First "Commissioned" Project (Tudor Door)....Questions

[Will Hon]

So, my boss at my day job found out that I do woodworking as a hobby on the side. He asked me if I would be interested in building a Tudor Style Storm Door for the front of his "extremely nice" home. He wants me to put together an expense sheet + labor on what it would take for me to do it. Again, I am only building the frame (like in the second image), and he is purchasing the glass for it.

He has a doorway similar to this one:
http://www.oceanvillemason.com/images/400_Tudor_ARch_web.jpg

This is what he wants it too look like (this is not a tudor arch of course)
http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff364/willhon/image002.jpg

QUESTIONS:
What would you charge to do such a project? (On top of Materials)
What wood would you recommend using? (Kansas City, MO)
What books/links/resources would you recommend for building doors such as this? --obviously there will be some special preparations for holding the glass in place, etc.

WHAT ELSE AM I MISSING/NOT THINKING OF???

[David Prince]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but maybe you are in over your head if you are asking these questions.

This type of project could have the potential to go bad for you!

[Bruce Page]

I'm not seeing a second image.

[Will Hon]

David, no offense taken. Its not really a question of having the "right" tools for the job, as I don't think its anything I cant handle with a planer/jointer/tablesaw/mortiser/drill press/router... unless i'm mistaken? I would think the only "kind of question" that would make sound incapable of pulling off the project would be:

"what wood would YOU use?"

and the obvious answer is Teak, but.... that obviously an exotic and subsequently expensive hardwood, and maybe someone knows a cheaper alternative that when treated/sealed properly would get the job done. I have personally mostly dealt with Walnut and QS Oak because they are relatively cheap here. Obviously Oak is an extremely porous wood that would not do well in our wet climate.

Other than that I am really just trying to gauge what most other hobby or professional woodworkers alike would bill for their labor on such a project.

[David Prince]

A door like this could move around alot and if it isn't put together correctly could cause pre-mature failure. There isn't a lot of room for mistake and your boss has to live with the consequences. Now, if the boss isn't happy... you know what happens next.

I have never seen your work or shop, so I am not judging your skill level or tool arsenal, but if you haven't done a door like this or have a good idea of how you are planning to do it, it isn't just one of those projects that you just do and hope for the best.

Bottom line... Exterior wooden doors have the potential for failure on multiple levels and aren't considered entry level projects!

Tell your boss you will build him a home entertainment center instead.

[Prashun Patel]

Is it an option to choose wood to match the existing door? I'd choose the wood species, color and finish based on that.

IMHO, the challenging part won't be making the door.

The hardest part (for me) would be making the jamb and finishing to taste.

I'd make sure I could do all of those parts first b4 committing.

Can't help you on the pricing.

[Will Hon]

David... thanks for your statements that have so far managed to answering so many errr... questions?

-Will

[Will Hon]

The hardest part (for me) would be making the jamb and finishing to taste.

I'd make sure I could do all of those parts first b4 committing.

Prashun,

X - I think the gameplan would be to make a full sized template of the doorway (especially the tudor arch) out of mdf/hardboard and site verify that the template fits the doorway.

X - Then mill all of the pieces, joining the rails and stiles using mortise and tenons... possibly pinning them

X - The top "Arched" Rail would be left oversized and fitted perfectly to the door via the template and a flush trim bit in the ol' router.

[Prashun Patel]

The top "Arched" Rail would be left oversized and fitted perfectly to the door via the template and a flush trim bit in the ol' router.

Yeah, but how does it connect to the existing door frame? That frame is likely trimmed out and wide enough only for a single exterior door. When they put in storm doors, they are (usually) contained in their own frame and jamb. How will that assembly look and be connected to the rest of the jamb? I'm not an expert; perhaps this is not a problem.

[Tom McMahon]

In order to price a job like this you need to calculate a shop rate for your shop. The shop rate should include all your expenses to run the shop, electric, rent, supplies, labor etc. If you really want to make money doing this you need to also include things like return on investment and opportunity costs. Once you have your shop rate it's easy to bid a job.

shop rate x hours + materials + profit = bid

My shop rate is $45 per hour. I would estimate at 20 hours. Guessing $200 for material.

