Sheet Breakdown

[Doug Donnell]

I am on my first cabinet project for the LOML. It is going incredibly slowly as I built the first two upper cabinets start to finish without doing much batch cutting of parts. Wanted to make certain I wasn't going to create a bunch of useless plywood boxes...
Now that I am confident enough to cut the rest of the parts for the upper cabinets in batches, I think the project pace will pick up. I did basic breakdown of the sheet goods in order to make manageable pieces for the table saw. I used a home made edge guide (1/4 hardboard base with a lumber straight edge, or fence, on top, offset so the blade on the circ saw rides down the edge of the hardboard while the base of the saw is kept against the fence).
My question is, surely there is a better way? I am fairly satisfied with the three sawhorses I use for the breakdown, as I can control offcuts without them falling. I don't really have the room for a sheet of foam to do the cuts on the floor, and that really isn't my problem either. Its mostly guiding my old Craftsman 8" circ saw accurately against my fence. I am so prone to wander that I make certain I cut generously oversize and keep a factory edge for the table saw fence to clean up on. Dust control, is, of course, nonexistant...
I know one of the plunge saws would be a good choice, but that is out of the budget. So to is a panel saw, even one of the home made ones, as space is also at a premium (humm, space and money at a premium, how unusual is that?). I have often wondered if the small PC circ saw that Norm used on NYW was a better choice due to handiness, or a similar small saw. I also have noticed some straight edge clamps that have tracks for saw bases, that might allow me some better accuracy in my breakdown cuts. I don't know of anything I can do about dust collection with anything other than a plunge saw...
Any suggestions on technique, tools, or strategy would be appreciated. I think the breakdown process is my least favorite part of this project, my bet is someone out there has solved my problem for themselves long ago.
Thanks in advance.
Doug

[Neil Brooks]

I do it very similarly to the way that you do it.

And I hate it in much the same way you hate it ;)

I bought a clamp-on straight edge -- about 8' long, in two pieces that assemble with a screw-in "brace" to stabilize.

I over-cut everything, and then clean it up on the table saw.

Last night, I was manhandling 5' x 5' x 3/4" sheets of baltic birch ply, onto my two sawhorses, .... cursing aloud ... and doing the cuts.

Short of a huge infeed and outfeed table setup, or infeed/outfeed rollers .... or a panel saw ... or a Festool (mighty $$$$) track saw ... I haven't found anything that simplifies this odious task.

[doug faist]

Hey, Doug - Long ago I decided that breaking down sheet goods was just beyond my energy level (bad back doesn't help either), so I found a good hardwood/plywood supplier. They have an excellent panel saw with a very good plywood blade. I do a preliminary drawing, usually using Cutlist or some such software that leaves 1/4" to 1/2" extra on the panels, then I let them cut it up and I do the final cuts at home.

The supplier charges me $1 for each cut after the first, but when I'm paying $50 - $100 for a sheet of hardwood plywood, it doesn't really matter. I save on the time and machinery to do the breakdown myself and I can get on with the woodworking part of the project.

That's my solution; I'm sure you're going to get more.

Have fun with your project.

Doug

[Matt Armstrong]

At home depot or any of the "big box" stores you can get a 4'x8' sheet of styrofoam that makes an excellent sheet goods support while you cut the plywood. You just set the ply on the styrofoam and cut right into it. Allows you to crawl all over the plywood while cutting and so on.

[Doug Donnell]

Doug, your solution is excellent, except it demands careful preplanning and confidence you know what you are doing!
Right now I spend about half my shop time sketching, drawing, measuring (I have worn a path from my shop to my wife's pantry going back to make certain I had the measurements correct) before I make the first cut. I know there will be mistakes, I just want to keep them as cheap as possible, and preferably amusing within 24 hours....

[Joe Chritz]

Cutlist is well worth the $20.

I have a festool track saw but before that rough cut by hand lengthwise and then cut from there. A half sheet isn't to hard to handle and as long as you have one factory edge to start with no problem to square up.

If you use a cut program like cut list you can usually set it up to favor rip cuts.

