Orion blades better then Freud?

[keith micinski]

I just came back from a new blade sharpening place with my Freud 12" Ultimate cutoff and he was really down on Freud blades. He said that they were an overpriced middle of the road blade and for just a little more money up front I could get a much better longer lasting blade that full production industry uses. I live near Elkhart Indiana which for some reason is the mobile home capitol of the world. He services all of the factories and they run there shops 3 shifts 7 days a week. He is telling my they wouldn't even let a Freud blade through the door because it wouldn't be worth the time to put it on. Now I know he is trying to sell me one of his blades but at the same time 20 years experience should count for something. These Orion blades are made by a company called Skarpaz. He is saying the steel that they use to make the bodies is significantly better. He also says the carbide they use is of a higher quality, is thicker, will last longer, take more sharpening and stand up to more abuse. Has anyone ever heard of these blades before and what are your guys opinions? I have been unhappy with Freud blades chipping recently and more importantly flexing and warping. I just bought a new Freud Ripping blade for 54 and he is telling me has a triple cut Orion blade that looks exactly like a glue line rip blade for 75. For 20 dollars more he is telling me that the Orion should last way longer and except more sharpening then the Freud. I kind of want to try it but would like to do some more research first. would love to hear what you guys think and if any one has any experience with these blades.

[Will Overton]

Not knocking the Orion blades as I've never even heard of them. But when some says that another well established, respected brand, isn't worth putting on a saw (even repeating from someone else), I'd say;

"Run Forrest, Run ..."

[Dan Hintz]

My first question would be "How do you know their product is better?" Just because the marketing materials says they use a better steel (than what?), how do you know? Same with the carbide. Talk is cheap.

[keith micinski]

Well this guyhas been sharpening all of these blades for these manufacturers for 20 years so he is saying his real work experience tells him the blades are much better. I agree with Will about him downgrading Freud so much since it is a hobbyist standard. I am wondering if he wasn't knocking Freud as much as saying they just aren't as good compared to the Orion. He wasn't saying the Freud was terrible but he was saying there are definite upgrades out there and this caught me off gaurs a little since I always considered Freud as number 1 or 2 behind Forrest. He was also looking at it from a manufacturers standpoint to and I am definitely not a high production woodworker.

[Lee Schierer]

I googled Skarpaz and found: They incorporated in 1985. Their address is 200 VALLEY DRIVE SUITE 34 BRISBANE, CA 94005, which appears from Google maps satellite to be a low cost office space with no sign of a production facility. It appears to be an office for an off shore manufacturer. "Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $2.5 to 5 million and employs a staff of approximately 1 to 4." Their home page has surprisingly little about the company or its history. I also didn't see any claim as to where the blades are manufactured. C-3 carbide is a fairly common specification, "high quality nickel alloy tool steel" is a pretty generic specification and "Each blade is pressure roll tensioned to run true at speed." is pretty common.

I think for now I will hang onto my Freud blades which have worked very well for my needs.

I emailed and asked for a price list so we will see if they respond.

[Will Overton]

He was also looking at it from a manufacturers standpoint ...

Freud has a line of blades for them also.

http://www.freudtools.com/t-com-cat.aspx

[Alan Schwabacher]

Freud makes a range of blades, and the less expensive ones definitely have less carbide so they can take fewer sharpenings. His experience may be with those blades, so it's possible he is telling the truth based on his experience, but it could be deceptive in this case.

There are many other reputable brands of saw blades used industrially, including FS Tool, Tenryu, and others. You might want to browse the blades offered by www.carbide.com (http://www.carbide.com) .

[scott spencer]

Terms like "better" & "best" are subjective, and are dependent on how you define the term. How you definite the term depends largely on your needs of a given blade and how it's used (what equipment, etc). Production needs are very different from the needs of a hobbyist. It's important that industrial blades cut reasonably well for a very long time, for sessions that are hours at a time...as a hobbyist, I want a very good cut for a reasonably long time from my blades, and tend to use them for short sessions. There are just too many variables in play for your sharpener's claim to be credible. If he stands to profit from that claim, I'd give it even less credibility.

I've had excellent results from a number of blades including Freud, Infinity, Forrest, Tenryu, CMT, Amana, Delta, DeWalt, Leitz, Ridge Carbide. Many offer more than one line that are intended for different applications, and are sold at different price points. It's important to compare apples to apples, and to choose the right blade for the job. Even the cheapest Freud Diablo and Freud Avanti blades are good quality by most people's standards (mine included) and are definitely worth a resharpening...their Industrial line will withstand many sharpenings. IIRC, I've tried in the range of 60 different blades...at least 8 of those were different Freud models, and have been pleased with all of them....I'd rate the top Freud blades to be roughly on par with any of the best blades mentioned above...which means if your sharpener is correct, those are all junk too....and I strongly disagree with him.