45x20+200+10%=$1210
Remember you are not competing with the big box stores you are doing custom work it should cost more unless you are doing the client a favor, you should still get your real costs back and they are more than you think if you figure it out for real.
As to material many high end exterior doors are made from mahogany, white oak, teak, red elm are all water and rot resistant.

[Richard Wolf]

I think Tom has it about right from a price point. It looks like a $1200 door. I think you should be using mahogany of some type. The key to doors are deep mortise and tenons. Here's a tip, once you settle on a price, forget about the money, do the best job you can and take as much time as you need. The quality of the door is what counts. It is no excuse to say, "I only got $1200 for the door so I didn't do the really best I could."
Good luck with it.

Richard

[Peter Pedisich]

Will,

I made a storm door and side light, though not an arch-top like you are, and the time that went into it was 60% design and planning, 10% construction, and 25% painting, and 5% hanging.
I put in more than 20 hours, as my shop time is never in big chunks, and set-up each time is a time killer.
Storm window glass you may want tempered (I did) and it's big $$.
How will you secure the glass/screens and make it easy to swap?
For joinery I used big deep loose tenons - extra long router bit needed - more $.
Quality hinges/latches/hardware is more $$.

I bought a scratch-n-dent hollow core door at Lowes to have a flat worktable, which is essential, and it worked well.

Oh, I used white pine, but for staining I'd use Mahagony, cypress, or some tropical hardwood.


I'd do it all again, but I'd charge 5 times as much this time.

Good luck,

Pete

[Roger Jensen]

I think I'd have to agree with David on this one. If you haven't built doors before and aren't familiar with wood movement, door stresses, etc. I don't think you know what you're getting into. I'd thank him for considering you for the job but you don't want to risk something going wrong. Personally, I rather do something I was 99% sure I could do a great job on the first one.

He may consider you a hobbyist now, but as soon as you quote him $1200 you're a professional woodworker and he'll expect professional results.

Just my two cents - he's your boss!

[george wilson]

I have a large 19th.C. carpentry book that says"NEVER GUARANTEE AN OAK DOOR." When I first came to Colonial Williamsburg as the Master Musical Instrument Maker,my first assignment was to make a large harpsichord for the Music Teacher's Room.

I bought some beautiful quartered white oak boards about 16" wide. (Many harpsichords were oak veneered with mahogany in 18th.C. England. They no doubt had properly seasoned oak,acclimated to the climate.) I had them in my shop,but every week they would move in a different way. Curving one way,then another every week. This oak was kiln dried. I hadn't time to mess around,so I used mahogany instead.
,and veneered it with figured mahogany panels.

I know Colonial Williamsburg has made many exterior doors from mahogany. I recommend you use it.

[keith micinski]

How on earth is this guy ever going to learn how to make a door if all you guy's keep saying is "if you don't have experience then don't do it"? This web site was designed to be a source of information, not a source of telling people what they can and cannot do. He asked three specific questions and one open for opinions. Even if you guys don't think he is up to doing this project, answering his questions might help other people who are and have some of the same concerns. And since when did making a storm door, arch or not, become the hardest task in the world? I would think 800 is a more reasonable figure considering you are using this as a learning experience and could also add this to your portfolio to show people what you are capable of. If you use Mahogany or Oak I would suggest using a finish from General Finishes called Outdoor Oil. Using something that is going to buildup like spar varnish is a mistake. The oil finish only takes 20 minutes every two years to clean up and wipe on as opposed to sanding. As far as links go I don't really have any.

[Frank Drew]

Will,

Another vote for Mahogany.

And I agree with the sentiment that it's better to pass on a job than to take one beyond your current skill level if it means not doing a very good job. On the other hand, we expand our capabilities by stretching, working outside our comfort levels, so you'll be the best judge whether or not to take on this commission.

[Roger Jensen]

Please accept my apologies for my cautionary note. The door pictured in Will's first request looks pretty involved for a first project. I guess I was answering for myself, as I would build one or two more modest doors before I tackled something like this for someone else. Anyway - it's his project to decide.