The sheet of styrofoam to lay the panel on is a great idea and lots of people use it.

Joe

[Paul Wunder]

Doug,

You didn't state what type of blade you are using. A high quality carbide blade for trim cuts will do wonders for wandering if you are currently using an older inexpensive blade. I recently put a Diablo 40 tooth carbide blade (Home Depot, $20, I think) on my new mid range Milwaukee circular saw and was amazed at the improvement over the new manufacturer supplied carbide blade that I was using. Smooth cuts.

Paul

[Leo Graywacz]

You never said what you were using for a tablesaw. I have a unisaw with outfeed fences and I just manhandle the sheetgoods. Only time I use circular saws is when I need pcs in the 90"+ range. Even then, depending on their widths I sometimes use my sled on the saw to do the cuts.

[Doug Donnell]

I am using a Diablo plywood blade in the old circ saw, while I don't know if that is a particularly great blade, I am confident the wandering is my fault, not the equipment. I do sometimes wonder if a handier or lighter saw might help my technique. I have always thought the handle of my circ saw to un-naturally off center to the left...

My table saw is a PM 64 contractors saw. Its a pretty good contractor saw and its handled anything I have thrown at it, but it has the 30 +/- inch fence rails so capacity is limited. However, most of my breakdown cuts are "crosscuts" on the 4'x8' sheets, I have a 3 foot outfeed table on the saw and outfeed roller stands so I can generally handle pretty long rip cuts. A full 8' sheet is pretty difficult to rip though, and shorter lengths improve the quality of the cut.

Main thing I am looking for is a breakdown method that is easy and quick to set up, and sufficiently accurate to allow me to leave less generous margins around the final dimensions. If anyone has experience with a smaller saw they like, or a straight edge/saw guide they like, I would definitely be interested.

Otherwise I am probably just going to have to suck it up and deal with it. This afternoon I had to scab on a straight edge to a panel that I butchered both edges on (needed the factory edges on both end pieces)just so I could get a straight rip on one edge.

Oh well...

Thanks all!

Doug

[Darl Bundren]

Maybe make the rough cut and then use a straight edge and a router to square it up?

I have the EZ Smart guide system, and I like it a ton, especially the Smart table for support. However, since I bought mine some years ago, the prices have gone up quite a bit. You might look at the Smart Table top kit that goes for around $70--It gives great support on top of two sawhorses and has a fairly small footprint when you fold it all up. Sometimes the support arms start to slide out when I move mine, but I don't move it that much.

[larry cronkite]

Used the foam for some time but it was very unwieldy and a pain to find a place to store it.
A tip that I have used with good results.
Instead of saw horses use 2 or 3 large Rubbermaid (or any other brand) tubs turned upside down. They provide a larger surface for better stability and if you accidentally cut them - no big deal.

[Jason White]

Buy a Festool TS55 saw.

Jason


I am on my first cabinet project for the LOML. It is going incredibly slowly as I built the first two upper cabinets start to finish without doing much batch cutting of parts. Wanted to make certain I wasn't going to create a bunch of useless plywood boxes... Now that I am confident enough to cut the rest of the parts for the upper cabinets in batches, I think the project pace will pick up. I did basic breakdown of the sheet goods in order to make manageable pieces for the table saw. I used a home made edge guide (1/4 hardboard base with a lumber straight edge, or fence, on top, offset so the blade on the circ saw rides down the edge of the hardboard while the base of the saw is kept against the fence). My question is, surely there is a better way? I am fairly satisfied with the three sawhorses I use for the breakdown, as I can control offcuts without them falling. I don't really have the room for a sheet of foam to do the cuts on the floor, and that really isn't my problem either. Its mostly guiding my old Craftsman 8" circ saw accurately against my fence. I am so prone to wander that I make certain I cut generously oversize and keep a factory edge for the table saw fence to clean up on. Dust control, is, of course, nonexistant... I know one of the plunge saws would be a good choice, but that is out of the budget. So to is a panel saw, even one of the home made ones, as space is also at a premium (humm, space and money at a premium, how unusual is that?). I have often wondered if the small PC circ saw that Norm used on NYW was a better choice due to handiness, or a similar small saw. I also have noticed some straight edge clamps that have tracks for saw bases, that might allow me some better accuracy in my breakdown cuts. I don't know of anything I can do about dust collection with anything other than a plunge saw... Any suggestions on technique, tools, or strategy would be appreciated. I think the breakdown process is my least favorite part of this project, my bet is someone out there has solved my problem for themselves long ago. Thanks in advance. Doug

