Which mahogany species?

[Dan Mitchell]

I'm considering making a small table like the one in the picture, using mahogany. A local supplier carries African, Philippine, and Honduran varieties. How do these vary, in terms of workability, finishing, typical cost, etc., etc? I haven't checked out the supplier's stock yet, have only spoken to them on the phone. Haven't worked mahogany before, any input appreciated.

TIA

Dan

161617

[Justin Bukoski]

Honduran or African. African has a wilder grain so if you are looking for little variation in color then stick with Honduran.

[Jeff Monson]

Looks like honduras to me, I like working with it, routes and mills nicely, just a little prone to tearout, light passes with a planer or hand plane. Beutiful when finished and easy to finish also.

[Dan Mitchell]

Honduran or African. African has a wilder grain so if you are looking for little variation in color then stick with Honduran.

Thanks, Justin. I see you're in the Seattle area, I wonder if you're familiar with this supplier http://maps.google.com/maps/place?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=everett+%2Blumber&fb=1&gl=us&hq=lumber&hnear=Everett,+WA&cid=5759368427626584320 ? I've used Crosscuts & Compton in the past, but since I live in Edmonds, they're a bit south for me. Do you have any favorite suppliers in the area?

TIA

Dan

[Dan Mitchell]

Looks like honduras to me, I like working with it, routes and mills nicely, just a little prone to tearout, light passes with a planer or hand plane. Beutiful when finished and easy to finish also.

Jeff - What finish do you recommend? I'm getting pretty good at the woodworking, still not so great on the finishing... :(

[Justin Bukoski]

Dan,

Just about the best wood supplier I've ever found is Edensaw in Port Townsend (I think they have a warehouse in Seattle now too). Great selection and very helpful guys. Maybe not always the best price but usually pretty good and they will give you good advice. They have some wonderful natural edge slabs. They also deliver for free if you order $300 or more from them.

One thing you might want to think about is Alowood http://www.alowood.com/ . Very interesting stuff and something I plan to build with soon.

As far as finish goes, I like to oil Mahogany and then seal it with shellac once the oil dries. Then I usually topcoat with lacquer but you can use a rub on poly. Personally, I don't think the water based finishes do mahogany justice. I put sikkens water poly on a bookcase for my girls and I'm not super pleased with it.

[Frank Drew]

Dan,

Forgetting price for the moment, in order of preference I'd rank good quality Honduras mahogany ahead of African, which is a cousin to what are considered the true mahoganies of the Swietenia family.

Of all the woods that have misappropriated the name Mahogany, Lauan, or Philippine "mahogany", is the most galling, IMO. It bears no relation whatsoever to the real thing; cigar box mahogany is its nickname, and that's its highest calling.

[Dan Mitchell]

Thanks for all the input, I'll definitely check into the Honduras variety.

Dan

[george wilson]

Cigar boxes were mostly made of Spanish cedar,which looks like cheap mahogany with long pores. It is the best wood for classical guitar necks. Was used in racing hulls like the colleges row as it has a high strength to weight ratio.

[Tony Bilello]

I use honduras mahogany quite a bit. It machines easily and takes on a nice red mahogany color with just a clear coat so stain is usually not necessary.
Phillipine Mahogany is actually a cedar. If using red mahogany stain, it will look pretty good but not as good as Honduran.
My limited experience with african mahogany was not very good. In most cases I found it hard and brittle with a tendency of chipping out when routed and difficult to machine.
All things considered, such as stain, unusuable sections, etc. Honduras mahogany will turn out the most economical.

[Peter Quinn]

I'll take honduran in a heart beat for furniture projects or almost anything else where the budget allows. It looks great if you are selective, it machines nicely, and generally ages to an even reddish brown hue I find attractive. When I pull SA mahogany for a project I can almost do so with my eyes closed!

African is such a varied product that I can't universally suggest it if you haven't had a lot of experience with it. I work in a millwork shop and have had tons of experience with it at this point, from making windows and doors to moldings and flooring from it. I can tell you that there is a wide variety of different trees with vastly different working properties sold under the "African mahogany" trade name. Maybe its all the same species, but it sure doesn't behave the same. Some is so close to Honduran, its hard to notice the difference except in price, I am just finishing up an entry way made mostly of African mahogany, and it was a pleasure to mill. Even some very fine bars with 3/32" flats stayed very true and shaped without tearing at all.