I am not aware of any books or links. Norm made one on NYW a couple of years ago and you can get the video. I don't recall all the details, but I think he may have used the Freud door router bits. I'm not sure what their maximum thickness is, that looks like a 1 3/4" - 2" thick door in the picture. A shaper may be required. I don't know if the technique Norm used is appropriate for this style/size door.

Roger

[Peter Quinn]

Will, you can do it, and we can help. Don't ever let them tell you other wise. You will probably make $2.75 per hour and want to quit wood working by the time its over, but you can do it.:D

I'd figure on using mahogany, preferably South American, and preferably QS pattern grade. African mahogany can work as well if you can source the best material. Teak is not particularly stable, is a BIG STINKING PAIN IN BUTT to mill (carbide on everything), shape and glue, and doesn't finish well either. It weathers like a bear, but thats not always a great quality in a door, because it often looks like a bear after a few years and that house doesn't have the "Old silver teak park bench" look to me. But don't take my word for it, eat some yourself! So mahogany works for me, Vertical grain Fir can also be a good choice in a more covered location. And spanish cedar might do it for a lightly used door, as might Western red cedar or redwood, but these are both soft so not good for heavy use. WO makes great wine barrels, and might work for a storm door if QS. But "Heavy like a draw bridge" is not a feature I personally like in a storm door.

Tom's estimates are right on in my book. You might bump both your materials costs and labor hours up a bit, depends on materials and the method of fixing the screen/storm panels. This can get involved, look at the hardware choices first. Simple brass turnbuckles are quick, other things are not so quick! There are some great half round hidden clip things and spring pins that aren't that much fun to install but work well, and you can make a mitered frame to hold aluminum panels in place but hide them, because nothing says "tacky" like seeing an aluminum storm panel on a custom hardwood storm door. Most traditional storms hang on butt hinges mortised into the existing jamb, a second jamb is not necessary, but good door hanging skills are, especially with that tudor arch in play, so consider that. Are you hanging it, or is a professional carpenter doing that?

I think you're on track with templating. I'd template half the arch and see first if its symmetrical. If so great, if not scribe two half templates, put them together as a whole, make sure this whole fits well, subtract your gap, your golden. I'd figure 5 hours alone just for templating potentially. Make the arch and story poles for the sides, leave the bottom a bit long. Figure that much time again for design and drawings at least. 15 hours to build the door maybe? First time, you fret every detail, make a few mistakes, maybe more time.

Are you finishing it? Add more hours for that. And good finish ain't cheap, and a good finishing schedule takes TIME, so charge for that if its included, and don't warranty ANYTHING if it isn't. This kind of thing gets expensive, so you have a choice. Charge a fair price and see if this guy really wants to hire a good wood worker to make a custom door or is just trolling for a bargain, or work out a price he can live with to get the job because you really want to take a shot at making it. I am presently making an entry door for a neighbor at almost half what its generally worth locally, because I'm bored at work and just wanted to make a door! So I't won't make me rich, but my materials are covered and somebody i like gets a nice door! Not a great business deal, but not a loser either in the greater scheme of things.

Construction? Not that complicated. Just a big silly frame, mortises and tennons or dowels (more than strong enough for a storm door), clamps, keep it square, gluing on the arch is a bit of a thing but not terrible either, some rabbits, some flush trimming, some BS work. Its not rocket science, just a lot of simple details strung together.Remember at its core a door is a functional utilitarian item that must remain square and flat to work properly and close properly, so those things must be handled well for a good job.

Books? There are a couple on door making, but none that cover storms that I know of. Also remember that it is not the primary door, it is not a portal on a submarine, its primary function is to keep out bugs in summer and slow down drafts in winter. Good luck and I'd love to hear what you decide.

[keith micinski]

Excellent, but more importantly a very helpful reply Peter.

[Dave Sabo]

My shop rate is $45 per hour. I would estimate at 20 hours. Guessing $200 for material.

Tom you are one speedy carpenter.

$200 ??? I'd love to know where you are going to get 8/4 material let alone Mahogany in sufficient quantity to make a door like this??? Don't forget waterproof glue or epoxy will come to @ 10% of 200 bucks.

