Question for Keeton & DeCristophoro on finials

[Roger Chandler]

John,

When you do finials, do you use full size turning tools, or do you use mini tools? I have a mini set I bought a few years ago, but they have mainly been stored away in a drawer. I have used the small parting tool a few times when I was too near the chuck to use a full size.

I was wondering if the mini tools might give finer detail on the finial, and allow a more crisp transition from one feature to the next?

David, I was wondering what you use as well for your "signature pedestals." How do you get fine detail on your work?

[John Keeton]

Roger, I use five tools for finials. I rough turn with a Thompson 3/8" spindle gouge, I do most of the detail work with a 3/8" Thompson detail gouge, and I have two Thompson 1/4" detail gouges - one ground with a more round nose than the other. I use these for the finer details.

I also use the two 1/4" detail gouges as negative rake scrapers by turning them over. I do this on other work as well, with the spindle gouge. Works well to take tool marks out of concave surfaces.

For the deep cuts, I have two "vortex" type tools that I use - they were made from a pair of BB gouges I no longer used. Email me and remind me and I will send you a pic of them.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I use five tools for finials. I rough turn with a Thompson 3/8" spindle gouge, I do most of the detail work with a 3/8" Thompson detail gouge, and I have two Thompson 1/4" detail gouges - one ground with a more round nose than the other. I use these for the finer details.

I also use the two 1/4" detail gouges as negative rake scrapers by turning them over. I do this on other work as well, with the spindle gouge. Works well to take tool marks out of concave surfaces.

For the deep cuts, I have two "vortex" type tools that I use - they were made from a pair of BB gouges I no longer used. Email me and remind me and I will send you a pic of them.

Thanks John,

Cindy Drozda has a "Vortex tool" on the market , if I recall correctly. It will be interesting to see yours, and see if the grinds are similar.

Doug Thompson is coming to our Va. symposium in October, and I think I am going to have to pick up a couple of gouges from him. I think a detail gouge might be the ticket and I want a 5/8" V flute bowl gouge as well.

[John Keeton]

Roger, the 5/8" V would be the one to get! The grind on my 'vortex' tools is different from Cindy's. She has a YouTube video on the sharpening of hers, and mine is sharpened the same way. However, hers is triangular in cross section, and mine is round on the bottom. She uses hers sometimes as a skew, and the triangular profile probably is helpful for that. I don't, and use mine only for detailing. I do use the swept back wing of my detail gouges to do a planning type cut similar to a skew, however, when doing the necks of the finials.

[David DeCristoforo]

Well, since you have seen fit to include me in this, I feel that it only fitting that I reply. My "go to" tools are:

A) A small skew with a very fine blade as shown in this thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=146591
I keep this razor sharp and use it for most of my detail cuts.

B) A small round nose tool that is shown in the same thread that I use for undercutting and small coves.

C) a 3/8" "bowl gouge" that I have ground with a fairly radical bevel to create a very fine radius at the tip of approximately 1/8".

Making or buying a tool similar to the Drozda "vortex" too is on my long list of things to do.

PS Please check the spelling of my last name...;)

[charlie knighton]

I also use the two 1/4" detail gouges as negative rake scrapers by turning them over. I do this on other work as well, with the spindle gouge. Works well to take tool marks out of concave surfaces.



John how rounded is the nose of the detail gouges you use doing this????

if you could show picture of gouge and how you use it upside down, thanks

[Roger Chandler]

David,

Thank you for responding. My sincerest apologies for mis-spelling your name, wasn't on purpose and from memory.........I tell ya, the older I'm getting the better my forgettor works! :o:o:o

The crisp detail that characterizes the pedestal and finial work that both you and John seem to obtain makes your work stand out.

I am getting ready to do a turning with some purple heart and yellow heart that will include a finial from some holly that John sent to me, and I wanted to give myself the best opportunity to get it the best I could, so that is my reason for trying to draw from those who have "achieved" in this area.

