yet the truckers/dock workers along the way managed to damage it. Anyway, some of you convinced him to pay more and buy MiniMax. He did. It came on a pallet with a cardboard box over the machine. The cardboard box had been stapled onto the jointer table at the factory!

There are guaranteed safe delivery options out there (like United Van lines door to door), but not commercially viable on a large scale, nor affordable for the customer.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Shiraz,

I have seen CT scanners...shipped on moving vans by my employer....only thing allowed on the van...by contract.......and deliver damaged. The damage to the control console in one case in which I was involved was indicative of it being dropped off the back of the trailer or off a loading dock somewhere.

Another view of "being nice" causing a liability problem. I was at the hospital accepting that CT scanner mentioned above. The truck was there. We had a subcontractor doing the mechanical installation. My employer uses this subcontractor on a nationwide basis and I had worked several installations with the supervisor of this group and had shared a round or two of brew one evening a couple of years before. A mammography machine belonging to the hospital located across the street developed a problem and the hospital asked me to take a quick look at it. The supervisor of this subcontractor team said "Go ahead. I can take delivery." When I came back from fixing the mammography machine he was in tears. The only item not wrapped in bubblewrap but instead wrapped in a moving blanket was the control console and he'd signed the paperwork for the driver.....the driver was gone....the console was damaged and it wasn't noted on the bill of lading. The only good thing was the console though damaged was 100% functional and it didn't prevent us from completing the installation on time and the hospital was able to scan patients. Legally his generosity could have made he and his company liable for that console. Me and my company accepted the responsibility.

There was no damage listed on the original bill of lading.....and only my companies medical systems were supposed to be on that truck. We pay dearly for that kind of service. Most of the time.... a majority of the time....it works well for these machines that cost $1,000,000-$3,000,000 but on occassion things happen.

I would bet you could buy some nice Grizzly green tools for price we pay for this kind of trucking services.

When we install an MR scanners we contract with heavy equipment operators and rigger services. To minimize damage, it requires people who are skilled and experienced in moving something 10' x 10' x 8' weighing 18,000-23,000 lbs. . There is one local group we hire almost exclusively and use across an area 130 miles by 500 miles. These guys are good. In the 8 or so installations I've done with them, I haven't seen them damage a single thing. You would not expect it by looking at a couple of them. They are skilled and we pay dearly...gladly.

You can get any type of service for which you are willing to pay. But even then....once in a while it still doesn't work out.

[David Prince]

We are getting a little bit off topic here, but I wanted to share that I think Fed Ex owes me one. LOL I had bought a 12 inch scms. The delivery person was a smaller female. She came to my door asking for help to complete the delivery. I went out to her van and took possession of the tool by myself and we were good to go.

Really though, it isn't a big deal. I don't have any major shipping complaints.

I think it has a lot to do with the shipping company and if there is a complaint, it should be forwarded to the place you ordered the item. I would think that the business would want to know if a shipper they have hired it not pulling their weight or is giving poor service.

[Mike Cruz]

What? This forum getting off topic? Never! We ALWAYS start out with one opinion/statement/question and stay on it. That is because this is the best forum. So, let's discuss why this is the best forum, or why it isn't, or what is the best forum, or what it means to be the best of anything, or....

[Chip Lindley]

Wow Chip, I love the old adds. I was given a nearly complete subscription to FWW a few years back, and the old adds are some of my favorite content!. I also remember counter attack adds from Delta, basically warning consumers about cheap Asian knock offs, and the fact that "some companies were stealing their designs". They actually made an appeal to the consumers morality! Guess they have a higher estimation of that than I do?

Somewhere in those old FWW pages there is a planer review, where they compare a delta/rockwell planer head to head with a grizzly and a few others. They actually dismantled the machines to compare the parts inside! Seems the delta had three stout springs on a rigid chip breaker, but the Grizzly had a two paper clips on a bent bean can to do the same job. And the Grizzly sniped like heck and could not be adjusted, while the Delta worked beautifully. Go figure. I'd love to see them do this today, check the gears, check the rollers rubber compound, etc. Really get into the machine.

Peter, that would have to be in FWW #52 (May/Jun 1985), p.72, Small Thickness Planers (We test six machines) by David Sloan. That same article sold me on the Rockwell RC33 and I paid alot for a slightly used one. I still have that planer today!

