Why does 9/4 curly maple cost more per bf than 4/4?

[Trever Williams]

I was at Wood World in Dallas, TX today. They had 4/4 curly maple for $9.00/bf and 9/4 curly maple for $20.00/bf. I asked the guy there why the 9/4 cost over twice as much as the 4/4 and he looked at me like I was stupid and said "Because its thicker obviously." I said a bf is a volume measurement right? He said yes, its length x width x thickness divided by 144. I said so it doesn't make sense to me that it costs over twice as much just because its thicker. He said well there's a lot about the lumber industry that doesn't make sense.

I left and didn't buy any of the $20.00/bf lumber but I got to thinking, if anything it seems like the 4/4 should cost more because they have to make more cuts at the sawmill to get it. What am I missing?

[russell lusthaus]

It takes longer to dry the wood when it is thicker, so the cost is higher - not to mention, that thicker wood is in more demand, so a premium is placed on it.

[Prashun Patel]

I don't know that it's in demand more. In addition to the longer drying time, I think that the supply of it is less because you require a clearer span of the tree.

It's the same reason some dealers charge more per bf for wide planks or why they discount 'shorts'.

I think sometimes 1/2" and 1/4" thick stock is slightly more expensive than 4/4 because of demand - and extra saw time as you cite.

[Charles Wiggins]

I think that the supply of it is less because you require a clearer span of the tree.

+1

The bigger the width or thickness, the larger the log would have to be in the first place. In other words, it is easier to find logs that will yeild 4/4 stock than in is to find logs that will yield 9/4 stock. Larger logs are rarer than thinner logs, and scarcity drives the price up. Or if you reverse the thing, more abundance drives the price down.

[Kevin Womer]

I was at Wood World in Dallas, TX today. They had 4/4 curly maple for $9.00/bf and 9/4 curly maple for $20.00/bf. I asked the guy there why the 9/4 cost over twice as much as the 4/4 and he looked at me like I was stupid and said "Because its thicker obviously." I said a bf is a volume measurement right? He said yes, its length x width x thickness divided by 144. I said so it doesn't make sense to me that it costs over twice as much just because its thicker. He said well there's a lot about the lumber industry that doesn't make sense.

I think you understand it perfectly, I just think their reasoning for charging a hight price might leave something to be desired. As other's have mentioned, it might be because of the extra time to dry and because of the way the log is utilized, but that is where my understanding get's a little hazzy...

[Randy Smith]

The answers already given are right on. You will also notice that 5/4 costs more than 4/4, and 8/4 is more than 5/4, etc. Being able to mill out a clear 9/4 chunk of lumber is not always so easy given the unpredictable quality of trees. Drying thicker lumber is much more time consuming - ties up your kiln longer than 4/4 would and the opportunities for damaging that fat lumber during drying is a risk that is factored into that price. If the price per bdft for 8/4 were the same as 4/4, then there would be no real incentive for anyone to mill 8/4 given the added kiln time, added potential to damage it during drying, not to mention added difficulties in handling it.

[glenn bradley]

+2 on "I think that the supply of it is less because you require a clearer span of the tree".

[Trever Williams]

Those all sound like good reasons to charge a little more, but not 2 times as much.

[Mike Cutler]

Trever

Into the equation would also go material handling cost and storage. That still must have been some pretty nice wood for that price though.
I've seen the bd/ft. cost the same sometimes despite thickness, when I do I buy all I can afford of the thicker material.

It must cost quite a bit to get the wood to Texas. I can source Curly Maple at 10/4 for $9.00 a bd/ft. here in CT. ( I thought we always had the highest price on everything.:eek:)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I don't know that it's in demand more. In addition to the longer drying time, I think that the supply of it is less because you require a clearer span of the tree.

Prashun wins another kewpie doll. :p It isn't demand - it's supply.

You can get more high-grade [or, high-figured] shorts, narrows, and "skinnies" out of a tree than you can long, wide, and thick. It's a tree, not an aluminum extrusion plant.

4' x 3-1/2" x 3/4" would be - and should be - a lot cheaper than 16' x 12" x 2" material.

In a similar vein - you can go to certain hardwood mills - Talarico is the one I deal with - that will sell you boards made from logs that normally would otherwise be sent into a veneer slicer. The "best-of-the-best". That fiber in 4/4, 6/4, whatever, thickness cost a lot more, relatively, than in thin slices.

[Mike Heidrick]

Those all sound like good reasons to charge a little more, but not 2 times as much.

To the right person with the right job it may be worth more than that.