This is a $1500 door ( no frame) easy.

Don't forget the special clamps or the jig you're going to need to build to clamp that radius work !

[Frank Drew]

A storm door won't finish out as thick as an exterior door, so starting out with straight 6/4 material should be sufficient; mahogany is expensive but it's not impossible to find, especially in the narrow widths suitable for a door.

As for those who offered friendly words of caution to Will for taking on a somewhat ambitious project in what might be the early stages of his development as a woodworker, I don't think they were at all out of line or have anything to apologize for. I'm all for helping folks along as they come up, but if Will is just starting out in the work (?), I probably wouldn't give him $1200 of my money to make something that will be the first thing people see as they walk up to my house, not when there are skilled shops available that do this kind of job every day -- let's be real here, people. If Will takes on this job and does a good job, then more power to him, but IMO the point remains.

There used to be a time in this country when craftsmen actually spent years learning their trades before setting up on their own and taking on paid commissions. That's still the norm in Germany and Japan, two countries with strong craft traditions, and excellent training and apprentice programs.

[Rick Gooden]

I agree that genuine mahogany would be the best choice, african mahogany also works well. I also have had very good results with General Finishes Outdoor Oil for entry doors. This looks like a nice project to get involved with. You seem to believe you have the skills and equipment so I say go for it. Make sure you have a dead flat surface to do the glue up on (torsion boxes work very well), take your time and ask plenty of questions as you go. Good quality research can be the equal to experience.

[keith micinski]

Frank, your missing the point. He wasn't asking for people to give him opinions on what they think his skill level is. He was asking advice on how to make a door. If he was asking if it was hard to do and someone wanted to point out that for some reason a storm door is somehow super difficult ( even though all it really is is a square frame holding a screen and a piece of glass) that would have been fine. But telling someone not to do something because it might be hard seems like a waste of everyones time. The "Best" way to learn is to fail. If for some reason you get lucky and you get it right the first time then consider it a good experience and try the next thing.

[Tom McMahon]

My earlier post was not meant to be an actual estimate. I was trying to show how to figure it out. I still think it is important to calculate your own shop rate and get real material costs. The formula is right not the numbers.

[David Prince]

Just to clarify. I am not against having the OP build this door. Go ahead and have fun. I think if you put your time and effort into it you could end up with a good finished product.

Now, if you were doing this for some joe down the street and he wanted to give you a chance to do it then fine.

The issue I have is that you are combining a project for your BOSS along with a project you have MINIMAL experience with. (I am assuming the minimal experience just because of the questions you asked) I don't know your boss, but I would assume that he will lose confidence in you if you fail. (again, minimal experience shifts the burden towards failure)

A project like this is challenging, but is more unpredictable with wood movement. It may turn out great in your shop. It may look great installed. BUT, it MIGHT do some crazy stuff when it is exposed to the elements. That is out of your control and something you try to anticipate, but the bottom line is that your boss could hold some resentment that he spent $1500+ for a door that goes to crap.

I would say for you to build a door for yourself and hang it on your house and let is hang for a couple of years and see if it works. Has everything you have built turned out exactly as planned and stayed that way?

Professional door builders know how to anticipate for a worst case and compensate for that. If they fail they don't have to face their boss every day and risk having the boss harbor some resentment or loss of faith in their employee.

My caution was pointed directly at the fact that it was for your boss. That raises the bar a bit. You could insult him with your price, your quality, the time it takes, the unpredictable wood, or complete failure if you fail to deliver because it doesn't work out.

[Frank Drew]

Frank, your missing the point. He wasn't asking for people to give him opinions on what they think his skill level is. He was asking advice on how to make a door.

Keith, since several here had the same impulse to suggest Will give careful thought before taking on this job, I think we can consider it a legitimate thread drift; also, no one said DON'T do it, just think carefully before agreeing to do it.

I don't want to personalize this to Will, who, for all I know, might be an absolute prodigy at woodworking; I think in general, however, that if someone is offering you a substantial amount of money to do a piece of work (which moves this from hobby to professional woodworking), you ought have a good idea how to do the job before agreeing to take it on.