Ask if he's willing to give you a full refund if his Orion blade doesn't doesn't meet your expectations.

[Van Huskey]

He is telling my they wouldn't even let a Freud blade through the door because it wouldn't be worth the time to put it on.


That statement alone would be enough for me, I would be done.

One thing I have found about the myriad industrial blades from names most of us have never heard of is they are often designed for a VERY specific task. Many are optimized for a single type of cut in a single material, this does not mean they can't do a lot of other cuts very well and serve a hobbyist or non-production shop well in general use BUT this often leads people who work with them or around the to see them as much better since if you put a more general use blade from Frued or Forrest in its place it would not perform as well, but the Freud and Forrest blades might perform better overall when considering all the cuts a hobbyist might make with one blade.

We as hobbyists often ask blades to do too much. An example most hobbyists try to avoid the expense of a dedicated rip blade but even when you get one you have to remember that even in the range of rips most flatworkers make you would probably be better served with THREE rip blades! This is not resonable economically for most hobbyists so we ask our dedicated rip blade to do things it is not optimized for and may feel it is lacking. In a (properly run) production environment this would not happen and the blade gives better results and may well last longer doing that one job day in and day out.

In the end you could always try the blade. I have three industrial blades I want to try but just haven't gotten around to them.

[John Baum]

Last night I read a thread about 7.25" (SkilSaw) plywood blades:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=99735

It discusses Freud and Diablo interchangeably. A bit of searching taught me that there are two separate websites:

http://www.freudtools.com/t-about.aspx

and

http://www.diablotools.com/about.html

A bit of searching taught me that there are big differences in the price of a similar sized blade.

My experience in a very different industry taught me that sometimes the exact same product, from the same production line, is marketed at more than one price point under different names and packaging. The product in question was a pet flea collar. When I asked marketing I was told that for some pet owners, a discount store product was not good enough for Fido, they needed the much more expensive product supplied by their vet. There was a mid-priced product, too, that sold through hardware stores and general retail outlets.

Has anyone done a thorough comparison of a Freud Industrial blade with the comparable Diablo blade?

If we are talking about Freud's products, we need to be specific about which one.

For what it is worth, in my experience, Freud's very thin zig-zag anti-vibration feature tends to fill with gum. Once it is filled, it no longer works and it is very hard to clean out.

John

[Rob Holcomb]

I would trust the opinions of fellow creekers or other woodworkers before I would pay any attention to someone trying to sell me a blade. The seller of a product has a vested interest while users of a product simply like it or don't like it and base their opinions on their personal experiences. A much better way to make a decision in my opinion

[David Weaver]

I would trust the opinions of fellow creekers or other woodworkers before I would pay any attention to someone trying to sell me a blade.

ditto that.

I would check online for the skarpaz blades, too, and see how close the guy is to online pricing. If it's one of those deals where you find it a lot cheaper online, I'd wonder if he was just trying to create a profit stream.

I wouldn't normally be that hard on a salesperson because it's easy to learn a lot about the product you're selling and feel that it's better than the competition. However, slamming another brand without giving a technical explanation of why is usually a sign to me that someone's jiggling my chain a little and going through their normal sales routine.

[keith micinski]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I tend to agree with a lot of what you guys say. I also know that my own personal experience with Freud has left me wanting a little more. I might also be jaded a little in the fact that I went through the trouble of searching for a Freud authorized sharpener in my area and when I found him he basically ruined my glue line rip blade. I also feel that while Freud may very well be a top notch blade the reason that 90% of us have them is because there marketing department have done an amazing job getting these blades in every single store you can think of. In my experience Quantity almost always leads to lower quality.

[glenn bradley]

We're all entitled to our opinions. Freuds have always served me well so I have a different opinion. Many industries run Freud products 24x7. Do you really think we hobbyists keep them afloat :)? I can't knock a guy for trying to make a buck but when someone is so adamant about something that so many hold a different opinion on, I have to pause and think . . .

[David Helm]

I've been using Systematic blades for decades. It's all I use on table saw and mitre saw. I also always use full thickness blades rather than thin kerf. The only Freud I ever used left me somewhat dissatisfied. I get my Systematics from my local saw shop. I've been friends with the owner for 35 years and know he would not steer me wrong about blades. Besides, his wife knows more about the industry than he does, and he knows a lot.

