what's so bad about bleeding stain?

[Michael MacDonald]

I put some heavily pigmented oil stain on red oak a week ago... let it dry for about four days. was dry to the touch and did not bleed to hand, but when I apply varnish, the stain bleeds... any reason I should care? My thought is that the varnish will cure, and the next coat will not see the bleeding... and no one will suffer. I don't worry too much about the varnish in the can getting tainted with color because it is a quart can and half empty at that--I will use the last on this project... anything here I should be worried about?

[Prashun Patel]

I'm a little confused. When you say 'bleeds', do you mean that the stain is lifting off a little and staining your varnish applicator (rag/brush). Or do you mean that you get little pinpoints of stain drops on top of the pores?

You should note that red oak will absorb stain or oil, and will then spit it back out a little from the pores as it dries. You can see this well by flooding stain or danish oil on some red oak, wiping it off until you think it's dry, then putting the piece out in sun at more than 80 degrees for 30 minutes.

If you topcoat before this 'bleedback' has happened, you can blister your topcoat.

If your applicator is getting a little stained yr stain is not dry yet. This might lead to future bleedback, which can compromise yr topcoat.

If your topcoats are very thin - like 1# shellac, then it's not a problem (except for the potential of the coloring moving around) because the undercoat can dry through thinner topcoats. But on thicker products like varnish, I'd be wary.

(unsolicited): this is actually one of the reason I like dyes; if sealed with shellac (unlike pigment stain's integral varnish-like sealer), it dries faster --within hours, instead of a day.

[Michael MacDonald]

good question: it was not bleeding out of pores. I think the stain was dry. The solvent of the varnish (Pratt and Lambert 38) was pulling out some of the stain pigment. The Bob Flexner book finshing book indicates that a thin coat of de-waxed shellac on top of the stain would solve this... then put the varnish on top.

But I think Flexner's main point was this technique can be used to avoid any spotting or streaking resulting from the stain bleeding into the varnish... if I don't have spotting or streaking (I hope... haven't looked at it yet today), then I can't image in there is any reason to strip and start over... so I would want to go with what I have. That is, assuming I am right and this was not bleedback out of the pores.

as far as dyes.. yes, that is an advantage. I haven't started to explore the world of dyes yet, but I should. I have this gallon of stain that I bought for something else, and I was hoping to get some value out of it... this is a utility door I am finishing, so not fine furniture... I was trying out the technique of cutting raised panels on the table saw... I want to make these mistakes now so I don't do it on something important.

[Prashun Patel]

There is a varnish-like binder in the stain that - once dry - will prevent the stain from lifting into the topcoat - even if the topcoat and your stain are both oilbased. Once dry, it won't redissolve.

The fact that it's lifting means it's not dry - even if it doesn't lift out enough for you to bother you aesthetically. This can prevent top coats from drying properly. So - my NONPROFESSIONAL advice is that if you're brushing on thick topcoats, you should wait.

Putting shellac on will protect the intermingling of the coats, but it won't help the stain to dry - which is what it needs to do.

That being said, I did a red oak bench 4 years ago (not knowing anything) with Minwax red mahogany stain - two coats flooded and hardly wiped off, then topped with 3 thick brushed on coats of Minwax poly. I had lots of lifting in the brush, but not enough that it made me concerned. I never had problems with it.

[Michael MacDonald]

I thought the same--about how once dry, the stain would not re-dissolve--but I was surprised that after four days the stain would not be dry... my working environment has not changed... not particularly humid or cool... I rubbed it with a cloth prior to varnish and didn't get anything out.

I thought I remembered the flexner book admitting that a varnish solvent (I assume mineral spirits) might redissolve a stain... one thing about this stain was that it started as red mahogany, and the paint store added a bunch more pigment to it... a lot a lot a lot. so I thought that an overload of pigment might have something to do with it too...

the key things for me is that it doesn't look too bad, and that I don't have to revisit it... so I think I will forge ahead. thanks for your insight.

[Pete McMahon]

the paint store added a bunch more pigment to it... a lot a lot a lot.

Therein lies your problem. Stains have a balanced ratio of binder, pigment and solvent. When just pigment alone is added the balance is upset. Those pigments, by themselves, contain no siccatives or dryers. In other words if you used just the pigment as a paint, it would not dry.
To get such a dense color a better technique would be to apply a strong dye first, then stain. If you wanted even more depth of color, you could seal the stain, glaze and add a toner if desired.

[Steve Schoene]

I think Pete has nailed it. Also, it sounds like you may not have wiped off excess stain after application. Most of that excess pigment should have been wiped away when you wiped down the stain. Trying to get a darker color by not thporoughly wiping off the excess isn't going to be successful since the binder in the stain is so weak.

[Michael MacDonald]

all that sounds right... I had better just start to get into dyes... bummer since I have a cabinet full of stains I have purchased over the last few years.

this weekend, I stained the rails and stiles just as I did with the panels, and after only one day, I found that the parts were dry to the touch... rather than go right to the varnish, I put on a thin layer of dewaxed shellac--not sure what cut, but it was zinnser's sanding sealer right out of the can.

I found that the stain did not come off on the brush, so the flexner advice worked so far. I think the alcohol solvent is just less likely to pull off loosely-bound pigment particles than the MS/kerosene solvent in the varnish.

I plan on putting a coat of varnish on tonight... not sure if I should sand it or not. maybe just a cursory rub with a 400-grit?