[Don Alexander]

you would help your wandering problem i'm sure if you went with a Freud 60tooth blade on your CS plywood blades dull quickly and then wandering through a cut is hard to avoid the 60tooth carbide tipped CS blade i mentioned will amze you with the cut quality also you didn't mention what CS you were using,
but a good CS i.e. Milwaukee , or similar contractor grade saw would also make the process better

wandering is caused by any of several things or a combination of them one of the worst offenders is a dull blade ; another is short CS cords that get hung up mid cut ; also cheap CS's tend to have small narrow shoe plates and are much more likely to tip a bit while cutting ; and the other big thing is proper positioning of the CS operator during the cut

about the only thing that i have found a "plywood" blade does well is cut vinyl siding and then you need it installed in the saw backwards :D

[fRED mCnEILL]

I have used a clamp on straightedge and circular saw to break down panels of ply. What I don't particularily like is the finished cut or the TIME to set it up. But I have never had a problem getting the saw to follow the straightedge. I suspect it might be your technique. Or perhaps your saws plate is not parallel to the blade.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I use a generic BORG 2 piece straight edge and a CS.

I had problems with "wandering" while using my old saw as the bearings were 20+ years old. I bought myself a new saw and the problem was resolved.

A blade that has damage to one side so that it's dull will wander.......

If you are having problem following a straight edge, IMHO it's one of three possibilities....1) technique.....2)blade.....3) saw....

[Bill McDermott]

In a successful attempt to minimize shaggy "cross cuts" in plywood (you know what I mean), I made a zero clearance base plate for my CS. It's just hardboard with a frame of 1/2" x 1/2" pieces that fit around the stock base plate. I put a fixed cleat in front and a loose one in back that thumb screws down. I waxed the bottom and it scoots right along. Much, much smoother and accurate to to glide across plywood.

The unintended bonus payoff, was that it's far easier to keep that smooth sliding wooden tray butted to the straight edge than the unadorned saw.

Killed two birds with one zero-clearance base plate.

** Warning -- the safety guard will not work with a zero clearance baseplate. So beware of the perpetually exposed blade. Habit will tempt you to put the saw down before the blade stops spinning.**

[Norman Pyles]

I am using a home made guide too, and try to cut plywood sheets on the back of my truck tailgate. I just slide them out, and put a workmate under the off cut. I have a bad back, and unloading a full sheet of 3/4 ply is almost impossible for me. I am keeping my eye out for a track saw too.

[Philip Johnson]

I laughed at the idea of a festool track saw after all if I could get a sheet home I could cut it up.

I had about 10 sheets of mdf to break down and didn't want to want to kill myself dragging em to the saw. So I broke down and bought a festool track saw. It makes breaking down sheets a joy. The cut is accurate enough and clean enough you can make your finally cuts with it. Its hard to tell the difference between a cut with the track saw and a cut with a forrest saw blade on a table saw. I have found more uses for it and it goes everywhere with me. The price is a bit steep but you soon get over it, if a tool works and works good its worth the price.

Phil

[scott vroom]

The Festool tracksaw setup looks slick, but don't you still have the problem of setting up sawhorses or making the cut on the floor over a piece of foam (on your hands and knees)?

[Kevin Womer]

At home depot or any of the "big box" stores you can get a 4'x8' sheet of styrofoam that makes an excellent sheet goods support while you cut the plywood. You just set the ply on the styrofoam and cut right into it. Allows you to crawl all over the plywood while cutting and so on.