[eugene thomas]

well isnt 9\4 twice as much wood as 4/4 mean when ever i buy 2 " thick wood i have to pay for 2 bf instead of 1 bf

[Chip Lindley]

well isnt 9\4 twice as much wood as 4/4 mean when ever i buy 2 " thick wood i have to pay for 2 bf instead of 1 bf

Do the math. Each sq.ft. of surface area of an 9/4 board is actually 2.25bf. $9.00 X 2.25 = $20.25. When you consider price per sq.ft., $20 was at a small discount!

I believe the OP conveyed three words that explain the $20/bf price tag. Dallas and Wood World. Store-front wood businesses encourage impulse buying in the store. Affluent wood butchers do not blink an eye at prices, when they can take home exactly the right piece of wood to fit their weekend project. There are few bargains in big cities unless Cousin Vinnie can get it for ya wholesale! Head for the country to a groundhog sawmill for big chunks of wood on the cheap! After 2.5 years of air-drying you can brag about your bargain.

[Bill Dieckman]

Eugene, that would be the case if they were using linear feet but doesn't work with board feet. Board feet is a measure of volume while linear feet does not account for thickness or width except through pricing (probably arrived at through a bf calculation.).
I've run across a couple retailer that have the same lumber priced both ways and if you do your math and some measuring of the linearly-priced lumber, the board-foot pricing was cheaper.
One was an oversight/mis-labeling that was fixed instantly while another shrugged and said 'Thanks' (same pricing was in place 2 weeks later).

Addendum:

Do the math. Each sq.ft. of surface area of an 9/4 board is actually 2.25bf. $9.00 X 2.25 = $20.25. When you consider price per sq.ft., $20 was at a small discount!
The problem with this math is that you're computing for 2.25 board feet on one hand and 1bf on the other. If you're using $9, that's fine, but the same piece of wood (2.25bf) at $20 is $45, not $20.25.
Board foot is 12" long, 12" wide, and 1" thick. The initial calculation of board feet works, but you have to keep the price per board foot straight.

As far as WoodWorld, they are extremely fond of their woods.

[Paul Johnstone]

Those all sound like good reasons to charge a little more, but not 2 times as much.

It is supply and demand. Most people do not use as much 9/4 as 4/4, so the supplier can get a higher price for it, and people are willing to pay it.

I've bought kiln dried wood from some sawyers and the price per board foot was the same, regardless of thickness.. One guy claimed that it was less work to make 8/4 than 4/4.. Of course, this was all log run grade.

[Kent A Bathurst]

It is supply and demand. One guy claimed that it was less work to make 8/4 than 4/4.. Of course, this was all log run grade.

On log run, it is supply and demand. For log run, It is cheaper per BF to run 8/4 than 4/4 - the saw doesn't care how thick it is.

The OP, however, was asking about curly maple, not log run. Different equation entirely. It is supply [yield], not demand. And, it takes a lot of additional work in the mill to get the high-quality product out of a log.

[Danny Hamsley]

I cut a lot of lumber, and the thicker the board, the more handling issues you have. A 10 foot piece of 2x12 red oak green off the saw takes two people to handle and stack at a minimum. Along with requiring a much larger log to yield thicker and wider lumber, the thick stock takes at least twice as long to dry. More than the time, however, is the degrade. The real problem is controlling the drying rate exactly so that the stock does not split. I air dry my lumber, and 8/4 is twice as prone to splitting from drying stress. The outer core dries faster than the inner core, and the resulting stress causes cracks and splits. This ruins the board unless you can cut around the splits. Really thick stock is almost impossible to dry with out cracking or splitting. If you put 9/4 stock in a kiln, it can take 3 to 4 times longer to dry to avoid the splitting, and this time is what drives the price up.

[Paul Johnstone]

On log run, it is supply and demand. For log run, It is cheaper per BF to run 8/4 than 4/4 - the saw doesn't care how thick it is.

The OP, however, was asking about curly maple, not log run. Different equation entirely. It is supply [yield], not demand. And, it takes a lot of additional work in the mill to get the high-quality product out of a log.

I don't dispute that.

My point is that enough people are willing to pay $20/bf for 9/4 curly maple. That sets the price more than anything. If people were not willing to pay such a premium, either the manufacturer/seller would accept a lower profit margin or stop making it. If people were also willing to pay $20/bf for 4/4 curly maple, that's what it would cost.

[Prashun Patel]

I don't dispute that.

My point is that enough people are willing to pay $20/bf for 9/4 curly maple. That sets the price more than anything. If people were not willing to pay such a premium.

