carving wheat

[Robert Culver]

Im interested in learning to carve wheat on a saw handle. I have a few carving tools it looks like it is pretty simple. You had the right gouge. is there a typical Number that is recomended for this?

[Jonathan McCullough]

Not a gouge but a V-parting tool. Though not specified in great detail, here's (http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/jThompson/carving/carvingSawHandle/carvSawHandle.asp) how one guy did it.

[Andrew Gibson]

Looking at that tutorial, it looks pretty easy. I would guess that when carving the grains of wheat that you start at the tip and carve toward the stalk? I would think that would be the process of getting the right taper?

I might have to give this a try on my next saw handle. I just inhearted a saw that needs a new one and the origional has the carving.

[george wilson]

Wheat was originally carved on what was called a carving spindle. It looked like a long shaft buffer,except on the end was a V shaped multi toothed cutter rotating at high speed. It was about 1 1/2" in diameter. An experienced worker would run the item to be carved against this cutter manually. When I was young,I noticed the same carving on the little wooden arms sticking out at the very ends of upholstered chairs and counches made in the 30's or 40's.

This was noted to be a very dangerous machine which you dare not manage to get your sleeve or other parts of clothing snagged by. You could be very severely injured or killed by the powerful,high speed motor. If the cutter grabbed you,there was no getting away from it.

I used a cutter from one of those old machines for the cutter in my automatic tuning peg lathe.

[Brian Millspaw]

Here is a picture of my spindle carver, if anyone is interested. I will take a picture later of actually carving the wheat pattern.

I worked as the modelmaker in a carving factory, where I became aquainted with these machines. One time I turned to look at the part I was carving in a different light, and the next thing I know, I was flat on my back with the wind knocked out of me and my shirt was spinning above my face at 10,000 rpm.
Luckily I was unhurt, but my shirt was destroyed, the cutter had touched my sleeve and wound it it up in an instant.

These machines are capable of doing a lot of work, but you have to watch yourself. I worked as a carver at this plant for six years and when they went out of business I bought this and two custom made sanders that save me alot of time.
-Brian

[george wilson]

Lucky you,Brian!!! I've known 1 other old guy back in the 60's who carved at one of those machines. I guess he survived. But,he had lost about 2/3 of each finger on his left hand in a factory. He gave various stories about how it happened. Some said he stuck his hand in a jointer-the old square head type that would gobble you right up. He told me he fell down. Grabbing for something to keep from falling,he grabbed the bandsaw's running blade.

He still played the fiddle quite well with his numb,and the banjo too!!!:)

I really advise others to NOT try making one of these machines to use at home!

[Bill Dieckman]

A possible one-knife option is to look at chip carving technique. The knife used is a tad specialized but you might be able to do something workable with what is on-hand if this is a one-off dalliance with carving ;)

[george wilson]

I'd suggest coming at each wheat grain from each side with a gouge. It would help if the edge of the gouge were convex,though. You'd get very clean,consistent wheat grains that way,IF your gouge was very sharp.

[Robert Culver]

Thats exactly what Im refering to I just need to figure out what size and sweep would look correct. I need to dig out my guide of sweeps and see what my be close I wish I had a patern of some sort to match it up with. While im good at visualizing thinigs in my mind sometimes paterns are a better way to go.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Wheat was originally carved on what was called a carving spindle.

That would be practical only if you were doing it on a professional basis. A cursory examination of handles from several eras would indicate a rotating cutter head of some sort, but I had no idea how horrifyingly dangerous that thing looks.

I don't think that's the way they did it originally originally. If you look at some of the really old Disston handles though like the No. 12 at the Disstonian Institute (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/12page.html), it really looks like it was carved with a V-tool. Oops, and looking there for the link it says that "By the early 20th century, the carving was actually made with a power rotary tool." There's also a story around somewhere about how it was hard for Henry Disston to convince the workers to use this newfangled machine he imported from France called a "band saw" that would make cutting out the handle patterns much easier. I think either he or one of the "& Sons" had to demonstrate it and persuade them to use it.

Looking at the older, hand carved wheat patterns, I'd have to say they look more delicate, artistic, and French-inspired. For me they are reminiscent of Napoleon's drawing room at the Louvre, or the laurels on award medals given at 19th-century industrial exhibitions.

[Brian Millspaw]

Hi George, Yes lucky, one incident like that will make you pay attention for a long time.

I picked up an old handle to run the pattern on. If I had a whole cart of these to do, it would probably take less than 30 sec per side.

First is a closeup of the cutter, then two carving and the finished handle

The key to this machine is that there is NO vibration, Zero runout at the tip where the cutter is. Also the cutters have 8 - 12 wings which makes a smooth cut. The spindle runs around 9,000 rpm driven by a woven flat belt from the 12" dia motor pulley to the shaft. The bearings are high speed and must be oiled when you use it.

I also would not recommend trying to make one of these
Be safe

[john brenton]

not anywhere near as experienced or capable as the other posters here, but I made a couple pretty sweet wheat pattern on my saw handle using a small v-tool. I'm sorry I don't know what size it is, but the wing's are about 1/8th inch (pain in the butt to hone.) I've also used a small curved gouge on another wheat design that came out nice. Clearly the wheat grain came out with a more rounded shape and not like the older Disston carvings, but it was also alot easier to make that nice whispy end as the gouge scooped upward.