Sometime when you might have the time and perhaps the "want to," that 3/8 bowl gouge with the radical bevel would be good to see in picture, as that would explain to those like me who have need of visuals.

Thank you again, David.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Sometime when you might have the time...would be good to see in picture..."

I should be able to post a pic later in the day...

[Roger Chandler]

"Sometime when you might have the time...would be good to see in picture..."

I should be able to post a pic later in the day...

Bless you Sir! :):):)

[John Keeton]

John how rounded is the nose of the detail gouges you use doing this????

if you could show picture of gouge and how you use it upside down, thanksCharlie, here are the five tools I use from the top down -
3/8" spindle gouge reground for a 'vortex'
1/4" spindle gouge reground, but a little more acute angle
3/8" Thompson detail gouge
1/4" Thompson detail gouge
1/4" Thompson detail gouge

Side view -
162124

Top view -
162125

Note the top tool is rolled over a little in the bottom pic, and I apologize for the quality of the pics - tried without the flash and with, and it was difficult to get it right without some daylight.

Charlie, I didn't try to mock up a pic, but to use the detail gouge as a negative rake scraper, I just turn it over and lay it upside down on the tool rest at near level. Ease into the work with light sweeping cuts. It will shave the tool marks from the African Blackwood very nicely without fear of a catch.

Hope this helps.

JK

[David DeCristoforo]

Not nearly as fancy as John's. But FWIW...

162129

162130

[Roger Chandler]

Thank you David. That helps me understand your angle and how it gets in close.

[Roger Chandler]

Good stuff John! Thank you!

[Allen Neighbors]

Great thread, Roger! Thanks, from another guy that wants to learn. :)

[Roger Chandler]

Great thread, Roger! Thanks, from another guy that wants to learn. :)


Thank you Allen...............We can all learn from one another, and thankfully we have a kindred attraction to spinny wood!

[charlie knighton]

thanks John and David

[David DeCristoforo]

I realized after looking at the pics posted by John K. that I was trying to cut fine details with what amounted to "blunt instruments". This week I picked up a 1/8" bowl gouge and made two new "pointy" tools. The gouge is pictured as it came "out of the box" and needs to be reshaped a bit. But even with the "stock" grind, it cuts much finer than the one I was using. The "pointy tools" cut like a charm and make it much easier to "get in close". My skew works great but it's so easy to lop the head off a finial with it! I've been practicing with these and maybe I'll see an improvement in my actual fine detail work.

http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/pointing.jpg

[Roger Chandler]

That is a unique tool David. The one on the bottom of the pic really looks like it would get about as far in as one could get for fine detail.

This might be something a number of finial wannabees like me, should look seriously at. Thank you for sharing this. I don't see any reason this will not work well for fine detail, and it will probably ease the "hold my breath" while I try to get this cut syndrome.

[John Keeton]

Roger, I have found that when I use my 'pointy tools' I need to be very careful to not attempt to enter the tool into the work above center. In fact, just a smidge below center seems to work.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I need to be very careful to not attempt to enter the tool into the work above center..."

Funny... that's just what I discovered. Not in any pleasant manner either!

[Roger Chandler]

"...I need to be very careful to not attempt to enter the tool into the work above center..."

Funny... that's just what I discovered. Not in any pleasant manner either!


David & John,

I will take your advice and do my best to remember center or below. I have a gouge that I think I can use for grinding to this shape.

[Scott Hackler]

Is that bottom tool ground like a knife's edge? I'm thinking about reworking one of my newly made point tools into a knife like pointer.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Is that bottom tool ground like a knife's edge?"

It's more like a very fine triangle. The top is flat and the bottom is rounded. The middle one is the same basic profile but I started by drilling a small hole in the end of the steel rod first. It works great but does not hold an edge worth beans because the steel is too soft. I'm going to rustle up a piece of O-1 and make another.