First saw tote, first western saw kit completed actually

[David Weaver]

This is the tote on a wenzloff kit, it's apple that I got from someone on woodnet.

I made my share of mistakes on it, but it turned out usable, and on the first one, I guess that's the most important thing.

Looking at the picture for some reason helps a lot more than looking at it in person, maybe it's the light or shadow, but I can see more problems in the pictures.

Big mistake #1 is that I way overcut the slot for the saw. I just wasn't paying attention. This particular batch of apple is from an old tree, and it's really really hard. I cut the slot with an apple, because I just couldn't get the system of putting the saw plate on a board to work.

Mistake #2 is overcutting the mortise for the spine of the saw

and mistake #3 is not being careful enough about the crispness of the lines. Given that this stuff doesn't occur on a plane tote, I guess it's a learning experience and hopefully eye training.

You guys who make a lot of saws, how do you keep the lines on the chamfer on the front of the tote clean? Shave? That's objective #1 on the next one. I didn't like the way it looked when I was done this time (with floats and rasps) so I had to soften it a little.

The saw itself is a 16 inch rip saw filed 10 ppi with 5 degrees of rake. it's heavy, it's turned out dead straight (fortunately) and it cuts like a banshee.

Any critique and advice is appreciated.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

David,

if that is your first saw handle I take my hat off to you for sure!!

Those little issues don´t count. The handle is very very beautiful. And the basics are perfect, that counts!

Klaus

[george wilson]

If your cutting edge ever ISN'T straight,the best way to fix it is to clamp the saw upside down in a vise that doesn't hurt the handle. Make a wooden wrench that fits the thickness of the back. Looking down the teeth,twist the back sideways to straighten the cutting edge. It is not a good idea to bend the back into a curve till the teeth line up straight. Then you will end up with a curve in the back. Doing it like I said doesn't make the back curved,or deformed looking.

I also suggest making the slots in the saw screw all line up in the same direction. this is(was) standard on fine flint lock gun locks,or later on shotgun locks.

The handle doesn't by any means look bad,but I would put more bevel on the top of the cheeks(twice the bevel you have) where it meets the back. A little "step" in the rounded termination of the bevel there is a nice touch.

I also leave a definite sharp line where the rounding of the handle meets the flat sides. That is done by belt sanding,or hand sanding with a sanding block after the sculpture is done. Also,a crisper,sharp bottomed "V" in the tail of the handle where it blends up against the cheek is good sculpture.

Take a look at my closed handle back saw in FAQ. Look at the closed Groves saw handle shown with the original.

[David Christopher]

David, I think your saw handle looks great

[Marv Werner]

David,

Your first handle looks just great. The pictures really don't show the mistakes you mention. The purpose for a first handle is mainly for practice. You'll do much better on the next one. Strive for excellence, not perfection. Perfection is a myth. Make your handles to suit yourself.

When cutting in the slot for the blade, I pencil in two lines around where I will be sawing. Make the distance between the lines about the thickness of the blade. When possible I use a backsaw filed rip. Most of the sawing is end grain. Make sure the teeth are sharp with minimum set. Saw a little on one side, then rotate the handle and saw some more. Keep rotating and sawing, making sure you saw inside the two lines. When you have sawn all around where the cut needs to be, then you can focus on the straight cut to match up with the back end of the blade.

As for the radiusing of the hand grip, some saws have full blended radiuses and some don't. It's mainly a matter of eye appeal and comfort. I prefer the feel of blended radiuses. When the handle is finished, I like it to feel smooth as glass.

When you know better, you will do better. I can easily say, your first attempt is one of the best first attempts I've seen. :)

Marv

[David Weaver]

Klaus, et al - thanks for the compliments. It is a little misleading that this is my first saw tote - that itself is true, but I have made totes for planes - a lot, and several infill plane closed totes. They are all curves, though, no bevels or straight lines.

I haven't worked with anything this soft, but this particular piece of apple is much harder than I expected - it's like hard maple. I expected it to be softer. It was a bear to mortise for the back after cutting the slot, because I only had enough clearance to saw the front so far, or the saw would be cutting into the top of the tote.

I'm also a tool pig, so OK first results are a big function of having the tools at hand. I like having the right tools and not wondering if it's the tools or me causing poor execution.