Just a thought.


Im interested in learning to carve wheat on a saw handle. I have a few carving tools it looks like it is pretty simple. You had the right gouge. is there a typical Number that is recomended for this?

[Marv Werner]

Hi Robert,

My first attempt at wheat carving was done using an exacto knife similar to a chip carving knife. It worked but was too slow and hurt my fingers.

I learned that carving on wood with hard grain was difficult, cutting through soft wood then hard wood. Also carving with the grain versus across the grain required different pressure. '

I wanted the wheat stalks to actually resemble a real stalk of wheat, not just a bunch of gouges scattered around on the handle that were different shapes and sizes. The saws made during the 1950,s come to mind. Horrible look'n things.

So I dug through my box of scrap metal and found a short piece of stainless steel tubing, 5/8" O.D. with a .040 wall thickness. I started hacksawing and grinding and filing and honing and reshaping until I had a short handled tool that I could use with one hand while I held the handle with the other hand.

It ended up looking like a strange gouge with an inside bevel. I did some practicing on some scrap wood of different types and did a few tweaks to the tool.

The goal when wheat carving is to be able to carve different size wheats. Be able to carve them close together and to orientate the wheats at a consistent angle to the stem down the center and from one wheat to the next.

When you bend a real wheat stalk, the outer wheats will splay out while on the inside of the bend or curve, the wheats will be somewhat compressed. I wanted to be able to accomplish that effect to some degree when carving a handle. Sometimes I accomplish it and sometimes not.

Here's a picture of the tool and some carving. The carved handle is an Atkin's floor saw. I was still in my practice mode when I did that one. Actually I'm still practicing. Each time I do one, I try to do it better.

The cutting edge on the tool must be kept razor sharp. The curvature on the cutting edge on the tool was formed over a 1" diameter steel rod held in a vise. The actual cutting edge was first ground on my grinder, then I filed the inside bevel with a round chainsaw file, then honed it to a sharp edge. Took some experimenting to get the right curvature.

[Bruce Haugen]

Marv,
I hadn't seen that one before, a really different handle and absolutely wonderful wheat pattern! That is fabulous work!

You da man!

[Gary Hodgin]

Marv,
That is one great looking handle.
gary

[Robert Culver]

Marv thats a great looking handle the wheat looks great thats pretty crafty tool also. Talk about not needing a 500.00 tool to do the job. I want to be just like you when I grow up.:)

[Tony Zaffuto]

Boy would I like to see a video of that tool in action Marv!

I have to disclose here that I have seen Marv's work up close (in fact only about an hour or so ago!). I had the esteemed sawsmith, Mike W. build me his version of a Disston #16 last year (or so). Mike engage Marv to do the wheat carving for the handle. Beautiful job Marv!

The Wenzlof is one of three saws Mike has done for me and is one of my favorite modern saws. The Disston #16, with the "let-in" style of handle and straight back is my favorite handsaw (I have at least a half dozen vintage 16s).

[Marv Werner]

Well, hello Tony.

Never knew who bought one of those saws. Nice to meet you.

We did two handles at the time, I suppose in case I screwed one up. I must admit, I was a bit nervous working on Mike's brand new handles. He does a wonderful job on them. Those handles are made from Swiss Pear. Great stuff to carve. Very dense grain.

Here's a picture of them right after I finished carving them.

Joe, did you see the post Mike posted on WoodCentral right after he finished making the saw?

Thanks Tony for all the kind words.:)

Marv

[David Weaver]

Marv - excellent looking wheat (that actually looks like wheat), and thanks for unlocking the secret on doing them accurately and quickly by hand. We were all 90 degrees off in thinking about what direction to punch the gouge into the wood.

For those of us less inclined, an incannel gouge with the top of the bevel cut back a little would maybe work. Just not with one hand.

[Marv Werner]

David,

Perhaps an incannel gouge would work but would be awkward to use with less control as to where to place the cutting edge. If used with both hands, the work piece would have to be secured somehow. The process that I use involves turning the handle around at least once for each wheat. Cut one side, turn the handle and cut the other side. Angle of the cutting tool is important and the depth of cut. This is important in maintaining consistent wheat length and width. I attempted to use a regular size gouge in the beginning. It was impossible to control. Not sure if the word "quickly" is the right word to describe carving an entire handle using my method. After doing lots of handles, I have it down to an average of about 45 minutes, that is if I don't take breaks and depending on my mood. :)

Doing it with a machine of course will be faster, but can it cut the wheats consistently close together without chipping out between wheat?. Some type woods are more subject to chipping in thin sections. Most carvers, as I understand, prefer to use basswood or woods with dense soft grain. Saw handles are made of many different woods. All these different woods require a versatile type tool.

It appears that wheat carving should be a simple thing to do, that is until one actually tries to do it. Like so many things of this nature, it is simple once all the kinks are worked out for the process. Sorta like filing saws. Once you learn all the various steps and why they must be done a certain way, plus some practice, it does become simple.