You and I might have to agree to disagree how seriously we take professional woodworking.

[george wilson]

Keith,are you the self appointed judge of this guy's post? My advice to use mahogany was perfectly sound. For your info.,the Smithsonian is STILL trying to find a finish that will ensure absolute stability and protection.

I wouldn't use oak,spar varnished or not. the millwork shop in Williamsburg is one of the best around,with a fine architectural staff to advise them. Use mahogany.

[Frank Drew]

David,

It's not just that this is a commission for the guy who signs his paychecks, in reality it's a commission for the wife of the guy who signs his paychecks (since the wives are the ultimate arbiters of all things house)!!

[george wilson]

A rather strange thing they did in the millwork shop last year was to make a fine mahogany door. Then,they faux finished it to LOOK LIKE MAHOGANY!!!

The reason was,there is historic mention of there being a door painted to look like mahogany in the 18th.C.. Yet,the mill work shop wanted to use mahogany for stability,painted or not. And,it was special,high grade mahogany that the lumber yard got specially for them.

[keith micinski]

Actually several people did say don't do it. Also the argument that "every one is doing it so" is well, self explanatory. No George, I was simply pointing out that answering someones question and giving your opinion on an unrelated topic are not the same thing. I have no problem with him using mahogany. I'm not sure where you got that from but if I gave that impression I apologize. I don't need the Smithsonian to tell me that outdoor oil finish is the best finish to use for a door because it is the easiest to maintain and provides excellent protection. Especially if it is going to be south facing door. I won't waste my time anymore arguing things that aren't what the questions were about. Then I would not be helpful to the original poster either.

[george wilson]

I didn't say you argued with my mahogany suggestion. I just don't see that cautioning the guy is harmful. He has expressed some doubt about doing it,apparently,and could get into trouble if the door didn't work out. After all,he did ask a lot of questions that a more experienced door builder wouldn't need to ask.

[Lynn Floyd]

I have been building custom doors and windows for 32 years and I think you can build this door. What to charge is somewhat subjective. I would guess about 70 bd ft of 8/4 lumber for the door proper. I'm paying about $7.50 for South American mahogany and around $4.75 or so for African. I would use the Honduran. I would estimate 20 to 24 hours to build it. This would depend entirely on your tools and methods and energy. Only you can decide what your time is worth.
On construction let me offer a couple of thoughts.
1. Make a pattern to fit the existing frame and lay out the stiles and rails on the pattern.
2. Join the top rail to the straight part of the stile either by tenoning into it at an angle or by setting it right on top with a good finger joint. Stick them after making a tight, strong joint. I would make a template from mdf to guide the router or shaper. They can be joined at the top with a loose tenon.These J-stiles are important.
3. Make good deep mortises - 3 1/2 or 4 inches - and get comfortable fitting rail tenons.
4. Raise your panels for an easy, not sloppy, fit into the sticking.
5. Pull the whole thing up dry (by yourself if you're going to be alone) and make sure everything fits comfortably.
6. Use a glue with good open time. Don't use something like Franklin that sets up too fast. Powdered resin will work well. Make sure it's waterproof.
You can do this if you plan properly and have the tools. It doesn't take a lot.
Make test joints and get a feel for the work.
Good luck and success.
Lynn

[Stephen Cherry]

Has anyone noticed the projection of the doorknob and the nice molding around the door? It dosn't look like there is room for a storm door, and if there is, it needs to be thin.

Personally, I would just skip this whole proposition. It's really not worth jeopardizing your day job experimenting with your bosses high dollar door. And he will hold a grudge.

But,:

http://www.owwm.com/pubs/detail.aspx?id=1060

for a finish, you want some type of catalyzed varnish, I've used awlbrite, and it is OK.

Plus, you may want to consider a lamination process, wood-epoxy with alternating strips forming the joints. Vacuum bagging onto a flat surface with a slow epoxy. You could even have some layers of fiberglass cloth in there for strength. This would ensure dimensional stability. West system has books on how to do this. Just an idea.

[Justin Bukoski]

Stephen, I don't think that's the actual door but a picture of something similar. I'm guessing he didn't want to post a pic of the boss' front door. Read his post carefully. You do raise a good point about fishing in the company pool though...