I've never heard of Orion blades. At $75 I would call them a middle of the road blade pricewise.

[Gene Howe]

Freud makes some good blades. I own a few and they have given me satisfactory service. That being said, there are many others, at near the same price, that are superior in their cut and length of time between sharpenings.
In fact, I finally had to pitch my favorite rip blade because it had been sharpened 4 times and I didn't trust it for another try. It was an Oldham, bought at Menards almost 8 years ago. So, there are jewels out there that can be had for cheap. then again, I may have found the only Oldham in the world that was worth a crap. I don't know.
I'm slowly moving to Tenryu blades and just chucking the rest as they get dull.
I work a lot with mesquite and Boise d' arc and the Tenryu stands up to that abuse where the Freuds .....well, not so well.

[Van Huskey]

Last night I read a thread about 7.25" (SkilSaw) plywood blades:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=99735

It discusses Freud and Diablo interchangeably. A bit of searching taught me that there are two separate websites:

http://www.freudtools.com/t-about.aspx

and

http://www.diablotools.com/about.html

A bit of searching taught me that there are big differences in the price of a similar sized blade.

My experience in a very different industry taught me that sometimes the exact same product, from the same production line, is marketed at more than one price point under different names and packaging. The product in question was a pet flea collar. When I asked marketing I was told that for some pet owners, a discount store product was not good enough for Fido, they needed the much more expensive product supplied by their vet. There was a mid-priced product, too, that sold through hardware stores and general retail outlets.

Has anyone done a thorough comparison of a Freud Industrial blade with the comparable Diablo blade?

If we are talking about Freud's products, we need to be specific about which one.

For what it is worth, in my experience, Freud's very thin zig-zag anti-vibration feature tends to fill with gum. Once it is filled, it no longer works and it is very hard to clean out.

John


First the arguably better laser cut anti-vibe tech on a lot of high end blades require more frequent cleaning.

Second, on Diablo vs Industrial, look at the grind under magnification prefereably 30X and mic the carbide tips, that will give you the answer BUT whether the Industrial (Or Forrest, Tenryu, Infinity etc) is past YOUR point of diminishing returns only you can answer.

[Phil Thien]

Their Orion line looks very similar to Amana.

[scott spencer]

For what it is worth, in my experience, Freud's very thin zig-zag anti-vibration feature tends to fill with gum. Once it is filled, it no longer works and it is very hard to clean out.

John

Aren't those anti-vibration slots supposed to be intentionally filled with a silicon or some flexible material?

http://freudtools.com/images/LU86RMain.jpg

[Steve Rowe]

I owned a Skarpaz blade that my sharpener sold me 15 years ago. It was a very good quality blade, made a nice cut, and was reasonably priced. As I recall, it did have thick carbide tips which was why my sharpener recommended it. He offered a money back guarantee in case I was not happy with it. I sold the blade with the Unisaw about 6 years ago.

Now my favorite blade is the Tenyru. Forrest and Leuco come in a close second.

[Van Huskey]

The big ones in the center are, the little ones that start in the gullets are not. I have noticed when the little ones get full of hardened pitch the blade will "ring" more but it can be avoided by cleaning after pitchy wood.


Aren't those anti-vibration slots supposed to be intentionally filled with a silicon or some flexible material?

http://freudtools.com/images/LU86RMain.jpg

[keith micinski]

The other thing this sharpener said was that the Freud's have all of the anti vibration slots and other cuts because they are an inferior quality steel and that the Orion's don't need any of that. I do remember now that he said the Skarpaz line was part of anther company until a few years ago and then they split from them.

[Brian Gumpper]

Most saw shops don't sell saw blades that most hobbiests are familier with, that is why nobody knows Sharpaz. Other well known saw shop lines are Everlast, FS Tool, Tenryu, Systematic maybe a Leuco, Gudho or Leitz and Amana every now and again. I probably missed a few.

Nothing wrong with a Freud blade but that guy is right about one thing, you don't usually see red blades in an industrial shop just like you don't usually see a Sharpaz blade in a hobbiest shop. I can tell you who sells more blades though.

[Phil Thien]

I can tell you who sells more blades though.

Please go right ahead, because it isn't clear to me from your post.

[keith micinski]

Everlast was the company that the sharpener said Skarpaz broke away from.

[Eiji Fuller]

I have Everlast, Skarpaz, Freud, Forrest, and Leitz blades. I like the Everlast the best then Leitz, then freud/forrest and the Skarpaz the least.