Supply & demand are chicken and egg - but only if yr comparing curly maple to other species at the same thickness. Curly maple is 'desirable' the same way diamonds are desirable. There are probably other woods that are similarly scarce as curly maple, but they lack aesthetic beauty (whatever that is) such that there's no demand for it.

However, if you're comparing 9/4 curly maple to 4/4 curly maple, the aesthetic difference, i.e. the demand difference is eliminated. Then my vote is that it's more a supply issue.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

The outer core dries faster than the inner core, and the resulting stress causes cracks and splits. This ruins the board unless you can cut around the splits. Really thick stock is almost impossible to dry with out cracking or splitting. If you put 9/4 stock in a kiln, it can take 3 to 4 times longer to dry to avoid the splitting, and this time is what drives the price up.

I find it very difficult to find exotics thicker than 8/4 that's not all full of checks. When I do, into the stash it goes.

[David Weaver]

I would guess that most of the people who are buying the 9/4 wood are planning on doing higher dollar work.

if you're commissioned to build a piece, and you're trying to differentiate your work, you'd much rather resaw a 9/4 board and have two similar 4/4 boards when you're done, than just slap together unrelated 4/4 boards.

Above and beyond the facts that have already been stated (it's harder to dry it, and less common to get wider clear boards with good figure all the way around. )

West Penn charges $15 a bd foot for 10/4 curly maple, and $5 for 4/4. In my experience there, you can go through the racks to get boards you like, but if you pull out really highly figured boards, or wide ones, you'll get upcharged for musical grade lumber or wide-board surcharge above and beyond that cost, so if the lumber being discussed is really good quality, then their prices would probably be the same.

There is usually a good reason things cost what they cost when you are buying from a retailer, even if the salesperson isn't tuned in on the right frequency to be able to tell you why.

I'd rather have had all wide board 10/4 for the last project I bought wood from west penn, but a buddy and I were already up to $900 on lumber for two blanket chests (learned that all of the boards in the bin didn't go at the $5 price real fast!) and figured we didn't need to double it. Were it a commission with a high-paying customer, I'd have assumed they wanted the wide panels on the blanket chest to be bookmatched, or single wide boards, which would probably also be $20 a bd foot with good figure, anyway. That type of customer pays $20 a board foot without question. Those of us building hobby projects probably don't.

I figure west penn usually has decent prices given what they have and the fact that you can dig through literally tons and tons of wood to get what you want. The only thing better would be getting flitches, and that's more expensive yet unless you provide the tree.

[Nathan Allen]

I'd disagree that they're overcharging, 9/4 curly is very rare, that said it can be had for a better price. Remember that when you go to a retail lumber store it is for the convienence of getting the exact board you want/need. Mostly these stores exist for professionals who are able to pass the cost on to the buyer.

Still, I'm glad that our main stores (Owl) here in Chicago have a straight forward pricing; mark it on the board when you stack it on the rack. Combine that with Badger and other providers just north or west, keeping an eye for blowout deals on Woodweb/Woodplanet and the occassional Craigslist Air Dried firewood sale you can keep your costs lower.

The biggest problem though is having the space to absorb a few hundred BF in a hobby shop.

[John Coloccia]

Would you be willing to buy 1/16" maple boards at the same price per board foot as 5/4" boards, and then laminate everything to get the thickness you want? What about at 1/20 the price? Using the logic that all board feet should be equal, that's a bargain.

:D

[David Weaver]

The biggest problem though is having the space to absorb a few hundred BF in a hobby shop.

Yeah, the space and the bugs if your shop is a garage or separate building that isn't bug proof. Sucks to get really old wood (which is what some becomes if you have lots of it, anyway) and pull it out and find bunches of bug damage.

[Chip Lindley]

The problem with this math is that you're computing for 2.25 board feet on one hand and 1bf on the other. If you're using $9, that's fine, but the same piece of wood (2.25bf) at $20 is $45, not $20.25.
Board foot is 12" long, 12" wide, and 1" thick. The initial calculation of board feet works, but you have to keep the price per board foot straight.

As far as WoodWorld, they are extremely fond of their woods.

Bill, you are exactly right. My brain will not compute anywhere in the neighborhood of $45 per board foot. Not unless a wealthy patron is footing the bill and my muse is there to guide me through every cut.

Hmm...I have two 80-year-old black walnut planks in the attic 2-1/8" thick by 16" wide by 14' long. I wonder what that's worth, per board foot??? Hmm...