Lynn, frankly we can delete all the other posts in this thread but yours. Spot on. The only thing I'll say is this: mahogany is the correct choice no doubt but shouldn't we be asking what the front door is made out of? I think you'd want to have either the same wood or something close. After all, the door itself has held up pretty well (has it?) and I assume the storm door is for a cross breeze?

[Matt Evans]

QUESTIONS:
What would you charge to do such a project? (On top of Materials)
What wood would you recommend using? (Kansas City, MO)
What books/links/resources would you recommend for building doors such as this? --obviously there will be some special preparations for holding the glass in place, etc.

WHAT ELSE AM I MISSING/NOT THINKING OF???

The formula others are using is a good one. I don't charge as much as they are quoting, but its close.

Remember to add a percentage of waste to your stock and materials order. I use about 10-15% depending on the job. With those arches I would lean towards 15%. . .

Mahogany is the wood of choice here. South american if you can get it, but african will work. A word of warning. . .African Mahogany is more prone to tearout, in my experience. It requires very sharp tools.

resources? I would say the best resource is right here on SMC. Folks like Lynn and George tend to have all sorts of tips when questions are asked. I even occasionally have an answer for folks.

I would look into your finish. It may be a lot more expensive than you might think, so don't ball park it. Do the same with any hardware (hinges and latches, etc.)

Lynn had some really good suggestions. Follow those for the door and you ought to be alright.

I am curious as to the jamb. Are you making an extension jamb and attaching the door to that? What material surrounds the existing door?

Design wise I would do one of a couple things. If you are familiar with CAD, draw the door, get the plans approved by your customer, then go ahead with it. If not, find someone who is to draw it out for you. It is always better to have an approved, signed drawing than not, and a CAD drawing is going to be best for this. (sketchup is also good, just make sure it looks professional.)

Get a list of all your materials. This includes templates, screws, glue, jigs, blades, bits, any specialty items you need for the job, finish, hardware, caulk, lumber, packing materials for when you deliver the item, gas if you have to haul things to and from a jobsite, etc.

Make it a very complete, detailed list. this is your true materials/consumables cost. That is what you need to bill your customer for.

I tend to charge my customers materials + 10% up front, the rest on delivery/installation. On larger jobs I set up an agreement where I get the deposit + 10% up front, then at the "Halfway point" 40%, and the remaining 50% on completion.

Everyone does that differently, but I find it works for me.

Hope that helped.

[Prashun Patel]

Off topic alert:

Man, I gotta say THIS is why I love this forum.

Whether you do it or don't do it, Wil, you'll go in or stay home with your eyes open. I betcha didn't think your original post would be this controversial!!!

If yr taking votes, my vote is for you to do it. But advise yr boss y'll do it at cost of materials this time. The good will it might generate at work is probably more than the few hundred $$ you might receive on this job. Further, the experience of 'building for someone else' will yield valuable lessons for next time.

[Peter Quinn]

For materials for the storm I'd figure 25-30BF plus materials for templates and patterns in the shop. I think Lynn's 70BF estimate was for the primary door at 1 3/4" thickness with raised panels? Most storms I've seen are 1 1/8"-1 1/2" thickness, tending on the thinner side, and most of the opening is glass unless there is a lower panel, but the arch eats up material in waste.

[Lynn Floyd]

Peter, of course you're right about the amount of material, assuming the door has more glass than panels. If the door is as much as 1 1/2" thick, you will still have to use 8/4 material. If you use 6/4 it must be pretty flat to start with. Be careful about taking thick lumber, say 8/4, down to 1 3/8 or less, as it may decide to warp a little. The comment about the hardware is well advised. I've run into trouble with screen door hardware before.
Lynn

[Stephen Cherry]

Keith,are you the self appointed judge of this guy's post? My advice to use mahogany was perfectly sound. For your info.,the Smithsonian is STILL trying to find a finish that will ensure absolute stability and protection.

I wouldn't use oak,spar varnished or not. the millwork shop in Williamsburg is one of the best around,with a fine architectural staff to advise them. Use mahogany.