Great idea and I have often thought of trying this-the only problem is where to store it when I'm done cutting up the plywood. Anyone have any creative ideas?
Thanks,
Kevin

[Jim McFarland]

Great idea and I have often thought of trying this-the only problem is where to store it when I'm done cutting up the plywood. Anyone have any creative ideas?
Thanks,
Kevin

Knock-down support inspired by one shown on Festool Owner's Group...

[Dave Schreib]

Great idea and I have often thought of trying this-the only problem is where to store it when I'm done cutting up the plywood. Anyone have any creative ideas?
Thanks,
Kevin

I glued 2 layers of foam insulation to a 4 by 8 sheet of hardboard. Then strengthened the hardboard with a 2x2 frame because it was a little floppy. The whole set up rests behind my rough 3x8 work bench (basically in the middle of the room). When I want to use it I scoot it up onto the work bench. If you just use foam without the hardboard you end up with small pieces of foam.

I use a homemade hardboard straightedge to guide the cuts and plug my shopvac into the "dust port" on my PC circ saw.

Works ok.

In terms of storing the thing, maybe store it where you stack your 4x8 sheet goods? It's the same size.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Frank Pellow started a thread many years ago on his sawhorse build. The link to the plans on Popular Woodworking is dead, Frank emailed me a copy and I think I still have it somewhere. I built a set and documented over on FOG. They work very nicely. I have a 4 x 8' sheet of plywood with some pink rigid insulation glued to it. PM me if you are interested in plans.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8083&highlight=sawhorse+plans

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/homemade-plywood-cutting-table-sawhorses/?action=dlattach;attach=4828;image

[Jerome Hanby]

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/homemade-plywood-cutting-table-sawhorses/?action=dlattach;attach=4828;image
I built something like this except I put it together with all the 2x4s flat, half laps hooking them together, and a pair of banquet table legs so I could fold the whole deal flat when I was done. Think the basic rig is someplace on the FWW site. The PSI Portable Panel Saw is a pretty good solution for about $100. Mine doesn't see much use since I got my Festool, but it's a good solution for breaking down sheet goods (especially after you attach some hardboard to the rails and cut it down so you always know where the saw line is).

[Kent A Bathurst]

I am using a Diablo plywood blade in the old circ saw, while I don't know if that is a particularly great blade, I am confident the wandering is my fault, not the equipment. I do sometimes wonder if a handier or lighter saw might help my technique. I have always thought the handle of my circ saw to un-naturally off center to the left...

My table saw is a PM 64 contractors saw. Its a pretty good contractor saw and its handled anything I have thrown at it, but it has the 30 +/- inch fence rails so capacity is limited. However, most of my breakdown cuts are "crosscuts" on the 4'x8' sheets, I have a 3 foot outfeed table on the saw and outfeed roller stands so I can generally handle pretty long rip cuts. A full 8' sheet is pretty difficult to rip though, and shorter lengths improve the quality of the cut.

I have never been able to figure out why the circ saw labelled "left hand" is a left-hand saw - as a righty, the left-hand saw is MUCH easier to use - you are looking right down on the cut path.

I have been helping a friend set up a modest WW shop - no TS. I helped him build a guide like yours [except I got him some alum bar stock for the guide rail, with 6" overhang each end]. He was still wandering a bit - all pilot error - he'd look up, he'd look back, worst - he'd move his feet while the saw was in motion. I got him trianed to not look around, and stop the saw motion when he moved his feet, and get the power cord in the proper place before he started. Got better. THEN I had him get a PC Saw Boss - smaller frame, left-hand, lighter weight. Now he's doing just fine.

That's "do as I say, not as I do". I don't have much need for a circ saw, so I still have my 20-yr-old right-hand bulky Crapsman. I'd love to get a Saw Boss [or even better yet - a PC 314], but I can't come up with a plausible excuse to spend the $$. When I need to break down panels, I use it or a jig saw to rough cut - don't care about square or straight - to get it down to a size I can handle on the TS. The side panels, top, bottom, and shelves in a cabinet are what - 16" deep at most? Even at 8' long, rough cut at 17", you can run this through your TS pretty easily. For cut-to-length - a low-tech sled will do it - even end-trimming the long sides [as long as you support any "wild" end off the TS, and clamp that sucker in place on the sled]. The only biggie is the back - but the edges of that will be concealed, so you want it square, but you don't care about wandering circ saw blade cuts.