FWW did do another side-by-side comparison later: Mid-Sized Thickness Planers (Fine Woodworking editors try 14 machines from Taiwan, Japan and Canada) by Anatole Burkin, FWW#127, (Dec 1997) p.52. Interesting reading 13 years ago! Here is an except:

"Dispite the many labels, the majority of the machines came from the same Taiwanese assembly plant, Chiu Ting Machinery, also known as Geetech (although the individual components of these machines may come from different sources). Not surprising, all the 15-in. machines from Chiu Ting--AMT, Bridgewood, Grizzly, Jet, Powermatic, Reliant, Sears, Star Tools, Sunhill and Woodtek--are similar in many respects. The 15-in. Delta planer is also made in Taiwan, but at a different plant. It's somewhat different from the Chiu Ting machines but not drastically so. Actually, it looks a lot like its predecessor, the Rockwell 13-in. planer which is the machine the Taiwanese used as inspiration when they designed their 15-in. planers."

That was news in the mid-90s. But, we all know that now!



"

[Robert foster]

The issue about freight companies has been discussed at great length on Sawmill Creek. Do a search. I have posted many times, and so have many others. Just because you pay more for a product does not mean that you get better packaging. Many of you remember Lemkin - the guy to whom we shipped three jointer/planers (if I remember correctly) before telling him that he would be better off buying elsewhere. We had even recrated the replacement machine before shipping to him, yet the truckers/dock workers along the way managed to damage it. Anyway, some of you convinced him to pay more and buy MiniMax. He did. It came on a pallet with a cardboard box over the machine. The cardboard box had been stapled onto the jointer table at the factory!

There are guaranteed safe delivery options out there (like United Van lines door to door), but not commercially viable on a large scale, nor affordable for the customer.

Shiraz:
Thanks for joining the thread I started. I hope you can tell that I think Grizzly is great and am very well pleased with the tools and customer service. Customer service is so important and it seems many companies have forgotten who makes their business possible.
I don't know how much control you have over which delivery company handles your products but I'm sure you find the best for the best price.
I suppose I could drive ~ 300 miles to go to the Springfield store and pick up my next purchase. Then I could only complain about how far it is from here. Anyway I think you have a good company and look forward to doing business with you again.

Have a good day:

Bob

[Will Overton]

The issue about freight companies has been discussed at great length on Sawmill Creek. Do a search. I have posted many times, and so have many others. Just because you pay more for a product does not mean that you get better packaging.

How true. My Grizzly jointer arrived with shipping damage. Grizzly took care of it, but when it came time for a bandsaw I went with PowerMatic. They also took care of the shipping damage. :)

Oddly, around the same time a friend bought a very similar jointer from Steel City. It was crated around the Styrofoam insert instead of shipped in cardboard over Styrofoam which both PowerMatic and Grizzly used. The problem though is that somewhere along the line the shipping industry is dropping the ball.

[Rod Sheridan]

Bob, you are correct that just because you pay more, it doesn't mean you get better packaging, however sometimes you do.

I've purchased 2 pieces of machinery from Felder and the pallets truly are a work of engineering.

They're a combination of steel and timber parts, with the machinery bolted down to the pallet with mounting brackets.

The wood decking on the pallet is over 1" thick, and continuous, no open sections. The pallet runners are larger than 4 X 4 and often have a piece of 4" channel running the length.

You're paying for it for sure, however the packaging has been engineered to survive the trip from Austria to your location without a problem.

I know there are some accidents that will still happen, however I don't think you'll see machinery that has broken through, or free from the pallet in the above cases.

It can be worth spending more, to get more.

Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

We have come a long ways since then and are larger than Delta, Powermatic and almost all others in this business for a reason.

By all accounts your business has come a long way and offers a great choice for consumers. But I am not sure exactly what information this statement is meant to convey. The three largest retailers in my small town are Walmart, the Home Depot, and McDonalds in that order. They are larger than almost all others for a reason. Care to venture a guess as to what that reason is? Different companies operate at a lot of different levels in each market place which is good for consumers. If some one asks me where to get the best four star dining experience for their anniversary dinner, I don't recommend McDonalds for obvious reasons.