Other material can have interlocked grain full of tension, be very unstable, brittle, prone to chipping, tearing and twisting. It can be pale almost like butternut or as dark as sapele verging on IPE. It can be soft like cedar or nearly as hard as maple. So it took me a while to learn the "look" of a good African mahogany board, and the look of a "wild" african board. There are uses for it all, but for some applications you really need a very stable easy milling product. The learning curve in picking better material and the chances that even a well educated guess can turn out badly will certainly add to its actual total cost. So use it, but keep both eyes wide open and buy a bit extra!

Philippine? I have never seen that as lumber, only as underlayment or pallets!. I'm told its garbage and secondary wood at best, but I have never worked it. I'd reject it on grain alone. Almost any domestic species is more attractive to my eyes.

[Dan Mitchell]

Peter - Thanks for the very informative & interesting reply!

Dan

[Dan Karachio]

Does Sapelle fit in here? It is "the other African mahogany", but works better, right?

[Jim King]

True Mahogany grows from the Carribian to Bolivia as does Spanish Cedar.

So called African Mahogany "Khaya" and others sold as African Mahogany have nothing to do with Mahagany but everyone uses Mahogany as a marketing name.

Phillipine Mahogany and Meranti also are falsly named only for marketing purposes. They are not in the Mahogany family.

Spanish Cedar has been the preferred wood for cigar boxes for a couple of hundred years.

[Karl Card]

Does Sapelle fit in here? It is "the other African mahogany", but works better, right?


not sure where it fits into the scheme of woods but I really like the looks of sapelle.

[Peter Quinn]

I think sapelle is an actual member of the mahogany family? It's darker and harder than most SA mahogany and African mahogany. I have found it a bit more difficult to work than mahogany, it cam be less stable and more difficult to keep flat. But it's got beautiful ribbon grain in QS cut and makes an excellent accent against many other species including mahogany. Most of the mahogany plywood I see at work is actually sapelle I'm told.

[Jim King]

This article may help to clarify in peoples minds what is Mahogany and where it is from. Peru is the number one producer in the world of (Swietenia macrophylla). Its trade has been almost stopprd by the enviornmentalists altho 90% of its growing range in the Amazon is not accesable. I guess they need to do something to raise money.
As you can see by this article the Phillipine and African woods marketed as Mahogany are not mentioned meaning that they are not Mahogany.



PRESS RELEASE
CITES trade controls to take effect for mahogany

http://www.cites.org/I/news/mahogany.jpgGeneva, 11 November 2003 – Internationally agreed trade regulations for big-leaf mahogany will enter into force on 15 November. This tropical timber generates over 100 million dollars a year in export sales, making it one of the world’s most valuable forest products.
The controls were adopted one year ago by the Conference of the Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), which has now 164 member States. The neotropical populations of big-leaf mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) will now be listed on CITES Appendix II, which requires that shipments of this timber be accompanied by a CITES export permit.
“Illegal logging and unsustainable export levels are threatening to render big-leaf mahogany commercially extinct in the near future, a trend that has been reflected in recent years by rising prices,” stated CITES Secretary-General Willem Wijnstekers.
( The prices have actually fallen due to this law)“By relying on the CITES permit system, exporters, importers and consumers of mahogany can be confident that they are using only legally and sustainably harvested timber. The new regulations will also benefit local and indigenous communities, which until now have not received their fair share of the income from mahogany sales,” he said.
This is a lie as the Indians made a living cutting Mahogany.Admired for its high quality, beauty and durability, mahogany is made into luxury furniture, boats, expensive panelling, musical instruments and other wood products. One cubic metre of big-leaf mahogany can fetch some USD 1,300 on the international market and one tree alone can produce more than USD 100,000 worth of high-quality furniture. In the year 2000, Latin America exported some 120,000 cubic metres of big-leaf mahogany.
Big-leaf mahogany thrives in dry tropical forests ranging from southern Mexico to the Amazon basin. It can grow to 70 m, with an average height of 30-40 m, and trunks can reach 3.5 m in diameter.
This part is also is pure BS.http://www.cites.org/I/news/mahogany1.jpg (http://www.cites.org/I/news/mahogany_big.jpg)The mahogany range has become fragmented, many populations have declined dramatically and the building of access roads for mahogany lumbering has encouraged broader deforestation. Populations of big-leaf mahogany have declined by over 70% in Central America since 1950. The species is already reported to be commercially extinct in El Salvador, Costa Rica and parts of South America. The other two species of Latin American mahogany – the Cuban mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni) and Honduras mahogany (Swietenia humilis) – are also now commercially extinct. Today, the major natural stands of big-leaf mahogany are in Brazil, Bolivia and Peru. Plantations have been established in Fiji and other countries, but the CITES listing will not apply to them.
The leading importers of big-leaf mahogany are the United States – which alone accounts for some 60% of the entire market – the Dominican Republic, the United Kingdom and Spain. The Appendix-II listing will enable importing nations to better assist export nations with checking the legality of shipments and ensuring that the mahogany trade is fully transparent.
For exporting countries, an Appendix-II listing will provide the controls, information and tools they need to manage their mahogany resources and ensure that trade bans or commercial extinction are not the next step. CITES permits are only issued if Government-appointed Management Authorities can confirm that the timber has been obtained legally and independent Scientific Authorities certify that its harvesting is not detrimental to the survival of the species. CITES Authorities in both the exporting and importing countries are to monitor the shipments and verify the validity of each CITES permit.