Another thing is that I would much rather have a high performing blade that I can only get resharpened 4 times vs a lower performing blade that I can get resharpened 10 times.

I also dont rely on getting glue up quality cuts from any machine other than my jointer. Sure you can glue up from cuts on the table saw but you will see the glue joint. If im going to joint anyway Im going to be looking for ease of cut and feed rate and not so much on a perfect surface.

For solid wood Id much rather rip on the BS vs the TableSaw. It's much faster and easier to push the wood thru the BS blade than on a Tablesaw. Iv got a WoodMaster CT 2TPI blade on my Felder BS and the cut quality is unbelievable just as good as my Lietz rip blade on the TS and take only about 1/3 of the kerf the tablesaw would make.

[Brian Gumpper]

Please go right ahead, because it isn't clear to me from your post.

That would be Freud.

[Jeff Duncan]

My opinion differs a bit from the majority here, in that as a pro WW I tend to take advice given by my suppliers more readily than advice given by mostly hobbiests on an online forum. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the forum, lots of good stuff here. But if I want advice on a blade do I trust my sharpener who works all day every day on saw blades. Or a handful of well intentioned people who may not use their table saws more than a few times a week?
As a point of reference FWIW, my sharpener, (a larger business with a decent sized crew), also does not carry Freud and considers them a middle of the road blade. I use them and find them OK. Haven't tried the blades your guy carries though.
good luck,
JeffD

[Dan Hintz]

My questions is, do those blade sharpeners actually use a wide range of blades, or do they just sharpen? If all they do is sharpen, I would take any advice they have on the lifetime or ability of a blade to do what it says with a huge grain of salt.

[Tom Rick]

My opinion differs a bit from the majority here, in that as a pro WW I tend to take advice given by my suppliers more readily than advice given by mostly hobbiests on an online forum. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the forum, lots of good stuff here. But if I want advice on a blade do I trust my sharpener who works all day every day on saw blades. Or a handful of well intentioned people who may not use their table saws more than a few times a week?



Guys- I think he is knocking the forum... Just kidding.

A pro WW as well though the way I see it is my supplier is a big fan of what he has on the shelf.
A case in point- the CMT blades filling his shelves are the "best thing on the market"- anyone running them?

I get a lot of millage out of the experiences from the members here and some good heads up on gear I would never have heard about other wise.
One point I could add- a decent saw pays higher dividends for any blade running on it. My old 40's uni gives good service on the thin Freuds I am running.
I try to stay with thin rippers to save a bit of the teak I use almost exclusively.
Anyone got a tip on a other decent thin kerf rip blades?

[Dan Hintz]

Guys- I think he is knocking the forum...
<in best Monty Python voice> He's a witch! Burn him!

[David Cramer]

Friends of mine have a shop that is use 5 days a week, but not as busy as they were before the big economic dive, meaning not as many cuts with their blades.

But with that said, they've had their Skarpaz blade for a long time. It gets picked up and sharpened every other week. I will be seeing them later today and ask them exactly how long they've had that blade for and approximately how many sharpenings. They cut laminate, particleboard, solid wood, plywood, some solid surface, among other materials. Honestly, in the past they have raved about the blade, but I will check back to see if that still holds true.

If you have no experience with something, eventually you gotta believe someone is telling you the truth:).

David

[Don Alexander]

personally i think theres a huge tendency to get all wrapped up in brands and a lamentable tendency to be more interested in what brand name is on things than in how well the product works.

lets face it, there are numerous types of blades out there and many companies making/selling those numerous types of blades at numerous price points. there is a reason why many different types of blade are made
rip blades are made for ripping and crosscut blades are made for crosscutting etc. seems simple enough , however the line gets blurred by "combo" blades and blades made specifically for cutting certain materials or for specific type of cuts i.e. glue line rip blades for example.

if you use a blade that is made specifically for the type of cut you are making , unless the blade is complete garbage, you will get a better cut than you would with a comparable quality blade of some other type .
to me the value of a brand name is quick easy recognition of a known quantity at a known price point; i use alot of Freud blades , why? because experience tells me that i can readily and reasonably get a wide variety of good quality blades (and router bits); quality is good , choice of specific blades is good, local availability is good, price is reasonable for what i get out of it. are there other blades out there that are as good or better? probably, almost certainly. would i use those if they were readily available at a reasonable price? ABSOLUTELY
don't get caught up in brand so much as using the appropriate type blade for the task , don't expect 1 single blade to be perfect on all tpyes of cuts, and don't be surprised when some folks still worry about what brand is on the blade :D

just my 2 cents for what its worth