George - thanks for the tips. I wasn't happy with how the V turned out at first, which is one of the reasons it was softened some. It just wasn't quite how I wanted. My eyes are hoping to see sharp lines when I look at the saw, the same way your ears want to hear the right pitch during a dissonant note, but in this case, looking at the tote is like nothing follows the dissonant note :rolleyes:

The issue of leaving a notch of flat at the end of the bevel seems like common sense now that you mention it - it would've looked a lot better.

I have trouble finding your stuff in the FAQ - is does someone have a link to the listing?

Hopefully, the next one I post will show some improvement, but it may be a while due to work and due to the fact that my wife thinks her list of things to have made should take precedence for a while :confused:

[george wilson]

It's under the tools section. There is about a 3" high column of tools listed. Mine are in there on page 1,under the "Making Your Own Tools" section. My saws there are copies of a few of the old designs that I have mentioned are just so nice I had to have them. My brass shoulder plane is not a copy,nor is my brass drill. As a rule,I like to make original designs. I was PAID to copy things in the museum for many years. At least,I got a lot of exposure to some objects with superb design.

A sculptural advantage of a sharp line between the curved and flat areas is that you have the opportunity to make the curved areas look calligraphic,by having thicks and thins like in fine 18th. or 19th.C. penmanship. It gives a beautiful effect and is better art.

I like the effect a lot better than sluffing everything off into a less interesting surface. You have only the basic outline of the handle to enjoy when everything else is blended.

Look at automobile design: there are curves,and often a sharp,curved edge here and there that gives life and definition to the surfaces.

While I don't like all the cars,I think that some of the best design work is currently being offered. That is nice,because in the machine tool world,it's mostly boxes set upon boxes. No imagination,except in a relatively rare number of examples of machinery.

You should not miss out on making that calligraphic effect. It adds so much more interest.

[Rick Markham]

David that's a good looking saw handle, I went back and looked at my first attempt, Mine has it's own flaws as well. (Mine are slightly different flaws than yours) Somewhere around here there is a thread that I made, I kinda flew by the seat of my pants on a whim to see if I could make the shape. Mine isn't finished and I still need to order a plate for it so I can finish it.

The crispness of the chamfers that you are looking for, and that George is speaking of came out pretty crisp on mine. I maintained mine the whole time when using the rasp (Gramercy saw handle maker's rasp) Maybe I can offer some "amateur advice" based on my experience. I didn't need to use a belt sander at the end (not my favorite of tools).

Please excuse the cooking reference (its the philosophy I follow when sculpting something by hand.) When I was in chef school and doing vegetable carving/ melon peeling/ pineapple peeling there is a "trick" to doing it right. It actually applies to pretty much anything that you are removing material to make a finished shape by hand.

Here it is: Instead of looking at what you are removing, look at what you are leaving behind. Sounds simple right? It takes a few attempts to fully understand. I'm wondering if George does this (knowingly or unknowingly) when he shapes things.

For me it boils down to where I watch the tool doing the work, I am not watching the area where the "stock" is being hogged off when working, I am watching the inside "leading edge" of the tool that is gradually approaching the flat plane of the handle.

To me it was a revolutionary idea and fixed the majority of my problems in carving/shaping. I think the tendency for most people is to watch what your removing (side of the tool doing the work) as opposed to watching the leading edge (the exact location where the tool is beginning the work) i.e. where the flat plane meet the chamfer.

Am I making any sense? or am I just rambling? George, put me in check please!

edited to add: here's the link to my unfinished handle: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=140448&highlight=Disston+handle+build
The final shaping still isn't finished as I want to drill the holes for the "non-existant" saw plate before finishing the final chamfering... I need to "get off my butt" and order a Wenzloff saw plate for it

[David Weaver]

Rick, makes sense. I'll give it a shot next time, though I think I may do a version of that already, I usually stare at the cut line when I'm working (else you'll cut past the line). I had run up the chamfer on this thing with a drum sander to clean it up on the lathe, and it was pretty sharp in terms of the crispness with the flats, but the area by the V wasn't accurate, so I sort of muzzled all of it by taking some of the sharpness away. I couldn't tolerate the way the V turned out.

I wish I would've had george's tote to look at first! It wasn't until this week that I was actually able to figure out where the stuff of his was listed here - I kept going to the menus at the top of the screen and looking under the FAQ section next to the user CP.

I'm kind of anxious to start on the next tote, even though my better half has other wishes for my shop time.