[Jim King]

I just noticed that a customer of mine recently posted some info on his blog trying to explain the Mahogany naming mess . This bit of info may help also.

Mahogany: Which one is the real thing? September 12th, 2010
All photos use http://www.sawmillcreek.org/wp-content/themes/default/images/photozoom.png

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mahogany_logs-150x150.jpg (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mahogany_logs.jpg) Mahogany Logs


Any discussion of Mahogany may be complex and confusing because there has been a lot of change in the past few years and the term “mahogany” has been applied to several woods for marketing purposes. There is no botanical connection among these different woods. I will try to keep this short and to the point but there is a lot of information available. Click the heading name for detailed information in the Wood Library.
Today the most widely distributed and used “mahogany” in the marketplace is African mahogany.
African Mahogany, Khaya spp (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/online_show_wood.php?wood=Khaya ivorensis)

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/afmahogany-300x150.jpg (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/afmahogany.jpg) African Mahogany wood grain scan


African Mahogany has been on the US market for a long time but its use dramatically increased after 2003 when South American Mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla was listed in CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora). African Mahogany became the most available and affordable substitute. Today this is the most widely used wood called “mahogany”. It is not related to South American Mahogany but has a similar look and even though it is more brittle it has acceptable working properties.
There are several species of Khaya. The most acceptable as a substitute is K. invorensis. This species makes up most of the African mahogany on the international market. While this is the most desirable species it maybe sold in a mixture with other Khaya species including K. anthotheca , K. grandifoliola , and K. senegalensis. Origin of lumber can sometimes help identify specific Khaya species. This may be valuable information since differences in some properties can be significant. Supplies of African Mahogany lumber are abundant, and it can be found in a wide range of sizes at moderate prices. It is also available in veneer and plywood from many lumber suppliers. African mahogany is frequently used to replace South American mahogany because it is cheaper, easier to obtain, more abundant and can be used for the same applications.
In general this wood works quite easily in all operations, but if the grain is interlocked it may be difficult to surface without tearing .

Here are ther woods that may be named mahogany or marketed as a mahogany substitute:

Sapele, Entandrophragma cylindricum (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/online_show_wood.php?wood=Entandrophragma cylindricum)

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/sapele-150x150.jpg (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/sapele.jpg) Sapele wood grain scan

A much larger African tree and more widely distributed than Khaya. It is a good working timber with a finer grain texture than Khaya. Some wood experts believe Sapele will become the African mahogany of choice in the future.

Sapele features a little more density than Khaya and therefore better working properties. And (arguably) it’s much nicer looking, certainly more consistent in color.

Check out Sapele lumber prices (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/sapele.html)


Sipo, Entandrophragma utile (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/online_show_wood.php?wood=Entandrophragma utile)

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/sipo-150x150.jpg (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/sipo.jpg) Sipo wood grain scan

Another good working wood from Africa but grows more slowly and is more sparsely distributed than Sapele. Sipo is the European favorite. It just hasn’t garnered much popularity in the U.S.; however sipo is a wood that’s worth using in place of mahogany when the price is right.