Chip brings up a good point about the "other" comparison of planers a decade latter. At some point all the basic 15" and 20" planers started coming from the same factory. HMMM? So why would I pay more for a Powermatic than a Grizzly? Well, I can't answer that question at all. But I can tell you that I work in a place that manufactures goods, of many different grades, all in the same factory. Yes, one factory is capable of hitting different price points to meat different grade standards. So are Grizzly tools and others made to the same grading standards? This question as far as I know has not been answered by any independent testing. The FWW articles are nice, and they run a bit of wood through a machine, but its been a while since they took one apart and inspected it bolt for bolt. Its a question many would like answered dead on honest in independent testing, others could very much care less.

In my case I can compare a Grizzly power feeder side by side with a Steff as they sit next to each other on the shop floor. To me the Steff was a better value even at a higher MSRP, but when I bought the Grizzly I only had enough money for it, so it was buy it or wait, and I had a job that required the feeder. Having the choice was good for me.

And I can compare the condition upon receipt of a motor from Baldor and a motor from Grizzly. The Baldor was a 10HP 3phase weighting over #150, and it was in a double walled card board box almost as rigid as MDF, with a 5/8 chip board base, encased in a closed cell foam cocoon sprayed into a plastic bag which form fitted the carton perfectly. It was built to take a hit from a fork lift or a drop from a tail gate and survive undamaged. It arrived in perfect order. My motor from Grizzly was floating around in a basic cardboard box surrounded by peanuts. They had settled a bit. There was no obvious serious damage to the box. The motor mount was a bit tweaked, and the control box had a good dent on it. Me, not being much concerned about aesthetics in most cases, wired it up, fired it up, and it runs very well. I kept it no complaints.

The Baldor was over $700. The Grizzly, $120? At the price of the Grizzly I could care less about the minor dings, just a head scratcher. What would it take to make that NOT happen? If the Baldor had been anything but pristine, it would have been returned promptly. Does paying more mean better packaging? Almost always yes. Does it garuntee safe arrival? No, but your odds are better. I happen to work for a company that ships goods over seas...yes..hard to believe but we MAKE things here and send them to OTHER countries! And we crate them. I have worked in crating during slow periods. An average crate costs the customer $600. Want it crated better? It costs more.

[Andrew Joiner]

We have come a long ways since then and are larger than Delta, Powermatic and almost all others in this business for a reason.


What companies in the business are larger than Grizzly?

[Paul Johnstone]

It was raining, the driver, who was very friendly, did try but with the rain he got stuck in my drive and yard and did a lot of damage. He had to be pulled out by a wrecker. They also did damage to my yard.


I'm sorry you had trouble.. but the company tried to help you out. They ended up getting stuck with a towing bill, since they tried to back into your driveway in the rain. I understand that it's best to try to make the customer happy, but they were stuck in a no win situation here.
Anyhow, I'm glad you got your machine in and out of the rain. Sorry it was so difficult..

When my 20" planer was delivered, the truck driver was an elderly guy.. I got stuck getting the thing out myself, which was not pleasant either. I guess the point is that most of the time the drivers can accomodate you, but part of mail ordering tools is that it's a bit of a crapshoot. As someone else said, if you want a guarantee that things will go smoothly, you can have the frieght company leave your tool at the dock and arrange for your own movers to pick it up.. It's more expensive that way, but at least you are guaranteed to have things go smoothly, instead of being stuck with the risk.

[Robert foster]

Paul: I have learned my lesson. Don't expect anything from any body or company.

Bob

[Paul Johnstone]

Paul: I have learned my lesson. Don't expect anything from any body or company.

Bob

Yea, I agree with that.. I didn't mean to sound harsh in my replies.
Glad your machine is up and running :)

[Will Overton]

Robert,

Is that a paved driveway that got damages?
Or, did the truck get stuck in the mud, that passes for a driveway?

If it's a paved driveway, maybe the company should put something toward fixing it. If it's just dirt, I'd be thankful to the driver for even taking a chance, just to help you out.

[Bart Leetch]

Oh yes, great old memories. I remember that test very well, although not quite as bad as you describe it. That test was done about 25 or 26 years ago, If I recall correctly, and the difference was that the Delta had three springs on the chipbreaker and ours had one. Within three weeks of that issue coming out, we sent all customers the extra chip breakers, made it a permanent change and never looked back!

We have come a long ways since then and are larger than Delta, Powermatic and almost all others in this business for a reason.