Wouldn't mahogany be the first choice for this? Also, spar varnish is a short lived solution in the high UV boating world. Something like Awlbrite would at least give some time, but eventually the sun will win.

[george wilson]

I am not a house carpenter I was the musical instrument maker for Colonial Williamsburg from 1970-86. Then,got begged into becoming toolmaker from 86- 2009. However,the millwork shop was close to mine,and I was in there nearly every day to use a larger machine,or to say hi. I saw what they were doing.

Are you asking about a storm door now,Stephen? I'd say mahogany for it,too. I already recommended mahogany for the main door.

I'm having a senior moment: What is that varnish that lasts about twice as long as Spar varnish?

[Greg Book]

Is it a single tudor door, or a two-door tudor door?

I have faith in this guy. One of the first 'commissioned' pieces I did was for my high school guidance counselor's husband. He owned a textile mill and needed a wooden shelf with dozens of cubby holes. Being only 15, I said sure! I had no idea what I was doing, and my quality was terrible, It was bent, I had mistakenly cut dados on the outside of the case, etc. But... I learned from it.

[Ryan Eldridge]

I was reading this through this morning and I like what Mr. Patel said, do it for the cost of the materials.

If it turns out great, and it most likely will, you will get a lot of people wanting you to build something for them. Also, your boss will think highly of you when it comes to bonus time and job performance time.

If it does not work out, you can reimburse your boss for the materials and then make something else with all the Mahogany that you have.

I say do it, but who am I right?

[Peter Quinn]

So now I'm imagining I were making this storm and planning it out in my head, just for giggles. I'm thinking one of the most difficult aspects would be stops to match that tudor arch! Your probably going to have to make stops, they will have to look seamless, and that will require a bent lamination and a very accurate form. That will definitely add to the cost of this job!

I hear you on the hardware Lynn. Every time we do one (its been a while in the present economy) we have to stop and remember how the heck to install those half moon cam things that drop into the little slots, or those hidden turn buckles with the grommets that only give you one shot at assembly if they fit tight enough. Its like my first door every time!

I'd remember to grab a little poplar same thickness as the door for hardware install test pieces, like maybe 40BF!:eek:

[Todd Hoppe]

I say go for it, and nix the labor charges.

To make the template, why not just trace the actual door? (I haven:t built such a door, but that seems like it would be the easiest route to go...)

[Steven J Corpstein]

Personally I think a storm door would ruin the look of the entryway on the house and maybe cheapen it. The door by itself makes a statement, and covering it with a storm door (no matter how well made) will kill the affect of the house. Maybe rather than making a storm door for your Boss, you ought to talk him out of it and explain the aesthetics. Just my $0.02

[Frank Drew]

Stephen, I agree that the showpiece (and presumably $$$) main door will largely disappear with the storm door in place, but since Will didn't mention screens in his posts it's possible that his boss only wants the door in place during the winter and will take it down for much of the year; if that's the case, the removable screen/storm hardware won't be an issue, greatly simplifying construction.

[Roger Jensen]

We need the feature like Click-and-Clack on NPR where we re-visit an issue one year later and see how this all worked out! Will - please update this thread when you're done. We're all wishing you the best of luck.

Roger

[Peter Quinn]

I say go for it, and nix the labor charges.

To make the template, why not just trace the actual door? (I haven:t built such a door, but that seems like it would be the easiest route to go...)

That can work, but it depends on how the jamb was made and how accurate the work is. Many doors have a 1/2" rabbit in the jamb for draft check and weather gasket, also as a stop, so the storm if it sits to the exterior in the existing jamb will be 1" narrower and follow a curve with 1/2" less radius minus any gap, typically 1/8". So you can trace the door but you will have to adjust this tracing to make your actual template.

Also, the storm will live in a fixed position to the exterior. You would like to think that the jamb moves from interior walls to exterior in perfectly square manner, but often this is not the case. So aside from having to scale the storm down from the prime door you will also have to verify any template and adjust to fit the actual opening conditions. It might be easier to trace the actual profile of the exterior jamb lining using a block of 1/8" to offset your pencil line or a scribe and go from there.