This, too, gets praise as a nicer alternative to African mahogany (Khaya).

Check out Sipo lumber prices (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/sipo.html)


South American Mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/online_show_wood.php?wood=Swietenia macrophylla)

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mahogany_genuine-150x150.jpg (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mahogany_genuine.jpg) Genuine mahogany wood grain scan

This wood is from Central or South America and may be named Mahogany, Honduras Mahogany, South American Mahogany, American Mahogany or Genuine Mahogany. For the past 200-300 years this species was the choice of furniture makers. Originally stock was harvested from Honduras; however, during the twentieth century Brazil provided most of the material but the name Honduras Mahogany continued to be used. Most current stock comes from Peru or Central America.
Effective Nov 15, 2003 Mahogany came under the international trade restrictions for items listed in CITES Appendix II. Appendix II includes species not necessarily threatened with extinction, but in which trade must be controlled in order to avoid utilization incompatible with their survival. Consequently, additional permits are required to harvest and export the wood, supplies of lumber have decreased and the price has increased dramatically. South American Mahogany will continue to be available but supplies will be limited and prices will be much more than they were just a few years ago.
For more information on CITES go here: Welcome to CITES (http://www.cites.org/).

Genuine Mahogany ranks among the finest cabinetry wood in the world. Its working characteristics are outstanding for all processes, including cutting, shaping, turning, and sanding. The grain is moderately open so filling is required to obtain a glass smooth finish. Since the CITES listing the woodworking community continues to search for a substitute for Swietenia macrophylla but no other wood has the exceptional grain and working properties.

Cuban Mahogany, Swietenia mahagoni (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/online_show_wood.php?wood=Swietenia mahagoni)

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/cuban_mahogany-150x150.jpg (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/cuban_mahogany.jpg) Cuban Mahogany wood grain scan

Early American furniture makers preferred this species. And some modern woodworkers may recall a time when this was the “standard” mahogany.
Today, though, there is no commercial source for this wood but some comes on the market from time to time due to hurricane damage. The supply is short and infrequent because of this

Philippine Mahogany, Shorea spp. (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/online_show_wood.php?wood=Shorea contorta)

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/luan_mahogany-150x150.jpg (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/luan_mahogany.jpg) Philippine / Luan mahogany wood grain scan

This term is not used much anymore but was quite common 50 years ago. This large family of trees produces wood with somewhat of a mahogany look, it is widely distributed throughout the Pacific islands and is inexpensive.
You may know this wood as Meranti or Lauan, as these are the names most often used today.
In general, though, its working characteristics are less than stellar.

Lyptus, a plantation hybrid of Eucalyptus

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lyptus-150x150.jpg (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lyptus.jpg) Lyptus wood grain scan


This species has been developed in South America and is marketed by Weyerhauser as an environmentally friendly alternative mahogany substitute. As a plantation grown wood, the use of Lyptus shifts demand away from old growth forests, which we like to keep around for biodiversity’s sake. The fast growth rate (harvesting can happen in just 15 years) ensures that supply stays high, and costs stay low. The plantation environment also allows for precise control of soil chemistry, tree spacing, and other factors affecting growth, resulting in the highest quantity of quality wood from the smallest space.
Other woods

Santos mahogany, Andiroba mahogany, Mountain mahogany and others, are not related to either Swietenia or Khaya, but are attempts to pickup on the mahogany name or promote a wood as a mahogany substitute. I expect we will see more of this in the future and the confusion will increase.
For your next project consider African Mahogany. It is economical, works well and takes a fine finish. If price is no issue, consider Genuine Mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla, by what ever name it is available; otherwise, consider Sapele or Sipo. Try Lyptus for a unique and sustainable wood. South American Mahogany is best for outdoor applications.
Please tell us about your experience with Mahogany or just add a comment.