The issue about freight companies has been discussed at great length on Sawmill Creek. Do a search. I have posted many times, and so have many others. Just because you pay more for a product does not mean that you get better packaging. Many of you remember Lemkin - the guy to whom we shipped three jointer/planers (if I remember correctly) before telling him that he would be better off buying elsewhere. We had even recrated the replacement machine before shipping to him, yet the truckers/dock workers along the way managed to damage it. Anyway, some of you convinced him to pay more and buy MiniMax. He did. It came on a pallet with a cardboard box over the machine. The cardboard box had been stapled onto the jointer table at the factory!

There are guaranteed safe delivery options out there (like United Van lines door to door), but not commercially viable on a large scale, nor affordable for the customer.

Every time I purchase a Grizzly tool I get guaranteed safe delivery options . Yep I back my vehicle into the Bellingham Grizzly building & your people load me up, service with a smile.
I haul the tool home & it always arrives in perfect condition. I'll bet not many 14" band-saws get hauled home in the box on the back seat of a 4 door sedan.

[John Coloccia]

Every time I purchase a Grizzly tool I get guaranteed safe delivery options . Yep I back my vehicle into the Bellingham Grizzly building & your people load me up, service with a smile.
I haul the tool home & it always arrives in perfect condition. I'll bet not many 14" band-saws get hauled home in the box on the back seat of a 4 door sedan.

Driving the tools home yourself is not always the safe option. There's a certain table saw that comes to mind.... :p


:D

[Matt Meiser]

Driving the tools home yourself is not always the safe option. There's a certain table saw that comes to mind.... :p


:D

I was thinking the same thing reading Bart's post!

[Robert foster]

Will: the road and the driveway are gravel. The same as most of the off highway roads around here. My drive has supported Estes and FEDEX semi trucks and trailers, no problems. I learn from experience. Past experience indicated that there shouldn't be any problems. Evidently the truck driver thought so also as he looked at the situation before he drove up my drive. We both were wrong.
Some have indicated I might have picked it up at the terminal. The terminal is 100 miles away. I could have driven to Springfield which is about 300 miles away but I didn't want too and thought the delivery would be alright. I'm new at having heavy things delivered but with the two successful experiences before I didn't expect any problem.

Bob

[Robert foster]

Some of us live in the country. I have delivered my Steel City TS, 16"BS, Long Jointer, Drum sander. DC, Jet BS both ways and lots of other heavy things to my shop. No problems. I think the problem was that the delivery co Only has 53 foot trailers. I have had a 70 ft tractor/trailer turn around in my yard. He didn't get stuck or tear up my yard or drive. The problem was trying to deliver in the rain with a too long trailer.
Bob

[mike caruso]

Hey guys been reading all the replys and it looks like Grizzly is not the problem, But the way there machinery is shipped i have purchased 2 machines from them shaper, and jointer bought at diferent times but both arrived with boxes crushed the shaper was basically out of its carton i inspected and no damage but it is a horrible sight to open the back door of a trailer truck and see your new machine trashed because of poor shipping . Also there seems to be a problem with Grizzly advertising a machine and not haveing any in stock and not knowing when they will arive, Earlier this year i tried to order a cabinet saw from them and was told that the machine was back ordered and they really didn't no when they would be in, So i went with another brand ( picture ) and it was delivered in 4 days i wanted the Griz but they could not supply it . So here we go again ordered Griz G0698 Lathe on 9/4 told they are backordered till 9/17 and then will be shipped, called a couple days before to confirm and was told backordered till 10/29 now that almost 2 months for a machine they have been selling since 1/1
Is it me or are they under estimateing the popularity of there machinery ?Pretty soon all the manufactures will be discounting for the holidays and if the Jet 1642 comes down to a comparable price Guess what ???? Griz will have lost 2 sales because they could not deliver what they advertise.
Michael !!!!

[michael case]

Agree with you Mike,

Got a jointer from Griz. The heavy bed crate was fine, but the stand and motor were wrecked. Griz was great about helping out. One piece of advice to all Griz customers ALWAYS note any damage no matter how small (even a little scuff on the box - any indication of mishandling whatsoever) and have the shipper sign an acknowledgement of the damage. This lets Grizzly get the shippers to pay for their carelessness. Clearly, shipping damage is all too common.