Marv

[David Weaver]

I can think of a million things that could go wrong, thus the questions. I can also imagine them going wrong on the second side and the second to last grain of wheat.

First thing I could think of with an incannel gouge would be overcutting at the edges of the bevel and having what looked like a fish with a tail in the front and the back instead of a grain of wheat.

Even if a machine could do as well, none of us have a machine to do it, so if we are ever going to try it (and I don't know if I ever will), it's nice to at least get 90% of the trial and error out of the way by learning from someone else who already did all of that, or we'd all still be rubbing sticks together to see if we could figure out how to make them hot enough to burn.

If I ever get a nice incannel gouge that's bent from abuse or otherwise mangled, I won't throw it away - I could always make a handle for the nub and grind it as it needs to be.

I'd consider 45 minutes for the quality of work plenty fast. Might sound like a long time to some, but when you start getting into details and concentrating and have no room for error, time always seems to go fast to me.

[Bob Glenn]

After reading this thread, I was wondering if a Dremel tool with appropiate cutter would work? Anyone tried it?

[Marv Werner]

David,

You hit it right on the nail..... after having spent hours making a handle, one slip with the carving tool can make a noticeable mess. That was the reason for my apprehension while carving each wheat on the Wenzloff handles. A big sigh of relief when I finished the last wheat. I considered it a great vote of confidence on Mike's part to trust me with his beautifully made handles.

My tool can also leave those little fish tails you mention. Magnification is a must for me and good lighting as well.

The process involves more than just cutting the wheats with the carving tool. Each wheat plus the line down the center must be burnished. I use an ordinary center punch. I have it ground to a sharp point. It does two things, it removes any uncut wood at the very bottom of the wheat and also smooths out those little fish tails. if there are any. You start getting those tails when you start rushing the job. The ends of the wheats can be made more pointed with the use of a knife blade. I use an exacto knife but even a pocket knife will do it. This can be done before or after the burnishing.

After the burnishing, a light sanding with about 340 grit sandpaper removes any raised edges, then a brisk steelwooling with 00 or 000 grade. This step rounds off the edges just a little and makes the wheats blend with the main surface to some degree.

Before I made the tool, I heard from a carver guy that a V tool would do it easier and faster. Of course I gave it a try. Didn't work for me. Trying to push a tool of that kind through a hard grain then into soft grain was basically uncontrollable. It has to be a curved type V tool so it can act like scoop, but when it exited the other end of the wheat, it would splitter to a small degree, or a lot, depending on the wood. Trying to gouge it half way then go in from the other end was very difficult to line up the two cuts. And gouging cross grain was much different than gouging with the grain. And to gouge the same depth each time was not something I could accomplish. Perhaps a professional carver can do it, but a professional carver I'm not.

I experimented with a number of other methods before settling on how I now do it. I even attempted using a Dremel tool. I now hate Dremel tools. Lots of trial and error was the journey.

Marv

[Marv Werner]

Glen,

Yes, I did try a Dremel tool. First of all, I could not find an appropriate cutter. Besides I hate the screaming, screeching ear splitting little poorly manufactured beasts. I have bought a number of them over the years and have yet to get one with a chuck that properly clamps the shank of a cutting tool. The one good thing about them is.... they are small enough I can throw them a long ways. :D

Marv

[Robert Culver]

Ok so I grabed some tools a fish tail gouge and a v- tool a block of cherry and headed out the door to give this a shot. First thing I found was the v-Tool have wont work well its not steep enough so I will be finding another. I had a nice fishtail gouge that was about the right size and Razer sharp. I was able to exacute a few nice grains but its pretty dificult to keep the proper shape and size not to mention easy to over cut. I will have to get my hands on some make errr. bigger glasses for sure. brings new light to marvs work. OMG. Im contaplating triing to make a tool such as the one he has shown. Wish I had a lathe Ack.

[Marv Werner]

Hi Robert,

If you use a V tool, it should be the curved type so you can use it as a scooper. However, at some point through the many wheats you will carve, one or more will chip or splinter out as the tool exits the the end of the wheat. One way to prevent the splintering is to scoop half way then turn the handle around and scoop in the other direction and hope the line up with the first scoop.

If you look closely at the tool I posted, you will see that the cutting edge as you look straight down on it is curved and at the outer tips at both sides there's a small radius. When you look straight down on a gouge it is straight across and at each side there's a point or sharp right angle. That shape is very limiting when carving a wheat. When I carve one side of the wheat, I don't push exactly straight down into the wood, I use a slight rocking back and forth motion. This is how I control the length of the wheat. The width of the wheat is determined by where I start the second cut away from the first cut. Before I start doing any carving I decide how big I want the wheats to be. The tool can carve very small wheats as well as large ones.

You can make the tool without the use of a lathe. The first tool I made I used the end of a shovel handle and drilled a 5/8" hole in it and merely press fit onto the tubing.

The pictures below are examples of smaller wheats. The one in the center is an experiment spacing the wheats a little more than usual and carving them small. The one on the right of course is the real thing. :D