I used the same rasp for the inside of the tote (but also relieved that some, too, in order to not have sharpness there and not by the strap and chamfer). I have a whole blob of other rasps, files and floats (mostly planemaking tools, though) which come in handy for the rest, especially for fitting the mortise.

What's uncanny is that the chamfer around the front looked fairly large to me in person, but in the picture, it looks tiny. Funny how perspective changes between when you're looking at things after the fact vs what they look like when you're working on them.

Order that saw kit! They're so inexpensive and such good quality that it's almost evil.

(btw., i'll bet your design and knife skills carry over well into woodworking - wish I had either of those skills!)

[George Beck]

I think that is a fine saw tote. Very well done!

George

[Rick Markham]

David, yes revisiting things and looking at them in a different perspective changes the things I see as well. Sometimes I think it is a blessing to be able to set something down and walk away from it for a period of time.

The knife skills thing has definitely paid off, cutting straight accurate lines with a hand saw is no problem for me (as long as the saw is doing it's job) and it really put me leaps and bounds ahead of most woodworkers as far as sharpening, and understanding how the physics of honing edges works. I think as far as a design aspect that is something I have always been blessed with, I guess it's just how my brain works.

Oh I definitely need to get off my butt and order a saw plate from him, In spite of the fact that I get little satisfaction out of using a panel saw (shhhhh.... don't tell the other neanders) It would be a sense of pleasure having a nice one that I helped make... I too am a tool hog, I am as fascinated by the tools as I am by what I get to make with them. Speaking of which my new Lee Valley catalog came yesterday... ugh... MUST RESIST :D

[David Kuzdrall]

It's under the tools section. There is about a 3" high column of tools listed. Mine are in there on page 1,under the "Making Your Own Tools" section. My saws there are copies of a few of the old designs that I have mentioned are just so nice I had to have them. My brass shoulder plane is not a copy,nor is my brass drill. As a rule,I like to make original designs. I was PAID to copy things in the museum for many years. At least,I got a lot of exposure to some objects with superb design.



does this article still exist on the site;I am having trouble finding it?

[David Weaver]

Gad...this was a somewhat gross looking tote that I sanded all of the lines off of before I knew george and before he straightened me out about it.

The one good thing about it, though, is the wood. I haven't found any as good since. I wish I had a basement full of it, it was the finest wood I have ever worked of any type. It works like there's wax in it, you can do no wrong.

This one was better, but never did master the lamb's tongue. Maybe later in life.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?156803-Finally-finished-another-saw-kit

Well, the other good thing about it was that wenzloff was sending stamped, finished, prebeveled backs as kit parts in those days. No cracking in the spine and no slotted nastiness (well, you could get slotted if you wanted them). It's a shame those parts aren't still available, these two saws will last just south of forever and be adjustable to any user with minimal skill if the back gets out of whack. Each of these saws with their nuts and backs and pre-cut teeth were only about 50 or 60 bucks.

Just the difference between these two handles is proof how lucky we are to have george here. I hope none of us forget it.

[Lowell Smith]

[QUOTE
I have trouble finding your stuff in the FAQ - is does someone have a link to the listing?
:confused:[/QUOTE]

The FAQ's appears to now reside in the first link "Neanderthal Announcements..."

The direct link is

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

[Chris Griggs]

That second one really is much much nicer. That reminds me I've been wanting to re make my first saw. I don't care for the wood I used on my first one, The split nuts are all mangled and the mortise for the back is kinda a mess. I was suprised by how tough the first saw build was...lots of weird little things to get right that you don't encounter in furniture making.

Sighhh...I do hope we can get folded backs a gain someday. Even the unfinished ones would be just fine with me.

We are indeed lucky to have George around here. Everything I know about the aesthetics of saw handles I learned either directly or indirectly (i.e. seeing his influence on you and others) from George. And that's just saw handles...garnered some great finishing info from him as well among many other things.

[David Kuzdrall]

[QUOTE
I have trouble finding your stuff in the FAQ - is does someone have a link to the listing?
:confused:

The FAQ's appears to now reside in the first link "Neanderthal Announcements..."

The direct link is

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs[/QUOTE]

thx.

[Steve Voigt]

All the saws look really nice, including the first.
16" vintage backsaws are getting very hard to find, at a reasonable price anyway. I might have to try making one this size. Your example is definitely inspiring.