[Greg Portland]

A tracksaw will make your life easier but it is by no means required. I would do the following:

1) Check blade quality. Replace with upper end Freud (or similar) if it's junk.
2) Check that the blade is parallel with the base plate edge. Adjust the saw if required. It would not surprise me if the Craftsman saw was mis-adjusted. If the saw can't be aligned properly then get a decent mid-tier saw.
3) Buy a 3/4" or 1" thick piece of rigid styrofoam insulation. Put that on your saw horses, then the sheet good on top. The foam will greatly reduce tear-out on the backside of the cut.
3b) If you are comfortable with the exposed blade then build a zero clearance insert for your saw; it will greatly reduce tear out on the top side of the boards. A "saw caddy" can be used to store the saw when it's off (blade not resting on concrete).
4) Use a clean factory edge on a sheet of MDF or plywood as your straightedge. A 8"+ x 8' wide piece would work well.
5) Clamp the straightedge to your workpiece once you've aligned the cut.
6) Set the blade cutting depth so the teeth just clear the surface of the wood. You don't want to cut through your foam into the saw horses!
7) When cutting, feed the saw slowly and smoothly through the wood. Push slightly toward the fence as you cut.

The benefit of a track saw (Festool, etc.) over the above system is that the guide track gets placed right on the cut line (very fast to setup a cut). Additionally, clamping is rarely required because the backing is rubberized / grippy. With a decent blade & some modifications (Zero clearance inserts, etc.) a 'normal' saw will product cuts just as accurate as a tracksaw in traditional materials.

[David Prince]

(4) 2 x 2 x 8 foot running sawhorse to saw horse, then you can rip end to end. Add (4) 2 x 2 x 4 foot perpendicular to the 8 footers to form a grid and do your cross cuts. Keep your sawblade within that grid during your cuts. All of the pieces store easily and last forever. Use a clamp-on straight edge. The Milwaukee tilt-lok saw has an adjustable handle that helps give you a comfortable position and has enough power to drive a blade. Use a sharp blade. piece of cake!:cool:

[Roger Jensen]

I also bought the EZ smart kit for $70. It works well and doesn't take up a lot of space. I tried the foam insulation technique but didn't like working on the floor on my knees. I have Festool guides with a Hilti 267e circular saw that fits the guides.

[glenn bradley]

White foam insulation on the floor with a shop made straight edge. I gotta keep these old bones moving so getting down on the ground once in a blue moon is OK with me ;-)

[Kevin Womer]

[QUOTE=Dave Schreib;1517286]I glued 2 layers of foam insulation to a 4 by 8 sheet of hardboard. Then strengthened the hardboard with a 2x2 frame because it was a little floppy. The whole set up rests behind my rough 3x8 work bench (basically in the middle of the room). When I want to use it I scoot it up onto the work bench. If you just use foam without the hardboard you end up with small pieces of foam.

This is what I was thinking of, I will give it a try.
Thank you,
Kevin

[Randy Smith]

Like everyone else, I seem to struggle with handling sheetgoods. Mostly because my 500 sq. ft. shop just doesn't have the room. I have a folding banquet table that I set up. A 2" thick piece rigid insulation goes on top, then the plywood on top of that. Shop-made edge guides clamp to the plywood and foam and then I use my trusty PC-314 trim saw. I have a Tenryu 4 1/2", 42 tooth blade on it and the cuts are flawless. I can make this system work (despite the 16" clearance I have to walk around the plywood and foam), but I sure would like an easier way to deal with plywood in my small shop.

A vertical panel saw would be great, but I definitely don't have that sort of free wall space. This seems like a problem begging for a creative solution.