5 Responses to “Mahogany: Which one is the real thing?”





http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/ad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536?s=32 Alvaro says:
July 30, 2009 at 11:35 pm (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/?p=296&cpage=1#comment-358)
Keith,
Thanks for such extensive report on Mahogany, and the final outcome is only to be respected and totally true. South American Mahogany ( Swietenia Macrophylla ) is the REAL wood. Over 300 years of preference by most renouned wood workers avail to it.
Every time I have used mahogany have had no troubles at all, whatever was done would end up in a real work of art, for it´s color, touch and general looks.
It is very good to have stopped abusive logging of this fine specie from our forests, which along with Spanish Cedar ( Cedrella odorata) was being logged as if they were the only wood species in the Amazon, contrary to the fact that such rainforest is the habitat for almost 2,500 forest species, of which only 30/35 are actually being used. This fact however, has saved our forest of severe abuses, since some years from today, the rate of logging did not even reach the 1 ( one ) cubic meter per hectare, on account that ONLY high priced lumber was sought after.
Today, Mahogany is not available as it was before, and prices have scalated, but it is important to respect Cites and the Peruvian Government, so that standing stock is allowed to mature, expand for future generations, while big milling companies will have to start some re-forestation ( planting ) if they want to continue offering such nature´s wonder wood, only then they will actually realize the many years it takes nature to produce such fine wood.
With cordial regards
Alvaro Carpio
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http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/ad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536?s=32 Keith Stephens says:
July 31, 2009 at 1:37 pm (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/?p=296&cpage=1#comment-473)
Alvaro, thanks for posting your comments. Are you in South America?
For many years I have supported using lesser known species as a way to add value to the forest and reduce pressure on the more popular species. That is one reason we stock over 100 different species.
While no other wood works quite like South American Mahogany the African species are good alternatives. I have become quite a fan of Lyptus. I have built several projects with Lyptus and we used it for our master bath cabinetry. It is not Mahogany but is a very nice timber with its own look and working characteristics.
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http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/ad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536?s=32 Horst Hohoff says:
August 5, 2009 at 3:40 pm (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/?p=296&cpage=1#comment-1058)
The question was “Which is the real thing?”. And IMO it has not been answered.
According to WIKIPEDIA the real thing is Swietena mahagony, which is here listed under
“Other woods that may be named mahogany or marketed as a mahogany substitute”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swietenia_mahagoni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swietenia_mahagoni)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany)
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http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/1bb84937b073bc33a2265435da04d9ca?s=32&d=http%3A%2F%2F1.gravatar.com%2Favatar%2Fad516503a 11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536%3Fs%3D32&r=G Mark Stephens (http://www.woodworkerssource.com) says:
August 6, 2009 at 12:55 pm (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/?p=296&cpage=1#comment-1060)
There you go Horst! The idea wasn’t so much that our posting would definitively answer the question, but that perhaps one of our readers would point out which one they thought is the “real deal.”
That’s one for Swietenia Macrophylla, and one for Swietena mahagony.
The point here is to show that what we’ve come to love as mahogany has become scarce, expensive, or threatened – and the industry has turned to a number of different species to fill the hole. In your link, I find this interesting: “Mahoganies may refer to the largest group of all Meliacae. the timbers yielded by the fifteen related species of Swietenia, Khaya and Entandrophragma.” That’s reflected here.
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http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/ad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536?s=32 Alvaro says:
August 14, 2009 at 12:55 am (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/?p=296&cpage=1#comment-1079)
I believe that both Swietenias, Mahogany & Macrophyla, are the closets belonging to the same genus, having a common origin, with slight differences possibly on account of land, habitat, etc., but sharing the same continuous forests of the Americas.
We are about to finish an inventory of species located at a 160,000 hectares lot located in Loreto, Peru, alloted to my partner some years from now. It´s been a tough job so far and we will still have lots of work to do in order to have the results in blk & wht. I am sure very nice surprises will appear, and that will allow us to provide a sound sustainable management of that area, including non forest products.
Keith mentions Liptus, and I am starting to investigate a small land we have north of Lima, with 900 HUGE Eucaliptus trees ( Believe they´re E. Saligna ), real old growth plantation trees that will soon be lacking of space on account of their sizes. I have read that old/mature Eucaliptus trees usually yield quality lumber, and will have a chance to verify such statement in a near future.
Finally, we are all waiting to see what kind of wood species will be arriving to your headquarters soon, direct from Iquitos, via the Amazon river. Congratulations !!
Cordial regards to all wood-lovers
Alvaro
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