Kent, on the left vs right hand saw nomenclature: A right handed circular saw does make it a bit more difficult to see the cut line since the blade is on the right of the motor, but the reason for this is straightforward. If you place a board on some sawhorses, you use your left hand to hold it down, your right hand to run the saw with the majority of the saw's base (and weight) to the "keep" side of your cut line. This lets your drop (or offcut) fall while the keep portion of the board supports the saw. If you use your right hand to make a cut with a left handed saw you'll see the cut line better, but the majority of the saw will be supported by the portion of board that you plan to let drop - not ideal or safe.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Otherwise I am probably just going to have to suck it up and deal with it.
Or - do what I did and a lot of others have done....

Suck it up and buy a track saw.

Put the pleasure back into things.

[Mike Harrison]

This is the saw I use to break down sheet goods, along with the 2" wide, 3' long pieces of ply shown in the second pic.

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv62/mikeinkcmo/WW%20tools/Shop%20tools%20and%20Jigs/Sheet%20Goods%20Spacers/SawBoss1.jpg

As you can see, these guys need almost no storage space, and can be used on any flat surface.
http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv62/mikeinkcmo/WW%20tools/Shop%20tools%20and%20Jigs/Sheet%20Goods%20Spacers/Sheetgoodspacers3.jpg

I bought a set of these straight edge clamps several years ago. I don't think these guys are in business any more, but there are others offering similar clamps today. This style of straight edge is great.

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv62/mikeinkcmo/WW%20tools/Shop%20tools%20and%20Jigs/Sheet%20Goods%20Spacers/SawBoss2.jpg

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv62/mikeinkcmo/WW%20tools/Shop%20tools%20and%20Jigs/Sheet%20Goods%20Spacers/SawBoss3.jpg

[Paul Johnstone]

I I used a home made edge guide (1/4 hardboard base with a lumber straight edge, or fence, on top, offset so the blade on the circ saw rides down the edge of the hardboard while the base of the saw is kept against the fence).

. Its mostly guiding my old Craftsman 8" circ saw accurately against my fence. I am so prone to wander that I make certain I cut generously oversize and keep a factory edge for the table saw fence to clean up on. Dust control, is, of course, nonexistant...



EZ smart makes a Dust collection add on for most circular saws. I have never tried it, but maybe that will help.

Use clamps to hold your straight edge jig to the plywood. Cut slow..focus on keeping the edge of the saw against the straight edge. I use a piece of alumimum for my straight edge .. it was in expensive and I know it is straight.. This is just something that takes practice. I use a homemade saw guide just like you. I don't cut oversize at all, and get good results.
I have a porter cable circular saw and a Freud plywood blade

[Doug Donnell]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. Based on your suggestions, I checked my saw and discovered that the base is slightly mis-aligned with the blade (blade kicked "out"). It isn't much, but any effect it might have would be to draw the saw away from the fence.

I also think the "new" blade I had in the saw isn't as "new" as I thought.

I may try to adjust the base but not certain this 25 year old Craftsman is going to cooperate. I may build a zero clearance insert and square that up, but I am also thinking about the All in One Straight Edge Clamp that Highland Woodworking sells, along with the Wide Jaw and the Saw Plate.

Of course, by the time I buy all that and spend the time tweaking and installing, I get pretty close to the Festool Track saw that I "can't afford."

Thanks all...

Doug

[Matt Meiser]

And you still won't have decent dust collection.

[Neil Brooks]

And you still won't have decent dust collection.

I do.

It's time-honored and well tested, too.

I use the circ saw, straight edge, and saw horses, and THEN .... some quality time with the Shop Vac, afterward :p

[Rich Engelhardt]

Of course, by the time I buy all that and spend the time tweaking and installing, I get pretty close to the Festool Track saw that I "can't afford."


Yep - +1 to that!

Espcially if your saw is 25+ years old and in question.

A "good" new circ saw is going to run between $150 and $300.

By the time you figure in all of that, you're so close to the Festool.....

That's the same situation I faced & I just bit the bullet and sprung for the Festool.

Now I can just sit back and chuckle at the people that find working with sheet goods to be such a huge chore.
I find it quite the enjoyable experience.......